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Post by mrcoke on Aug 18, 2021 8:12:42 GMT
Looks like another piece of Brexit argument is coming apart at the seams: Brexit arguments from this thread, 2017-2020:(Sept 2017) The EU keeps the peace does it? I wonder why we and all those other countries waste money on NATO then... (Feb 2018) Nato has kept the peace and not the EU ….. (Nov 2018) In a nutshell, NATO is a treaty organisation set up for the mutual protection of its members which has helped maintain peace in Europe and much of the rest of the world since just after the second world war…… (Nov 2018) I don't feel the world is as dangerous as the media makes out (I also don't think its all sunshine and happiness). I think it's fine as it is. So is NATO. (Dec 2018) I would prefer the military protection of NATO alliance over the E.U. any day of the week. (Jan 2019) The EU hasn’t kept the peace. NATO has Jan 2019) (April 2019) We have NATO as a peace-keeping body. Fast forward to August 17th 2021, in the aftermath of recent events in Afghanistan(Gavin Barwell), former chief of staff to Theresa May, said it was “time to wake up and smell the coffee” that Democrats and Republicans no longer believe “the US should be the world’s policeman”. He added: “The lesson for Europeans is clear. Whoever is president, the US is unlikely to offer the same support that it used to in parts of the world where its vital interests are not involved. Europeans are going to have to develop the capability to intervene without US support. That’s not going to be cheap. And the EU and Britain are going to have to work out how to cooperate on this because we face the same threats.” Letter in Daily Telegraph today:The withdrawal from Afghanistan is not a military defeat; it is an abject political surrender by President Biden. America is back in the malaise of isolationism, and this has implications for its leadership of the free world (if that exists any more). How is Nato to be taken seriously now? And how are we to face an ascendant China, or growing belligerence from Russia and Iran? I am at a loss with your post. One of the objectives of starting the process of European union in the 1950s was to prevent another world war and prevent future aggression between European countries that led to world wars. A principle I and others like you and Churchill strongly supported. Is Barwell actually suggesting the EU should now replace the USA as a world policing force? He says it is not going to be cheap, does that mean a huge military capability? Can we actually look forward to the day when the countries that produced Hitler, Napoleon, and Mussolini collectively act as a police force. There are experts in the Balkans at ethnic cleansing.
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Post by 4372 on Aug 18, 2021 8:25:40 GMT
Looks like another piece of Brexit argument is coming apart at the seams: Brexit arguments from this thread, 2017-2020:(Sept 2017) The EU keeps the peace does it? I wonder why we and all those other countries waste money on NATO then... (Feb 2018) Nato has kept the peace and not the EU ….. (Nov 2018) In a nutshell, NATO is a treaty organisation set up for the mutual protection of its members which has helped maintain peace in Europe and much of the rest of the world since just after the second world war…… (Nov 2018) I don't feel the world is as dangerous as the media makes out (I also don't think its all sunshine and happiness). I think it's fine as it is. So is NATO. (Dec 2018) I would prefer the military protection of NATO alliance over the E.U. any day of the week. (Jan 2019) The EU hasn’t kept the peace. NATO has Jan 2019) (April 2019) We have NATO as a peace-keeping body. Fast forward to August 17th 2021, in the aftermath of recent events in Afghanistan(Gavin Barwell), former chief of staff to Theresa May, said it was “time to wake up and smell the coffee” that Democrats and Republicans no longer believe “the US should be the world’s policeman”. He added: “The lesson for Europeans is clear. Whoever is president, the US is unlikely to offer the same support that it used to in parts of the world where its vital interests are not involved. Europeans are going to have to develop the capability to intervene without US support. That’s not going to be cheap. And the EU and Britain are going to have to work out how to cooperate on this because we face the same threats.” Letter in Daily Telegraph today:The withdrawal from Afghanistan is not a military defeat; it is an abject political surrender by President Biden. America is back in the malaise of isolationism, and this has implications for its leadership of the free world (if that exists any more). How is Nato to be taken seriously now? And how are we to face an ascendant China, or growing belligerence from Russia and Iran? I am at a loss with your post. One of the objectives of starting the process of European union in the 1950s was to prevent another world war and prevent future aggression between European countries that led to world wars. A principle I and others like you and Churchill strongly supported. Is Barwell actually suggesting the EU should now replace the USA as a world policing force? He says it is not going to be cheap, does that mean a huge military capability? Can we actually look forward to the day when the countries that produced Hitler, Napoleon, and Mussolini collectively act as a police force. There are experts in the Balkans at ethnic cleansing. Not a problem, I am at a loss with the thoughtless concept of Brexit. I am pointing out that, during the Brexit debate on this thread, several posters dismissed the idea of the EU countries working together to keep the peace, and claimed that peace-keeping was the responsibility of NATO. Now it looks like America is returning to isolationism, and for NATO to work most effectively it has always needed American leadership and resources. NATO looks like it might as well fold. This was always a possible scenario.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 28, 2021 19:02:30 GMT
DT: "Food industry plea for EU work visas as vacancies hit half a million"
Food and drink producers are calling for temporary visas to let European workers fill some of the half a million vacancies in their sector caused by Brexit and the pandemic. In a cross-industry report, business leaders demand urgent action to ensure the UK's food supply chain can weather disruption in the coming months. Nick Allen, chief executive of British Meat Processors Association, said the meat industry had been pushed into a full blown crisis by new immigration rules. Post Brexit changes and the impacts of Covid have left Britain running low on the drivers, fruit pickers and abbatoir workers, many from Europe."
Oops.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 28, 2021 20:07:44 GMT
DT: "Food industry plea for EU work visas as vacancies hit half a million" Food and drink producers are calling for temporary visas to let European workers fill some of the half a million vacancies in their sector caused by Brexit and the pandemic. In a cross-industry report, business leaders demand urgent action to ensure the UK's food supply chain can weather disruption in the coming months. Nick Allen, chief executive of British Meat Processors Association, said the meat industry had been pushed into a full blown crisis by new immigration rules. Post Brexit changes and the impacts of Covid have left Britain running low on the drivers, fruit pickers and abbatoir workers, many from Europe." Oops. Food industry supposedly has half a million vacancies. There are shortages of lorry drivers, I've seen 100,000 quoted. The government refuses to relax visa rules: news.sky.com/story/brexit-businesses-frustrated-as-government-rejects-plea-to-loosen-visa-rules-for-lorry-drivers-amid-supply-chain-crisis-12392986How many EU workers do you believe have left the country? How many non EU workers do you believe have left the country? Do you think the government should allow foreign workers in when people are paid not to work (furloughed) and unemployment benefit?
