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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 26, 2021 20:41:18 GMT
Oh don't get all lovey dovey on us. If the EU was making us look silly don't pretend you wouldn't be making the most of it 😉 We've had 4 years of remoaners telling us how fucked we'd be after leaving Europe. We were told we'd all get super gonorrhea and medicine shortages would be the norm. We were told the pound would fall of a cliff, that the Lib Dems and Labour would overthrow the biggest democratic vote in British history, that we'd end up isolated from the rest of the world. It was all lies, we knew they were lies and its becoming more obvious by the day that the UK will be a hugely successful nation outside of the boys (and gals) in Brussels ☺️ Love Europe. Hate the EU. Get Stoke back in European Cup games and we’d all be happy I'll agree with that 😊
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Post by muggleton on Jan 26, 2021 20:48:26 GMT
I think most people over 40, with a passing interest in politics, would acknowledge that Italy has changed it's governments about once a week for the last fifty years. Not entirely sure why it is good news that a vaccine trial has ended in failure. The footballification of politics, where cheering your side on is more important than even trying to understand the complexity of the issues. So its no surprise that the fella isn't familiar with Italian politics, just depressing how prevalent this sort of ignorance is. There are thoughtful Brexit supporters worth engaging and respectfully disagreeing with, then others who are best ignored. That's part of the tragedy of Brexit - guys consumed with anger and hatred over politics and history they don't understand. That rarely ends well.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 26, 2021 20:53:32 GMT
Holy fuck! 😂 Right on cue with my above post. This EU chaos just gets better. Admittedly I wish all my brothers in the EU the very best and of course safety above all, but you have to admit, it's getting kind of amusing? You can just imagine the fury on a hardcore remoaners face right now. It's really quite sad, and certainly a worry as it's the poor who suffer most when there is an economic recession. The crying shame is "Why didn't we stick with EFTA?" But no the politicians are on a crazed power trip and latterly pawns of giant corporations. The Euro has destroyed the economies of Italy, Greece, and created massive youth unemployment in Spain, long before the pandemic. But the Brussels bureaucrats are driven towards a "United States of Europe", as exemplified by last week's tantrum over the status of their ambassadors, boasting "We have a parliamenf and Court of Justice". Our own politicians like Major, Blair, and Cameron are sucked into the whirlpool of legislation, customs union, and even talk of a European army. At least Brown had the sense to keep the UK out of the Euro zone. Don't be surprised if Merkel makes a quick exit.
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Post by 4372 on Jan 26, 2021 20:59:08 GMT
Francophobe or Xenophobe? You decide...
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 26, 2021 21:00:49 GMT
Holy fuck! 😂 Right on cue with my above post. This EU chaos just gets better. Admittedly I wish all my brothers in the EU the very best and of course safety above all, but you have to admit, it's getting kind of amusing? You can just imagine the fury on a hardcore remoaners face right now. It's really quite sad, and certainly a worry as it's the poor who suffer most when there is an economic recession. The crying shame is "Why didn't we stick with EFTA?" But no the politicians are on a crazed power trip and latterly pawns of giant corporations. The Euro has destroyed the economies of Italy, Greece, and created massive youth unemployment in Spain, long before the pandemic. But the Brussels bureaucrats are driven towards a "United States of Europe", as exemplified by last week's tantrum over the status of their ambassadors, boasting "We have a parliamenf and Court of Justice". Our own politicians like Major, Blair, and Cameron are sucked into the whirlpool of legislation, customs union, and even talk of a European army. At least Brown had the sense to keep the UK out of the Euro zone. Don't be surprised if Merkel makes a quick exit. Absolutely. Power breeds more power. We got out at the right time.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 26, 2021 21:07:16 GMT
I think most people over 40, with a passing interest in politics, would acknowledge that Italy has changed it's governments about once a week for the last fifty years. Not entirely sure why it is good news that a vaccine trial has ended in failure. The footballification of politics, where cheering your side on is more important than even trying to understand the complexity of the issues. So its no surprise that the fella isn't familiar with Italian politics, just depressing how prevalent this sort of ignorance is. There are thoughtful Brexit supporters worth engaging and respectfully disagreeing with, then others who are best ignored. That's part of the tragedy of Brexit - guys consumed with anger and hatred over politics and history they don't understand. That rarely ends well. Ridiculous, hysterical overreaction. How is it up there on that high horse? 😉
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2021 21:11:31 GMT
The EU is crumbling in front of our very eyes. It's done. Finished. ☺️ If you genuinely thought that, you'd take my bet, safe in the knowledge that this time next year I'll be bunging the DLT £100 and you get the bragging rights forever more! The fact you won't says everything anyone needs to know about whether you even believe any of the nonsense you post yourself!
