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Post by partickpotter on Jan 10, 2021 10:48:51 GMT
The 90 day rule is causing massive disruption and affecting thousands of UK citizens who own second properties and boats etc in Europe. These people at present can only use their properties for a total of 90 days and then must no re enter Europe for a further 90 days. We have agreed to allow European citizens to visit the UK for 180 days which is far more sensible and practical. Why the same facility is not available for us to visit Europe is beyond my comprehension. It is what it is. I’d have thought those people who are in the fortunate position to own multiple properties will have the gumption to cope with the situation.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 10, 2021 10:52:03 GMT
The 90 day rule is causing massive disruption and affecting thousands of UK citizens who own second properties and boats etc in Europe. These people at present can only use their properties for a total of 90 days and then must no re enter Europe for a further 90 days. We have agreed to allow European citizens to visit the UK for 180 days which is far more sensible and practical. Why the same facility is not available for us to visit Europe is beyond my comprehension. It is what it is. I’d have thought those people who are in the fortunate position to own multiple properties will have the gumption to cope with the situation. Yeah, it is what it is, they'll just have to let them go...
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 10, 2021 10:56:06 GMT
It is what it is. I’d have thought those people who are in the fortunate position to own multiple properties will have the gumption to cope with the situation. Yeah, it is what it is, they'll just have to let them go... Agreed. I’ve not heard much in the way of complaint from that group of people so I imagine they are just getting on with things. Letting it go, as you quite rightly say.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 10, 2021 11:03:52 GMT
It is indeed an assumption - and one that should be clarified. But... Even if it is correct, I’d be interested to know how many folk are actually affected. Because they can still travel in line with the (now) standard 90 day twice a year visa which you’d have thought would be enough for most purposes. But maybe not. Maybe Lily Allen, who seems distraught by this news, is planning on spending more than half of 2021 in countries that are members of the EU. It's also about bands coming to the UK. If there's extra paperwork and cost, not to mention the fact that they have to show sufficient savings, they just won't bother. Most of these bands both UK ones and European ones, contrary to popular belief aren't earning millions of pounds every year but do bring in millions to the UK economy, massively more than the UK fishing industry I might add. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-musicians-tours-concerts-b1779238.htmlMore venues will have to search for up and coming British bands then
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jan 10, 2021 11:09:22 GMT
It's also about bands coming to the UK. If there's extra paperwork and cost, not to mention the fact that they have to show sufficient savings, they just won't bother. Most of these bands both UK ones and European ones, contrary to popular belief aren't earning millions of pounds every year but do bring in millions to the UK economy, massively more than the UK fishing industry I might add. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-musicians-tours-concerts-b1779238.htmlMore venues will have to search for up and coming British bands then Again, less choice. That's what the Brexit dividends are so far. Less choice. Brilliant.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 10, 2021 11:17:47 GMT
More venues will have to search for up and coming British bands then Again, less choice. That's what the Brexit dividends are so far. Less choice. Brilliant. You’re less choice is my more opportunity There’s always more than one way of looking at things And most can be right
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 10, 2021 11:24:29 GMT
It's also about bands coming to the UK. If there's extra paperwork and cost, not to mention the fact that they have to show sufficient savings, they just won't bother. Most of these bands both UK ones and European ones, contrary to popular belief aren't earning millions of pounds every year but do bring in millions to the UK economy, massively more than the UK fishing industry I might add. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-musicians-tours-concerts-b1779238.htmlIt’s really hard to make sense of these articles. They are written, it seems to me, with an incredibly jaundiced view of the world. EU bands can tour the UK for 6 months without problem. Only if you intend to spend longer than 6 months do you need to apply for a visa. In other words they can use the new entry rules as can any other visitor for whatever purpose. I’d have thought that would have been in scope for almost every band thinking of touring Britain. So what’s the problem? I’m struggling to see one. I can't see a problem back in the day a uk tour could be 60+ dates nowadays very few bands do more than 5 or 6 cities. The cost / bureaucracy is going to be borne by booking agents / record labels, professional bands just like those from outside the EU will carry on as normal,
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 10, 2021 11:26:41 GMT
More venues will have to search for up and coming British bands then Again, less choice. That's what the Brexit dividends are so far. Less choice. Brilliant. Of course I have never seen a band from outside of the EU in the UK in the last 40 years so difficult and complex are the regulations.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jan 10, 2021 11:38:58 GMT
Again, less choice. That's what the Brexit dividends are so far. Less choice. Brilliant. Of course I have never seen a band from outside of the EU in the UK in the last 40 years so difficult and complex are the regulations. Bands will either not bother coming due to the extra cost and hassle or pass the cost on to the punter. 95 quid for a visa for per band member and per road crew will be the difference between coming here or not for a lot of smaller bands and artists.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 10, 2021 11:45:55 GMT
Of course I have never seen a band from outside of the EU in the UK in the last 40 years so difficult and complex are the regulations. Bands will either not bother coming due to the extra cost and hassle or pass the cost on to the punter. 95 quid for a visa for per band member and per road crew will be the difference between coming here or not for a lot of smaller bands and artists. Help me out. That £95 charge applies only if they want to be resident in the UK for more than 6 months. Correct?