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Post by heworksardtho on Aug 28, 2021 20:09:49 GMT
DT: "Food industry plea for EU work visas as vacancies hit half a million" Food and drink producers are calling for temporary visas to let European workers fill some of the half a million vacancies in their sector caused by Brexit and the pandemic. In a cross-industry report, business leaders demand urgent action to ensure the UK's food supply chain can weather disruption in the coming months. Nick Allen, chief executive of British Meat Processors Association, said the meat industry had been pushed into a full blown crisis by new immigration rules. Post Brexit changes and the impacts of Covid have left Britain running low on the drivers, fruit pickers and abbatoir workers, many from Europe." Oops. Food industry supposedly has half a million vacancies. There are shortages of lorry drivers, I've seen 100,000 quoted. The government refuses to relax visa rules: news.sky.com/story/brexit-businesses-frustrated-as-government-rejects-plea-to-loosen-visa-rules-for-lorry-drivers-amid-supply-chain-crisis-12392986How many EU workers do you believe have left the country? How many non EU workers do you believe have left the country? Not enough 😉
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 29, 2021 10:05:09 GMT
DT: "Food industry plea for EU work visas as vacancies hit half a million" Food and drink producers are calling for temporary visas to let European workers fill some of the half a million vacancies in their sector caused by Brexit and the pandemic. In a cross-industry report, business leaders demand urgent action to ensure the UK's food supply chain can weather disruption in the coming months. Nick Allen, chief executive of British Meat Processors Association, said the meat industry had been pushed into a full blown crisis by new immigration rules. Post Brexit changes and the impacts of Covid have left Britain running low on the drivers, fruit pickers and abbatoir workers, many from Europe." Oops. Food industry supposedly has half a million vacancies. There are shortages of lorry drivers, I've seen 100,000 quoted. The government refuses to relax visa rules: news.sky.com/story/brexit-businesses-frustrated-as-government-rejects-plea-to-loosen-visa-rules-for-lorry-drivers-amid-supply-chain-crisis-12392986How many EU workers do you believe have left the country? How many non EU workers do you believe have left the country? Do you think the government should allow foreign workers in when people are paid not to work (furloughed) and unemployment benefit? Interesting to see Unite come up with a 6 point plan to address the current HGV driver shortage… improve pay and conditions. tackle the lack of diversity in the industry. simplify driving hours’ rules. make better parking and facilities a priority. toughen up sanctions for employers denying drivers access to basic facilities. shift the cost of accreditation from drivers to employers. This all seems pretty reasonable stuff. I note it doesn’t call for any changes in visas. In this they are in agreement with the Government.
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Post by tuum on Aug 29, 2021 13:54:26 GMT
100,000 drivers. 20,000 Euro drivers going home (assumption is Brexit driven but no evidence to support) 30,000 (I think but may be 40k) - unable to test and certify new drivers 50,000 - can't remember if there was a reason for the 50k but some people think some is due to low pay and poor conditions.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2021 16:54:02 GMT
Interesting to see Unite come up with a 6 point plan to address the current HGV driver shortage… improve pay and conditions. tackle the lack of diversity in the industry. simplify driving hours’ rules. make better parking and facilities a priority. toughen up sanctions for employers denying drivers access to basic facilities. shift the cost of accreditation from drivers to employers. This all seems pretty reasonable stuff. I note it doesn’t call for any changes in visas. In this they are in agreement with the Government. Unite unlikely to be calling for visa changes. Nothing in it for them as temporary workers from outside the UK generally don't become union members
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2021 18:11:52 GMT
DT: "Food industry plea for EU work visas as vacancies hit half a million" Food and drink producers are calling for temporary visas to let European workers fill some of the half a million vacancies in their sector caused by Brexit and the pandemic. In a cross-industry report, business leaders demand urgent action to ensure the UK's food supply chain can weather disruption in the coming months. Nick Allen, chief executive of British Meat Processors Association, said the meat industry had been pushed into a full blown crisis by new immigration rules. Post Brexit changes and the impacts of Covid have left Britain running low on the drivers, fruit pickers and abbatoir workers, many from Europe." Oops. Food industry supposedly has half a million vacancies. There are shortages of lorry drivers, I've seen 100,000 quoted. The government refuses to relax visa rules: news.sky.com/story/brexit-businesses-frustrated-as-government-rejects-plea-to-loosen-visa-rules-for-lorry-drivers-amid-supply-chain-crisis-12392986How many EU workers do you believe have left the country? How many non EU workers do you believe have left the country? Do you think the government should allow foreign workers in when people are paid not to work (furloughed) and unemployment benefit? www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/29/business-group-says-investing-in-uk-workers-wont-solve-labour-crisis
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Post by Linx on Aug 29, 2021 18:32:40 GMT
100,000 drivers. 20,000 Euro drivers going home (assumption is Brexit driven but no evidence to support) 30,000 (I think but may be 40k) - unable to test and certify new drivers 50,000 - can't remember if there was a reason for the 50k but some people think some is due to low pay and poor conditions. I think that 50,000 figure is taken up by the number of HGV drivers in their fifties who were put off by new regulations (and costs) about health and competency tests, plus a raft of new paperwork. They have basically taken early retirement in their droves or lent their skills to Hermes and other local delivery companies. What I find ironic about this post Brexit paradise is that it was perceptions about European red tape that upset so many who voted for it. They totally forgot that we’re pretty good on this side of the channel at red tape, in fact, so good that we can invent all outs of ways of creating it, as has been proved in nearly every aspect of life.
