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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 9:45:47 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 9:57:42 GMT
This link reminds me of two things. Firstly when the government announced that the UK would seeking to join the Pacific free trade organization, the correspondents on the BBC News said: " Why should we seek to join a trade organization, when we have just left one? To which was the reply " There doesn't seem much point does there."The link: apnews.com/article/norway-europe-canada-cb925b2a53ec4c0498a4919893b5d4aeThe EU is about a lot more than a free trade organization. It is a political union aimed creating a united states of Europe, where individual national rights will be suppressed. There is already the priority of EU law over national laws, ambassadors and the start of a European army with a uniform agreed for "EU soldiers". The second paragraph in the above link referring to bureaucracy/red tape etc. had me smiling. I remember many years ago letting off steam in to a secretary about how inefficient we British were compared with the Germans. I had just experienced an administrative mix up in front of a German student who was sharing my office. (He was on an exchange project.) I said in despair to the secretary " When the Germans see how disorganised we British are compared to them, they must wonder how they lost the war".She replied " I know why the Germans lost the war; they were too busy doing their filing".Preparations for improving trade: www.briefingsforbritain.co.uk/will-the-eu-form-its-own-army/Time to remind us again about the words of one of the founding fathers of European union: www.inspiringquotes.us/quotes/aB0C_hrU8vInE
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Post by thevoid on May 6, 2021 10:09:20 GMT
I'll say this for the French- at least they stand up for themselves without any worry about upsetting the neighbours. Yet when we do it we're Little Englander xenophobes 😄
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Post by thevoid on May 6, 2021 10:10:40 GMT
WTF are fruit loops? I’ve googled it, I’ve never heard of em. Apparently some 1950s American breakfast cereal I believe I thought it was quite funny. And liked by his alt too.
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 10:17:37 GMT
I've read it and the Germans seem to be out of step with the results of other countries. The majority of other countries think there will be long term benefits or are reserving judgement and say "don't know". The Germans also have the biggest % that believe the EU has been beneficial to their country, which is hardly surprising as Germany is the "workshop " of Europe where east and south Europeans need to go to find work. The Germans benefit from the Euro, which is undervalued relative to the German economy; Germany enjoys a massive positive trade balance with rest of the EU and the RoW. Conversely the Euro is over valued for the economies of countries like Greece and Italy which strangles their economies.
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Post by xchpotter on May 6, 2021 10:47:37 GMT
I'll say this for the French- at least they stand up for themselves without any worry about upsetting the neighbours. Yet when we do it we're Little Englander xenophobes 😄 They do indeed whereas we have been conditioned over years to hate ourselves and be fearful of doing anything in the interests of the nation in case we upset someone who doesn’t like the country.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 10:51:28 GMT
I've read it and the Germans seem to be out of step with the results of other countries. The majority of other countries think there will be long term benefits or are reserving judgement and say "don't know". The Germans also have the biggest % that believe the EU has been beneficial to their country, which is hardly surprising as Germany is the "workshop " of Europe where east and south Europeans need to go to find work. The Germans benefit from the Euro, which is undervalued relative to the German economy; Germany enjoys a massive positive trade balance with rest of the EU and the RoW. Conversely the Euro is over valued for the economies of countries like Greece and Italy which strangles their economies. Interesting that none of the other countries polled wanted to leave the EU, albeit with reservations towards it. Despite the hyperbole, histrionics and wishful thinking of some on here (which, let's be honest, is really just a reflection of the relief that would be felt if the EU did come crashing down) it seems to be in fairly robust popular condition, if that article is reflective of feeling in these countries. You quite often confidently mention that Ireland will soon turn its back on the EU. Any evidence of wanting to leave the EU from across the Irish Sea?
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 11:28:02 GMT
I've read it and the Germans seem to be out of step with the results of other countries. The majority of other countries think there will be long term benefits or are reserving judgement and say "don't know". The Germans also have the biggest % that believe the EU has been beneficial to their country, which is hardly surprising as Germany is the "workshop " of Europe where east and south Europeans need to go to find work. The Germans benefit from the Euro, which is undervalued relative to the German economy; Germany enjoys a massive positive trade balance with rest of the EU and the RoW. Conversely the Euro is over valued for the economies of countries like Greece and Italy which strangles their economies. Interesting that none of the other countries polled wanted to leave the EU, albeit with reservations towards it. Despite the hyperbole, histrionics and wishful thinking of some on here (which, let's be honest, is really just a reflection of the relief that would be felt if the EU did come crashing down) it seems to be in fairly robust popular condition, if that article is reflective of feeling in these countries. You quite often confidently mention that Ireland will soon turn its back on the EU. Any evidence of wanting to leave the EU from across the Irish Sea? I don't think I have ever said " Ireland will soon turn its back on the EU". Please quote me if I have, What I have repeatedly said is Ireland has done brilliantly out of EU membership. It benefitted massively from regional aid, which only Scotland and Northern Ireland have had significant benefits from. England and Wales have received scraps back from the massive net financial payments made to the EU for over 40 years. Ireland has benefitted from CAP. Ireland's industry has benefitted massively during EU membership supplemented by low Irish government taxes. Ireland has even had some silver linings from Brexit with the movement of some financial services from London to Dublin, although their trade with the UK has been damaged and they have had to reroute much of their trade round mainland GB. But, Some time time ago Ireland had to take on some EU debt, which it has successfully paid off. But more debt is coming to support southern European states. Ireland has lost out to the EU on fishing, taking the biggest share of the EU cuts under the fishing agreement with the EU. The CAP is to be reduced as the EU can no longer support the extravagance without the UK. Low Irish Corporation Tax is going to be ended forced on them by the EU and their friend Biden. Finally net financial contributions will sharply increase in the future. You are correct to say Ireland is fully behind the EU, but I believe that will change in the future, particularly as political union increases. I'm sure Ireland values its independance and neutrality far higher than the bureaucrats in Brussels understand. I'm not Irish, but I was once married to a Dublin girl.
