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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 24, 2020 17:11:20 GMT
I confidently believe that there will be a free trade deal with the EU at the end of the day when the two sides eventually make an agreement. So "barriers" like the Irish Sea and Kent border will just be temporary arrangements (if indeed they actually happen) till both sides see sense. That may take a failure to agree and a rough period before common sense prevails. As for the HoL, learn your history. Power has never been "handed over" to the HoL, it has been eroded over centuries and gradually reduced. It is sustained by our rotten "establishment" which includes almost as many Labour and Lib Dem peers as Tories. The one's who don't respect the will of the people, and think they know better. Given I’m supposed to be holding up a deal shouldn’t you be asking me when I’m going to agree one? Haha! As for Duffy all her qualifications in the world doesn’t stop her from being an evil piece of work? If madam is your apotheosis of British democracy I suggest you book an appointment wiith a British doctor?👉 Nicholas, We have left the EU.There are many explanations as to why people voted as they did. One possible explanation is that the majority of the electorate who voted did not want to be part of the European Union, but would prefer sovereignty and independence You might not agree with them, but that's the way it went. Now we have left, do you hope that the UK heads for decline, disaster and failure ( judging by your criteria) so that you can be proved " right". Is that what matters? Because you can believe that you were "right" in perpetuity.....it doesn't really " get us anywhere "...You could simply believe that you've won the argument. I've said many times things won't be easy for a number of years....because the EU cannot accept the loss of Political control, that's what the Treaties and the UNION is about ( and that's why the British public rejected it). If they wanted to, the EU could agree a free trade deal , Canadian style... but of course it is too much to give up on Ever Closer Union....of course they don't have to agree to such a deal....I would have thought that the UK would. And following December 31st we then enter a new chapter, obviously the EU will continue to make it difficult for us, but I expect that you, as a British citizen,hope that we make the best of a bad decision. Perhaps if it gets so bad, there needs to be political pressure to rejoin......is that the hope?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 24, 2020 17:27:50 GMT
Given I’m supposed to be holding up a deal shouldn’t you be asking me when I’m going to agree one? Haha! As for Duffy all her qualifications in the world doesn’t stop her from being an evil piece of work? If madam is your apotheosis of British democracy I suggest you book an appointment wiith a British doctor?👉 Nicholas, We have left the EU.There are many explanations as to why people voted as they did. One possible explanation is that the majority of the electorate who voted did not want to be part of the European Union, but would prefer sovereignty and independence You might not agree with them, but that's the way it went. Now we have left, do you hope that the UK heads for decline, disaster and failure ( judging by your criteria) so that you can be proved " right". Is that what matters? Because you can believe that you were "right" in perpetuity.....it doesn't really " get us anywhere "...You could simply believe that you've won the argument. I've said many times things won't be easy for a number of years....because the EU cannot accept the loss of Political control, that's what the Treaties and the UNION is about ( and that's why the British public rejected it). If they wanted to, the EU could agree a free trade deal , Canadian style... but of course it is too much to give up on Ever Closer Union....of course they don't have to agree to such a deal....I would have thought that the UK would. And following December 31st we then enter a new chapter, obviously the EU will continue to make it difficult for us, but I expect that you, as a British citizen,hope that we make the best of a bad decision. Perhaps if it gets so bad, there needs to be political pressure to rejoin......is that the hope? It's as transparent as hell John. In an age when nations are breaking up and/or regions are wanting more localised, devolved power- Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Spain, USA, not forgetting here- I'd be amazed if the EU with it's different languages and cultures lasted long term.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2020 17:47:30 GMT
Given I’m supposed to be holding up a deal shouldn’t you be asking me when I’m going to agree one? Haha! As for Duffy all her qualifications in the world doesn’t stop her from being an evil piece of work? If madam is your apotheosis of British democracy I suggest you book an appointment wiith a British doctor?