|
Post by followyoudown on Jan 28, 2021 19:37:04 GMT
I think you are wibbling again, the chinese government are currently running concentration camps, that same government is investing in the eu directly or indirectly through the companies that they control, a trade deal between India and Britain involves eliminating tariffs on goods / services between the two countries for private owned companies. UK companies also have an obligation to ensure none of their subsidiaries or anyone in their supply chain is involved in modern slavery so there should not be any taking advantage of working practices in india. I see nothing hypocritical there. The Indian regime is accused of detaining and killing thousands of Kashmiri’s over the years by the same human rights organisations that accuse China. There is clear evidence of mass graves that have been found in villages across the region. There is now pretty much a total news blackout and no journalists are allowed in or out so who knows what’s currently going on? I know China is everyone’s primary focus right now despite us actively courting their business over the years, but both regimes have plenty of blood on their hands....... Yes I am fully aware of that the difference is a trade deal with india would be for the benefit of indian and british companies, a trade deal with china brings a direct benefit for the chinese communist party.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 28, 2021 20:06:22 GMT
The Indian regime is accused of detaining and killing thousands of Kashmiri’s over the years by the same human rights organisations that accuse China. There is clear evidence of mass graves that have been found in villages across the region. There is now pretty much a total news blackout and no journalists are allowed in or out so who knows what’s currently going on? I know China is everyone’s primary focus right now despite us actively courting their business over the years, but both regimes have plenty of blood on their hands....... Yes I am fully aware of that the difference is a trade deal with india would be for the benefit of indian and british companies, a trade deal with china brings a direct benefit for the chinese communist party. That makes no sense though as it clearly benefits British companies dealing with China irrespective of your opinion on their regime?
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jan 28, 2021 20:22:52 GMT
Yes I am fully aware of that the difference is a trade deal with india would be for the benefit of indian and british companies, a trade deal with china brings a direct benefit for the chinese communist party. That makes no sense though as it clearly benefits British companies dealing with China irrespective of your opinion on their regime? They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party but lets take your argument to the logical conclusion no more chinese students in the uk, no more indian staff for the nhs or anywhere else in the uk or maybe you could understand the people its the trading with the regime not the people that is the problem.....
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 28, 2021 20:27:46 GMT
That makes no sense though as it clearly benefits British companies dealing with China irrespective of your opinion on their regime? They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party but lets take your argument to the logical conclusion no more chinese students in the uk, no more indian staff for the nhs or anywhere else in the uk or maybe you could understand the people its the trading with the regime not the people that is the problem..... Always about irrelevant technicalities with you isn't it. Money trickles down to the people or up to the ruling party in either case. You're an expert on tax apparently so you should understand that. Your supposed differences make no sense when you consider the bigger picture. You either apply morality to all, or don't bother. It's that simple.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 28, 2021 20:44:33 GMT
That makes no sense though as it clearly benefits British companies dealing with China irrespective of your opinion on their regime? They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party but lets take your argument to the logical conclusion no more chinese students in the uk, no more indian staff for the nhs or anywhere else in the uk or maybe you could understand the people its the trading with the regime not the people that is the problem..... That’s not what I’m arguing though. I was simply wondering why one regime accused of atrocities is more preferable than another?
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jan 28, 2021 20:50:36 GMT
They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party but lets take your argument to the logical conclusion no more chinese students in the uk, no more indian staff for the nhs or anywhere else in the uk or maybe you could understand the people its the trading with the regime not the people that is the problem..... Always about irrelevant technicalities with you isn't it. Money trickles down to the people or up to the ruling party in either case. You're an expert on tax apparently so you should understand that. Your supposed differences make no sense when you consider the bigger picture. You either apply morality to all, or don't bother. It's that simple. What an absolutely weird take it must be very dull leaving in such a black and white world like you but then you have stated you're happy with a china investment / trade deal fair enough, as I said you can find a government doing something objectionable in most countries, genecide and disappearing people is normally a red line for most people.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jan 28, 2021 20:58:09 GMT
They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party but lets take your argument to the logical conclusion no more chinese students in the uk, no more indian staff for the nhs or anywhere else in the uk or maybe you could understand the people its the trading with the regime not the people that is the problem..... That’s not what I’m arguing though. I was simply wondering why one regime accused of atrocities is more preferable than another? I dont have a preference for either regime if you don't want to recognise the difference between a trade deal with India and a trade deal with china because of the way the chinese communist party controls and owns companies / the economy I dont know how many other ways I can explain it to you.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 28, 2021 21:05:36 GMT
That’s not what I’m arguing though. I was simply wondering why one regime accused of atrocities is more preferable than another? I dont have a preference for either regime if you don't want to recognise the difference between a trade deal with India and a trade deal with china because of the way the chinese communist party controls and owns companies / the economy I dont know how many other ways I can explain it to you. You haven’t explained it at all, and judging by your extremely simplistic view of the Chinese economy I wouldn’t bother trying either......