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 13:55:11 GMT
I have now studied this poll and observe the following. 1. As the headline states, most of the Germans asked think the UK will not benefit in the long term from Brexit. The other countries hold a minority view on that, in fact a quarter of Germans think the UK will benefit from leaving the EU, as do c. 40% of French and Italians. Why is that? More French and Italians thought the UK would benefit than those who thought the UK would not benefit. So one presumes the UK was correct to leave in their opinion. I wonder how many German's and other EU members think the UK will be worse off in the long run by leaving the EU? Was that question asked? I bet it was, but maybe they chose not to publish the result because it did not fit the agenda. 2. Amazingly, despite the huge benefits Germany has accrued from EU membership, in answer to the second question, less than have of Germans think EU membership has been a positive effect on Germany. I bet Ireland would figure a lot higher than that. Furthermore there are as many French and Italians believe EU membership has had a negative effect on their country as a positive effect. That does not sound like a resounding success story for the EU. Remember these countries have enjoyed the UK massive net financial contribution for over four decades and enjoy massive positive trade balances with the UK. What do they want or expect in order to have a positive attitude to EU membership? 3. For obvious reasons, most citizens in Germany and France would prefer to remain in the EU. Hardly surprising given the industrial and agricultural benefits they enjoy. London, Scotland and Northern Ireland felt similarly in the UK referendum, not surprising as they enjoyed the benefits of UK membership. The rest of the UK emphatically voted to leave the EU. I wonder what the split would be in Germany, France, and Italy between the regions and the capital and major cities. In my own area, only Harrogate voted to stay in the EU; well there's a surprise! 4. The sample size was 1,500 in each country. The report does not state how the survey was carried out. It is usual these days to do a poll on line and then skew the results to correct for the "error" in the sampling. Sampling online does not "pick up" the opinion of those not online, not interested in doing polls, too busy, in hospital, nursing/old folks homes, etc. but of course some people think their opinion does not matter. I could not see when the polls were carried out. People's opinions change over time. A common trick these days, particularly the right wing gutter press is to report something months or even years old as though it is news today. This article uses the trick that the Guardian and Independent use of selecting from the whole article a headline that suits their agenda, or some meaningless statistic like a percentage value from small numbers. Today's news is about record UK economic growth this year, well surprise, surprise, what would you expect after a pandemic? For example this poll in Italy was done in 2019: www.statista.com/statistics/935265/opinion-on-eu-membership-in-italy/If the same Italian people were asked today after the pandemic would they still think the same? The article you quote suggests they do, if it is a recent poll. But is the article quoting a poll taken in 2019? Once again I think you have been seduced by a headline and not studied the detail in the article.
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Post by thevoid on May 6, 2021 14:17:49 GMT
I just don't get why some people spend so much time on here getting in a tizz over something they can't control and posting constant links about something they can't change.
It's not healthy. Go for a run or something.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 14:32:46 GMT
Interesting that none of the other countries polled wanted to leave the EU, albeit with reservations towards it. Despite the hyperbole, histrionics and wishful thinking of some on here (which, let's be honest, is really just a reflection of the relief that would be felt if the EU did come crashing down) it seems to be in fairly robust popular condition, if that article is reflective of feeling in these countries. You quite often confidently mention that Ireland will soon turn its back on the EU. Any evidence of wanting to leave the EU from across the Irish Sea? I don't think I have ever said " Ireland will soon turn its back on the EU". Please quote me if I have, What I have repeatedly said is Ireland has done brilliantly out of EU membership. It benefitted massively from regional aid, which only Scotland and Northern Ireland have had significant benefits from. England and Wales have received scraps back from the massive net financial payments made to the EU for over 40 years. Ireland has benefitted from CAP. Ireland's industry has benefitted massively during EU membership supplemented by low Irish government taxes. Ireland has even had some silver linings from Brexit with the movement of some financial services from London to Dublin, although their trade with the UK has been damaged and they have had to reroute much of their trade round mainland GB. But, Some time time ago Ireland had to take on some EU debt, which it has successfully paid off. But more debt is coming to support southern European states. Ireland has lost out to the EU on fishing, taking the biggest share of the EU cuts under the fishing agreement with the EU. The CAP is to be reduced as the EU can no longer support the extravagance without the UK. Low Irish Corporation Tax is going to be ended forced on them by the EU and their friend Biden. Finally net financial contributions will sharply increase in the future. You are correct to say Ireland is fully behind the EU, but I believe that will change in the future, particularly as political union increases. I'm sure Ireland values its independance and neutrality far higher than the bureaucrats in Brussels understand. I'm not Irish, but I was once married to a Dublin girl. This good enough, or, semantically, does it need to be word for word?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 15:03:53 GMT
I have now studied this poll and observe the following. 1. As the headline states, most of the Germans asked think the UK will not benefit in the long term from Brexit. The other countries hold a minority view on that, in fact a quarter of Germans think the UK will benefit from leaving the EU, as do c. 40% of French and Italians. Why is that? More French and Italians thought the UK would benefit than those who thought the UK would not benefit. So one presumes the UK was correct to leave in their opinion. I wonder how many German's and other EU members think the UK will be worse off in the long run by leaving the EU? Was that question asked? I bet it was, but maybe they chose not to publish the result because it did not fit the agenda. 2. Amazingly, despite the huge benefits Germany has accrued from EU membership, in answer to the second question, less than have of Germans think EU membership has been a positive effect on Germany. I bet Ireland would figure a lot higher than that. Furthermore there are as many French and Italians believe EU membership has had a negative effect on their country as a positive effect. That does not sound like a resounding success story for the EU. Remember these countries have enjoyed the UK massive net financial contribution for over four decades and enjoy massive positive trade balances with the UK. What do they want or expect in order to have a positive attitude to EU membership? 