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jan 26, 2021 21:15:01 GMT
I'm massively interested in knowing how Conte's resignation can be related to Brexit, Italy leaving the EU or the disintegration of the EU. It isn't directly in fairness but it just adds to the hysterical chaos running through Europe. Be fascinating to see what happens out there. Angry public sentiment, huge anger and frustration at where things are going could lead to a strange new government? I wouldn't use Italy as a yardstick for the political stability of any country, never mind a whole continent. I don't know what the new government will look like, it could well have Conte as the prime minister of a different coalition. If it ended up in an election it's likely the right-leaning parties would do quite well but looking at the polling there doesn't seem be one party that will get an outstanding percentage of the vote. So it would likely be quite a broad coalition which (I would imagine) would stop it being too far leaning to the right.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2021 21:15:22 GMT
Holy fuck! 😂 Right on cue with my above post. This EU chaos just gets better. Admittedly I wish all my brothers in the EU the very best and of course safety above all, but you have to admit, it's getting kind of amusing? You can just imagine the fury on a hardcore remoaners face right now. It's really quite sad, and certainly a worry as it's the poor who suffer most when there is an economic recession. The crying shame is "Why didn't we stick with EFTA?" But no the politicians are on a crazed power trip and latterly pawns of giant corporations. The Euro has destroyed the economies of Italy, Greece, and created massive youth unemployment in Spain, long before the pandemic. But the Brussels bureaucrats are driven towards a "United States of Europe", as exemplified by last week's tantrum over the status of their ambassadors, boasting "We have a parliamenf and Court of Justice". Our own politicians like Major, Blair, and Cameron are sucked into the whirlpool of legislation, customs union, and even talk of a European army. At least Brown had the sense to keep the UK out of the Euro zone. Don't be surprised if Merkel makes a quick exit. Erm, she said she was stepping down after 16 years in charge numerous months ago and her party is currently engaged in choosing a successor. You must have missed it! Not sure this can be used as evidence of the EU falling apart, but I'll put money on Brexiteers trying!
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 26, 2021 21:20:57 GMT
The EU is crumbling in front of our very eyes. It's done. Finished. ☺️ If you genuinely thought that, you'd take my bet, safe in the knowledge that this time next year I'll be bunging the DLT £100 and you get the bragging rights forever more! The fact you won't says everything anyone needs to know about whether you even believe any of the nonsense you post yourself! Hold on a sec? What a ridiculous post. I've offered you a clear bet with pretty clear outlined points. You know as well as I do, it will take years for the EU to fully disintegrate into individual states. Its been decade after decade of bureaucracy... It's finished but it will take years for it to formally come to an end. Its like winning a big contract, divorce or buying a house. It's set in stone but it doesn't just happen overnight, but you know that. So let's put a proper deal on the table. - The EU will be in economical chaos in 12 months - The UK will be in a significantly better economical state than the EU in 12 months - The EU will have at least one core member state looking to leave the EU within the next 12 months. I'm happy to treble bets to £300 with all proceeds going to a mutually agreed charity. Deal? 🤗
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2021 21:25:22 GMT
No shifting the goalposts, bianco!
You reckon it's "genuinely finished", going up in flames etc. You seem very convinced on that.
Either you take my bet or you accept it'll still be there in one year's time and therefore not finished.
You then pay £100 to the DLT and we can see about having the same bet again if you like...!
Your parameters are so vague as to mean anything! You'll cite even the remotest article in a foreign newspaper or Geert Wilders saying Holland should leave the EU as "evidence"...!
Much easier just to agree the EU is either finished or not. It's either there or it isn't! Come on, man up, put your money where your mouth is! Or do you not really think it's finished after all!