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 28, 2021 21:06:43 GMT
"They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party"...
..."because of the way the chinese communist party controls and owns companies / the economy"
All over the place on this one, FYD!
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 28, 2021 21:12:27 GMT
Always about irrelevant technicalities with you isn't it. Money trickles down to the people or up to the ruling party in either case. You're an expert on tax apparently so you should understand that. Your supposed differences make no sense when you consider the bigger picture. You either apply morality to all, or don't bother. It's that simple. What an absolutely weird take it must be very dull leaving in such a black and white world like you but then you have stated you're happy with a china investment / trade deal fair enough, as I said you can find a government doing something objectionable in most countries, genecide and disappearing people is normally a red line for most people. By your logic that makes you okay with the systematic gang rape of minors. Whatever rocks FYDs boat I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 28, 2021 21:24:19 GMT
"They would generally sell to individual chinese customers not to the chinese communist party"... ..."because of the way the chinese communist party controls and owns companies / the economy" All over the place on this one, FYD! Lessons on morality from someone who's happy to let kids starve in the UK. Couldn't make this shit up.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Jan 28, 2021 21:40:41 GMT
That’s not what I’m arguing though. I was simply wondering why one regime accused of atrocities is more preferable than another? I dont have a preference for either regime if you don't want to recognise the difference between a trade deal with India and a trade deal with china because of the way the chinese communist party controls and owns companies / the economy I dont know how many other ways I can explain it to you. Here's an interesting article touching on the subject of Brexit, our relationship with the USA and trade with India and China... This is just the start of the Brussels-Britain bust-ups. The article notes that while the relationship with the EU is a little rocky just now, the relationship with the new Joe Biden administration has started well with some interesting developments in the pipeline. It seems there is some unaminity in the approach to trade between the US and the UK in respect of working more closely with India and somewhat less so with China. This looks like becoming manifest in the G7 becoming the D10 bringing India, Australia and North Korea into that exclusive group. Not quite what many folk were predicting when BoJo's pal left office. It's a funny old world!
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 28, 2021 21:42:42 GMT
I’m not even going to click on the link and I already know it’s from The Spectator......
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jan 28, 2021 22:31:36 GMT
500 jobs to go as GKN closes automotive factory.
GKN is planning to shut an automotive factory in Birmingham with the loss of 500 jobs. The company’s Chester Road plant, which produces car drivetrains, is expected to end production in mid-2022, with its work likely to move to Europe.
A lack of competitiveness was blamed for the proposed closure by GKN. A spokesman for the company said: “This is a difficult decision which has been made despite significant effort and investment over the past 10 years to reduce the high operating costs at the assembly site in Birmingham’s Erdington area. “Sadly, an increasingly competitive global market means that the site is no longer viable.”
Brexit is also likely to have been a factor, Professor David Bailey (Birmingham University) said: “You have components coming into the factory to be assembled into drivetrains, before going into to British car factories. “Even though we have a Brexit deal, the non-tariff barriers such as extra paperwork might mean that it was just not worth it in the long term, with car companies operating just-in-time models that can’t afford delays."
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jan 29, 2021 11:11:10 GMT
As I've posted repeatedly, with such a massive upheaval in business there are bound to be winners and losers. Despite the project fear of the Cameron government (I see one of our daily rags now saying Cameron had his reservations about the EU, pitty he didn't say that in 2016), BoE, CBI, NFU, BBC, Channel 4, House of Lords, etc., etc., the British people had the instinctive good sense to vote to leave the EU, which is dominated by the greed of massive international corporations (particularly German and French ones), who dominate policy making in Brussels and care little for the people or for the south European countries. With the recession due to the pandemic, where are the east and south European young people going to find work with the Euro having destroyed their own economies and the collapse of tourism. Youth unemployment in Spain was at appalling levels before the pandemic. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/29/eu-not-fit-for-purpose-to-reduce-poverty-in-europe-says-un-envoywww.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2020-005461_EN.html#:~:text=Eurostat%20recently%20published%20figures%20showing,the%20EU%20average%20of%2017.6%25. The solution is simple. The EU should break up and get rid of the parliament, ECJ, and commission and revert to independant sovereign countries, each with their own currency and reform a proper free trade association.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Jan 29, 2021 14:32:59 GMT
So the line "best reasonable efforts" as far as the vaccine goes all of a sudden is binding and phrases like "the UK starting a vaccine war" the true face of the EU. Thank god were out....emotional blackmail and rhetoric to cover for their own failings.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 29, 2021 14:40:34 GMT
So the line "best reasonable efforts" as far as the vaccine goes all of a sudden is binding and phrases like "the UK starting a vaccine war" the true face of the EU. Thank god were out....emotional blackmail and rhetoric to cover for their own failings. And yet the same standards of scrutiny didn't seem to apply to our own government back in 2019 or even now...! I wonder why not?
