|
Post by thevoid on Dec 4, 2020 21:37:13 GMT
Seems a bit like protectionism to me. It is. Seems like the French won't compromise. France warned Friday morning that it would not hesitate to veto if the text did not suit it, in particular if it threatened the future of its fishermen. "If there was an agreement that was not good (…) , we would oppose it" , said the French Secretary of State for European Affairs, Clément Beaune, on Europe 1 . With a veto? " Yes. Each country has the right of veto ” , he warned, repeating that the risk of a non-agreement “ exists ” and that “ we must prepare for it ” French Prime Minister Jean Castex also recalled Thursday that French fishing could not be "sacrificed as an adjustment variable" in the negotiations. Post-Brexit negotiations deadlocked: Boris Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen expected to help www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2020/12/04/les-negociations-post-brexit-dans-l-impasse-boris-johnson-et-ursula-von-der-leyen-attendus-a-la-rescousse_6062251_3210.htmlThere's probably a poster on a Sochaux FC forum called 'rougeblancetbleu' who thinks that the French should stop being so xenophobic and give some consideration to their neighbours. When the French public demand that Gallic interests come first (and we even see that in Quebec, the only Canadian province without a bilingual policy), or the Scots indulge in tub-thumping nationalism (wanking over Braveheart etc) it's seen as a positive. When the English do similar, Heaven help us....
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 21:37:20 GMT
how many trade deals of this size have been agreed without compromise? And its laughable that you confuse negotiations with bullying.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 21:39:31 GMT
how many trade deals of this size have been agreed without compromise? And its laughable that you confuse negotiations with bullying. We are very much in a changing world. No one can predict the future. No one could have predicted the Coronavirus and its implications. We still can't. I believe that we will be better off making our own decisions in the interests of the UK. It appears that you believe in " Ever closer union " and leaving those decisions to others. It also appears to me that you believe that the UK should compromise on trade but the EU should not. Irrespective of that we have left the EU and are now independent of the EU such as other independent countries. They would not accept the "compromises" that the EU want us to give in to. It is the EU who is being unreasonable.
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 21:45:37 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 21:54:40 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know. I have not said that you don't want the best for your kids and the country. So do I and I would hope so do most people. I would say that you seem to think that it is the UK that has to compromise, why not the French? It is clear that Macron cannot compromise because of the interests of French fishermen. Why should we? It indeed is a matter of sovereignty as much as it is trade. And I am saying that we cannot predict the future.
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 21:58:36 GMT
We can’t predict the future but we can influence it. In terms of compromise - the strongest player will prevail, neither side will do anybody any favours it’s just each party looking after themselves.
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Dec 4, 2020 22:01:07 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know. I wonder who you might be?
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 22:04:14 GMT
Not sure what you mean? I don’t post on here often but don’t post under other name. Just prompted into action by the shit show I’m watching on the news and feel the need to vent.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Dec 4, 2020 22:06:13 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know. That’s the main reason I voted leave was for my grand children So that there future lies with a dynamic forward looking country ready to trade with the rest of the world where the growth will happen Unlike sticking with a dying protectionist cabal
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 22:08:15 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know. That’s the main reason I voted leave was for my grand children So that there future lies with a dynamic forward looking country ready to trade with the rest of the world where the growth will happen Unlike sticking with a dying protectionist cabal I really hope you’re r right and I’m wrong
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Dec 4, 2020 22:14:32 GMT
That’s the main reason I voted leave was for my grand children So that there future lies with a dynamic forward looking country ready to trade with the rest of the world where the growth will happen Unlike sticking with a dying protectionist cabal I really hope you’re r right and I’m wrong Funny enough so do I But without doubt future growth will be in developing countries And I feel that if the uk is only acting for itself it can be quicker and more nimble and be able to take advantage of events when they happen I believe that yes things maybe worse in the short term but brexit was never going to be a easy ride It’s time to strap ourselves in for a bumpy but successful ride
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 22:17:23 GMT
How many years do you consider “short term”. And what will we trade with developing nations?