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jan 26, 2021 21:29:55 GMT
I think most people over 40, with a passing interest in politics, would acknowledge that Italy has changed it's governments about once a week for the last fifty years. Not entirely sure why it is good news that a vaccine trial has ended in failure. Oh don't get all lovey dovey on us. If the EU was making us look silly don't pretend you wouldn't be making the most of it 😉 We've had 4 years of remoaners telling us how fucked we'd be after leaving Europe. We were told we'd all get super gonorrhea and medicine shortages would be the norm. We were told the pound would fall of a cliff, that the Lib Dems and Labour would overthrow the biggest democratic vote in British history, that we'd end up isolated from the rest of the world. It was all lies, we knew they were lies and its becoming more obvious by the day that the UK will be a hugely successful nation outside of the boys (and gals) in Brussels ☺️ Love Europe. Hate the EU. On this thread you're saying the UK will prosper outside the EU because we're not tearing ourselves apart over Covid . On the Covid thread you're talking of triggers for civil unrest in the UK this summer because of Covid. I'd love to know what you really think is a measure of success.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 26, 2021 21:32:26 GMT
Oh don't get all lovey dovey on us. If the EU was making us look silly don't pretend you wouldn't be making the most of it 😉 We've had 4 years of remoaners telling us how fucked we'd be after leaving Europe. We were told we'd all get super gonorrhea and medicine shortages would be the norm. We were told the pound would fall of a cliff, that the Lib Dems and Labour would overthrow the biggest democratic vote in British history, that we'd end up isolated from the rest of the world. It was all lies, we knew they were lies and its becoming more obvious by the day that the UK will be a hugely successful nation outside of the boys (and gals) in Brussels ☺️ Love Europe. Hate the EU. On this thread you're saying the UK will prosper outside the EU because we're not tearing ourselves apart over Covid . On the Covid thread you're talking of triggers for civil unrest in the UK this summer because of Covid. I'd love to know what you really think is a measure of success. Bianco reminds me of Comical Ali from the Gulf War. He was the unintentionally entertaining Minister of Information who famously insisted that there were no Americans in Iraq, just as an American tank rolled up the street behind him!
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 26, 2021 21:37:01 GMT
No wonder the EU are throwing toys out of the pram what a fuck up.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 26, 2021 21:43:22 GMT
Oh don't get all lovey dovey on us. If the EU was making us look silly don't pretend you wouldn't be making the most of it 😉 We've had 4 years of remoaners telling us how fucked we'd be after leaving Europe. We were told we'd all get super gonorrhea and medicine shortages would be the norm. We were told the pound would fall of a cliff, that the Lib Dems and Labour would overthrow the biggest democratic vote in British history, that we'd end up isolated from the rest of the world. It was all lies, we knew they were lies and its becoming more obvious by the day that the UK will be a hugely successful nation outside of the boys (and gals) in Brussels ☺️ Love Europe. Hate the EU. On this thread you're saying the UK will prosper outside the EU because we're not tearing ourselves apart over Covid . On the Covid thread you're talking of triggers for civil unrest in the UK this summer because of Covid. I'd love to know what you really think is a measure of success. Oh don't get me wrong. I think we're heading for a huge recession and probably quite a bit of unrest. History tells us large scale job losses lead to mass unrest. But the EU is heading for far worse. Just watch it happen. No need to go on the defensive. Just sit back and watch it happen 😊
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 26, 2021 21:49:42 GMT
No shifting the goalposts, bianco! You reckon it's "genuinely finished", going up in flames etc. You seem very convinced on that. Either you take my bet or you accept it'll still be there in one year's time and therefore not finished. You then pay £100 to the DLT and we can see about having the same bet again if you like...! Your parameters are so vague as to mean anything! You'll cite even the remotest article in a foreign newspaper or Geert Wilders saying Holland should leave the EU as "evidence"...! Much easier just to agree the EU is either finished or not. It's either there or it isn't! Come on, man up, put your money where your mouth is! Or do you not really think it's finished after all! 😂😂😂😂 Oh stop that nonsense immediately. You know exactly what I'm proposing. And you also know full well that even if the EU was formerly finished tomorrow it would take the best part of a decade for it to allow every state to run independently. It is finished! In the same way the UK agreed to leave in 2016! It doesn't happen overnight and you know it. What is remotely vague about my proposition? Why do I sense you're concerned about signing up to my perfectly clear, concise terms? You're more bureaucratic and process driven than the EU themselves! My terms for the deal are perfectly clear. Take it or leave it!