3. For obvious reasons, most citizens in Germany and France would prefer to remain in the EU. Hardly surprising given the industrial and agricultural benefits they enjoy. London, Scotland and Northern Ireland felt similarly in the UK referendum, not surprising as they enjoyed the benefits of UK membership. The rest of the UK emphatically voted to leave the EU. I wonder what the split would be in Germany, France, and Italy between the regions and the capital and major cities. In my own area, only Harrogate voted to stay in the EU; well there's a surprise! 4. The sample size was 1,500 in each country. The report does not state how the survey was carried out. It is usual these days to do a poll on line and then skew the results to correct for the "error" in the sampling. Sampling online does not "pick up" the opinion of those not online, not interested in doing polls, too busy, in hospital, nursing/old folks homes, etc. but of course some people think their opinion does not matter. I could not see when the polls were carried out. People's opinions change over time. A common trick these days, particularly the right wing gutter press is to report something months or even years old as though it is news today. This article uses the trick that the Guardian and Independent use of selecting from the whole article a headline that suits their agenda, or some meaningless statistic like a percentage value from small numbers. Today's news is about record UK economic growth this year, well surprise, surprise, what would you expect after a pandemic? For example this poll in Italy was done in 2019: www.statista.com/statistics/935265/opinion-on-eu-membership-in-italy/If the same Italian people were asked today after the pandemic would they still think the same? The article you quote suggests they do, if it is a recent poll. But is the article quoting a poll taken in 2019? Once again I think you have been seduced by a headline and not studied the detail in the article. Some other Redfield & Wilton Strategies poll results (polling last Summer, excluding DKs): How would you vote in a referendum on your country's membership of the European Union held in the near future? Germany - stay 67%, leave 20% Italy - stay 43%, leave 31% France - stay 47%, leave 22% Spain - stay 63%, leave 21% How would you vote in a referendum on your country's membership of the Eurozone held in the near future? Germany - stay 70%, leave 19% Italy - stay 41%, leave 31% France - stay 47%, leave 21% Spain - stay 64%, leave 24% I often read a lot on these pages about how the EU is literally going down in flames and such like! Or increasing confidence that some country or other is going to leave. It's just wishful thinking on the part of Brexiteers who want to see it fall apart. Never quite sure why. They've got what they wanted. Why wish ill on anyone else? Any collapse of the EU will have substantial and significant knock on effects on us too.
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 15:04:37 GMT
I don't think I have ever said " Ireland will soon turn its back on the EU". Please quote me if I have, What I have repeatedly said is Ireland has done brilliantly out of EU membership. It benefitted massively from regional aid, which only Scotland and Northern Ireland have had significant benefits from. England and Wales have received scraps back from the massive net financial payments made to the EU for over 40 years. Ireland has benefitted from CAP. Ireland's industry has benefitted massively during EU membership supplemented by low Irish government taxes. Ireland has even had some silver linings from Brexit with the movement of some financial services from London to Dublin, although their trade with the UK has been damaged and they have had to reroute much of their trade round mainland GB. But, Some time time ago Ireland had to take on some EU debt, which it has successfully paid off. But more debt is coming to support southern European states. Ireland has lost out to the EU on fishing, taking the biggest share of the EU cuts under the fishing agreement with the EU. The CAP is to be reduced as the EU can no longer support the extravagance without the UK. Low Irish Corporation Tax is going to be ended forced on them by the EU and their friend Biden. Finally net financial contributions will sharply increase in the future. You are correct to say Ireland is fully behind the EU, but I believe that will change in the future, particularly as political union increases. I'm sure Ireland values its independance and neutrality far higher than the bureaucrats in Brussels understand. I'm not Irish, but I was once married to a Dublin girl. This good enough, or, semantically, does it need to be word for word? I think there is a world of difference between my words " the day will come" and your words " soon turn".The previous poster is right, but I cannot sit by and let misleading posts go by, nor people posting things I am supposed to have said that I haven't. As I repeatedly have said, I never entered this debate on Brexit prior to the referendum. I could see both sides were trying to mislead and lie to the publican 2016. My campaign since the referendum has been because of the continued efforts of those who have tried to reverse the will of the people, to continue to distort statistics, and try and undermine Brexit because it does not suit their selfish ends. Today's BBC News is another example with comments arising from an American diplomats comments that " It will take years to agree a trade agreement with the USA ". Of course it will, it always does. As I pointed out yesterday the EU and India have been in discussion on and off since 2007. Even if a trade agreement is reached, it does not automatically mean increased trade. That depends on individual companies seeking to trade; at the end of the day governments don't do any trading themselves (thank God) they facilitate companies taking advantage of commercial opportunities such as reduced tariffs, quotas, taxes, red tape, etc. Something UK companies are very good at.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 15:17:50 GMT
This good enough, or, semantically, does it need to be word for word? I think there is a world of difference between my words " the day will come" and your words " soon turn".The previous poster is right, but I cannot sit by and let misleading posts go by, nor people posting things I am supposed to have said that I haven't. As I repeatedly have said, I never entered this debate on Brexit prior to the referendum. I could see both sides were trying to mislead and lie to the publican 2016. My campaign since the referendum has been because of the continued efforts of those who have tried to reverse the will of the people, to continue to distort statistics, and try and undermine Brexit because it does not suit their selfish ends. Today's BBC News is another example with comments arising from an American diplomats comments that " It will take years to agree a trade agreement with the USA ". Of course it will, it always does. As I pointed out yesterday the EU and India have been in discussion on and off since 2007. Even if a trade agreement is reached, it does not automatically mean increased trade. That depends on individual companies seeking to trade; at the end of the day governments don't do any trading themselves (thank God) they facilitate companies taking advantage of commercial opportunities such as reduced tariffs, quotas, taxes, red tape, etc. Something UK companies are very good at. Yes, I thought you'd probably row back on that a little! OK, so at some undefined point in the future, you have full confidence that Ireland will turn against the EU That fair enough? I think you can stop campaigning! Brexit is done and the fallout is now upon us, and nothing anyone writes or says will change that. However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to continue to see whether what was promised as a result of Brexit pans out. Only six months in but, so far, it's not looking great.