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Post by numpty40 on Aug 29, 2021 21:32:33 GMT
100,000 drivers. 20,000 Euro drivers going home (assumption is Brexit driven but no evidence to support) 30,000 (I think but may be 40k) - unable to test and certify new drivers 50,000 - can't remember if there was a reason for the 50k but some people think some is due to low pay and poor conditions. I think that 50,000 figure is taken up by the number of HGV drivers in their fifties who were put off by new regulations (and costs) about health and competency tests, plus a raft of new paperwork. They have basically taken early retirement in their droves or lent their skills to Hermes and other local delivery companies. What I find ironic about this post Brexit paradise is that it was perceptions about European red tape that upset so many who voted for it. They totally forgot that we’re pretty good on this side of the channel at red tape, in fact, so good that we can invent all outs of ways of creating it, as has been proved in nearly every aspect of life. God forbid that HGV drivers have to pass competence tests before getting behind the wheel of a 44 tonne truck.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 29, 2021 22:41:21 GMT
I have abstracted this from an article by the National Driving Centre, which includes additional reasons for the shortage of lorry drivers, namely insurance cost of young drivers and the DVLA strike slowing the processing of new drivers.: "The UK has trundled along with a driver shortage for years. Before Coronavirus the estimated number ......... was 60,000................. the deficit of drivers is now up to an eye watering 100,000. "Coronavirus. The Driving Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) usually has 43,000 new drivers passing their HGV tests each year to infill the hole left by those retiring.... But due to the 8 months where not a single test outside of critical workers was undertaken, this has resulted in only 15,000 HGV test passes. More than 27,000+ new drivers that never made it to the road. Secondly,..............a lot of EU drivers within the industry went back home to their respective countries to wait things out and be with their families. Because of the limited movement, and for large periods total lockdown, they couldn’t get back into the UK. Many still can’t. In 2020-2021 there is estimated to be 15,000 less EU nationals working in the UK. "Brexit. When the UK officially left the EU on January 31st 2020 this compounded the issue of getting these skilled workers in from the continent.... with the UK not receiving the help in the haulage and distribution industry it has always relied so heavily upon from the EU.
"IR35 .....Before the new regulations came in April 2021, individuals would set themselves up as a limited company and employers / agencies would pay ‘the company’ which then paid the individual within the company. By doing it this way they pay less tax resulting in keeping more of what they are grossly paid. However the laws have now changed and someone is going to have to pick up the tax bill! This means that drivers that historically used this loophole to their financial advantage now have the HMRC to answer to. So less financial incentive for lorry drivers to remain in the industry, or come back to it. ’Poor pay and working conditions are reasons not to become a lorry driver’ ...........the industry has been cast into the shadows and disregarded as an unglamorous job. Hence the reason for the declining uptake of young drivers into the industry to replace those retiring. The Road Haulage Association (RHA) reports that the average age of a driver in the UK currently is 55. With more drivers leaving than entering the LGV job market,Insurance Costs"Companies in the past have also been hesitant to hire young drivers with little to no experience to protect their already lofty insurance premiums and often wouldn’t employ anyone under the age of 25 due to the underwriting and heavy extras from insurance companies. "DVLA strike.............. is going to slow down thousands upon thousands of applications for would be lorry drivers."Full article: www.nationaldrivingcentre.co.uk/why-is-there-a-lorry-driver-shortage/The report states "there is estimated to be 15,000 less EU nationals working in the UK". That would suggest to me that Brexit is only a minor contributor to the shortage of lorry drivers and that changing the visa regulations to encourage foreign nationals to come and work in the UK would have minimal beneficial effect as it represents less than 5% of the total 320,000 lorry drivers in the UK. Furthermore it is not going to solve the 60 - 100,000 shortfall. In fact I would suggest paying a better wage would be far more effective to attract foreign drivers to return or to persuade UK drivers to return to driving HGVs.
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Post by Kilo on Aug 29, 2021 23:19:22 GMT
I have abstracted this from an article by the National Driving Centre, which includes additional reasons for the shortage of lorry drivers, namely insurance cost of young drivers and the DVLA strike slowing the processing of new drivers.: "The UK has trundled along with a driver shortage for years. Before Coronavirus the estimated number ......... was 60,000................. the deficit of drivers is now up to an eye watering 100,000. "Coronavirus. The Driving Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) usually has 43,000 new drivers passing their HGV tests each year to infill the hole left by those retiring.... But due to the 8 months where not a single test outside of critical workers was undertaken, this has resulted in only 15,000 HGV test passes. More than 27,000+ new drivers that never made it to the road. Secondly,..............a lot of EU drivers within the industry went back home to their respective countries to wait things out and be with their families. Because of the limited movement, and for large periods total lockdown, they couldn’t get back into the UK. Many still can’t. In 2020-2021 there is estimated to be 15,000 less EU nationals working in the UK. "Brexit. When the UK officially left the EU on January 31st 2020 this compounded the issue of getting these skilled workers in from the continent.... with the UK not receiving the help in the haulage and distribution industry it has always relied so heavily upon from the EU.
"IR35 .....Before the new regulations came in April 2021, individuals would set themselves up as a limited company and employers / agencies would pay ‘the company’ which then paid the individual within the company. By doing it this way they pay less tax resulting in keeping more of what they are grossly paid. However the laws have now changed and someone is going to have to pick up the tax bill! This means that drivers that historically used this loophole to their financial advantage now have the HMRC to answer to. So less financial incentive for lorry drivers to remain in the industry, or come back to it. ’Poor pay and working conditions are reasons not to become a lorry driver’ ...........the industry has been cast into the shadows and disregarded as an unglamorous job. Hence the reason for the declining uptake of young drivers into the industry to replace those retiring. The Road Haulage Association (RHA) reports that the average age of a driver in the UK currently is 55. With more drivers leaving than entering the LGV job market,Insurance Costs"Companies in the past have also been hesitant to hire young drivers with little to no experience to protect their already lofty insurance premiums and often wouldn’t employ anyone under the age of 25 due to the underwriting and heavy extras from insurance companies. "DVLA strike.............. is going to slow down thousands upon thousands of applications for would be lorry drivers."Full article: www.nationaldrivingcentre.co.uk/why-is-there-a-lorry-driver-shortage/The report states "there is estimated to be 15,000 less EU nationals working in the UK". That would suggest to me that Brexit is only a minor contributor to the shortage of lorry drivers and that changing the visa regulations to encourage foreign nationals to come and work in the UK would have minimal beneficial effect as it represents less than 5% of the total 320,000 lorry drivers in the UK. Furthermore it is not going to solve the 60 - 100,000 shortfall. In fact I would suggest paying a better wage would be far more effective to attract foreign drivers to return or to persuade UK drivers to return to driving HGVs. Before Coronavirus we were 60,000 short, now it's 100,000 - a 40,000 difference. 27,000 that couldn't take tests due to the DVLA Coronavirus strike and 15,000 that can't come into the UK because of Coronavirus, making 42,000 total
Figures tend to suggest that Brexit has had a + 2000 effect so more good news for Brexit
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Post by 4372 on Aug 29, 2021 23:24:58 GMT
"nationaldrivingcentre" lol. It's a business website. You just keep on telling yourself that shortages of goods and drivers are coincidental to Brexit. About as coincidental as the sun rising and setting every day.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 30, 2021 7:41:28 GMT
"nationaldrivingcentre" lol. It's a business website. You just keep on telling yourself that shortages of goods and drivers are coincidental to Brexit. About as coincidental as the sun rising and setting every day. Indeed and to do so, you have to be able to post this... "Brexit. When the UK officially left the EU on January 31st 2020 this compounded the issue of getting these skilled workers in from the continent.... with the UK not receiving the help in the haulage and distribution industry it has always relied so heavily upon from the EU." ...then, in the same post, conclude that Brexit is only a minor contributor...