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Dec 4, 2020 22:22:53 GMT
It's best to take it as it's written John I answered your question about where I would compromise. Are you prepared to answer mine directly about your willingness to accept the impact on families of no deal ? If the Governor of the BoE is not enough for the impact of no deal how about the OBR? cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/obr-warns-no-deal-brexit-will-hammer-sectors-so-far-spared-hit-from-pandemic-and-wipe-2-off-uk-output/210021I was interviewing candidates for positions recently , and when yet another said that he had recently lost his job I said I was sorry and suggested it was due to Covid, but he said that actually Brexit had prompted his employer to relocate to the EU. Now anyone can pull examples and this was indeed one person with a young family facing a bleak Christmas amongst many candidates who had lost their jobs due to Covid. Personally I believe that compromise to ensure that the one candidate jobless from Brexit this time does not become a procession in 2021. Do you?
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Dec 4, 2020 22:25:25 GMT
How many years do you consider “short term”. And what will we trade with developing nations? On the matter of time I think we could start to see a benefit within five years
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 22:26:51 GMT
Based on what?
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Dec 4, 2020 22:32:19 GMT
Belief in the people of this country to make it a success
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 22:37:29 GMT
It's best to take it as it's written John I answered your question about where I would compromise. Are you prepared to answer mine directly about your willingness to accept the impact on families of no deal ? If the Governor of the BoE is not enough for the impact of no deal how about the OBR? cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/obr-warns-no-deal-brexit-will-hammer-sectors-so-far-spared-hit-from-pandemic-and-wipe-2-off-uk-output/210021I was interviewing candidates for positions recently , and when yet another said that he had recently lost his job I said I was sorry and suggested it was due to Covid, but he said that actually Brexit had prompted his employer to relocate to the EU. Now anyone can pull examples and this was indeed one person with a young family facing a bleak Christmas amongst many candidates who had lost their jobs due to Covid. Personally I believe that compromise to ensure that the one candidate jobless from Brexit this time does not become a procession in 2021. Do you? There could well be great upheaval in the short term. There doesn't have to be , but the EU cannot accept that they have lost control. Neither you nor I can predict the future, I think it is best if we have control of it ourselves as far as possible. Within the EU the French and Germans in particular would put themselves first, and it is they who have control. We have never been enthusiastic members, hence opt outs, not being involved in the Euro ( the real EU), and the popularity of elected Eurosceptic politicians to the EzU Parliament. We decided to leave. Not to have a deal , or remain under EU control. The EU could easily compromise on the 3 sticking points, but on fisheries and the level playing field( issues any other country wouldn't even contemplate) it is they who are being unreasonable, as they are with the ridiculous idea of the European Court of Justice being the arbitrary body.
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 22:40:20 GMT
The ability of the people of this nation is never in question, however we need international partners and goods and services to trade with. Who are the targets in the first three years ( allowing time for trade deals), and what do you see as the services/goods we will offering? Blind faith is great but doesn’t pay minimum wage.
|
|
|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Dec 4, 2020 22:43:24 GMT
Belief in the people of this country to make it a success 😂 If we could all just 'believe' a bit harder then the unicorns will arrive.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 22:49:25 GMT
The ability of the people of this nation is never in question, however we need international partners and goods and services to trade with. Who are the targets in the first three years ( allowing time for trade deals), and what do you see as the services/goods we will offering? Blind faith is great but doesn’t pay minimum wage. I don't think sny Brexiteer is saying that they don't want international partners, quite the opposite. Who do you think should have control of the UK fishing waters? The UK or the EU? Who should control the French coastal fishing waters? The UK or the EU? In the case of a trade dispute should the European Court of Justice be the arbiters or should the arbiters be independent? If the UK wants to support or subsidise any of its own industries or services should it be free to do so?