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 16:06:23 GMT
I have now studied this poll and observe the following. 1. As the headline states, most of the Germans asked think the UK will not benefit in the long term from Brexit. The other countries hold a minority view on that, in fact a quarter of Germans think the UK will benefit from leaving the EU, as do c. 40% of French and Italians. Why is that? More French and Italians thought the UK would benefit than those who thought the UK would not benefit. So one presumes the UK was correct to leave in their opinion. I wonder how many German's and other EU members think the UK will be worse off in the long run by leaving the EU? Was that question asked? I bet it was, but maybe they chose not to publish the result because it did not fit the agenda. 2. Amazingly, despite the huge benefits Germany has accrued from EU membership, in answer to the second question, less than have of Germans think EU membership has been a positive effect on Germany. I bet Ireland would figure a lot higher than that. Furthermore there are as many French and Italians believe EU membership has had a negative effect on their country as a positive effect. That does not sound like a resounding success story for the EU. Remember these countries have enjoyed the UK massive net financial contribution for over four decades and enjoy massive positive trade balances with the UK. What do they want or expect in order to have a positive attitude to EU membership? 3. For obvious reasons, most citizens in Germany and France would prefer to remain in the EU. Hardly surprising given the industrial and agricultural benefits they enjoy. London, Scotland and Northern Ireland felt similarly in the UK referendum, not surprising as they enjoyed the benefits of UK membership. The rest of the UK emphatically voted to leave the EU. I wonder what the split would be in Germany, France, and Italy between the regions and the capital and major cities. In my own area, only Harrogate voted to stay in the EU; well there's a surprise! 4. The sample size was 1,500 in each country. The report does not state how the survey was carried out. It is usual these days to do a poll on line and then skew the results to correct for the "error" in the sampling. Sampling online does not "pick up" the opinion of those not online, not interested in doing polls, too busy, in hospital, nursing/old folks homes, etc. but of course some people think their opinion does not matter. I could not see when the polls were carried out. People's opinions change over time. A common trick these days, particularly the right wing gutter press is to report something months or even years old as though it is news today. This article uses the trick that the Guardian and Independent use of selecting from the whole article a headline that suits their agenda, or some meaningless statistic like a percentage value from small numbers. Today's news is about record UK economic growth this year, well surprise, surprise, what would you expect after a pandemic? For example this poll in Italy was done in 2019: www.statista.com/statistics/935265/opinion-on-eu-membership-in-italy/If the same Italian people were asked today after the pandemic would they still think the same? The article you quote suggests they do, if it is a recent poll. But is the article quoting a poll taken in 2019? Once again I think you have been seduced by a headline and not studied the detail in the article. Some other Redfield & Wilton Strategies poll results (polling last Summer, excluding DKs): How would you vote in a referendum on your country's membership of the European Union held in the near future? Germany - stay 67%, leave 20% Italy - stay 43%, leave 31% France - stay 47%, leave 22% Spain - stay 63%, leave 21% How would you vote in a referendum on your country's membership of the Eurozone held in the near future? Germany - stay 70%, leave 19% Italy - stay 41%, leave 31% France - stay 47%, leave 21% Spain - stay 64%, leave 24% I often read a lot on these pages about how the EU is literally going down in flames and such like! Or increasing confidence that some country or other is going to leave. It's just wishful thinking on the part of Brexiteers who want to see it fall apart. Never quite sure why. They've got what they wanted. Why wish ill on anyone else? Any collapse of the EU will have substantial and significant knock on effects on us too. I think we can safely conclude a majority in Germany and Spain were enthusiastic about EU membership, whilst a minority of France and Italy were enthusiastic about membership of the EU last summer. I agree a collapse of the EU would be very harmful to the UK, not least because we are so dependant on the EU for food.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 16:11:35 GMT
Some other Redfield & Wilton Strategies poll results (polling last Summer, excluding DKs): How would you vote in a referendum on your country's membership of the European Union held in the near future? Germany - stay 67%, leave 20% Italy - stay 43%, leave 31% France - stay 47%, leave 22% Spain - stay 63%, leave 21% How would you vote in a referendum on your country's membership of the Eurozone held in the near future? Germany - stay 70%, leave 19% Italy - stay 41%, leave 31% France - stay 47%, leave 21% Spain - stay 64%, leave 24% I often read a lot on these pages about how the EU is literally going down in flames and such like! Or increasing confidence that some country or other is going to leave. It's just wishful thinking on the part of Brexiteers who want to see it fall apart. Never quite sure why. They've got what they wanted. Why wish ill on anyone else? Any collapse of the EU will have substantial and significant knock on effects on us too. I think we can safely conclude a majority in Germany and Spain were enthusiastic about EU membership, whilst a minority of France and Italy were enthusiastic about membership of the EU last summer. I agree a collapse of the EU would be very harmful to the UK, not least because we are so dependant on the EU for food. Possibly, although that doesn't include don't knows, so the only real conclusions are that, of those who expressed an opinion one way or another, there were significantly more in each country who preferred the stay option over leaving for both membership as a whole and the eurozone. I expect the coronavirus vaccine farce has had an impact on those figures since, although they are catching us up.