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 27, 2021 10:24:04 GMT
I don't think that you could claim that our fishing industry has fared very well since we have been in the EU. It has been a story of decline, whether that is due to the selling of quotas, it has occurred whilst in the EU...and we are an island. The Dutch and French seem to have done ok though, don't they. Anyone who takes an interest in EU politics will know that the CAP exists simply to support the French farmers....subdidised by our tax payers. Funnily enough this seems to have gone unnoticed as a major issue until Brexit....we now want to talk about fishing, fishing waters sustainability, fishing rights. The common industrial policy favours the Germans and secondly mainland Europe. Brexit is only the beginning , not particularly a solution to anything, its "success" will depend upon the degree to which our politicians take advantage and act in our interests. I don't want ANY of our industry/ services/ agriculture to suffer, quite the opposite....it is up to our politicians to support those who can and have suffered and to argue and assert our case( that is something our politicians have not been used to and unfortunately, in my opinion, it will not be until the next general election that they might begin to recognise their responsibility and power...the EU administers ARE USED to making decisions...we have a lot of catching up to do). We are only at the beginning. Personally I can see many battles ahead. And I'd would add Muggleton that we both like to think of ourselves as pragmatists and in the real world....we have left the EU, there is little point in looking back and saying it could have been better, it should not have happened.....the issue now is what we do next. Manage as best we can the fact that the country is going to be worse off in many ways is the only thing left to do....does that mean no-one should ever mention the B word again? I, for one, will be mentioning the B word again. You'll be pleased to hear more good news is on the way in the months ahead: m.economictimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/enhanced-trade-partnership-first-step-towards-uk-india-fta-says-uk-minister/articleshow/80464753.cmsThe new team set up by the government to negotiate new trade deals (which the EU tried to stop until the UK had left the EU) is working hard and will deliver a new deal with India in the coming months. India has an economy larger than France but, more importantly, has been growing rapidly. It offers huge potential for our services and high tech. companies, whereas France offers very little opportunity for UK business. In time India's economy will be larger than Germany's and Japan's, and is a country that we have large social and commercial ties with. I worked for Tata, the largest manufacturing and industrial and private company employer in the UK, and spent time in India and saw the massive potential for growth.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 27, 2021 10:59:02 GMT
Manage as best we can the fact that the country is going to be worse off in many ways is the only thing left to do....does that mean no-one should ever mention the B word again? I, for one, will be mentioning the B word again. You'll be pleased to hear more good news is on the way in the months ahead: m.economictimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/enhanced-trade-partnership-first-step-towards-uk-india-fta-says-uk-minister/articleshow/80464753.cmsThe new team set up by the government to negotiate new trade deals (which the EU tried to stop until the UK had left the EU) is working hard and will deliver a new deal with India in the coming months. India has an economy larger than France but, more importantly, has been growing rapidly. It offers huge potential for our services and high tech. companies, whereas France offers very little opportunity for UK business. In time India's economy will be larger than Germany's and Japan's, and is a country that we have large social and commercial ties with. I worked for Tata, the largest manufacturing and industrial and private company employer in the UK, and spent time in India and saw the massive potential for growth. What are your thoughts on Modi's government bringing in legislation to allow companies to hire and fire workers at will, extend working hours up to 72 hours a week, deny workers a guaranteed minimum wage and essentially stripping workers of any bargaining power or safety net? Is that a country we should be looking to increase our business ties with?