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 10, 2021 12:03:24 GMT
Of course I have never seen a band from outside of the EU in the UK in the last 40 years so difficult and complex are the regulations. Bands will either not bother coming due to the extra cost and hassle or pass the cost on to the punter. 95 quid for a visa for per band member and per road crew will be the difference between coming here or not for a lot of smaller bands and artists. Thats not how the industry works a promoter books the venues and takes the profit / loss on ticket sales, the band gets a fee for playing each night, they from their fees or their record company cover the transport, accomodation costs etc. Road crew just like pa equipment, sound engineers etc can be sourced locally taking your worst case example of a 12 man band and crew it won't be the cost of £95 that puts them off it will be the crowds they are going to play in front of they wont come to play to 20 or 30 people but they will if its 400 or 500. I used to live in central london and I could see an american band probably 4 or 5 nights a week alot playing at 600-800 capacity venues to socially distanced crowds before they were required and they never stopped coming and I doubt many made money.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jan 10, 2021 12:23:53 GMT
Bands will either not bother coming due to the extra cost and hassle or pass the cost on to the punter. 95 quid for a visa for per band member and per road crew will be the difference between coming here or not for a lot of smaller bands and artists. Help me out. That £95 charge applies only if they want to be resident in the UK for more than 6 months. Correct? As far as I read it, it's 95 quid per visit to the UK per person for up to 6 months. So if a band does a 5 date UK tour, then goes back to whichever EU country its from, then the visas would have to be applied for and paid for again if they come back into the UK Then going back to UK bands travelling into the EU, now they'll have to pay import duty on merchandising. This is where most bands make their money. My bigger point is that everything I've seen so far from Brexit is more red tape, more cost and less choice. From the touring scene, to my brothers business now stopping exports to one of my friends business spending over £200,000 just to trade in Ireland on the same terms as before.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 10, 2021 12:29:20 GMT
Help me out. That £95 charge applies only if they want to be resident in the UK for more than 6 months. Correct? As far as I read it, it's 95 quid per visit to the UK per person for up to 6 months. So if a band does a 5 date UK tour, then goes back to whichever EU country its from, then the visas would have to be applied for and paid for again if they come back into the UK Then going back to UK bands travelling into the EU, now they'll have to pay import duty on merchandising. This is where most bands make their money. My bigger point is that everything I've seen so far from Brexit is more red tape, more cost and less choice. From the touring scene, to my brothers business now stopping exports to one of my friends business spending over £200,000 just to trade in Ireland on the same terms as before. Got you. And thanks for the example.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 10, 2021 12:48:10 GMT
The 90 day rule is causing massive disruption and affecting thousands of UK citizens who own second properties and boats etc in Europe. These people at present can only use their properties for a total of 90 days and then must no re enter Europe for a further 90 days. We have agreed to allow European citizens to visit the UK for 180 days which is far more sensible and practical. Why the same facility is not available for us to visit Europe is beyond my comprehension. It's what the EU, Merkel, Macron, et al call "a level playing field".