👉 Nicholas, We have left the EU.There are many explanations as to why people voted as they did. One possible explanation is that the majority of the electorate who voted did not want to be part of the European Union, but would prefer sovereignty and independence You might not agree with them, but that's the way it went. Now we have left, do you hope that the UK heads for decline, disaster and failure ( judging by your criteria) so that you can be proved " right". Is that what matters? Because you can believe that you were "right" in perpetuity.....it doesn't really " get us anywhere "...You could simply believe that you've won the argument. I've said many times things won't be easy for a number of years....because the EU cannot accept the loss of Political control, that's what the Treaties and the UNION is about ( and that's why the British public rejected it). If they wanted to, the EU could agree a free trade deal , Canadian style... but of course it is too much to give up on Ever Closer Union....of course they don't have to agree to such a deal....I would have thought that the UK would. And following December 31st we then enter a new chapter, obviously the EU will continue to make it difficult for us, but I expect that you, as a British citizen,hope that we make the best of a bad decision. Perhaps if it gets so bad, there needs to be political pressure to rejoin......is that the hope? What's your message for the citizens of Gibraltar John?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 24, 2020 18:08:45 GMT
Forgive me but I understood Bunter had cleared out all the ‘‘Remainiacs’ from the Cabinet! The backswoodsmen in the Tory party got rid of any ‘Remainiacs’ from the HoC. Yet, mysteriously the ’Remainiacs’ are to blame for the shambles the Brexiters are creating?! How convenient for you lot! Next year I will get a letter about my state pension from the DWP! OMG! No, not the unelected bureaucracy! Let’s us all refuse to have anything to do with these unelected bureaucrats and refuse to claim our pensions, sickness and disability benefits, tax credits from these bureaucrats? 😱 The Remainiacs I was referring to are people like you, Blair, Major, House of Lords, etc. who refuse to accept the decision of the people. In a way the Remainiacs are partly to blame for the lack of progress on a trade deal, as they encourage the EU to think Britain will give way to their demands, and not respect our sovereignty as much as Japan or Canada, despite having a massive positive trade balance with the UK. The DWP is a government department headed by an MP Therese Duffy, who is a science graduate, highly qualified and experienced in finance, and worked in industry before entering politics. That's how government works in the UK, civil servants are responsible to elected politicians. Unlike the EU Commision who are not only unelected, the UK has been repeatedly failed in opposing appointments of people who have been found to be corrupt. The EU Commission is in effect committed to less and less democracy in the EU by ever closer union. Fortunately the people's will will ultimately prevail and the EU will fragment, like the Soviet Union. In fact I doubt the EU will last as long as the Soviet Union. We are agreed that our politicians of all colours preside over shambles, but we put them there and we have the power at general elections to remove them. "Bunter" & Co. will be removed in time, they all are eventually. I really don't think the EU needs any encouragement from "Remainiacs" given that David Davis at the outset and a succession of government ministers responsible for Brexit have been woeful during the negotiations, plus the farce of our own elected government pushing an Agreement which they then propose to break international law to ignore. People most Brexiteers will have voted for in fact! If anything is to blame, it's voters' misplaced trust in these incompetents. Something that has been apparent from the moment Gove and the Bluffer fucked off the moment they realised they'd actually won! "Remainiacs" are a convenient smokescreen around this though, I suppose. The EU will have to collapse pretty quickly if it's to die before the Soviet Union. The latter lasted 69 years. The EU celebrated its 60th birthday in 2017, only six years younger at present. You seemed to have changed your tune somewhat in that regard too - I recall you saying no-one wants the EU to collapse and fall apart. Or are you just predicting what will happen rather than wanting it like so many others on here?
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Sept 24, 2020 18:24:35 GMT
Right. I don't remember that being a selling point during the referendum campaign - you'll need permission to drive into a part of England from England Having a new border in the Irish Sea was farcical enough, but this takes it to another level! Blockading the ports is contrary to Art 34 to 36 of TFEU which breaks international law. Which raises an interesting point. When, rather than if, the French start their shenanigans on 1st of January will they exempt Irish/EU goods from the blockade or break international law? I'm glad you've raised this point. Sounds like what we need is some sort of arrangement where there is a reduction in the red tape needed to travel friction free between the 2 countries. If we could get rid of tariffs to support our exports aswell that would be a bonus.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 24, 2020 18:27:45 GMT