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Post by foster on Jan 27, 2021 11:02:47 GMT
Manage as best we can the fact that the country is going to be worse off in many ways is the only thing left to do....does that mean no-one should ever mention the B word again? I, for one, will be mentioning the B word again. You'll be pleased to hear more good news is on the way in the months ahead: m.economictimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/enhanced-trade-partnership-first-step-towards-uk-india-fta-says-uk-minister/articleshow/80464753.cmsThe new team set up by the government to negotiate new trade deals (which the EU tried to stop until the UK had left the EU) is working hard and will deliver a new deal with India in the coming months. India has an economy larger than France but, more importantly, has been growing rapidly. It offers huge potential for our services and high tech. companies, whereas France offers very little opportunity for UK business. In time India's economy will be larger than Germany's and Japan's, and is a country that we have large social and commercial ties with. I worked for Tata, the largest manufacturing and industrial and private company employer in the UK, and spent time in India and saw the massive potential for growth. I assume from your ever-present reference to economic growth that you're in favour of striking up deals with the worlds largest and fastest growing economies, such as China. Yet, there are some Brexiteers on here that point to the EU-China agreement as a disgrace based on human rights issues. Yet India is hardly a world leader when it comes to Human Rights ( www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/india# ). They most certainly have issues with working conditions, equality and widespread gang rape (including that of minors). What's your opinion on doing business with countries that have such poor human rights records? Since many of these are those with the fastest growing economies? By the sounds of it, it seems that human rights don't come into consideration for you. It's all about getting in with the big boys and forgetting about the rest.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 27, 2021 12:04:30 GMT
My last post has been criticised at my welcoming the UK working towards a trade deal with India. I was not a Brexiteer who attacked the EU proposing an investment agreement with China, all I said was it was driven by (German) corporate interests and rushed through while Germany still chaired the EU Council. We've yet to see whether the European parliament approve the deal, but they usually nod through everything the Commission and Council want. Moving to the subject of human rights. Are critics saying we should have no dealings with those countries that are poor in this respect? www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-newIf so, that would mean the UK not dealing with most of the world. I pointed out in my previous post that Tata are the largest manufacturing, industrial, and private employer in the UK. Many other Indian companies have invested in the UK. Should we reject all this investment as the finance has been generated on the backs of Indian workers in the main? China has invested in the UK to a massive extent. Do we stop dealing with most of Africa, middle east, China etc.? I pointed out recently on this MB that Israel is the most democratic and liberal country in the middle east (along with Lebanon) and was howled down by derision. People should look at the neighbouring countries that wish to exterminate Israel. One of the reasons I grudgingly continued to support EEC membership in the 1980s was the argument that by being in it, you have the opportunity to change it for the better. I was wrong, it changed for the worse and became the EU at Maastricht. It was and will not change until it is forced to, as it is ruled by an obsessive Commission striding towards a United States of Europe where all individual countries liberties will be strictly curtailed. (I doubt whether it will get there personally, before the people rebel.) By trading with countries with poor human rights we can influence and change them for the better, by helping them to become wealthier. So yes I am in favour of trading with these countries. Showing me pictures of Indian police attackers protesters, just reminds me of Paris and latterly the Netherlands! Italy is similar. History reaches us that the path to freedom, liberty, democracy, human rights, etc. is paved with wealth. Creating wealth leads to a freer society, citizens expect and demand it. It is only just over a hundred years since women got the vote in the UK and Ireland got its freedom, long after the industrial revolution and the creation of Great Britain becoming the richest most powerful country in the world. The United States had a head start on human rights being born out of peoples fleeing their countries and a people fighting for their freedom from British taxes, who then became the richest and most powerful nation. I will not be around, so I'm not taking any bets, but I predict China will become the richest and most powerful nation and then their people will get far more freedom and rights. India will follow suit. While I worked for the Indians, I met many honourable people who recognise workers rights. The workers I met were delighted to be working for Tata. The problem the Indian authorities have is so many people see the west on TV, films, and internet and hear from relatives in UK and elsewhere and they want the same now.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2021 12:08:29 GMT