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 10, 2021 13:49:01 GMT
But we were always sovereign you say.....
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jan 10, 2021 13:49:52 GMT
Bands will either not bother coming due to the extra cost and hassle or pass the cost on to the punter. 95 quid for a visa for per band member and per road crew will be the difference between coming here or not for a lot of smaller bands and artists. Thats not how the industry works a promoter books the venues and takes the profit / loss on ticket sales, the band gets a fee for playing each night, they from their fees or their record company cover the transport, accomodation costs etc. Road crew just like pa equipment, sound engineers etc can be sourced locally taking your worst case example of a 12 man band and crew it won't be the cost of £95 that puts them off it will be the crowds they are going to play in front of they wont come to play to 20 or 30 people but they will if its 400 or 500. I used to live in central london and I could see an american band probably 4 or 5 nights a week alot playing at 600-800 capacity venues to socially distanced crowds before they were required and they never stopped coming and I doubt many made money. My understanding is that normally the promoter gives a gaurantee to the act, perhaps equivalent to 250 tickets on a 6-800 capacity venue. If ticket sales exceed that then the artist gets a percentage of the extra.Many artists would lose money on guaranteed fees alone, hoping that merchandising sales make it worthwhile.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 10, 2021 14:26:23 GMT
But we were always sovereign you say..... Has the penny finally dropped for you!? I have been saying this forever on this thread - agreeing anything with another nation reduces your sovereignty as there is always give and take in the agreement. No nation is sovereign in this international world! As with any international agreement (or treaty or EU membership), each nation can choose not to enter the agreement/treaty etc, or serve notice to leave the EU. In doing so they may recover a bit of sovereignty, but lose the benefits of whatever agreement/treaty etc they had. Nobody is tied in against their will.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 10, 2021 15:16:03 GMT
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Post by tuum on Jan 10, 2021 15:31:23 GMT
If Labour can stick to that policy then they could win back a few of their red wall seats. I could vote Labour in 2024 if they committed to continue as Keir Starmer says. We need to move further to the left to try and spread the wealth across society. At the moment, it is every man for himself and the poorer sections will always be worse off under those conditions. I dont trust the current Govt to look after the interests of the less privileged in UK society.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 10, 2021 15:55:19 GMT
If Labour can stick to that policy then they could win back a few of their red wall seats. I could vote Labour in 2024 if they committed to continue as Keir Starmer says. We need to move further to the left to try and spread the wealth across society. At the moment, it is every man for himself and the poorer sections will always be worse off under those conditions. I dont trust the current Govt to look after the interests of the less privileged in UK society. Communism believes in government control of the economy and the redistribution of wealth. Capitalism is the creation of wealth allowing the crumbs from the table of the rich to fall to the poor. www.goodreads.com/quotes/8691396-to-say-that-the-worker-has-an-interest-in-the#:~:text=Quotes%20%3E%20Quotable%20Quote-,%E2%80%9CTo%20say%20that%20%22the%20worker%20has%20an%20interest%20in%20the,more%20can%20the%20mass%20of Socialism lies in-between but there is a gulf between Blairites and Corbynites. Leaving the EU could be a step away from the capitalist controlled EU, depending on what government we as a nation choose to elect. There is now a choice for the British people to make. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and join the EU that is their choice.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 10, 2021 16:12:48 GMT
If Labour can stick to that policy then they could win back a few of their red wall seats. I could vote Labour in 2024 if they committed to continue as Keir Starmer says. We need to move further to the left to try and spread the wealth across society. At the moment, it is every man for himself and the poorer sections will always be worse off under those conditions. I dont trust the current Govt to look after the interests of the less privileged in UK society. Communism believes in government control of the economy and the redistribution of wealth. Capitalism is the creation of wealth allowing the crumbs from the table of the rich to fall to the poor. www.goodreads.com/quotes/8691396-to-say-that-the-worker-has-an-interest-in-the#:~:text=Quotes%20%3E%20Quotable%20Quote-,%E2%80%9CTo%20say%20that%20%22the%20worker%20has%20an%20interest%20in%20the,more%20can%20the%20mass%20of Socialism lies in-between but there is a gulf between Blairites and Corbynites. Leaving the EU could be a step away from the capitalist controlled EU, depending on what government we as a nation choose to elect. There is now a choice for the British people to make. If Scotland wants to leave the UK and join the EU that is their choice. It's one of the reasons why despite voting to remain I was comfortable with accepting the decision. Our democratic/political system is in need of a massive shake up, so if you asked me if I'd prefer a democratic socialist government out of the EU or another few decades of neoliberalism within it I'd take the former every time. Under Starmer the status quo will all but remain even under a Labour government so I guess I'll get neither which I feel is a massive lost opportunity, but the people have spoken..........