|
|
|
Post by Dave the Rave on Dec 4, 2020 22:51:57 GMT
Belief in the people of this country to make it a success 😂 If we could all just 'believe' a bit harder then the unicorns will arrive. We're the greatest country on earth (I know this despite having never lived in any other countries) so it's all going to work out just fine. Stop being a traitor and support Boris.
|
|
|
Post by Dave the Rave on Dec 4, 2020 22:59:05 GMT
The ability of the people of this nation is never in question, however we need international partners and goods and services to trade with. Who are the targets in the first three years ( allowing time for trade deals), and what do you see as the services/goods we will offering? Blind faith is great but doesn’t pay minimum wage. I don't think sny Brexiteer is saying that they don't want international partners, quite the opposite. Who do you think should have control of the UK fishing waters? The UK or the EU? Who should control the French coastal fishing waters? The UK or the EU? In the case of a trade dispute should the European Court of Justice be the arbiters or should the arbiters be independent? If the UK wants to support or subsidise any of its own industries or services should it be free to do so? In answer to the last question, yes, but not whilst also wanting a free trade deal with the EU, whereby our government could give our industries a competitive advantage over those giving us tariff free access to the output of their industries, which means we get the best of their goods/services but can also make ourselves more attractive to non EU trade, damaging other non EU trade within the EU. Pretty simple really, why would the EU agree to that? If we want to go it alone and not be a part of a collective, we have to pay the tariffs that go along with that. The level playing field is a perfectly reasonable request if we want tariff free access despite no longer being a member.
|
|
|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Dec 4, 2020 23:02:03 GMT
😂 If we could all just 'believe' a bit harder then the unicorns will arrive. We're the greatest country on earth (I know this despite having never lived in any other countries) so it's all going to work out just fine. Stop being a traitor and support Boris. This might just be my favourite ever Brexit-based response. 🥇 A traitor to my country for not wishing to see the enormous economic self harm we are about to undertake and the loss of freedom of movement. And asking to pledge support for the most abysmal leader of high office this country has ever seen. You will soon discover that it is the true patriots of this country will be the ones who have to put it back together. Plenty of time for you to realise the lies you have been sold and you are all welcome back to the land of reality with no mocking.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 23:11:38 GMT
I don't think sny Brexiteer is saying that they don't want international partners, quite the opposite. Who do you think should have control of the UK fishing waters? The UK or the EU? Who should control the French coastal fishing waters? The UK or the EU? In the case of a trade dispute should the European Court of Justice be the arbiters or should the arbiters be independent? If the UK wants to support or subsidise any of its own industries or services should it be free to do so? In answer to the last question, yes, but not whilst also wanting a free trade deal with the EU, whereby our government could give our industries a competitive advantage over those giving us tariff free access to the output of their industries, which means we get the best of their goods/services but can also make ourselves more attractive to non EU trade, damaging other non EU trade within the EU. Pretty simple really, why would the EU agree to that? If we want to go it alone and not be a part of a collective, we have to pay the tariffs that go along with that. The level playing field is a perfectly reasonable request if we want tariff free access despite no longer being a member. I don't agree Dave because the EU would be totally free to subsidise their industry and services as they see fit. To have such control ourselves would be for us to be just like any other sovereign country. If that means that the EU does not give us access( not being a member) to the European market that is a decision for them. I suppose we could do the same in respect of our market for example in respect of Wine or BMW, or Renaults, or Fiats. It is a question of control and Sovereignty not trade. What about the other questions?