I presume there are no longer calls for a second referendum because the chances of getting one are non-existent so why waste breath on it. Despite the fact that polls have consistently shown buyer's regret in relation to Brexit for about three years! I think most of the 'carping' as you put it is less about the government rolling over and more about pointing out the farcical nonsense that Brexit is continuing to produce: international law-breaking by our own government; a new border in the Irish Sea and now English people requiring permission to drive from one part of England to another! If it wasn't such a car crash it'd be funny. Can you begin to imagine the shitstorm that Brexiteers would create if, say, a Labour administration introduced such measures for no reason? But, it's fine, it's Brexit, we'll put up with any old bollocks in the name of Brexit! You already live in a country which has handed over power to an unelected bureaucracy (the House of Lords - currently swelling in number thanks to the Bluffer) and you pay handsomely for the privilege...will you be advocating getting rid of that next? I'd support you if you did! I confidently believe that there will be a free trade deal with the EU at the end of the day when the two sides eventually make an agreement. So "barriers" like the Irish Sea and Kent border will just be temporary arrangements (if indeed they actually happen) till both sides see sense. That may take a failure to agree and a rough period before common sense prevails. As for the HoL, learn your history. Power has never been "handed over" to the HoL, it has been eroded over centuries and gradually reduced. It is sustained by our rotten "establishment" which includes almost as many Labour and Lib Dem peers as Tories. The one's who don't respect the will of the people, and think they know better. I agree. I've said before that some form of cobbled together agreement will be forged, which allows both sides to claim 'victory' of one sort or another. However, I'm slightly less convinced now that the government is threatening to tear up the WA legislation. We'll see. The point about the HoL was obvious - you can't whine about unelected bureaucrats in Europe without focussing attention closer to home, (which does seem to be a bit of a regular oversight of yours ), ie the HoL. It's just the same, if not even worse. 794 current sitting members with an additional 30 odd thanks to Bluffer about to join, none of whom were elected. While the Commissioners are not directly elected (but appointed by national governments) the European parliament (which is elected) votes on their proposed legislation. What's more, in almost every recent UK government, about a fifth of ministers are actually unelected peers, with several often being in Cabinet. So, not only do we have an unelected House which scrutinises our legislation, some of that legislation may have been formulated by unelected peers in the first place. The UK parliamentary process is not quite the contrasting paragon of democratic virtue some would have us believe!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 24, 2020 18:28:17 GMT
Blockading the ports is contrary to Art 34 to 36 of TFEU which breaks international law. Which raises an interesting point. When, rather than if, the French start their shenanigans on 1st of January will they exempt Irish/EU goods from the blockade or break international law? I'm glad you've raised this point. Sounds like what we need is some sort of arrangement where there is a reduction in the red tape needed to travel friction free between the 2 countries. If we could get rid of tariffs to support our exports aswell that would be a bonus.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 24, 2020 18:44:40 GMT
Nicholas, We have left the EU.There are many explanations as to why people voted as they did. One possible explanation is that the majority of the electorate who voted did not want to be part of the European Union, but would prefer sovereignty and independence You might not agree with them, but that's the way it went. Now we have left, do you hope that the UK heads for decline, disaster and failure ( judging by your criteria) so that you can be proved " right". Is that what matters? Because you can believe that you were "right" in perpetuity.....it doesn't really " get us anywhere "...You could simply believe that you've won the argument. I've said many times things won't be easy for a number of years....because the EU cannot accept the loss of Political control, that's what the Treaties and the UNION is about ( and that's why the British public rejected it). If they wanted to, the EU could agree a free trade deal , Canadian style... but of course it is too much to give up on Ever Closer Union....of course they don't have to agree to such a deal....I would have thought that the UK would. And following December 31st we then enter a new chapter, obviously the EU will continue to make it difficult for us, but I expect that you, as a British citizen,hope that we make the best of a bad decision. Perhaps if it gets so bad, there needs to be political pressure to rejoin......is that the hope? What's your message for the citizens of Gibraltar John? I did point out before the referendum that Gibraltar and Northern Ireland would be issues. As will the Falklands. I don't think that I'm knowledgeable or important enough to give a message to " the people of Gibraltar "....the future of Gibraltar is a matter for the Gibraltarians
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 24, 2020 18:46:43 GMT
The Remainiacs I was referring to are people like you, Blair, Major, House of Lords, etc. who refuse to accept the decision of the people. In a way the Remainiacs are partly to blame for the lack of progress on a trade deal, as they encourage the EU to think Britain will give way to their demands, and not respect our sovereignty as much as Japan or Canada, despite having a massive positive trade balance with the UK. The DWP is a government department headed by an MP Therese Duffy, who is a science graduate, highly qualified and experienced in finance, and worked in industry before entering politics. That's how government works in the UK, civil servants are responsible to elected politicians. Unlike the EU Commision who are not only unelected, the UK has been repeatedly failed in opposing appointments of people who have been found to be corrupt. The EU Commission is in effect committed to less and less democracy