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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 16, 2020 14:48:02 GMT
Love how the remainers on this board appear to blindly assume that the EU are in no part to blame for the no deal conclusion.
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 14:54:05 GMT
The model works mainly because Australia started talks over a free trade deal nearly two and a half years ago but still doesn’t have one. Look into your future I’m not sure how the hypothetical scenario of “if Labour were in power” is relevant to this. And in fairness it’s entirely impossible to say whether we’d be better, worse or the same if they were. We are where we are. We indeed are where we are....we have left the EU in accordance with the expressed wishes of the electorate in a referendum and in elections. No point continuing to moan. And Australia is only cited as an independent country....that trades. I guess that bo country or system would meet your standards. There is every point in moaning if you feel your government is incompetent, dishonest, corrupt, or all of the above. That’s called democracy and I would politely suggest that there’s no point in you continuing to moan about that aspect of it, while purporting to be pro-democracy My beef is nothing to do with the act of leaving the EU, rather the manner in which the departure has been, and continues to be, managed.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 14:54:06 GMT
That's always been the case, irrespective of the government in power..... and irrespective of Brexit. Soros made billions as we know on lack Wednesday. Labour have equally lived with the system. An uphill battle but those who want to change the system have got to get into power, which , short of revolution ( which wouldn't go down well in a democracy), means appealing to the electorate/ the masses....the Left/ Labour have failed to do this.....ok, for a plethora of reasons....but , in my opinion, one current reason was/ is their opposition to Brexit....the biggest political issue of the times....hence Farage and Johnson....and Rees Morgan....no real use in blaming them or the electorate. You don't want to blame people on 'betting' on the country to fail and pushing for no deal, despite the Governments own conclusion that it will be a disaster? I'm not sure that is what they are doing.....are they betting on the country to fail? But my point is that irrespective of the government, Labour, Tory or other, the market dealers have and will make money from their " speculation s"
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 14:55:20 GMT
We indeed are where we are....we have left the EU in accordance with the expressed wishes of the electorate in a referendum and in elections. No point continuing to moan. And Australia is only cited as an independent country....that trades. I guess that bo country or system would meet your standards. There is every point in moaning if you feel your government is incompetent, dishonest, corrupt, or all of the above. That’s called democracy and I would politely suggest that there’s no point in you continuing to moan about that aspect of it, while purporting to be pro-democracy My beef is nothing to do with the act of leaving the EU, rather the manner in which the departure has been, and continues to be, managed. Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 14:56:57 GMT
You seem to make it so easy to judge the ones...that seem to suit your argument....just wondering how you make your assessments I make my assessments based on things I’ve read, learned and experienced in my life. This isn’t an unusual basis on which to make assessments. It’s also not unusual (outside the Oatcake at any rate ) to admit if something isn’t within your knowledge base. Institutional racism in Armenia being a prime example... It has nothing to do with suiting my argument - Australia is what was being talked about in the thread. If you’re triggered by that then I’m sorry you feel that way Exactly, Australia as an example of an independent country with whom we ( and therefore obviously the EU)trade, if not ideally....even if it is " institutionally racist"....perhaps the EU should stop trading with them....and Saudi Arabia, and China....and the UK?.....Ithink Canada has been mentioned as well.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 16, 2020 15:01:27 GMT
Love how the remainers on this board appear to blindly assume that the EU are in no part to blame for the no deal conclusion. Nobody is. They are, however, commenting on the "million to one chance against a deal not happening" as confidently asserted by Bluffer...
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Post by Linx on Oct 16, 2020 15:16:11 GMT
There is every point in moaning if you feel your government is incompetent, dishonest, corrupt, or all of the above. That’s called democracy and I would politely suggest that there’s no point in you continuing to moan about that aspect of it, while purporting to be pro-democracy My beef is nothing to do with the act of leaving the EU, rather the manner in which the departure has been, and continues to be, managed. Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for. Utter nonsense. Remainers have had zero influence on any of the negotiations and the Pro-Brexit cheerleaders in the press have maintained a mood of anti-European jingoism athat you clearly have lapped up. Your mess. You lie in it.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 15:24:06 GMT
Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for. Utter nonsense. Remainers have had zero influence on any of the negotiations and the Pro-Brexit cheerleaders in the press have maintained a mood of anti-European jingoism athat you clearly have lapped up. Your mess. You lie in it. It would have been much better for the uk if the result of the referendum had been accepted from the outset. All the nonsense about hard and soft Brexits, second referendums, court cases, collusion with the EU, bollox to Brexit etc has undermined the UK position and encouraged the EU. And it has lost alot of valuable time. The " current " mess" is because of the reluctance of the EU to recognise that we are independent and to negotiate in good faith. And Brexiteers are not anti European....quite the reverse. Euroscepticism is not confined to the UK.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 16, 2020 15:35:02 GMT
Love how the remainers on this board appear to blindly assume that the EU are in no part to blame for the no deal conclusion. We chose to leave the club. It is up to the club as to whether or not they want to change their rules to play with us. I don't understand why that is so hard for Leavers to accept?