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Aug 30, 2021 8:45:59 GMT
It's the usual Brexit hypocrisy. On one hand Brexiters are saying it's great that wages for drivers are increasing because we can no longer use cheap EU drivers because of Brexit, and the on the other they're saying that the shortage of drivers is hardly anything to do with Brexit.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 30, 2021 9:22:14 GMT
When I was a lad working on Embery's vans working as a bread boy, I learnt some of the basics in life.
One was that if you sold a dozen loaves to a shopkeeper, for him to make a profit he had to sell at least 9 and that just cover the cost of the loaves (sold at 12.5% discount) and some of his overheads. To make a decent living he had to sell 10,11, or 12. If he sold all 12 he had a very good day. The shopkeeper had a turnover of 10 to 12 loaves per day, but was heavily dependant on selling the last one or two to break even and make a profit and keeping in business as he was with everything else he sold.
It is a similar situation with lorry drivers. There has been a shortage for years driven by low wages, companies not employing young drivers and putting the onus on the drivers for qualification, being squeezed by the big supermarket chains, etc. the industry has become increasingly dependant on drivers coming from the EU.
When the virus struck many drivers were laid off, and/or returned to their homelands/country of birth where their families were. Many UK resident drivers were laid off from HGV work and found alternative employment in postal work due to the boost in internet sales, and light goods vehicle deliveries for supermarkets. (My local Morrisons leased 50 new vans last year.) We started to come out of the pandemic and demand increased for long distance lorry business, but a great many drivers have not returned to their former employment for various reasons such as prefer their new job (or retirement), prefer to stay in their homeland, put off by new tax laws, etc. Plus there have been virus and industrial relations factors affecting the training and licencing of new drivers so new drivers have been a lot fewer than normal years.
The driver shortage is a major issue and has been for a long time in the UK and other countries around the world. The answer is not to return to a high dependence on the number of foreign drivers, but for the industry to recognise they need to find a sustainable solution. It is certainly not a reason to stay in the EU to continue the dependence on the EU to provide drivers, food, cars, electricity, etc. and have a massive trade deficit of £72 billion in 2019 and a goods trade deficit of £95 billion. That is unsustainable and needed to be stopped by growing our £46 billion positive trade balance with non EU countries, but above all being more self sufficient as a country.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Aug 30, 2021 9:33:40 GMT
When I was a lad working on Embery's vans working as a bread boy, I learnt some of the basics in life. One was that if you sold a dozen loaves to a shopkeeper, for him to make a profit he had to sell at least 9 and that just cover the cost of the loaves (sold at 12.5% discount) and some of his overheads. To make a decent living he had to sell 10,11, or 12. If he sold all 12 he had a very good day. The shopkeeper had a turnover of 10 to 12 loaves per day, but was heavily dependant on selling the last one or two to break even and make a profit and keeping in business as he was with everything else he sold. It is a similar situation with lorry drivers. There has been a shortage for years driven by low wages, companies not employing young drivers and putting the onus on the drivers for qualification, being squeezed by the big supermarket chains, etc. the industry has become increasingly dependant on drivers coming from the EU. When the virus struck many drivers were laid off, and/or returned to their homelands/country of birth where their families were. Many UK resident drivers were laid off from HGV work and found alternative employment in postal work due to the boost in internet sales, and light goods vehicle deliveries for supermarkets. (My local Morrisons leased 50 new vans last year.) We started to come out of the pandemic and demand increased for long distance lorry business, but a great many drivers have not returned to their former employment for various reasons such as prefer their new job (or retirement), prefer to stay in their homeland, put off by new tax laws, etc. Plus there have been virus and industrial relations factors affecting the training and licencing of new drivers so new drivers have been a lot fewer than normal years. The driver shortage is a major issue and has been for a long time in the UK and other countries around the world. The answer is not to return to a high dependence on the number of foreign drivers, but for the industry to recognise they need to find a sustainable solution. It is certainly not a reason to stay in the EU to continue the dependence on the EU to provide drivers, food, cars, electricity, etc. and have a massive trade deficit of £72 billion in 2019 and a goods trade deficit of £95 billion. That is unsustainable and needed to be stopped by growing our £46 billion positive trade balance with non EU countries, but above all being more self sufficient as a country. For the UK to become more self-sufficient in the number of drivers it needs to attract them from other sectors, which ones are you suggesting? I see we have crops rotting in fields, farmers saying they simply won't plant next year. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in crop pickers as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract those from? I see the hospitality sector is unable to meet staff demand. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in those as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract them from? The debate is not about being in the EU any more other than trying to get Brexiters to join the dots and recognise there aren't enough workers, and that while Brexit might not be the dominant factor at present , the immigration policy means it will be more difficult to resolve. Not so many months ago there was talk on here about us growing more of our own crops. The post-Brexit reality is that at this rate we will grow less.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2021 10:39:26 GMT
When I was a lad working on Embery's vans working as a bread boy, I learnt some of the basics in life. One was that if you sold a dozen loaves to a shopkeeper, for him to make a profit he had to sell at least 9 and that just cover the cost of the loaves (sold at 12.5% discount) and some of his overheads. To make a decent living he had to sell 10,11, or 12. If he sold all 12 he had a very good day. The shopkeeper had a turnover of 10 to 12 loaves per day, but was heavily dependant on selling the last one or two to break even and make a profit and keeping in business as he was with everything else he sold. It is a similar situation with lorry drivers. There has been a shortage for years driven by low wages, companies not employing young drivers and putting the onus on the drivers for qualification, being squeezed by the big supermarket chains, etc. the industry has become increasingly dependant on drivers coming from the EU. When the virus struck many drivers were laid off, and/or returned to their homelands/country of birth where their families were. Many UK resident drivers were laid off from HGV work and found alternative employment in postal work due to the boost in internet sales, and light goods vehicle deliveries for supermarkets. (My local Morrisons leased 50 new vans last year.) We started to come out of the pandemic and demand increased for long distance lorry business, but a great many drivers have not returned to their former employment for various reasons such as prefer their new job (or retirement), prefer to stay in their homeland, put off by new tax laws, etc. Plus there have been virus and industrial relations factors affecting the training and licencing of new drivers so new drivers have been a lot fewer than normal years. The driver shortage is a major issue and has been for a long time in the UK and other countries around the world. The answer is not to return to a high dependence on the number of foreign drivers, but for the industry to recognise they need to find a sustainable solution. It is certainly not a reason to stay in the EU to continue the dependence on the EU to provide drivers, food, cars, electricity, etc. and have a massive trade deficit of £72 billion in 2019 and a goods trade deficit of £95 billion. That is unsustainable and needed to be stopped by growing our £46 billion positive trade balance with non EU countries, but above all being more self sufficient as a country. Indeed - we do need to find a sustainable solution but qualified drivers don't fall off trees overnight and doubling wages won't make people who are qualified and safe to drive turn up at 6 am tomorrow morning to take a rig out. If you're going to have people in charge of 38 tonnes of powered metal on your highways and round your towns they need to be trained and expeienced as well as paid. Those people in the right numbers currently do not exist within our indiginous community. So what do you propose we do in the meantime? Sacrifice public safety to remain wedded to a bizarre isolationist ideology? Either that or just reduce the amount of product being moved to a level that we have got enough drivers to cope with and introduce rationing?