in the EU by ever closer union. Fortunately the people's will will ultimately prevail and the EU will fragment, like the Soviet Union. In fact I doubt the EU will last as long as the Soviet Union. We are agreed that our politicians of all colours preside over shambles, but we put them there and we have the power at general elections to remove them. "Bunter" & Co. will be removed in time, they all are eventually. I really don't think the EU needs any encouragement from "Remainiacs" given that David Davis at the outset and a succession of government ministers responsible for Brexit have been woeful during the negotiations, plus the farce of our own elected government pushing an Agreement which they then propose to break international law to ignore. People most Brexiteers will have voted for in fact! If anything is to blame, it's voters' misplaced trust in these incompetents. Something that has been apparent from the moment Gove and the Bluffer fucked off the moment they realised they'd actually won! "Remainiacs" are a convenient smokescreen around this though, I suppose. The EU will have to collapse pretty quickly if it's to die before the Soviet Union. The latter lasted 69 years. The EU celebrated its 60th birthday in 2017, only six years younger at present. You seemed to have changed your tune somewhat in that regard too - I recall you saying no-one wants the EU to collapse and fall apart. Or are you just predicting what will happen rather than wanting it like so many others on here? Most of what we debate is opionion based on our personal knowledge and experience, such as membership of the EU or the debate on negotiations. But again today you are showing ignorance of history. The EU was created in 1997 at Maastricht, when European citizenship was founded and single currency followed. I was very much in favour of the EEC and voted to stay in in the 1970s, but the EU is a different organization, not just free trade, but loss of sovereignty and ever closer union. I am implacably opposed to loss of the sovereignty of our parliament. We may think our politicians are useless, but at least we elect them and can remove them. I believe we should be like Australia and Canada and most countries, free to rule ourselves, not like Italy, Greece and others begging for handouts from Germany. The EU is now even forcing Germany to cough up financing southern Europe. How long do you think it can go on? There are separatist movements in most European countries that will grow as dissatisfaction mounts. Ireland has done brilliantly out of the EU, but now they will have to make net contributions which will increase and have most of their trade outside the EU how long will it be before Ireland wants its independence again? We have the 6th biggest economy in the world with most of the top 20 economies outside the EU, and over 90% of future world growth outside the EU. That is where this countries future lies, not trapped in a United European state, run by bureaucrats in Brussels and puppet parliament flitting between Brussels and Strasboug.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2020 18:55:50 GMT
What's your message for the citizens of Gibraltar John? I did point out before the referendum that Gibraltar and Northern Ireland would be issues. As will the Falklands. I don't think that I'm knowledgeable or important enough to give a message to " the people of Gibraltar "....the future of Gibraltar is a matter for the Gibraltarians I’m sure the 2% that voted leave are more than happy.....
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 24, 2020 18:59:29 GMT
I really don't think the EU needs any encouragement from "Remainiacs" given that David Davis at the outset and a succession of government ministers responsible for Brexit have been woeful during the negotiations, plus the farce of our own elected government pushing an Agreement which they then propose to break international law to ignore. People most Brexiteers will have voted for in fact! If anything is to blame, it's voters' misplaced trust in these incompetents. Something that has been apparent from the moment Gove and the Bluffer fucked off the moment they realised they'd actually won! "Remainiacs" are a convenient smokescreen around this though, I suppose. The EU will have to collapse pretty quickly if it's to die before the Soviet Union. The latter lasted 69 years. The EU celebrated its 60th birthday in 2017, only six years younger at present. You seemed to have changed your tune somewhat in that regard too - I recall you saying no-one wants the EU to collapse and fall apart. Or are you just predicting what will happen rather than wanting it like so many others on here? Most of what we debate is opionion based on our personal knowledge and experience, such as membership of the EU or the debate on negotiations. But again today you are showing ignorance of history. The EU was created in 1997 at Maastricht, when European citizenship was founded and single currency followed. I was very much in favour of the EEC and voted to stay in in the 1970s, but the EU is a different organization, not just free trade, but loss of sovereignty and ever closer union. I am implacably opposed to loss of the sovereignty of our parliament. We may think our politicians are useless, but at least we elect them and can remove them. I believe we should be like Australia and Canada and most countries, free to rule ourselves, not like Italy, Greece and others begging for handouts from Germany. The EU is now even forcing Germany to cough up financing southern Europe. How long do you think it can go on? There are separatist movements in most European countries