My last post has been criticised at my welcoming the UK working towards a trade deal with India. I was not a Brexiteer who attacked the EU proposing an investment agreement with China, all I said was it was driven by (German) corporate interests and rushed through while Germany still chaired the EU Council. We've yet to see whether the European parliament approve the deal, but they usually nod through everything the Commission and Council want. Moving to the subject of human rights. Are critics saying we should have no dealings with those countries that are poor in this respect? www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-newIf so, that would mean the UK not dealing with most of the world. I pointed out in my previous post that Tata are the largest manufacturing, industrial, and private employer in the UK. Many other Indian companies have invested in the UK. Should we reject all this investment as the finance has been generated on the backs of Indian workers in the main? China has invested in the UK to a massive extent. Do we stop dealing with most of Africa, middle east, China etc.? I pointed out recently on this MB that Israel is the most democratic and liberal country in the middle east (along with Lebanon) and was howled down by derision. People should look at the neighbouring countries that wish to exterminate Israel. One of the reasons I grudgingly continued to support EEC membership in the 1980s was the argument that by being in it, you have the opportunity to change it for the better. I was wrong, it changed for the worse and became the EU at Maastricht. It was and will not change until it is forced to, as it is ruled by an obsessive Commission striding towards a United States of Europe where all individual countries liberties will be strictly curtailed. (I doubt whether it will get there personally, before the people rebel.) By trading with countries with poor human rights we can influence and change them for the better, by helping them to become wealthier. So yes I am in favour of trading with these countries. Showing me pictures of Indian police attackers protesters, just reminds me of Paris and latterly the Netherlands! Italy is similar. History reaches us that the path to freedom, liberty, democracy, human rights, etc. is paved with wealth. Creating wealth leads to a freer society, citizens expect and demand it. It is only just over a hundred years since women got the vote in the UK and Ireland got its freedom, long after the industrial revolution and the creation of Great Britain becoming the richest most powerful country in the world. The United States had a head start on human rights being born out of peoples fleeing their countries and a people fighting for their freedom from British taxes, who then became the richest and most powerful nation. I will not be around, so I'm not taking any bets, but I predict China will become the richest and most powerful nation and then their people will get far more freedom and rights. India will follow suit. While I worked for the Indians, I met many honourable people who recognise workers rights. The workers I met were delighted to be working for Tata. The problem the Indian authorities have is so many people see the west on TV, films, and internet and hear from relatives in UK and elsewhere and they want the same now.Helping countries become wealthier improves their human rights record does it? Tell that to Jamal Khashoggi.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 27, 2021 12:17:07 GMT
No shifting the goalposts, bianco! You reckon it's "genuinely finished", going up in flames etc. You seem very convinced on that. Either you take my bet or you accept it'll still be there in one year's time and therefore not finished. You then pay £100 to the DLT and we can see about having the same bet again if you like...! Your parameters are so vague as to mean anything! You'll cite even the remotest article in a foreign newspaper or Geert Wilders saying Holland should leave the EU as "evidence"...! Much easier just to agree the EU is either finished or not. It's either there or it isn't! Come on, man up, put your money where your mouth is! Or do you not really think it's finished after all! 😂😂😂😂 Oh stop that nonsense immediately. You know exactly what I'm proposing. And you also know full well that even if the EU was formerly finished tomorrow it would take the best part of a decade for it to allow every state to run independently. It is finished! In the same way the UK agreed to leave in 2016! It doesn't happen overnight and you know it. What is remotely vague about my proposition? Why do I sense you're concerned about signing up to my perfectly clear, concise terms? You're more bureaucratic and process driven than the EU themselves! My terms for the deal are perfectly clear. Take it or leave it! Tell you what, I'll stop offering you bets based on your over-reactive wishful thinking, which you clearly don't really believe yourself as you won't take the simplest of terms and need to shift the goalposts again and again, if you stop with the histrionics and hyperbole, how does that deal sound? To be honest, I don't blame you one little bit for not taking it, people have been confidently asserting the downfall of the EU since June 24 2016 and throughout all the sovereign debt crises, and amazingly, it's still there and continues to expand! You just happen to be the latest!