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Post by Billy the kid on Aug 30, 2021 10:50:20 GMT
When I was a lad working on Embery's vans working as a bread boy, I learnt some of the basics in life. One was that if you sold a dozen loaves to a shopkeeper, for him to make a profit he had to sell at least 9 and that just cover the cost of the loaves (sold at 12.5% discount) and some of his overheads. To make a decent living he had to sell 10,11, or 12. If he sold all 12 he had a very good day. The shopkeeper had a turnover of 10 to 12 loaves per day, but was heavily dependant on selling the last one or two to break even and make a profit and keeping in business as he was with everything else he sold. It is a similar situation with lorry drivers. There has been a shortage for years driven by low wages, companies not employing young drivers and putting the onus on the drivers for qualification, being squeezed by the big supermarket chains, etc. the industry has become increasingly dependant on drivers coming from the EU. When the virus struck many drivers were laid off, and/or returned to their homelands/country of birth where their families were. Many UK resident drivers were laid off from HGV work and found alternative employment in postal work due to the boost in internet sales, and light goods vehicle deliveries for supermarkets. (My local Morrisons leased 50 new vans last year.) We started to come out of the pandemic and demand increased for long distance lorry business, but a great many drivers have not returned to their former employment for various reasons such as prefer their new job (or retirement), prefer to stay in their homeland, put off by new tax laws, etc. Plus there have been virus and industrial relations factors affecting the training and licencing of new drivers so new drivers have been a lot fewer than normal years. The driver shortage is a major issue and has been for a long time in the UK and other countries around the world. The answer is not to return to a high dependence on the number of foreign drivers, but for the industry to recognise they need to find a sustainable solution. It is certainly not a reason to stay in the EU to continue the dependence on the EU to provide drivers, food, cars, electricity, etc. and have a massive trade deficit of £72 billion in 2019 and a goods trade deficit of £95 billion. That is unsustainable and needed to be stopped by growing our £46 billion positive trade balance with non EU countries, but above all being more self sufficient as a country. For the UK to become more self-sufficient in the number of drivers it needs to attract them from other sectors, which ones are you suggesting? I see we have crops rotting in fields, farmers saying they simply won't plant next year. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in crop pickers as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract those from? I see the hospitality sector is unable to meet staff demand. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in those as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract them from? The debate is not about being in the EU any more other than trying to get Brexiters to join the dots and recognise there aren't enough workers, and that while Brexit might not be the dominant factor at present , the immigration policy means it will be more difficult to resolve. Not so many months ago there was talk on here about us growing more of our own crops. The post-Brexit reality is that at this rate we will grow less. So what you are advocating in the field picking, is the continuation of exploiting cheap foreign labor?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 30, 2021 11:29:40 GMT
For the UK to become more self-sufficient in the number of drivers it needs to attract them from other sectors, which ones are you suggesting? I see we have crops rotting in fields, farmers saying they simply won't plant next year. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in crop pickers as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract those from? I see the hospitality sector is unable to meet staff demand. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in those as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract them from? The debate is not about being in the EU any more other than trying to get Brexiters to join the dots and recognise there aren't enough workers, and that while Brexit might not be the dominant factor at present , the immigration policy means it will be more difficult to resolve. Not so many months ago there was talk on here about us growing more of our own crops. The post-Brexit reality is that at this rate we will grow less. So what you are advocating in the field picking, is the continuation of exploiting cheap foreign labor? We've been exploiting cheap foreign labour for decades, you could use all the examples from foghornsgleghorn above, then add in the care sector amongst others and the question is who pays for all the increases? Because I'm absolutely all for it and have been championing it for as long as I can remember, but ultimately the people making the huge profits are the retailers, private care firms etc so they either need to reduce their margins considerably (and shareholder dividends, director bonuses etc) or we as consumers need to pay more. So as I say bring it on, but I think we may have the wrong government in power to champion any radical changes that are required........