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 11, 2021 10:32:52 GMT
Thats not how the industry works a promoter books the venues and takes the profit / loss on ticket sales, the band gets a fee for playing each night, they from their fees or their record company cover the transport, accomodation costs etc. Road crew just like pa equipment, sound engineers etc can be sourced locally taking your worst case example of a 12 man band and crew it won't be the cost of £95 that puts them off it will be the crowds they are going to play in front of they wont come to play to 20 or 30 people but they will if its 400 or 500. I used to live in central london and I could see an american band probably 4 or 5 nights a week alot playing at 600-800 capacity venues to socially distanced crowds before they were required and they never stopped coming and I doubt many made money. My understanding is that normally the promoter gives a gaurantee to the act, perhaps equivalent to 250 tickets on a 6-800 capacity venue. If ticket sales exceed that then the artist gets a percentage of the extra.Many artists would lose money on guaranteed fees alone, hoping that merchandising sales make it worthwhile. You might be right on smaller venues for the 3,000+ venues, they charge the promoter a rental fee for hire and provide security and bar staff but they keep all the takings, band keeps merchandising money although I believe they usually pay a fee, band gets a set fee and promoter takes rest after paying for advertising etc. I guess the difference might be at 800 capacity venues bands aren't certain to sell out or they'd be playing the bigger venues.
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 11, 2021 10:38:11 GMT
But we were always sovereign you say..... Has the penny finally dropped for you!? I have been saying this forever on this thread - agreeing anything with another nation reduces your sovereignty as there is always give and take in the agreement. No nation is sovereign in this international world! As with any international agreement (or treaty or EU membership), each nation can choose not to enter the agreement/treaty etc, or serve notice to leave the EU. In doing so they may recover a bit of sovereignty, but lose the benefits of whatever agreement/treaty etc they had. Nobody is tied in against their will. Well thats a take I guess, most people would view it and say you are not legally allowed to buy vaccines to save the lives of your people might be a tad too much sovereignty given up but hey we all know how much you love the EU - shouldn't you be losing your shit about germany breaking an international agreement in the same way as you all were over the IM bill ?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 11, 2021 11:02:49 GMT
My understanding is that normally the promoter gives a gaurantee to the act, perhaps equivalent to 250 tickets on a 6-800 capacity venue. If ticket sales exceed that then the artist gets a percentage of the extra.Many artists would lose money on guaranteed fees alone, hoping that merchandising sales make it worthwhile. You might be right on smaller venues for the 3,000+ venues, they charge the promoter a rental fee for hire and provide security and bar staff but they keep all the takings, band keeps merchandising money although I believe they usually pay a fee, band gets a set fee and promoter takes rest after paying for advertising etc. I guess the difference might be at 800 capacity venues bands aren't certain to sell out or they'd be playing the bigger venues. And don't forget FYD ...the important thing is being in a position to be able to agree or disagree....that's sovereignty.....whilst in the EU, the UK did not have that choice....that is not weakening a country's sovereignty, it is surrendering it, as the EU well knows...and that is basically why we voted to leave.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jan 11, 2021 11:16:21 GMT
Thats not how the industry works a promoter books the venues and takes the profit / loss on ticket sales, the band gets a fee for playing each night, they from their fees or their record company cover the transport, accomodation costs etc. Road crew just like pa equipment, sound engineers etc can be sourced locally taking your worst case example of a 12 man band and crew it won't be the cost of £95 that puts them off it will be the crowds they are going to play in front of they wont come to play to 20 or 30 people but they will if its 400 or 500. I used to live in central london and I could see an american band probably 4 or 5 nights a week alot playing at 600-800 capacity venues to socially distanced crowds before they were required and they never stopped coming and I doubt many made money. My