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Post by Linx on Oct 16, 2020 15:36:48 GMT
Utter nonsense. Remainers have had zero influence on any of the negotiations and the Pro-Brexit cheerleaders in the press have maintained a mood of anti-European jingoism athat you clearly have lapped up. Your mess. You lie in it. It would have been much better for the uk if the result of the referendum had been accepted from the outset. All the nonsense about hard and soft Brexits, second referendums, court cases, collusion with the EU, bollox to Brexit etc has undermined the UK position and encouraged the EU. The " current " mess" is because of the reluctance of the EU to recognise that we are independent and to negotiate in good faith. And Brexiteers are not anti European....quite the reverse. Euroscepticism is not confined to the UK. Nothing to do with the fact that economically, we will always play the weaker hand by being alone in negotiations with a 27 nation, 400+ million population trading bloc? Suddenly, standing proud and alone doesn’t look so good. It will look even worse when we try to get anything like a decent trade deal out of China and the USA, and for the same reasons. I’ve never understood what on Earth the country as a whole looked to gain from Brexit. The Tory boys in the city and their friends will love it but for everyone else, it will be the biggest exercise in self harm that was ever committed by a nation state since Paraguay decided to go to war with all its bigger neighbours as a vanity project on behalf of its dictatorial president. But any arguments on here will not cause a change of view from either side, so I’m gonna bug out and just talk about football.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 16, 2020 15:41:50 GMT
Love how the remainers on this board appear to blindly assume that the EU are in no part to blame for the no deal conclusion. We chose to leave the club. It is up to the club as to whether or not they want to change their rules to play with us. I don't understand why that is so hard for Leavers to accept? Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything?
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 16, 2020 15:42:38 GMT
I prefer deliver of freedom myself but each to are own
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 16, 2020 15:50:05 GMT
Love how the remainers on this board appear to blindly assume that the EU are in no part to blame for the no deal conclusion. Bang on there’s none so blind as those who don’t want to see Shall enjoy watching macron squirming whilst he explains to his fisherman he’s got no quota at all
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 15:52:37 GMT
It would have been much better for the uk if the result of the referendum had been accepted from the outset. All the nonsense about hard and soft Brexits, second referendums, court cases, collusion with the EU, bollox to Brexit etc has undermined the UK position and encouraged the EU. The " current " mess" is because of the reluctance of the EU to recognise that we are independent and to negotiate in good faith. And Brexiteers are not anti European....quite the reverse. Euroscepticism is not confined to the UK. Nothing to do with the fact that economically, we will always play the weaker hand by being alone in negotiations with a 27 nation, 400+ million population trading bloc? Suddenly, standing proud and alone doesn’t look so good. It will look even worse when we try to get anything like a decent trade deal out of China and the USA, and for the same reasons. I’ve never understood what on Earth the country as a whole looked to gain from Brexit. The Tory boys in the city and their friends will love it but for everyone else, it will be the biggest exercise in self harm that was ever committed by a nation state since Paraguay decided to go to war with all its bigger neighbours as a vanity project on behalf of its dictatorial president. But any arguments on here will not cause a change of view from either side, so I’m gonna bug out and just talk about football. Leaving the EU is and was a non-party political issue. Hence people from all party political persuasions had differing views, for and against. Many remainers have tried to depict it as a right wing cause, simply because they lost. Two of the biggest Brexiteers have been Benn and Corbyn....not to mention MPs such as Hoey and Stuart ( of German descent)....but of course the left need to ignore this ....in my opinion self determination, democracy should be as close to the people as possible aqnd is a greater issue for the working class, but unfortunately the left have completely lost their way on it...and consequently lost a large part of the working class vote through it....and lost the election.....and the continued resistance to the decision is further undermining their credibility. And the referendum was about being a member of a top down organisation whose purpose is political and economic union of the countries of Europe not about trade. Really Remainers ought to have made the argument that they are in favour of that union....a reasonable position...but that argument has never been convincingly made to the British people...probably because those driving the project know that it would be rejected. Hence ever closer union by stealth.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 16, 2020 15:57:37 GMT
Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for. Utter nonsense. Remainers have had zero influence on any of the negotiations and the Pro-Brexit cheerleaders in the press have maintained a mood of anti-European jingoism athat you clearly have lapped up. Your mess. You lie in it. Every Leaver, like every Tory generally, needs someone else to blame for their fuck up. You see it over and over again. Always has to be someone else's fault.