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 30, 2021 11:33:13 GMT
When I was a lad working on Embery's vans working as a bread boy, I learnt some of the basics in life. One was that if you sold a dozen loaves to a shopkeeper, for him to make a profit he had to sell at least 9 and that just cover the cost of the loaves (sold at 12.5% discount) and some of his overheads. To make a decent living he had to sell 10,11, or 12. If he sold all 12 he had a very good day. The shopkeeper had a turnover of 10 to 12 loaves per day, but was heavily dependant on selling the last one or two to break even and make a profit and keeping in business as he was with everything else he sold. It is a similar situation with lorry drivers. There has been a shortage for years driven by low wages, companies not employing young drivers and putting the onus on the drivers for qualification, being squeezed by the big supermarket chains, etc. the industry has become increasingly dependant on drivers coming from the EU. When the virus struck many drivers were laid off, and/or returned to their homelands/country of birth where their families were. Many UK resident drivers were laid off from HGV work and found alternative employment in postal work due to the boost in internet sales, and light goods vehicle deliveries for supermarkets. (My local Morrisons leased 50 new vans last year.) We started to come out of the pandemic and demand increased for long distance lorry business, but a great many drivers have not returned to their former employment for various reasons such as prefer their new job (or retirement), prefer to stay in their homeland, put off by new tax laws, etc. Plus there have been virus and industrial relations factors affecting the training and licencing of new drivers so new drivers have been a lot fewer than normal years. The driver shortage is a major issue and has been for a long time in the UK and other countries around the world. The answer is not to return to a high dependence on the number of foreign drivers, but for the industry to recognise they need to find a sustainable solution. It is certainly not a reason to stay in the EU to continue the dependence on the EU to provide drivers, food, cars, electricity, etc. and have a massive trade deficit of £72 billion in 2019 and a goods trade deficit of £95 billion. That is unsustainable and needed to be stopped by growing our £46 billion positive trade balance with non EU countries, but above all being more self sufficient as a country. For the UK to become more self-sufficient in the number of drivers it needs to attract them from other sectors, which ones are you suggesting? I see we have crops rotting in fields, farmers saying they simply won't plant next year. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in crop pickers as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract those from? I see the hospitality sector is unable to meet staff demand. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in those as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract them from? The debate is not about being in the EU any more other than trying to get Brexiters to join the dots and recognise there aren't enough workers, and that while Brexit might not be the dominant factor at present , the immigration policy means it will be more difficult to resolve. Not so many months ago there was talk on here about us growing more of our own crops. The post-Brexit reality is that at this rate we will grow less. I am all in favour of immigration. I am perfectly happy for people to migrate to this country and settle. Most immigration is from non EU countries and are welcome in my book to come and contribute to our society particularly health and social services. Almost half the church I attend were born in other countries (all non EU and in favour of Brexit). If pay was higher more would come. Unemployment is very high in Spain, Greece, etc. and I am happy for them to come and settle here, if they really want to. This millennium net immigration to this country has been typically 200,000 to 300,000 per year. The vast majority of those people are non EU citizens, who have come to settle permanently. What is not so clear is how many EU citizens have come to the UK. At the time of the referendum there were believed to be 3 to 3.5 million EU citizens in the UK denied the vote. Today the government has had over 6 million applications for residency with more requests every day. Some of those will be illegal immigrants of course, but how many EU citizens have left in the last 18 months? Immigration from the EU declined substantially in 2018 and 2019 to below 50,000, as remainers said it would, but in 2019 there were 282,000 non EU immigrants. Were we crying out for lack of workers then? Well we were certainly short of workers with unemployment at its lowest level for over 40 years, including alorry driver shortage. What has made things much worse is the pandemic. In 2020 we did not get the usual c. 250,000 immigrants from non EU countries to top up the labour market, and restrictions this year are still aggravating the situation. So yes you are right there are not enough workers, but it is due to the pandemic, not Brexit. For the last two decades the vast majority of immigrants were non EU citizens and it is the fall in immigration due to the pandemic that is the prime reason for the labour shortage. In fact the pandemic has been double whammy; a doctor I know, returned to India to look after his elderly parents last year, and has been unable to return. There are countless 10,000s like him I expect, who will come back in due course, when life returns to normal post pandemic. I am against transient workers from the EU, who "have a right" to come to the UK, undermine the job market on low wages, claim child benefit for their families back in eastern Europe, avoid tax doing transient jobs like fruit picking, car washing, etc for cash in hand and then disappearing to their own countries. Non EU countries citizens are quite rightly not allowed to do that, neither are EU citizens now we have left the EU. There have been houses in this country with 50 transient residents, sleeping rough, and mostly working in the black economy. Regarding agriculture, ask yourself how is it the UK with all our land is dependant on the Netherlands and Belgium for so much food? How do they produce it? When employment costs rise it will drive farming to more efficient operation like automation. Why automate when labour is cheap? The Netherlands and Belgium are far more efficient at food production and invested heavily not only in plant and equipment but by developing new varieties of food like tomatoes that can be grown all year round, disease resistant etc. In the past Italy has produced a surfeit of tomatoes and dumped them on the market at low prices in West Africa damaging local farming. We should produce what we can produce without high labour requirements and buy more food from the third world who desperately need the foreign exchange. There is absolutely no reason to be in the EU club so EU citizens can pick and chose when to come to the UK to fill their pockets. It will take time for the country to adjust to doing things differently. I know how hard it is to convince bosses to invest in things like automation and new enlarged processing. But we will get there. There is a huge new chicken factory* being built just down the road from where I live, one of many in the UK. The days when I delivered bread from Embery's to scores of local grocers in Staffordshire and South Cheshire are long gone. So regrettably is small farm holdings, as everything moves to a mass scale. * chicken and egg production is growing very rapidly in the UK: www.poultryworld.net/Meat/Articles/2021/4/Looking-ahead-at-UK-poultry-trends-A-retail-update-739542E/#:~:text=Year%20on%20year%2C%20fresh%20poultry,food%20on%20the%20move%20outlets.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Aug 30, 2021 12:08:36 GMT
For the UK to become more self-sufficient in the number of drivers it needs to attract them from other sectors, which ones are you suggesting? I see we have crops rotting in fields, farmers saying they simply won't plant next year. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in crop pickers as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract those from? I see the hospitality sector is unable to meet staff demand. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in those as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract them from? The debate is not about being in the EU any more other than trying to get Brexiters to join the dots and recognise there aren't enough workers, and that while Brexit might not be the dominant factor at present , the immigration policy means it will be more difficult to resolve. Not so many months ago there was talk on here about us growing more of our own crops. The post-Brexit reality is that at this rate we will grow less. So what you are advocating in the field picking, is the continuation of exploiting cheap foreign labor? Any work carried out in the UK should be in accordance with employment law including pay. If the government cannot be bothered to police that then exploitation will continue. Of course we could turn land over to highly-mechanised alternatives and import all our labour-intensive fruit and veg, safe in the knowledge that those workers will certainly not be being exploited elsewhere, while ignoring the impact on the environment of food miles .
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Aug 30, 2021 12:20:01 GMT
So what you are advocating in the field picking, is the continuation of exploiting cheap foreign labor? We've been exploiting cheap foreign labour for decades, you could use all the examples from foghornsgleghorn above, then add in the care sector amongst others and the question is who pays for all the increases? Because I'm absolutely all for it and have been championing it for as long as I can remember, but ultimately the people making the huge profits are the retailers, private care firms etc so they either need to reduce their margins considerably (and shareholder dividends, director bonuses etc) or we as consumers need to pay more. So as I say bring it on, but I think we may have the wrong government in power to champion any radical changes that are required........ There is no great will amongst the UK voting population to bring about the changes. Many of those saying they want high wages are the same ones who want to bin employment red tape and stand in the supermarket shaking their heads to see that the prices have gone up again.