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Jan 29, 2021 14:55:09 GMT
So the line "best reasonable efforts" as far as the vaccine goes all of a sudden is binding and phrases like "the UK starting a vaccine war" the true face of the EU. Thank god were out....emotional blackmail and rhetoric to cover for their own failings. And yet the same standards of scrutiny didn't seem to apply to our own government back in 2019 or even now...! I wonder why not? I don't know what I do know is I voted the way I wanted not because I was tricked.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 29, 2021 14:56:57 GMT
Don't see any reason for the EU to break up.
Now more than ever European countries need to stick together while the worlds largest and fastest growing economies are exerting influence and jostling for territory.
Aside from the largest economies no country can go it alone, and a lone UK will not be able to say 'no' to the likes of China and the USA. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to get some perspective.
Vis Unita Fortior.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 29, 2021 15:03:10 GMT
And yet the same standards of scrutiny didn't seem to apply to our own government back in 2019 or even now...! I wonder why not? I don't know what I do know is I voted the way I wanted not because I was tricked. tbh mate, I'm a little surprised by how you voted since you have a son living in Germany and seem to like the country. Then again, you're pretty old so I shouldn't really be surprised Note: I'm joking about the age thing before anyone starts accusing me of stereotyping.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Jan 29, 2021 15:10:10 GMT
I don't know what I do know is I voted the way I wanted not because I was tricked. tbh mate, I'm a little surprised by how you voted since you have a son living in Germany and seem to like the country. Then again, you're pretty old so I shouldn't really be surprised Note: I'm joking about the age thing before anyone starts accusing me of stereotyping. I don't confuse European countries with the EU. They are two separate entities i love Europe, I love visiting Europe im proud to have a German "family" i just wanted to be governed by people I can vote out if they're shit or I don't agree with their policies. Might not be everyone's cup of tea or what anyone else might want plus I'm not that old lol although it is my birthday on Monday and what I significant date that is Jan 31st🙂
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 29, 2021 15:21:27 GMT
tbh mate, I'm a little surprised by how you voted since you have a son living in Germany and seem to like the country. Then again, you're pretty old so I shouldn't really be surprised Note: I'm joking about the age thing before anyone starts accusing me of stereotyping. I don't confuse European countries with the EU. They are two separate entities i love Europe, I love visiting Europe im proud to have a German "family" i just wanted to be governed by people I can vote out if they're shit or I don't agree with their policies. Might not be everyone's cup of tea or what anyone else might want plus I'm not that old lol although it is my birthday on Monday and what I significant date that is Jan 31st🙂 I don't see what's so significant about Leicester playing Leeds mate. Is there something you want to tell us?