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 16:02:51 GMT
I make my assessments based on things I’ve read, learned and experienced in my life. This isn’t an unusual basis on which to make assessments. It’s also not unusual (outside the Oatcake at any rate ) to admit if something isn’t within your knowledge base. Institutional racism in Armenia being a prime example... It has nothing to do with suiting my argument - Australia is what was being talked about in the thread. If you’re triggered by that then I’m sorry you feel that way Exactly, Australia as an example of an independent country with whom we ( and therefore obviously the EU)trade, if not ideally....even if it is " institutionally racist"....perhaps the EU should stop trading with them....and Saudi Arabia, and China....and the UK?.....Ithink Canada has been mentioned as well. The point is why all this highlighting of Australia? Why is it something to aspire to? It has the same export rights with the EU as fucking Afghanistan or Peru (or for that matter Saudi Arabia or China) so why make out that it’s some kind of great example to aim for?
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 16:04:25 GMT
We chose to leave the club. It is up to the club as to whether or not they want to change their rules to play with us. I don't understand why that is so hard for Leavers to accept? Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything? Because we’ve signed contracts that are legally binding maybe?
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 16, 2020 16:06:57 GMT
Utter nonsense. Remainers have had zero influence on any of the negotiations and the Pro-Brexit cheerleaders in the press have maintained a mood of anti-European jingoism athat you clearly have lapped up. Your mess. You lie in it. Every Leaver, like every Tory generally, needs someone else to blame for their fuck up. You see it over and over again. Always has to be someone else's fault. What fuck up I voted for this country to be a independent sovereign nation And this government looks like delivering on this
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 16, 2020 16:10:39 GMT
We chose to leave the club. It is up to the club as to whether or not they want to change their rules to play with us. I don't understand why that is so hard for Leavers to accept? Sorry? That makes absolute no sense. It's like saying "you chose to leave our old boys club and we are therefore going to continue to steal out of your bank account and seize control of stuff that you own". Why the fuck do we owe the EU anything? I don' get what you're saying. What are they stealing exactly? Say the Big 6 leave the PL so they can play more lucrative games amongst themselves and with other teams globally. They also say they want to keep playing games with the other PL teams, but on their terms. The PL might think that, yes, playing games with the Big 6 would bring benefits , but surely it's the PL's choice as to whether or not they accept the terms? Why should they be blamed if they come to a collective decision that to play with the Big 6 on the terms demanded is not the right thing for them- they did not kick the Big6 out in the first place.
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 16:11:13 GMT
There is every point in moaning if you feel your government is incompetent, dishonest, corrupt, or all of the above. That’s called democracy and I would politely suggest that there’s no point in you continuing to moan about that aspect of it, while purporting to be pro-democracy My beef is nothing to do with the act of leaving the EU, rather the manner in which the departure has been, and continues to be, managed. Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for. Laying all the blame at the door of remainers and the EU is false and divisive (and I say that as someone who voted to leave). Your little blame game is of course exactly the stance that Johnson and Cummings want you to adopt. You’re easier to con if you’re constantly looking the wrong way if/when it all goes to shit
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 16:14:09 GMT
Every Leaver, like every Tory generally, needs someone else to blame for their fuck up. You see it over and over again. Always has to be someone else's fault. What fuck up I voted for this country to be a independent sovereign nation And this government looks like delivering on this Just to be clear, we were an independent sovereign nation before Brexit. We have been since 1066 I think. The only slight wobble was 1939-approx 1942 but we remained an independent sovereign nation through that too
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 16:30:36 GMT
Exactly, Australia as an example of an independent country with whom we ( and therefore obviously the EU)trade, if not ideally....even if it is " institutionally racist"....perhaps the EU should stop trading with them....and Saudi Arabia, and China....and the UK?.....Ithink Canada has been mentioned as well. The point is why all this highlighting of Australia? Why is it something to aspire to? It has the same export rights with the EU as fucking Afghanistan or Peru (or for that matter Saudi Arabia or China) so why make out that it’s some kind of great example to aim for? It isn't something to aspire to. I think that Johnson is saying that as the EU will not accept the UK's independence and treat us as an independent country such as Canada....ie they won't agree to a Canadian deal....we are left with an Australian type deal. The reason thst the EU will not give us a Canadian type deal , is that they don't want the possibility of a successful independent country being on their doorstep, they don't want a country that has been a member of the EU to become successful having left and because they don't want to relinquish political and economic control. Why di you think we aren't able to have a Canadian type deal?