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Post by Billy the kid on Aug 30, 2021 12:20:36 GMT
So what you are advocating in the field picking, is the continuation of exploiting cheap foreign labor? We've been exploiting cheap foreign labour for decades, you could use all the examples from foghornsgleghorn above, then add in the care sector amongst others and the question is who pays for all the increases? Because I'm absolutely all for it and have been championing it for as long as I can remember, but ultimately the people making the huge profits are the retailers, private care firms etc so they either need to reduce their margins considerably (and shareholder dividends, director bonuses etc) or we as consumers need to pay more. So as I say bring it on, but I think we may have the wrong government in power to champion any radical changes that are required........ 100 percent agree with that! We have taken advantage of cheap foreign workers for a long time, and now they are not here, we have businesses and farmers not able to financially afford to operate, and that falls to retailers not paying the rate required (even if farms for example could get the labor in) as ultimately no one is going to pay £5.50 for a punnet of grapes, but will happily spend £500 on a PlayStation 5.I am not sure if it's lock down that has changed my whole mind set, but I'm planning to become much more self sufficient.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2021 12:39:04 GMT
We've been exploiting cheap foreign labour for decades, you could use all the examples from foghornsgleghorn above, then add in the care sector amongst others and the question is who pays for all the increases? Because I'm absolutely all for it and have been championing it for as long as I can remember, but ultimately the people making the huge profits are the retailers, private care firms etc so they either need to reduce their margins considerably (and shareholder dividends, director bonuses etc) or we as consumers need to pay more. So as I say bring it on, but I think we may have the wrong government in power to champion any radical changes that are required........ 100 percent agree with that! We have taken advantage of cheap foreign workers for a long time, and now they are not here, we have businesses and farmers not able to financially afford to operate, and that falls to retailers not paying the rate required (even if farms for example could get the labor in) as ultimately no one is going to pay £5.50 for a punnet of grapes, but will happily spend £500 on a PlayStation 5.I am not sure if it's lock down that has changed my whole mind set, but I'm planning to become much more self sufficient. Of course they won't. One of the great lies of the Leave campaign is that we would see cheaper food post Brexit (just google Farage+cheapfood+postbrexit for examples) and any talk of increases was just 'remainer scaremongering'. So if Brexiters voted for cheap food then they're hardly likely to welcome expensive stuff - particularly in Red Wall seats where they're not generally used to Waitrose prices. Of course The Man himself has slid out from underneath his lying bullshit and taken to insulting lifeboat volunteers instead.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 30, 2021 13:15:29 GMT
It's the usual Brexit hypocrisy. On one hand Brexiters are saying it's great that wages for drivers are increasing because we can no longer use cheap EU drivers because of Brexit, and the on the other they're saying that the shortage of drivers is hardly anything to do with Brexit. It's the usual brexit hypocrisy. On one hand remainers say being in the EU never affected wages on the other they now say wages are going up because of the shortage of cheap EU drivers which is hardly anything to do with being in the EU.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 30, 2021 13:26:21 GMT
For the UK to become more self-sufficient in the number of drivers it needs to attract them from other sectors, which ones are you suggesting? I see we have crops rotting in fields, farmers saying they simply won't plant next year. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in crop pickers as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract those from? I see the hospitality sector is unable to meet staff demand. I suppose we should become more self-sufficient in those as well? Which sectors are you suggesting we attract them from? The debate is not about being in the EU any more other than trying to get Brexiters to join the dots and recognise there aren't enough workers, and that while Brexit might not be the dominant factor at present , the immigration policy means it will be more difficult to resolve. Not so many months ago there was talk on here about us growing more of our own crops. The post-Brexit reality is that at this rate we will grow less. I am all in favour of immigration. I am perfectly happy for people to migrate to this country and settle. Most immigration is from non EU countries and are welcome in my book to come and contribute to our society particularly health and social services. Almost half the church I attend were born in other countries (all non EU and in favour of Brexit). If pay was higher more would come. Unemployment is very high in Spain, Greece, etc. and I am happy for them to come and settle here, if they really want to. This millennium net immigration to this country has been typically 200,000 to 300,000 per year. The vast majority of those people are non EU citizens, who have come to settle permanently. What is not so clear is how many EU citizens have come to the UK. At the time of the referendum there were believed to be 3 to 3.5 million EU citizens in the UK denied the vote. Today the government has had over 6 million applications for residency with more requests every day. Some of those will be illegal immigrants of course, but how many EU citizens have left in the last 18 months? Immigration from the EU declined substantially in 2018 and 2019 to below 50,000, as remainers said it would, but in 2019 there were 282,000 non EU immigrants. Were we crying out for lack of workers then? Well we were certainly short of workers with unemployment at its lowest level for over 40 years, including alorry driver shortage. What has made things much worse is the pandemic. In 2020 we did not get the usual c. 250,000 immigrants from non EU countries to top up the labour market, and restrictions this year are still aggravating the situation. So yes you are right there are not enough workers, but it is due to the pandemic, not Brexit. For the last two decades the vast majority of immigrants were non EU citizens and it is the fall in immigration due to the pandemic that is the prime reason for the labour shortage. In fact the pandemic has been double whammy; a doctor I know, returned to India to look after his elderly parents last year, and has been unable to return. There are countless 10,000s like him I expect, who will come back in due course, when life returns to normal post pandemic. I am against transient workers from the EU, who "have a right" to come to the UK, undermine the job market on low wages, claim child benefit for their families back in eastern Europe, avoid tax doing transient jobs like fruit picking, car washing, etc for cash in hand and then disappearing to their own countries. Non EU countries citizens are quite rightly not allowed to do that, neither are EU citizens now we have left the EU. There have been houses in this country with 50 transient residents, sleeping rough, and mostly working in the black economy. Regarding agriculture, ask yourself how is it the UK with all our land is dependant on the Netherlands and Belgium for so much food? How do they produce it? When employment costs rise it will drive farming to more efficient operation like automation. Why automate when labour is cheap? The Netherlands and Belgium are far more efficient at food production and invested heavily not only in plant and equipment but by developing new varieties of food like tomatoes that can be grown all year round, disease resistant etc. In the past Italy has