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jan 29, 2021 15:54:45 GMT
tbh mate, I'm a little surprised by how you voted since you have a son living in Germany and seem to like the country. Then again, you're pretty old so I shouldn't really be surprised Note: I'm joking about the age thing before anyone starts accusing me of stereotyping. I don't confuse European countries with the EU. They are two separate entities i love Europe, I love visiting Europe im proud to have a German "family" i just wanted to be governed by people I can vote out if they're shit or I don't agree with their policies. Might not be everyone's cup of tea or what anyone else might want plus I'm not that old lol although it is my birthday on Monday and what I significant date that is Jan 31st🙂 Absolutely right franklin. I had many great working colleagues who were French, German, Belgian, and Dutch. I was very humbled by the presents I received from my Dutch colleagues when I retired. I was deeply upset when a Belgian colleague of mine was mugged in Paris just a few minutes after we parted to go our separate ways home. Often amused by a German manager I served with on a European committee, who used to call me "the Colonel" because he said I looked like a typical English colonel. What a lot of EU Remainers do not understand is: 1. There is a huge difference between the EU and Europe. 2. It is not some cosy "club", or a free trade association. The fact that it has a parliament, CoJ, and ambassadors should speak volumes. 3. There are a great many EU citizens who are not just sceptical but deeply unhappy with the EU and they are ignored. 4. There are a number of countries' governments who are now getting disturbed by the EU budget, the unelected authoritarian Commission, the corruption and lack of effective auditing, and the EU leadership being under the sway of large business corporations.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jan 29, 2021 15:58:36 GMT
As I've posted repeatedly, with such a massive upheaval in business there are bound to be winners and losers. Despite the project fear of the Cameron government (I see one of our daily rags now saying Cameron had his reservations about the EU, pitty he didn't say that in 2016), BoE, CBI, NFU, BBC, Channel 4, House of Lords, etc., etc., the British people had the instinctive good sense to vote to leave the EU, which is dominated by the greed of massive international corporations (particularly German and French ones), who dominate policy making in Brussels and care little for the people or for the south European countries. No problems. Next time I drive past there, I will let the workers know your views. In the meantime, please consider refraining from sensationalism in your writing. *The British people did not vote to leave the EU. Just over half of the people who voted did so.
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 29, 2021 16:25:20 GMT
I don't confuse European countries with the EU. They are two separate entities i love Europe, I love visiting Europe im proud to have a German "family" i just wanted to be governed by people I can vote out if they're shit or I don't agree with their policies. Might not be everyone's cup of tea or what anyone else might want plus I'm not that old lol although it is my birthday on Monday and what I significant date that is Jan 31st🙂 Absolutely right franklin. I had many great working colleagues who were French, German, Belgian, and Dutch. I was very humbled by the presents I received from my Dutch colleagues when I retired. I was deeply upset when a Belgian colleague of mine was mugged in Paris just a few minutes after we parted to go our separate ways home. Often amused by a German manager I served with on a European committee, who used to call me "the Colonel" because he said I looked like a typical English colonel. What a lot of EU Remainers do not understand is: 1. There is a huge difference between the EU and Europe. 2. It is not some cosy "club", or a free trade association. The fact that it has a parliament, CoJ, and ambassadors should speak volumes. 3. There are a great many EU citizens who are not just sceptical but deeply unhappy with the EU and they are ignored. 4. There are a number of countries' governments who are now getting disturbed by the EU budget, the unelected authoritarian Commission, the corruption and lack of effective auditing, and the EU leadership being under the sway of large business corporations. Don't think any remainers don't know the difference between the EU and Europe. But thanks for pointing that out. As stated in an earlier post, the EU provides its members with more protection from competitors than individual members would have and also allows them to negotiate better deals for the good of all members. The EU isn't perfect, but dealing with other nations as a bloc rather than going it alone is always going to give a better result. It's common sense. Strength in numbers. It's obvious that other nations (US under Trump for example) are trying and failing to divide and conquer the EU because they see it as a threat and they'd rather pick off the members one by one with unfavourable trade deals and influence.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Jan 29, 2021 16:32:04 GMT
Absolutely right franklin. I had many great working colleagues who were French, German, Belgian, and Dutch. I was very humbled by the presents I received from my Dutch colleagues when I retired. I was deeply upset when a Belgian colleague of mine was mugged in Paris just a few minutes after we parted to go our separate ways home. Often amused by a German manager I served with on a European committee, who used to call me "the Colonel" because he said I looked like a typical English colonel. What a lot of EU Remainers do not understand is: 1. There is a huge difference between the EU and Europe. 2. It is not some cosy "club", or a free trade association. The fact that it has a parliament, CoJ, and ambassadors should speak volumes. 3. There are a great many EU citizens who are not just sceptical but deeply unhappy with the EU and they are ignored. 