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Post by mrcoke on May 6, 2021 16:22:26 GMT
I think there is a world of difference between my words " the day will come" and your words " soon turn".The previous poster is right, but I cannot sit by and let misleading posts go by, nor people posting things I am supposed to have said that I haven't. As I repeatedly have said, I never entered this debate on Brexit prior to the referendum. I could see both sides were trying to mislead and lie to the publican 2016. My campaign since the referendum has been because of the continued efforts of those who have tried to reverse the will of the people, to continue to distort statistics, and try and undermine Brexit because it does not suit their selfish ends. Today's BBC News is another example with comments arising from an American diplomats comments that " It will take years to agree a trade agreement with the USA ". Of course it will, it always does. As I pointed out yesterday the EU and India have been in discussion on and off since 2007. Even if a trade agreement is reached, it does not automatically mean increased trade. That depends on individual companies seeking to trade; at the end of the day governments don't do any trading themselves (thank God) they facilitate companies taking advantage of commercial opportunities such as reduced tariffs, quotas, taxes, red tape, etc. Something UK companies are very good at. Yes, I thought you'd probably row back on that a little! OK, so at some undefined point in the future, you have full confidence that Ireland will turn against the EU That fair enough? I think you can stop campaigning! Brexit is done and the fallout is now upon us, and nothing anyone writes or says will change that. However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to continue to see whether what was promised as a result of Brexit pans out. Only six months in but, so far, it's not looking great. We're agreed on Ireland. I am campaigning against the constant lies and distortions propagated by anti Brexiteers. I am satisfied with Brexit in that we have broken free of laws made by Brussels enforced by a European Court and no longer on a ship travelling towards a European united states. We are free to make our own laws like USA, Australia, Canada, Japan etc. Laws made by a parliament elected by the British people. I refute that it is bad for the UK economy in the long term and have always conceded that there will short term adverse impacts of leaving a customs union that has been getting tighter and tighter for the last 40 years. When we joined the EEC, Commonwealth countries had to go through huge change having lost much of their UK market. We will have to go through a similar change, but start from a position of having an existing large degree of business with the EU and a trade deal.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 7, 2021 6:42:25 GMT
Yes, I thought you'd probably row back on that a little! OK, so at some undefined point in the future, you have full confidence that Ireland will turn against the EU That fair enough? I think you can stop campaigning! Brexit is done and the fallout is now upon us, and nothing anyone writes or says will change that. However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to continue to see whether what was promised as a result of Brexit pans out. Only six months in but, so far, it's not looking great. We're agreed on Ireland. I am campaigning against the constant lies and distortions propagated by anti Brexiteers. I am satisfied with Brexit in that we have broken free of laws made by Brussels enforced by a European Court and no longer on a ship travelling towards a European united states. We are free to make our own laws like USA, Australia, Canada, Japan etc. Laws made by a parliament elected by the British people. I refute that it is bad for the UK economy in the long term and have always conceded that there will short term adverse impacts of leaving a customs union that has been getting tighter and tighter for the last 40 years. When we joined the EEC, Commonwealth countries had to go through huge change having lost much of their UK market. We will have to go through a similar change, but start from a position of having an existing large degree of business with the EU and a trade deal. I'm not sure the lies and distortions are anything other than exposures of the realities of leaving, which will become more and more apparent over the forthcoming years, but if you're expecting sunlit uplands I guess they must seem that way.
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Post by lawrieleslie on May 7, 2021 9:46:57 GMT
We're agreed on Ireland. I am campaigning against the constant lies and distortions propagated by anti Brexiteers. I am satisfied with Brexit in that we have broken free of laws made by Brussels enforced by a European Court and no longer on a ship travelling towards a European united states. We are free to make our own laws like USA, Australia, Canada, Japan etc. Laws made by a parliament elected by the British people. I refute that it is bad for the UK economy in the long term and have always conceded that there will short term adverse impacts of leaving a customs union that has been getting tighter and tighter for the last 40 years. When we joined the EEC, Commonwealth countries had to go through huge change having lost much of their UK market. We will have to go through a similar change, but start from a position of having an existing large degree of business with the EU and a trade deal. I'm not sure the lies and distortions are anything other than exposures of the realities of leaving, which will become more and more apparent over the forthcoming years, but if you're expecting sunlit uplands I guess they must seem that way. So what would be your stance in a few years if the realities of leaving have been a great success and the country is prospering? No doom mongering just a straight answer to this hypothetical question.
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Post by riverman on May 7, 2021 12:15:28 GMT
Yes, I thought you'd probably row back on that a little! OK, so at some undefined point in the future, you have full confidence that Ireland will turn against the EU That fair enough? I think you can stop campaigning! Brexit is done and the fallout is now upon us, and nothing anyone writes or says will change that. However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to continue to see whether what was promised as a result of Brexit pans out. Only six months in but, so far, it's not looking great. We're agreed on Ireland. I am campaigning against the constant lies and distortions propagated by anti Brexiteers. I am satisfied with Brexit in that we have broken free of laws made by Brussels enforced by a European Court and no longer on a ship travelling towards a European united states. We are free to make our own laws like USA, Australia, Canada, Japan etc. Laws made by a parliament elected by the British people. I refute that it is bad for the UK economy in the long term and have always conceded that there will short term adverse impacts of leaving a customs union that has been getting tighter and tighter for the last 40 years. When we joined the EEC, Commonwealth countries had to go through huge change having lost much of their UK market. We will have to go through a similar change, but start from a position of having an existing large degree of business with the EU and a trade deal. Just as a matter of interest could you clarify which European laws you didn't like and which laws we were not free to make ourselves.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 7, 2021 14:24:36 GMT
I'm not sure the lies and distortions are anything other than exposures of the realities of leaving, which will become more and more apparent over the forthcoming years, but if you're expecting sunlit uplands I guess they must seem that way. So what would be your stance in a few years if the realities of leaving have been a great success and the country is prospering? No doom mongering just a straight answer to this hypothetical question. Then Brexit will have been the right choice for the UK. Or possibly England and Wales, depending on what happens to Scotland and NI. Likewise, by the time the Tory Party is no longer in power (if ever!) we're probably talking about 20 years of Conservative government. So, if by the end of that time, schools, hospitals, social care and transport have improved, environmental standards have improved, poverty and inequality have declined, working conditions have got better etc, then you can equally say that the Conservative government has done a good job. By anyone's take two decades is enough to sort out the country's problems, right? Traditionally, they're not the things that they give much of a shit about, so I'd be surprised, but you never know.