produced a surfeit of tomatoes and dumped them on the market at low prices in West Africa damaging local farming. We should produce what we can produce without high labour requirements and buy more food from the third world who desperately need the foreign exchange. There is absolutely no reason to be in the EU club so EU citizens can pick and chose when to come to the UK to fill their pockets. It will take time for the country to adjust to doing things differently. I know how hard it is to convince bosses to invest in things like automation and new enlarged processing. But we will get there. There is a huge new chicken factory* being built just down the road from where I live, one of many in the UK. The days when I delivered bread from Embery's to scores of local grocers in Staffordshire and South Cheshire are long gone. So regrettably is small farm holdings, as everything moves to a mass scale. * chicken and egg production is growing very rapidly in the UK: www.poultryworld.net/Meat/Articles/2021/4/Looking-ahead-at-UK-poultry-trends-A-retail-update-739542E/#:~:text=Year%20on%20year%2C%20fresh%20poultry,food%20on%20the%20move%20outlets. Agree with much of that the medium to longer term solution is to make some type of working holiday visa for under 25s or under 30s which does not give an automatic right to remain for life works perfectly well in.the majority of the rest of the world and 20 years plus ago when I first moved to London it was mostly aussies, kiwis and saffas I see no reason something like that can't be gone back too and expanded to the whole of the commonwealth as well as the EU.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Aug 30, 2021 14:49:58 GMT
I am all in favour of immigration. I am perfectly happy for people to migrate to this country and settle. Most immigration is from non EU countries and are welcome in my book to come and contribute to our society particularly health and social services. Almost half the church I attend were born in other countries (all non EU and in favour of Brexit). If pay was higher more would come. Unemployment is very high in Spain, Greece, etc. and I am happy for them to come and settle here, if they really want to. This millennium net immigration to this country has been typically 200,000 to 300,000 per year. The vast majority of those people are non EU citizens, who have come to settle permanently. What is not so clear is how many EU citizens have come to the UK. At the time of the referendum there were believed to be 3 to 3.5 million EU citizens in the UK denied the vote. Today the government has had over 6 million applications for residency with more requests every day. Some of those will be illegal immigrants of course, but how many EU citizens have left in the last 18 months? Immigration from the EU declined substantially in 2018 and 2019 to below 50,000, as remainers said it would, but in 2019 there were 282,000 non EU immigrants. Were we crying out for lack of workers then? Well we were certainly short of workers with unemployment at its lowest level for over 40 years, including alorry driver shortage. What has made things much worse is the pandemic. In 2020 we did not get the usual c. 250,000 immigrants from non EU countries to top up the labour market, and restrictions this year are still aggravating the situation. So yes you are right there are not enough workers, but it is due to the pandemic, not Brexit. For the last two decades the vast majority of immigrants were non EU citizens and it is the fall in immigration due to the pandemic that is the prime reason for the labour shortage. In fact the pandemic has been double whammy; a doctor I know, returned to India to look after his elderly parents last year, and has been unable to return. There are countless 10,000s like him I expect, who will come back in due course, when life returns to normal post pandemic. I am against transient workers from the EU, who "have a right" to come to the UK, undermine the job market on low wages, claim child benefit for their families back in eastern Europe, avoid tax doing transient jobs like fruit picking, car washing, etc for cash in hand and then disappearing to their own countries. Non EU countries citizens are quite rightly not allowed to do that, neither are EU citizens now we have left the EU. There have been houses in this country with 50 transient residents, sleeping rough, and mostly working in the black economy. Regarding agriculture, ask yourself how is it the UK with all our land is dependant on the Netherlands and Belgium for so much food? How do they produce it? When employment costs rise it will drive farming to more efficient operation like automation. Why automate when labour is cheap? The Netherlands and Belgium are far more efficient at food production and invested heavily not only in plant and equipment but by developing new varieties of food like tomatoes that can be grown all year round, disease resistant etc. In the past Italy has produced a surfeit of tomatoes and dumped them on the market at low prices in West Africa damaging local farming. We should produce what we can produce without high labour requirements and buy more food from the third world who desperately need the foreign exchange. There is absolutely no reason to be in the EU club so EU citizens can pick and chose when to come to the UK to fill their pockets. It will take time for the country to adjust to doing things differently. I know how hard it is to convince bosses to invest in things like automation and new enlarged processing. But we will get there. There is a huge new chicken factory* being built just down the road from where I live, one of many in the UK. The days when I delivered bread from Embery's to scores of local grocers in Staffordshire and South Cheshire are long gone. So regrettably is small farm holdings, as everything moves to a mass scale. * chicken and egg production is growing very rapidly in the UK: www.poultryworld.net/Meat/Articles/2021/4/Looking-ahead-at-UK-poultry-trends-A-retail-update-739542E/#:~:text=Year%20on%20year%2C%20fresh%20poultry,food%20on%20the%20move%20outlets. Agree with much of that the medium to longer term solution is to make some type of working holiday visa for under 25s or under 30s which does not give an automatic right to remain for life works perfectly well in.the majority of the rest of the world and 20 years plus ago when I first moved to London it was mostly aussies, kiwis and saffas I see no reason something like that can't be gone back too and expanded to the whole of the commonwealth as well as the EU. So in one post you're arguing for higher wages and the next we need to grant temporary working visas to ensure there's sufficient cheap labour , even in the longer term.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 30, 2021 16:33:08 GMT
Agree with much of that the medium to longer term solution is to make some type of working holiday visa for under 25s or under 30s which does not give an automatic right to remain for life works perfectly well in.the majority of the rest of the world and 20 years plus ago when I first moved to London it was mostly aussies, kiwis and saffas I see no reason something like that can't be gone back too and expanded to the whole of the commonwealth as well as the EU. So in one post you're arguing for higher wages and the next we need to grant temporary working visas to ensure there's sufficient cheap labour , even in the longer term. You say cheap I say casual, certain roles in industries like hospitality for example bar staff / waiting staff have and always will rely on relatively low paid staff, 30+ years ago these were jobs fot students / sixth formers, gradually the free movement of labour resulted in these becoming careers for some people whilst wages and opportunities in better paid jobs like driving were driven down (no pun intended), 30+ years ago most companies had training schemes, apprentices etc again gradually these companies just started to recruit trained staff from anywhere in the EU cutting better paid opportunities and career paths for youngsters.
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