that will grow as dissatisfaction mounts. Ireland has done brilliantly out of the EU, but now they will have to make net contributions which will increase and have most of their trade outside the EU how long will it be before Ireland wants its independence again? We have the 6th biggest economy in the world with most of the top 20 economies outside the EU, and over 90% of future world growth outside the EU. That is where this countries future lies, not trapped in a United European state, run by bureaucrats in Brussels and puppet parliament flitting between Brussels and Strasboug. Nope. The EU celebrated its 60th birthday recently. You can join in the celebrations here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/23/eu-60-generation-europe-berlin-barcelona. Just semantics really to argue that the bloc doesn't go back to 1957 and has evolved and enlarged along the way, as it will probably continue to do, minus our presence. So I suspect it'll do better than the Soviet Union but, you never know, six years is a long time... We are free to rule ourselves and yet we've begged for handouts before on numerous occasions - reliance on America post WW2, the IMF debacle in the 70s for two examples. Unless that was the fault of the Europeans too? Perhaps in that short period of EEC membership at that point those pesky foreigners did for us again? We also suffered most severely from the financial crisis despite having all the safeguards of not being in the ERM and not using the Euro. Again, not quite the sunny uplands you'd like to portray... But you're right. We will continue to be able to vote in and vote out our elected representatives. And live with the consequences, as we're doing now and probably will do for decades, as you've said previously.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 24, 2020 19:03:23 GMT
I did point out before the referendum that Gibraltar and Northern Ireland would be issues. As will the Falklands. I don't think that I'm knowledgeable or important enough to give a message to " the people of Gibraltar "....the future of Gibraltar is a matter for the Gibraltarians I’m sure the 2% that voted leave are more than happy..... I doubt it. Seems like we need to try to come to some arrangement with Spain. What's your message to them, now we've left.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2020 19:09:20 GMT
I’m sure the 2% that voted leave are more than happy..... I doubt it. Seems like we need to try to come to some arrangement with Spain. What's your message to them, now we've left. The people have spoken. Good luck.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Sept 24, 2020 19:09:31 GMT
Blockading the ports is contrary to Art 34 to 36 of TFEU which breaks international law. Which raises an interesting point. When, rather than if, the French start their shenanigans on 1st of January will they exempt Irish/EU goods from the blockade or break international law? I'm glad you've raised this point. Sounds like what we need is some sort of arrangement where there is a reduction in the red tape needed to travel friction free between the 2 countries. If we could get rid of tariffs to support our exports aswell that would be a bonus. Dites aux Français
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 24, 2020 19:22:10 GMT
I confidently believe that there will be a free trade deal with the EU at the end of the day when the two sides eventually make an agreement. So "barriers" like the Irish Sea and Kent border will just be temporary arrangements (if indeed they actually happen) till both sides see sense. That may take a failure to agree and a rough period before common sense prevails. As for the HoL, learn your history. Power has never been "handed over" to the HoL, it has been eroded over centuries and gradually reduced. It is sustained by our rotten "establishment" which includes almost as many Labour and Lib Dem peers as Tories. The one's who don't respect the will of the people, and think they know better. I agree. I've said before that some form of cobbled together agreement will be forged, which allows both sides to claim 'victory' of one sort or another. However, I'm slightly less convinced now that the government is threatening to tear up the WA legislation. We'll see. The point about the HoL was obvious - you can't whine about unelected bureaucrats in Europe without focussing attention closer to home, (which does seem to be a bit of a regular oversight of yours ), ie the HoL. It's just the same, if not even worse. 794 current sitting members with an additional 30 odd thanks to Bluffer about to join, none of whom were elected. While the Commissioners are not directly elected (but appointed by national governments) the European parliament (which is elected) votes on their proposed legislation. What's more, in almost every recent UK government, about a fifth of ministers are actually unelected peers, with several often being in Cabinet. So, not only do we have an unelected House which scrutinises our legislation, some of that legislation may have been formulated by unelected peers in the first place. The UK parliamentary process is not quite the contrasting paragon of democratic virtue some would have us believe! I actually agree with most of that and look forward to reform of the HoL, maybe I should join the Brexit party, who else is proposing reform? The HoL actually has limited powers. It cannot delay or change financial bills, and it can only reform or delay other legislation. Defenders of the HoL will say that it only improves bad legislation and introduces none political legislation, but I do not see that as a reason not to make it democratic. You mention legislation being formulated by politicians, which of course applies to members of the HoC as well as Lords. In the EU politicians cannot formulate legislation. All legislation is drafted by the EU Commission, so it is all in one direction, namely greater legislation towards ever closer union, with the European politicians simply rubber stamping or at best delaying, but not changing. Individual national governments are required to implement EU law through individual national legislation, but as I have repeatedly pointed out the UK slavishly implements or seeks derogation whilst a lot of other states just ignore and blatantly disregard EU regulations. Germany is actually one of the worst countries for not following EU regulations. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-merkel-germany-breaks-more-eu-rules-worst-bottom-class-a8198271.html
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Sept 24, 2020 19:43:39 GMT
I'm glad you've raised this point. Sounds like what we need is some sort of arrangement where there is a reduction in the red tape needed to travel friction free between the 2 countries. If we could get rid of tariffs to support our exports aswell that would be a bonus. Dites aux Français Mangetout Rodney, Mangetout.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 24, 2020 20:11:01 GMT
I agree. I've said before that some form of cobbled together agreement will be forged, which allows both sides to claim 'victory' of one sort or another. However, I'm slightly less convinced now that the government is threatening to tear up the WA legislation. We'll see. The point about the HoL was obvious - you can't whine about unelected bureaucrats in Europe without focussing attention closer to home, (which does seem to be a bit of a regular oversight of yours ), ie the HoL. It's just the same, if not even worse. 794 current sitting members with an additional 30 odd thanks to Bluffer about to join, none of whom were elected. While the Commissioners are not directly elected (but appointed by national governments) the European parliament (which is elected) votes on their proposed legislation. What's more, in almost every recent UK government, about a fifth of ministers are actually unelected peers, with several often being in Cabinet. So, not only do we have an unelected House which scrutinises our legislation, some of that legislation may have been formulated by unelected peers in the first place. The UK parliamentary process is not quite the contrasting paragon of democratic virtue some would have us believe! I actually agree with most of that and look forward to reform of the HoL, maybe I should join the Brexit party, who else is proposing reform? The HoL actually has limited powers. It cannot delay or change financial bills, and it can only reform or delay other legislation. Defenders of the HoL will say that it only improves bad legislation and introduces none political legislation, but I do not see that as a reason not to make it democratic. You mention legislation being formulated by politicians, which of course applies to members of the HoC as well as Lords. In the EU politicians cannot formulate legislation. All legislation is drafted by the EU Commission, so it is all in one direction, namely greater legislation towards ever closer union, with the European politicians simply rubber stamping or at best delaying, but not changing. Individual national governments are required to implement EU law through individual national legislation, but as I have repeatedly pointed out the UK slavishly implements or seeks derogation whilst a lot of other states just ignore and blatantly disregard EU regulations. Germany is actually one of the worst countries for not following EU regulations. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-merkel-germany-breaks-more-eu-rules-worst-bottom-class-a8198271.htmlThe HoL does have limited powers, that's true, but it's still our unelected Upper Chamber in our supposedly democratic parliament. I don't think we have all that much to crow about in terms of unelected representatives formulating and shaping our own laws to be honest. Especially those which may even be in Cabinet and responsible for drafting legislation. As an aside the EU parliament has about 700 directly elected MEPs. The HoL has nearly 800 unelected peers. Which 'gravy train' is the biggest abuse of democracy in reality? EU Commissioners are politicians, most are ex-MPs of their own individual parliaments. Nominated by the governments we vote for, then voted on by the European parliament, who we do (did!) vote for. EU parliaments, made up of the MEPs we voted for, can amend and have overturned Executive (Commission) legislation. They are effectively equal decision makers in the process. It's not quite the undemocratic and rubber-stamping exercise that bendy banana reporting by the Bluffer when he was the Telegraph Brussels correspondent (having been sacked for fabricating stories by The Times) would have us believe! The UK does not slavishly follow regulations while other states ignore or disregard them. As I've shown previously, the EU keeps a record of individual member state's infringements. Last time we were included, the UK was somewhere in the middle, despite benefiting from the most opt-outs from various treaties of any EU country. Germany was about fifth according to the EU data, checked in Feb 2020. You don't follow the Directives, you get infringement proceedings taken against you - to pretend we are victims of unfair treatment in this regard is plain wrong, regardless of what your own industrial career might have led you to think.