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 27, 2021 12:34:03 GMT
My last post has been criticised at my welcoming the UK working towards a trade deal with India. I was not a Brexiteer who attacked the EU proposing an investment agreement with China, all I said was it was driven by (German) corporate interests and rushed through while Germany still chaired the EU Council. We've yet to see whether the European parliament approve the deal, but they usually nod through everything the Commission and Council want. Moving to the subject of human rights. Are critics saying we should have no dealings with those countries that are poor in this respect? www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-newIf so, that would mean the UK not dealing with most of the world. I pointed out in my previous post that Tata are the largest manufacturing, industrial, and private employer in the UK. Many other Indian companies have invested in the UK. Should we reject all this investment as the finance has been generated on the backs of Indian workers in the main? China has invested in the UK to a massive extent. Do we stop dealing with most of Africa, middle east, China etc.? I pointed out recently on this MB that Israel is the most democratic and liberal country in the middle east (along with Lebanon) and was howled down by derision. People should look at the neighbouring countries that wish to exterminate Israel. One of the reasons I grudgingly continued to support EEC membership in the 1980s was the argument that by being in it, you have the opportunity to change it for the better. I was wrong, it changed for the worse and became the EU at Maastricht. It was and will not change until it is forced to, as it is ruled by an obsessive Commission striding towards a United States of Europe where all individual countries liberties will be strictly curtailed. (I doubt whether it will get there personally, before the people rebel.) By trading with countries with poor human rights we can influence and change them for the better, by helping them to become wealthier. So yes I am in favour of trading with these countries. Showing me pictures of Indian police attackers protesters, just reminds me of Paris and latterly the Netherlands! Italy is similar. History reaches us that the path to freedom, liberty, democracy, human rights, etc. is paved with wealth. Creating wealth leads to a freer society, citizens expect and demand it. It is only just over a hundred years since women got the vote in the UK and Ireland got its freedom, long after the industrial revolution and the creation of Great Britain becoming the richest most powerful country in the world. The United States had a head start on human rights being born out of peoples fleeing their countries and a people fighting for their freedom from British taxes, who then became the richest and most powerful nation. I will not be around, so I'm not taking any bets, but I predict China will become the richest and most powerful nation and then their people will get far more freedom and rights. India will follow suit. While I worked for the Indians, I met many honourable people who recognise workers rights. The workers I met were delighted to be working for Tata. The problem the Indian authorities have is so many people see the west on TV, films, and internet and hear from relatives in UK and elsewhere and they want the same now.Helping countries become wealthier improves their human rights record does it? Tell that to Jamal Khashoggi. So what do you propose the UK does? Do we break off relations with Saudi? Do we then have sanctions against those countries that do deal with Saudi? Such as USA. It's just 100 years since the British massacred Indians and today India is one of the biggest investors in the UK. Times change and Saudi will change as the rest of the world becomes more democratic and liberal.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 27, 2021 12:38:32 GMT
Helping countries become wealthier improves their human rights record does it? Tell that to Jamal Khashoggi. So what do you propose the UK does? Do we break off relations with Saudi? Do we then have sanctions against those countries that do deal with Saudi? Such as USA. It's just 100 years since the British massacred Indians and today India is one of the biggest investors in the UK. Times change and Saudi will change as the rest of the world becomes more democratic and liberal. If you're referring to the Amritsar massacre, there is an excellent book called The Patient Assassin which covers the lengthy aftermath of this, which I thoroughly recommend.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2021 12:39:34 GMT
Helping countries become wealthier improves their human rights record does it? Tell that to Jamal Khashoggi. So what do you propose the UK does? Do we break off relations with Saudi? Do we then have sanctions against those countries that do deal with Saudi? Such as USA. It's just 100 years since the British massacred Indians and today India is one of the biggest investors in the UK. Times change and Saudi will change as the rest of the world becomes more democratic and liberal. What are you basing that on?
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Post by foster on Jan 27, 2021 12:39:48 GMT
My last post has been criticised at my welcoming the UK working towards a trade deal with India. I was not a Brexiteer who attacked the EU proposing an investment agreement with China, all I said was it was driven by (German) corporate interests and rushed through while Germany still chaired the EU Council. We've yet to see whether the European parliament approve the deal, but they usually nod through everything the Commission and Council want. No one said you were. But there are other Brexiteers on here that have criticised or used the deal as a stick to beat the EU with..namely Craps, FYD and scfcbiancorrossi.