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Post by 4372 on May 7, 2021 22:43:43 GMT
1) I notice you have move off the topic of immigration control and changed to freedom of movement in the EU and that thorny subject of warfare. So I assume you agree that when the UK was part of the EU any European citizen can cross borders as freely as you and I cross county boundaries". But don't forget Wales, Scotland, and both parts of Ireland. Have we stopped the Irish entering the UK?
I have not moved off the topic of immigration control and changed to freedom of movement in the EU. Two separate points. Firstly, it is simply not true to say that the UK could not control immigration while it was in the EU. I will challenge that particular assertion whenever I see it. Secondly, as far as I know, the UK and Ireland have shared a free travel area for nearly 100 years, well before the EU was contemplated.
2) Would that your picture be as complete as you post it. The type of freedom you describe is only enjoyed by a small priviledged minority of the population of Europe. The reality is most movement of European citizens is millions of Eastern and Southern Europeans, mainly the young, having to leave their homelands to find work. Still leaving high unemployment in their countries. You mention Madrid, do you know what the unemployment of the young is in Spain? Is this the European dream of a "better continent"? In the case of the UK during EU membership we have seen the collapse of manufacturing and the wholesale movement of business from the North to the South East and M4 corridor. How many people do you know have had to move south to find work; I know lots. Is it any wonder the people of North Staffs and Sedgefield voted Tory?
I have read over the past few years several contributors on here writing about unemployment in various European countries. Not really sure what you or I are going to do about the internal affairs of a sovereign country.
3) London has one of the highest populations of French people of any city in the world. There are only a few French cities with a higher population of French people. Are they all packing their bags and leaving the UK? Some will no doubt, but I expect the vast majority will stay.
And I am sure that you will acknowledge that people lead complex lives and will be unable to move to another country even if they wanted to. That does not mean that they are happy to stay here.
4) I think you are on very thin ice raising the subject of warfare in Europe. Firstly you ignore events in the Balkans post 1945, which the rest of Europe stood back from. I do not believe you have to have a customs union or political union to avoid war. Interdependence of economies through freedom of trade probably goes 90% of the way to ensuring peace. A great many countries have successfully maintained their neutrality such as Switzerland, Sweden, Ireland, Portugal and others. Even fascist Spain maintained its neutrality in WWII. Many countries tried to avoid getting embroiled in war such as The Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, etc. but were invaded by an aggressor. I'll leave it to you to decide who were the aggressors since 1500. Peace is not the perogative of government from Brussels.
Clearly I am not on thin ice here.
• The events in the Balkans had nothing to do directly with the EU. The Balkan countries did not start to join the EU until the last 30 years. Countries joining the EU agree to resolve differences peacefully.
• I think you will find that the earlier forms of the EU developed an interdependence of trade and economies specifically to help prevent a repeat of WW1 and WW2, and the immense cost in human lives and misery.
• Indeed, some countries have maintained their independence. Portugal was not independent In WW1 by the way. Britain however has a history of diplomatic alliances, entanglements and interventions with European countries.
• If you can show me where I ever wrote that “Peace is not the prerogative of government from Brussels” , I would be obliged. • Indeed 30 million died. They died, for the most part, in conflicts between Kings, Emperors princes and religious leaders. There were no substantial developed democracies amongst the major European powers before 1914, so most of those people died fighting for ideas they had no say in. As democracies have developed, and especially since 1945, the people of the EU have chosen to embrace the ideals of friendship and cooperation. Not really understanding your point about the death camps, but I am fairly sure that by 1940 Nazi Germany was not a representative democracy.
You mention 30 million died. How many of those died fighting freedom from oppression? How many died in the death camps? The root of the problem was a small minority wishing to impose their view of what the world should be, on the majority. Does that sound familiar?