4. There are a number of countries' governments who are now getting disturbed by the EU budget, the unelected authoritarian Commission, the corruption and lack of effective auditing, and the EU leadership being under the sway of large business corporations. Don't think any remainers don't know the difference between the EU and Europe. But thanks for pointing that out. As stated in an earlier post, the EU provides its members with more protection from competitors than individual members would have and also allows them to negotiate better deals for the good of all members. The EU isn't perfect, but dealing with other nations as a bloc rather than going it alone is always going to give a better result. It's common sense. Strength in numbers. It's obvious that other nations (US under Trump for example) are trying and failing to divide and conquer the EU because they see it as a threat and they'd rather pick off the members one by one with unfavourable trade deals and influence. Time will tell Foz if that correct or not we've signed several "trade" deals and have many more to come, one man's strength in numbers is another's restriction of trade. It stops competition in many ways and restricts choices. For me buy British has several advantages with carbon footprint local producer benefits local people etc 🤷♂️
|
|
|
Post by foster on Jan 29, 2021 16:40:15 GMT
Don't think any remainers don't know the difference between the EU and Europe. But thanks for pointing that out. As stated in an earlier post, the EU provides its members with more protection from competitors than individual members would have and also allows them to negotiate better deals for the good of all members. The EU isn't perfect, but dealing with other nations as a bloc rather than going it alone is always going to give a better result. It's common sense. Strength in numbers. It's obvious that other nations (US under Trump for example) are trying and failing to divide and conquer the EU because they see it as a threat and they'd rather pick off the members one by one with unfavourable trade deals and influence. Time will tell Foz if that correct or not we've signed several "trade" deals and have many more to come, one man's strength in numbers is another's restriction of trade. It stops competition in many ways and restricts choices. For me buy British has several advantages with carbon footprint local producer benefits local people etc 🤷♂️ I'm fully behind buying local and have stated that many times. Anything that's favourable for the planet gets my support. I must have have missed the memo when the ECJ said that wasn't allowed though Likewise the UK has already gone backwards with the use of harmful pesticides and not joining plastic waste initiatives. We don't even recycle properly.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Jan 29, 2021 16:47:38 GMT
Time will tell Foz if that correct or not we've signed several "trade" deals and have many more to come, one man's strength in numbers is another's restriction of trade. It stops competition in many ways and restricts choices. For me buy British has several advantages with carbon footprint local producer benefits local people etc 🤷♂️ I'm fully behind buying local and have stated that many times. Anything that's favourable for the planet gets my support. I must have have missed the memo when the ECJ said that wasn't allowed though Likewise the UK has already gone backwards with the use of harmful pesticides and not joining plastic waste initiatives. We don't even recycle properly. Its not banned but with the cheaper options its a no brainer maybe British produce might become more competitive. We really could go around in circles forever but the simple fact is its done and let's see what happens and look on the brightside. This thread should be mothballed and revisited in 5 or 10yrs time then we'll know how its worked out.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jan 29, 2021 16:55:18 GMT
What a lot of EU Remainers do not understand is: 1. There is a huge difference between the EU and Europe. 2. It is not some cosy "club", or a free trade association. The fact that it has a parliament, CoJ, and ambassadors should speak volumes. 3. There are a great many EU citizens who are not just sceptical but deeply unhappy with the EU and they are ignored. 4. There are a number of countries' governments who are now getting disturbed by the EU budget, the unelected authoritarian Commission, the corruption and lack of effective auditing, and the EU leadership being under the sway of large business corporations.
What a lot of Brexiteers do not understand is:
1) There is a lot of difference between the EU and Europe.
2) The EU is not some cosy “club” or free trade association. It has it’s origins in the years after WW2, when the leaders of a number of mainland Europe countries decided to try to avoid further wars breaking out between them, which had brought ruin to the continent twice in the preceding thirty years. It is about the people of Europe living in peace with each other.
3) There are millions of EU citizens whose lives have been enhanced by the progress made in the last seventy years. They have been free to travel across the continent, build a career in the knowledge that their professional qualification are recognised throughout member states. Many of us have benefited from such initiatives as the EHIC Card, and the Erasmus Programme.
4) I have no meaningful response to point 4. I could point to unelected Lords, huge government contracts given without scrutiny, and recent scandals such as the collapse of Carillion and the subsequent jeopardy into which half-finished hospitals in Liverpool and the West Midlands have fallen.
|
|
|
Post by harryburrows on Jan 29, 2021 16:57:48 GMT
Time will tell Foz if that correct or not we've signed several "trade" deals and have many more to come, one man's strength in numbers is another's restriction of trade. It stops competition in many ways and restricts choices. For me buy British has several advantages with carbon footprint local producer benefits local people etc 🤷♂️ I'm fully behind buying local and have stated that many times. Anything that's favourable for the planet gets my support. I must have have missed the memo when the ECJ said that wasn't allowed though Likewise the UK has already gone backwards with the use of harmful pesticides and not joining plastic waste initiatives. We don't even recycle properly. Tell me this Foster during our negotiations with the EU this past 4 years . Brussels were very keen to ensure we matched their environmental standards and workers rights . Before the ink was dry they rush to jump into bed with the worlds biggest polluter a nation known to use slave labour and genocide in its business model
|
|