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Post by numpty40 on Sept 24, 2020 20:19:27 GMT
Most of what we debate is opionion based on our personal knowledge and experience, such as membership of the EU or the debate on negotiations. But again today you are showing ignorance of history. The EU was created in 1997 at Maastricht, when European citizenship was founded and single currency followed. I was very much in favour of the EEC and voted to stay in in the 1970s, but the EU is a different organization, not just free trade, but loss of sovereignty and ever closer union. I am implacably opposed to loss of the sovereignty of our parliament. We may think our politicians are useless, but at least we elect them and can remove them. I believe we should be like Australia and Canada and most countries, free to rule ourselves, not like Italy, Greece and others begging for handouts from Germany. The EU is now even forcing Germany to cough up financing southern Europe. How long do you think it can go on? There are separatist movements in most European countries that will grow as dissatisfaction mounts. Ireland has done brilliantly out of the EU, but now they will have to make net contributions which will increase and have most of their trade outside the EU how long will it be before Ireland wants its independence again? We have the 6th biggest economy in the world with most of the top 20 economies outside the EU, and over 90% of future world growth outside the EU. That is where this countries future lies, not trapped in a United European state, run by bureaucrats in Brussels and puppet parliament flitting between Brussels and Strasboug. Nope. The EU celebrated its 60th birthday recently. You can join in the celebrations here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/23/eu-60-generation-europe-berlin-barcelona. Just semantics really to argue that the bloc doesn't go back to 1957 and has evolved and enlarged along the way, as it will probably continue to do, minus our presence. So I suspect it'll do better than the Soviet Union but, you never know, six years is a long time... We are free to rule ourselves and yet we've begged for handouts before on numerous occasions - reliance on America post WW2, the IMF debacle in the 70s for two examples. Unless that was the fault of the Europeans too? Perhaps in that short period of EEC membership at that point those pesky foreigners did for us again? We also suffered most severely from the financial crisis despite having all the safeguards of not being in the ERM and not using the Euro. Again, not quite the sunny uplands you'd like to portray... But you're right. We will continue to be able to vote in and vote out our elected representatives. And live with the consequences, as we're doing now and probably will do for decades, as you've said previously. Western Europe relied on the US to bail them out, not just the UK. A timely reminder to where our allies really are
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 24, 2020 21:17:24 GMT
Most of what we debate is opionion based on our personal knowledge and experience, such as membership of the EU or the debate on negotiations. But again today you are showing ignorance of history. The EU was created in 1997 at Maastricht, when European citizenship was founded and single currency followed. I was very much in favour of the EEC and voted to stay in in the 1970s, but the EU is a different organization, not just free trade, but loss of sovereignty and ever closer union. I am implacably opposed to loss of the sovereignty of our parliament. We may think our politicians are useless, but at least we elect them and can remove them. I believe we should be like Australia and Canada and most countries, free to rule ourselves, not like Italy, Greece and others begging for handouts from Germany. The EU is now even forcing Germany to cough up financing southern Europe. How long do you think it can go on? There are separatist movements in most European countries that will grow as dissatisfaction mounts. Ireland has done brilliantly out of the EU, but now they will have to make net contributions which will increase and have most of their trade outside the EU how long will it be before Ireland wants its independence again? We have the 6th biggest economy in the world with most of the top 20 economies outside the EU, and over 90% of future world growth outside the EU. That is where this countries future lies, not trapped in a United European state, run by bureaucrats in Brussels and puppet parliament flitting between Brussels and Strasboug. Nope. The EU celebrated its 60th birthday recently. You can join in the celebrations here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/23/eu-60-generation-europe-berlin-barcelona. Just semantics really to argue that the bloc doesn't go back to 1957 and has evolved and enlarged along the way, as it will probably continue to do, minus our presence. So I suspect it'll do better than the Soviet Union but, you never know, six years is a long time... We are free to rule ourselves and yet we've begged for handouts before on numerous occasions - reliance on America post WW2, the IMF debacle in the 70s for two examples. Unless that was the fault of the Europeans too? Perhaps in that short period of EEC membership at that point those pesky foreigners did for us again? We also suffered most severely from the financial crisis despite having all the safeguards of not being in the ERM and not using the Euro. Again, not quite the sunny uplands you'd like to portray... But you're right. We will continue to be able to vote in and vote out our elected representatives. And live with the consequences, as we're doing now and probably will do for decades, as you've said previously. I stand by what I said the EU was created by the Maastricht treaty and fundamentally different from the EEC, which I was very much in support of. When I started to manage at Teesside steelworks in 1975 someone showed me round the rolling mills. Some of those mills were old pre WWII mills from Germany that had been moved from Germany as war reparation. German steelworks had new mills installed under the Marshall Plan. As a former steel industry employee I am well aware of the history of European organisations which began with the Coal and Steel Community. This organisation's articles were merged into the Treaty of Rome eventually and was recently responsible for EU Court ruling to tax renewable more to protect the coal industry. So much for the EU being environmentally friendly. www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/hmrc-pushes-massive-vat-increase-for-new-solar-battery-systemsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 25, 2020 7:42:53 GMT