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Post by mrcoke on May 7, 2021 23:35:46 GMT
1) I notice you have move off the topic of immigration control and changed to freedom of movement in the EU and that thorny subject of warfare. So I assume you agree that when the UK was part of the EU any European citizen can cross borders as freely as you and I cross county boundaries". But don't forget Wales, Scotland, and both parts of Ireland. Have we stopped the Irish entering the UK? I have not moved off the topic of immigration control and changed to freedom of movement in the EU. Two separate points. Firstly, it is simply not true to say that the UK could not control immigration while it was in the EU. I will challenge that particular assertion whenever I see it. Secondly, as far as I know, the UK and Ireland have shared a free travel area for nearly 100 years, well before the EU was contemplated. EU member countries cannot control immigration apart from people who prove a burden.fullfact.org/europe/immigration-eu-referendum/My point on free travel with Ireland is we still have it despite leaving the EU.2) Would that your picture be as complete as you post it. The type of freedom you describe is only enjoyed by a small priviledged minority of the population of Europe. The reality is most movement of European citizens is millions of Eastern and Southern Europeans, mainly the young, having to leave their homelands to find work. Still leaving high unemployment in their countries. You mention Madrid, do you know what the unemployment of the young is in Spain? Is this the European dream of a "better continent"? In the case of the UK during EU membership we have seen the collapse of manufacturing and the wholesale movement of business from the North to the South East and M4 corridor. How many people do you know have had to move south to find work; I know lots. Is it any wonder the people of North Staffs and Sedgefield voted Tory? I have read over the past few years several contributors on here writing about unemployment in various European countries. Not really sure what you or I are going to do about the internal affairs of a sovereign country. Agreed there is nothing we can do. The sad thing is that there is little Greece an Spain and others can do because they are governed by EU rules and have to stick to the Euro, which is the cause of the unemployment.. 3) London has one of the highest populations of French people of any city in the world. There are only a few French cities with a higher population of French people. Are they all packing their bags and leaving the UK? Some will no doubt, but I expect the vast majority will stay. And I am sure that you will acknowledge that people lead complex lives and will be unable to move to another country even if they wanted to. That does not mean that they are happy to stay here. 4) I think you are on very thin ice raising the subject of warfare in Europe. Firstly you ignore events in the Balkans post 1945, which the rest of Europe stood back from. I do not believe you have to have a customs union or political union to avoid war. Interdependence of economies through freedom of trade probably goes 90% of the way to ensuring peace. A great many countries have successfully maintained their neutrality such as Switzerland, Sweden, Ireland, Portugal and others. Even fascist Spain maintained its neutrality in WWII. Many countries tried to avoid getting embroiled in war such as The Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, etc. but were invaded by an aggressor. I'll leave it to you to decide who were the aggressors since 1500. Peace is not the perogative of government from Brussels. Clearly I am not on thin ice here. • The events in the Balkans had nothing to do directly with the EU. The Balkan countries did not start to join the EU until the last 30 years. Countries joining the EU agree to resolve differences peacefully. • I think you will find that the earlier forms of the EU developed an interdependence of trade and economies specifically to help prevent a repeat of WW1 and WW2, and the immense cost in human lives and misery. Agreed, that is my point. I am all in favour of trade but not government by Brussels. • Indeed, some countries have maintained their independence. Portugal was not independent In WW1 by the way. Britain however has a history of diplomatic alliances, entanglements and interventions with European countries. • If you can show me where I ever wrote that “Peace is not the prerogative of government from Brussels” , I would be obliged. I didn't say you did. It is inferred by you that peace depends on maintaining an EU • Indeed 30 million died. They died, for the most part, in conflicts between Kings, Emperors princes and religious leaders. There were no substantial developed democracies amongst the major European powers before 1914, so most of those people died fighting for ideas they had no say in. As democracies have developed, and especially since 1945, the people of the EU have chosen to embrace the ideals of friendship and cooperation. Not really understanding your point about the death camps, but I am fairly sure that by 1940 Nazi Germany was not a representative democracy. No it wasn't, neither was Franco's Spain, or Mussolini's Italy, or Vichy France.You mention 30 million died. How many of those died fighting freedom from oppression? How many died in the death camps? The root of the problem was a small minority wishing to impose their view of what the world should be, on the majority. Does that sound familiar? See my remarks in blue
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Post by 4372 on May 8, 2021 7:32:22 GMT
1) If the UK and Ireland have a 100 year old free travel agreement, made independently of the EU, why would leaving the EU change that at all?
2) I am not as au fait with modern economies as you are yourself. My point is that various countries of the EU agreed to come together to pool their currencies. That is their sovereign decision. I don't know though to what extent that decision has helped or hindered economic development in those countries. I remember Greece being referred to as a "basket case" economy 50 years ago.
3) I simply do not accept the concept of "government by Brussels". The UK managed to keep it's own currency, and level of co-operation of freedom of movement, inter alia. Other sovereign states have similar opt-out rights. Where you see "government by Brussels" I see an attempt to harmonise initiatives and raise standards for all of us.
4) We managed hundreds of years of warfare between European powers up to 1945, and next to no conflict between the same powers since that date, and you think that the EU (in it's various forms) had nothing to do with this.
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Post by jonah77 on May 8, 2021 7:52:34 GMT
1) If the UK and Ireland have a 100 year old free travel agreement, made independently of the EU, why would leaving the EU change that at all? 2) I am not as au fait with modern economies as you are yourself. My point is that various countries of the EU agreed to come together to pool their currencies. That is their sovereign decision. I don't know though to what extent that decision has helped or hindered economic development in those countries. I remember Greece being referred to as a "basket case" economy 50 years ago. 3) I simply do not accept the concept of "government by Brussels". The UK managed to keep it's own currency, and level of co-operation of freedom of movement, inter alia. Other sovereign states have similar opt-out rights. Where you see "government by Brussels" I see an attempt to harmonise initiatives and raise standards for all of us. 4) We managed hundreds of years of warfare between European powers up to 1945, and next to no conflict between the same powers since that date, and you think that the EU (in it's various forms) had nothing to do with this. I think NATO and the huge U.S. nuclear arsenal had much more to do with peace in Europe than the eu.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 8, 2021 7:58:07 GMT
1) If the UK and Ireland have a 100 year old free travel agreement, made independently of the EU, why would leaving the EU change that at all? 2) I am not as au fait with modern economies as you are yourself. My point is that various countries of the EU agreed to come together to pool their currencies. That is their sovereign decision. I don't know though to what extent that decision has helped or hindered economic development in those countries. I remember Greece being referred to as a "basket case" economy 50 years ago. 3) I simply do not accept the concept of "government by Brussels". The UK managed to keep it's own currency, and level of co-operation of freedom of movement, inter alia. Other sovereign states have similar opt-out rights. Where you see "government by Brussels" I see an attempt to harmonise initiatives and raise standards for all of us. 4) We managed hundreds of years of warfare between European powers up to 1945, and next to no conflict between the same powers since that date, and you think that the EU (in it's various forms) had nothing to do with this. I think NATO and the huge U.S. nuclear arsenal had much more to do with peace in Europe than the eu. It's quite obviously both. On the whole, countries rarely go to war with those that they have strengthened economic and political ties with, which applies to membership of NATO and the EU.