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Post by foster on Jan 27, 2021 12:46:45 GMT
😂😂😂😂 Oh stop that nonsense immediately. You know exactly what I'm proposing. And you also know full well that even if the EU was formerly finished tomorrow it would take the best part of a decade for it to allow every state to run independently. It is finished! In the same way the UK agreed to leave in 2016! It doesn't happen overnight and you know it. What is remotely vague about my proposition? Why do I sense you're concerned about signing up to my perfectly clear, concise terms? You're more bureaucratic and process driven than the EU themselves! My terms for the deal are perfectly clear. Take it or leave it! Tell you what, I'll stop offering you bets based on your over-reactive wishful thinking, which you clearly don't really believe yourself as you won't take the simplest of terms and need to shift the goalposts again and again, if you stop with the histrionics and hyperbole, how does that deal sound? To be honest, I don't blame you one little bit for not taking it, people have been confidently asserting the downfall of the EU since June 24 2016 and throughout all the sovereign debt crises, and amazingly, it's still there and continues to expand! You just happen to be the latest! GDP growth projection for 2021 Attachment Deleted
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 27, 2021 16:08:14 GMT
From the DT today:
Twice as many peers live in London compared with the population share, analysis has shown in the wake of Gordon Brown’s call for a senate of the regions. According to data analysed by the Electoral Reform Society (ERS), 56 per cent of peers come from London, the South East and East of England, with more than 100 living in London. It comes as the former Prime Minister wrote in The Telegraph that months of coronavirus and “bitter disputes” between regions and Number 10 had provided a greater cause for him to review the way the whole United Kingdom is governed. Mr Brown said Boris Johnson should convene “citizens' assemblies in each region and nation so that he can listen to what the public are saying”. He urged Mr Johnson to look to other countries where “second chambers are senates of their regions, and minorities who can easily be outvoted are guaranteed a stronger voice”. Based on the data available of 486 peers, the ERS found 24 per cent of peers lived in London, compared to six per cent in the whole of the Midlands. Meanwhile, three per cent of peers were found to reside in the North East and 4.5 per cent in the North West. The ERS said that the Lords was “completely skewed in its regional representation when compared to the share of the UK population in each area”. They added that London, the South East and the East of England “are massively overrepresented in the Lords, with the proportion of peers from these three regions being 20 percentage points higher than their share of the UK population”. It said that, excluding the South West and Scotland, “every other region and nation is underrepresented in the chamber, with the North West and Midlands losing out the most in representation”. It added that the “combined share” of peers from these three regions in the Lords was 16 per cent lower than their share of the UK population. Moreover, an analysis of Lords’ professions found that not a single peer’s primary working background was in a manual or skilled trade, and that only 15 peers had a background in medicine or healthcare. It also found that 72 per cent of Lords were male, and 54 per cent were over the age of 70. Willie Sullivan, senior director at the ERS, said the House of Lords sat at “the heart of Westminster’s constitutional crisis,” as he said voters deserved “better than a publicly-funded private member’s club packed to the hilt with party donors and allies”. He said: “The Lords is totally failing to reflect the diversity of knowledge and experience in this country, and the time is now for root-and-branch change.” Mr Sullivan said the figures emphasised “the pressing need for reform”. “Westminster looks desperately outdated and warped, and the unelected second chamber plays a big role in this,” he added. “The Prime Minister must heed these calls for change. A majority of voters across parties want to see a proportionally-elected second chamber which could truly help level up the whole UK. There is an opportunity to drag politics into the 21st century, and start to tackle the dire political inequality.” He also said that to do so “might shape a union that people really want to be a part of”.
I suspect that our own political 'constitution' is massively more responsible for the "left behind" than anything the EU has done over the last few decades, but I don't suppose we'll be seeing anything change or getting a vote on whether the HoL should be scrapped any time soon...
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 27, 2021 18:19:41 GMT
On this thread you're saying the UK will prosper outside the EU because we're not tearing ourselves apart over Covid . On the Covid thread you're talking of triggers for civil unrest in the UK this summer because of Covid. I'd love to know what you really think is a measure of success. Oh don't get me wrong. I think we're heading for a huge recession and probably quite a bit of unrest. History tells us large scale job losses lead to mass unrest. But the EU is heading for far worse. Just watch it happen. No need to go on the defensive. Just sit back and watch it happen 😊 Yes, brexiteers have been saying that for about 5 years and it hasn’t yet materialised. You may be right, you may be wrong. Either way, we are definitely going to have a tough few years. Some of it covid related, but lots of it self inflicted by brexit
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 27, 2021 18:22:01 GMT
Helping countries become wealthier improves their human rights record does it? Tell that to Jamal Khashoggi. So what do you propose the UK does? Do we break off relations with Saudi? Do we then have sanctions against those countries that do deal with Saudi? Such as USA. It's just 100 years since the British massacred Indians and today India is one of the biggest investors in the UK. Times change and Saudi will change as the rest of the world becomes more democratic and liberal. The rest of the world (including US and Britain) is becoming less democratic and less liberal though
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