understanding is that normally the promoter gives a gaurantee to the act, perhaps equivalent to 250 tickets on a 6-800 capacity venue. If ticket sales exceed that then the artist gets a percentage of the extra.Many artists would lose money on guaranteed fees alone, hoping that merchandising sales make it worthwhile. Fog , this is only the 6th working day since the end of the transition period/ since we left properly. We were in the EU for over 45 years. Many arrangements on many areas will need sorting out over time. I'd hope that the advocates/ main players/ powerful players in the live music industry both in Europe and in the UK will work together advocate to get changes that are better for both parties. I would have thought that they have a bit of time as live music events can't really go ahead on a large scale at the moment because of Covid, can they? www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-55483105
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 11, 2021 13:36:15 GMT
My understanding is that normally the promoter gives a gaurantee to the act, perhaps equivalent to 250 tickets on a 6-800 capacity venue. If ticket sales exceed that then the artist gets a percentage of the extra.Many artists would lose money on guaranteed fees alone, hoping that merchandising sales make it worthwhile. Fog , this is only the 6th working day since the end of the transition period/ since we left properly. We were in the EU for over 45 years. Many arrangements on many areas will need sorting out over time. I'd hope that the advocates/ main players/ powerful players in the live music industry both in Europe and in the UK will work together advocate to get changes that are better for both parties. I would have thought that they have a bit of time as live music events can't really go ahead on a large scale at the moment because of Covid, can they? www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-55483105Exactly right. Over the coming months and years there will be lots of mutually beneficial agreements between the UK & EU. Some were proposed during the last 4 years UK/EU discussions/negotiations but not agreed because the EU insisted on control of arbitration through the ECJ. I read somewhere that there were extensive proposals for mutually agreed rule/regulations/standards on financial services which would have been beneficial to both sides, but the agreement included a requirement that if the EU changed their regulations, the UK would have to comply with any change they made, Frost rejected the proposals and nothing is agreed on services. Eventually the penny dropped with the EU, that the UK was serious and insistant on sovereignty and the trade deal does not include stiff compliances and ECJ jurisdiction.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 11, 2021 13:44:21 GMT
Still doesn't make for great reading though..(from your link) "Brexit threat Nissan has stuck with stark warnings about the fate of its Sunderland plant as the deadline for a trade deal between the UK and EU deal approaches. Chief Operating Officer Ashwani Gupta has said that Brexit-induced tariffs could render the company's UK business and Sunderland plant unsustainable. The plant has at times manufactured more than 500,000 vehicles a year, though output dropped below 350,000 units last year and will be much lower in 2020. About 80 percent of the Qashqai and Juke crossovers and full-electric Leaf hatchbacks manufactured there are exported, mostly to the EU. Nissan has earmarked 400 million pounds ($543 million) for production of the new Qashqai in Sunderland and has invested most of that already, it said last month. Unless negotiators are able to reach an agreement on new terms of trade before the Brexit transition period ends on Dec. 31, vehicles and components will be subject to tariffs that Nissan, BMW and PSA Group have said would be catastrophic for their factories. As Nissan swiftly launches new vehicles -- 12 fresh models are scheduled in the 18 months through November 2021 -- a no-deal Brexit could mean that a greater number of Europe-bound cars are produced outside the UK...." But this does make great reading: www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/nissan-%E2%80%9Csatisfied%E2%80%9D-brexit-deal-outcome-says-uk-boss
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Post by foster on Jan 11, 2021 14:51:38 GMT