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Post by 4372 on May 8, 2021 8:26:51 GMT
This has been dealt with before. NATO was set up to deal with the threat to Europe from the USSR primarily. The EU evolved from a desire to maintain peace and prosperity between european states which were formerly enemies. It is as Rednwhitenblue says
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Post by mrcoke on May 8, 2021 8:46:33 GMT
1) If the UK and Ireland have a 100 year old free travel agreement, made independently of the EU, why would leaving the EU change that at all? 2) I am not as au fait with modern economies as you are yourself. My point is that various countries of the EU agreed to come together to pool their currencies. That is their sovereign decision. I don't know though to what extent that decision has helped or hindered economic development in those countries. I remember Greece being referred to as a "basket case" economy 50 years ago. 3) I simply do not accept the concept of "government by Brussels". The UK managed to keep it's own currency, and level of co-operation of freedom of movement, inter alia. Other sovereign states have similar opt-out rights. Where you see "government by Brussels" I see an attempt to harmonise initiatives and raise standards for all of us. 4) We managed hundreds of years of warfare between European powers up to 1945, and next to no conflict between the same powers since that date, and you think that the EU (in it's various forms) had nothing to do with this. We are going round in circles, but I will repeat my opinions: !. My point regarding free travel with Ireland is we have had it for 100 years, before and after being members of the EU, so what is to prevent us having free travel with any other EU country if both countries wish. You do not have to be in the EU to have free travel between countries, so it is not a reason for EU membership or justification for giving up sovereignty. It is not an advantage per se of EU membership. 2. It is a sovereignty decision to join the EU. If the UK wanted to re-join the EU now it would be required to give up the £. There is no formal agreed process for a country to give up the Euro and remain in the EU under present rules. The Greek financial crisis started in 2009 when the world first realized that Greece could default on its debt. There is clear intent in the EU that all member countries will eventually have to join the EU. Brussels was biding its time to the right time to force the UK to join the Euro zone. 3. We shall have to differ. I would just point out that between 1990 and 2017, 52,741 laws were introduced in the UK as a result of EU legislation since 1990, according to the Legal business of Thomson Reuters, the world’s leading source of intelligent information for businesses and professionals. These include: - the minimum VAT on energy must be 15%. The UK government had set a 5% VAT rate on solar panels, but was forced by the European Court of Justice to increase the tax. No reason was given, but the EU was formed out of the EEC, which in turn was former out of the European Coal an Steel Community which still holds a powerful lobby in brussels to prevent coal being disadvantaged against renewable energy. - rogue bananas with “malformations and abnormal curvature” are banned; an example of the many loony laws we have to comply with. - In 2011 the EU banned drink manufactures from claiming that water can prevent dehydration. - all sanitary protection in the EU have to be charged a VAT of five percent, the lowest rate permissible under EU VAT rules. (You will be pleased to know that the UK began 2021 by abolishing VAT on women’s sanitary products, and joined the list of countries that do not impose this tax, including India, Australia and Canada.) - Under EU fishing laws, if the wrong sort of fish are caught they must be returned to the sea. This results in many tonnes of dead fish being thrown away. - The EU banned member states from selling halogen light bulbs, replacing them with LEDs on the grounds of efficiency. But since the halogen ban was introduced, scientific studies have found LED lights can permanently damage eyesight and disturb natural sleep rhythms. Last year the French Agency for Food, Environmental and Occupational Health and Safety warned the “blue light” emitted from LEDs can lead to “irreversible loss of retinal cells and diminished sharpness of vision”. - In 2010 the EU banned the use of imperial measurements (feet, inches, pounds etc) and instead only allowed the use of metric units (metres, kilograms).As a result goods sold loose by weight were required to be sold in grams and kilograms. Traders are allowed to display weights and prices in both imperial and metric but not in imperial only. You are correct - it is harmonization - to a single European state. It is not about raising standards, it is about Germany* and France ensuring everyone else has to conform to the same standards to maintain a level playing field to ensure the sustainability of German and French commerce. The next step is to harmonize Corporation Tax to ensure countries like Ireland cannot gain an advantage by low tax. * Edit: 9 May 21 www.briefingsforbritain.co.uk/angela-merkel-the-end-of-hopey-changey-eu/4. You are correct in saying there has been peace post WWII, we had no war before Maastricht Treaty created the EU in 1992, followed by Lisbon in 2007. So what is your justification for Maastricht? War has been prevented by economic inter-dependence, not a Brussels government, and other alliances/treaties.
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Post by 4372 on May 8, 2021 9:31:56 GMT
As you say, we will not agree this issue. You can write lists about where you think the EU has gone wrong. I think the more important feature, by far, is the change it has helped to bring about international relations, meaning that there has been no war between European powers since 1945,in contrast to the two world wars, largely caused by relations between those same powers, in the first half of the last century. How do you quantify the cost of WW1 and WW2, when you set it against the cost of maintaining peace in the years after 1945? For me,the value of people being able to live their lives in peace and harmony with their neighbours is far greater than the cost each country is required to pay. For me, this will always be about people's lives, not about any number of EU initiatives or economic measures that you can quote.
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Post by 4372 on May 9, 2021 15:18:25 GMT
Happy Europe Day 2021
The "Europe Day" of the EU was introduced in 1985 by the European Communities (the predecessor organisation of the EU).The date commemorates Schumann Declaration of 9 May 1950, put forward by Robert Schuman, which proposed the pooling of French and West German coal and steel industries. This led to the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, the first European Community, established on 18 April 1951.
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