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 16, 2020 16:33:49 GMT
What fuck up I voted for this country to be a independent sovereign nation And this government looks like delivering on this Just to be clear, we were an independent sovereign nation before Brexit. We have been since 1066 I think. The only slight wobble was 1939-approx 1942 but we remained an independent sovereign nation through that too Actually, we were bankrupt in 1941! Hence Roosevelt offering us a Lend Lease deal! Buy now pay later! We also accepted post war economic strings too?
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Post by foster on Oct 16, 2020 16:36:49 GMT
Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for. Laying all the blame at the door of remainers and the EU is false and divisive (and I say that as someone who voted to leave). Your little blame game is of course exactly the stance that Johnson and Cummings want you to adopt. You’re easier to con if you’re constantly looking the wrong way if/when it all goes to shit Quite right. We're well past the 2nd referendum now and if all goes to shit it's down to the politicians not being able to live up to their false promises. Of course it may not work out badly. I'm just saying that continuing to blame Remainers is a load of bollocks and simply deflecting from reality.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 16:38:17 GMT
Yes, the EU and Remainers who will not accept the UK leaving have indeed got a lot to answer for. Laying all the blame at the door of remainers and the EU is false and divisive (and I say that as someone who voted to leave). Your little blame game is of course exactly the stance that Johnson and Cummings want you to adopt. You’re easier to con if you’re constantly looking the wrong way if/when it all goes to shit I don't think the electorate appreciated all the shenanigans following the referendum result , hence they turned to Boris to deliver Brexit. The antics of those that resisted the result didn't do the country any good and gave the electorate no alternative but to choose Boris..... Sad thing is STILL those on the left in particular are in denial......which will only result in letting down those they purport to represent....they have a lot to answer for. Do you accept that the UK in a referendum narrowly decided to leave the EU....or does acceptance have to have exceptions, ifs and buts?
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 16:38:37 GMT
Just to be clear, we were an independent sovereign nation before Brexit. We have been since 1066 I think. The only slight wobble was 1939-approx 1942 but we remained an independent sovereign nation through that too Actually, we were bankrupt in 1941! Hence Roosevelt offering us a Lend Lease deal! Buy now pay later! We also accepted post war economic strings too? We only finished paying off our great friends the Americans in about 2005 didn’t we? No Marshall Plan for us. Gotta love that special relationship
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 16, 2020 16:40:31 GMT
Well done Frosty the No man
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 16, 2020 16:40:43 GMT
Every Leaver, like every Tory generally, needs someone else to blame for their fuck up. You see it over and over again. Always has to be someone else's fault. What fuck up I voted for this country to be a independent sovereign nation And this government looks like delivering on this Me too. This combined with Boris's refusal to bow down to Labour's absurd plea for a second national lockdown is refreshing and the first sign we've seen of Boris showing some form of resilience and competence.
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 16, 2020 16:41:18 GMT
The point is why all this highlighting of Australia? Why is it something to aspire to? It has the same export rights with the EU as fucking Afghanistan or Peru (or for that matter Saudi Arabia or China) so why make out that it’s some kind of great example to aim for? It isn't something to aspire to. I think that Johnson is saying that as the EU will not accept the UK's independence and treat us as an independent country such as Canada....ie they won't agree to a Canadian deal....we are left with an Australian type deal. The reason thst the EU will not give us a Canadian type deal , is that they don't want the possibility of a successful independent country being on their doorstep, they don't want a country that has been a member of the EU to become successful having left and because they don't want to relinquish political and economic control. Why di you think we aren't able to have a Canadian type deal? Because we’re not Canada? Also Canada has lots of natural historical ties with France, which probably doesn’t hurt.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 16, 2020 16:42:54 GMT
Actually, we were bankrupt in 1941! Hence Roosevelt offering us a Lend Lease deal! Buy now pay later! We also accepted post war economic strings too? We only finished paying off our great friends the Americans in about 2005 didn’t we? No Marshall Plan for us. Gotta love that special relationship I agree that most countries are not perfect. You don't seem to like Australia nor America. Do you like France, Germany, Saudi Arabia and the UK?
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