Still doesn't make for great reading though..(from your link) "Brexit threat Nissan has stuck with stark warnings about the fate of its Sunderland plant as the deadline for a trade deal between the UK and EU deal approaches. Chief Operating Officer Ashwani Gupta has said that Brexit-induced tariffs could render the company's UK business and Sunderland plant unsustainable. The plant has at times manufactured more than 500,000 vehicles a year, though output dropped below 350,000 units last year and will be much lower in 2020. About 80 percent of the Qashqai and Juke crossovers and full-electric Leaf hatchbacks manufactured there are exported, mostly to the EU. Nissan has earmarked 400 million pounds ($543 million) for production of the new Qashqai in Sunderland and has invested most of that already, it said last month. Unless negotiators are able to reach an agreement on new terms of trade before the Brexit transition period ends on Dec. 31, vehicles and components will be subject to tariffs that Nissan, BMW and PSA Group have said would be catastrophic for their factories. As Nissan swiftly launches new vehicles -- 12 fresh models are scheduled in the 18 months through November 2021 -- a no-deal Brexit could mean that a greater number of Europe-bound cars are produced outside the UK...." But this does make great reading: www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/nissan-%E2%80%9Csatisfied%E2%80%9D-brexit-deal-outcome-says-uk-bossAs has been said on here by Brexiteers (BJR et al) and Remainers (me for example) alike. There really is no point pointing to these small 'apparent' victories, which amount to nothing more than drops in the ocean. It will take time to really gauge whether or not Brexit turns out to be a good thing or not. In the grand scheme of things, all these tit for tat urls people are posting from all sides really mean fuck all at the moment. The success or failure of Brexit isn't going to be determined by a factory opening / closing or a few more or less fish being caught. For me personally, Brexit will measured against the state of public services, education, reducing poverty and improving sustainability. When figures and results come out relating to those areas then I'll draw my own conclusions.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 11, 2021 15:17:25 GMT
Has the penny finally dropped for you!? I have been saying this forever on this thread - agreeing anything with another nation reduces your sovereignty as there is always give and take in the agreement. No nation is sovereign in this international world! As with any international agreement (or treaty or EU membership), each nation can choose not to enter the agreement/treaty etc, or serve notice to leave the EU. In doing so they may recover a bit of sovereignty, but lose the benefits of whatever agreement/treaty etc they had. Nobody is tied in against their will. Well thats a take I guess, most people would view it and say you are not legally allowed to buy vaccines to save the lives of your people might be a tad too much sovereignty given up but hey we all know how much you love the EU - shouldn't you be losing your shit about germany breaking an international agreement in the same way as you all were over the IM bill ? If Germany have done as you say then the sanctions available to those affected should be sought, in accordance with whatever agreement Germany signed up to. The EU have undertaken a massive vaccine programme and my understanding is that they want it distributed fairly throughout the member states rather than a richer one, such as Germany buying them all and leaving none for a poorer one. Very fair. If a nation didn’t like it they shouldn’t have agreed to it but they did, or if they really want they can trigger Art 50. Either way, a member state can breach the agreement, but they know there will be consequences of doing so. Don’t sign up for something if you don’t want it.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 11, 2021 15:25:35 GMT
As has been said on here by Brexiteers (BJR et al) and Remainers (me for example) alike. There really is no point pointing to these small 'apparent' victories, which amount to nothing more than drops in the ocean. It will take time to really gauge whether or not Brexit turns out to be a good thing or not. In the grand scheme of things, all these tit for tat urls people are posting from all sides really mean fuck all at the moment. The success or failure of Brexit isn't going to be determined by a factory opening / closing or a few more or less fish being caught. For me personally, Brexit will measured against the state of public services, education, reducing poverty and improving sustainability. When figures and results come out relating to those areas then I'll draw my own conclusions. Well said, although how introducing barriers to trade and making the country poorer will positively impact those critical areas you highlight is hard to fathom right now. Perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised...
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