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Dec 4, 2020 23:11:56 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know. We all want that, but have differing views on how that is best achieved.
|
|
|
Post by stepenwoolf on Dec 4, 2020 23:20:48 GMT
Wrong, wrong wrong, you presume too much John. I just want what’s best for my kids and country. Selfish I know. We all want that, but have differing views on how that is best achieved. Whilst being part of then EU this country has afforded me every opportunity that I was prepared to work hard for, my kids opportunities will be limited by brexit and that is a stone cold fact.
|
|
|
Post by Dave the Rave on Dec 4, 2020 23:22:22 GMT
In answer to the last question, yes, but not whilst also wanting a free trade deal with the EU, whereby our government could give our industries a competitive advantage over those giving us tariff free access to the output of their industries, which means we get the best of their goods/services but can also make ourselves more attractive to non EU trade, damaging other non EU trade within the EU. Pretty simple really, why would the EU agree to that? If we want to go it alone and not be a part of a collective, we have to pay the tariffs that go along with that. The level playing field is a perfectly reasonable request if we want tariff free access despite no longer being a member. I don't agree Dave because the EU would be totally free to subsidise their industry and services as they see fit. To have such control ourselves would be for us to be just like any other sovereign country. If that means that the EU does not give us access( not being a member) to the European market that is a decision for them. I suppose we could do the same in respect of our market for example in respect of Wine or BMW, or Renaults, or Fiats. It is a question of control and Sovereignty not trade. What about the other questions? I don't know enough about the others to feel able to comment. If I knew what was best for this country in every aspect of international trade I'd be in Government (I'd hope). All I do know is that in general human beings tend to achieve more together than alone, so I tend to support collective efforts to solving problems.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 23:29:44 GMT
I don't agree Dave because the EU would be totally free to subsidise their industry and services as they see fit. To have such control ourselves would be for us to be just like any other sovereign country. If that means that the EU does not give us access( not being a member) to the European market that is a decision for them. I suppose we could do the same in respect of our market for example in respect of Wine or BMW, or Renaults, or Fiats. It is a question of control and Sovereignty not trade. What about the other questions? I don't know enough about the others to feel able to comment. If I knew what was best for this country in every aspect of international trade I'd be in Government (I'd hope). All I do know is that in general human beings tend to achieve more together than alone, so I tend to support collective efforts to solving problems. I agree entirely. I too think that we should work together and respect each other in so doing. That's presumably why we are trying to achieve a trade deal , just like other free independent countries trade with each other, without compromising Sovereignty. Surely the other questions aren't too difficult in comparison.....they don't require in depth knowledge, particularly in comparison to the last question.
|
|
|
Post by Dave the Rave on Dec 4, 2020 23:34:01 GMT
I don't know enough about the others to feel able to comment. If I knew what was best for this country in every aspect of international trade I'd be in Government (I'd hope). All I do know is that in general human beings tend to achieve more together than alone, so I tend to support collective efforts to solving problems. I agree entirely. I too think that we should work together and respect each other in so doing. That's presumably why we are trying to achieve a trade deal , just like other free independent countries trade with each other, without compromising Sovereignty. Surely the other questions aren't too difficult in comparison.....they don't require in depth knowledge, particularly in comparison to the last question. I don't understand the consequences of us controlling our own fishing waters or not though. It's an industry I have zero knowledge of. It may be in our interests to allow other nations to fish our waters more than we do? I literally have no idea. I'm sure there's a reason we sold off our fishing quotas years back? I assume we don't need them? In terms of the ECJ, I assume they are independent as all judiciaries should be? But again, I don't actually know. I'm just a bloke from Stoke who prior to 2016 had barely heard a peep about the EU in my entire life.
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Dec 4, 2020 23:45:49 GMT
We all want that, but have differing views on how that is best achieved. Whilst being part of then EU this country has afforded me every opportunity that I was prepared to work hard for, my kids opportunities will be limited by brexit and that is a stone cold fact. I see it completely the opposite way. Whilst being part of the EU I felt I, my friends and family would have had more opportunity without being part of it and I now see more opportunity for my children and grandchildren. No one can say what will be a stone cold fact, the persistent gloomy economic Armageddon’s that were to happen every day not coming to pass is evidence of that. Who knows what the future will end up being, but I see it as a lot more positive.
|
|