Well, feel free to tell those folk at the EU that they celebrated their 60th birthday way too prematurely! I suspect they'd just say semantics too Concentrating your eco-ire on one aspect of EU activity in order to knock the organisation's overall environmentally friendly approach is a somewhat unbalanced view, given the scale of their programme in that regard: Environment policies Action Programme Air Chemicals Circular economy Environmental Assessment Env. Implementation Review Green growth Green public procurement Industrial emissions International Issues Land Marine and Coast Nature and Biodiversity Noise Soil Sustainable Development Urban Environment Waste Water Greening other areas Agriculture Cohesion policy Development Employment Energy Enterprise Economics Fisheries Forests European Semester Internal Market Research Solidarity Corps Trade and External Relations Transport
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 25, 2020 9:20:10 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 25, 2020 10:18:53 GMT
I'd agree with most of that MrCoke except to add that alongside America Europe Is one of the biggest consumers in the world.....we've just exported our means of production. Population growth, our "" fantastic "" manufacturing capability / progress 🤔 and globalisation means that humans and the planet are heading for disaster
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 25, 2020 11:57:11 GMT
Every government body legislates! I'd love to see some comparative evidence to show that the EU is the world leader in producing legislation, per capita! Check your facts on Germany being at the head of the infringement table. Not according to this: www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/fact-check-germany-is-eus-fifth-worst-offender-with-76-infringement-proceedings/The EU has definitely brought about increases in environmental protection in its member countries. And it'll be interesting to see where the UK goes now it no longer has to abide by those protections. The EA has already signalled that water quality standards will be relaxed after we finally leave. Basically, we'll stop bothering to look for certain pollutants and then declare our rivers have never been in better shape! Similarly, American trade deals appear to be dependent on accepting their farming standards: Gove has already rowed back on prohibiting chlorinated chicken. None of this smacks of increased or even maintained environmental and food standards to me - which doesn't surprise me one bit. We will set our own laws that's for sure and I think it'll be a slow race to the bottom to do everything as cheaply as possible.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 25, 2020 13:14:38 GMT
Every government body legislates! I'd love to see some comparative evidence to show that the EU is the world leader in producing legislation, per capita! Check your facts on Germany being at the head of the infringement table. Not according to this: www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/fact-check-germany-is-eus-fifth-worst-offender-with-76-infringement-proceedings/The EU has definitely brought about increases in environmental protection in its member countries. And it'll be interesting to see where the UK goes now it no longer has to abide by those protections. The EA has already signalled that water quality standards will be relaxed after we finally leave. Basically, we'll stop bothering to look for certain pollutants and then declare our rivers have never been in better shape! Similarly, American trade deals appear to be dependent on accepting their farming standards: Gove has already rowed back on prohibiting chlorinated chicken. None of this smacks of increased or even maintained environmental and food standards to me - which doesn't surprise me one bit. We will set our own laws that's for sure and I think it'll be a slow race to the bottom to do everything as cheaply as possible. You are correct, there is no comparison of how much legislation countries produce, but it plain to see that all the EU do is churn out legislation in massive amounts. It is on a mission to create a unified European state. You are right Germany has improved from worst to 5th worst since 2016. The EA have said they will change water standards to be more relevant to UK conditions, thereby focussing on what the major needs are to improve our rivers instead of the EU broad brush approach. On the subject of EU directives and environmental protection: Directives A directive binds member states as regards its content, leaving it to them to decide the means of implementing it. For example, the EU chemical directive, REACH, came partly into force on 1 July 2009. Thus, a member state is unable to ban a particular chemical on its own, not even if it believes it causes cancer. Only the non-elected Commission can propose a change in the relevant EU legislation. Not a National Parliament , not the European Parliament , not the voters. Environmentalists wanted to ban 267 chemicals. The Commission would only investigate seven of them. Voters in any member state cannot ban any of the 260 unwanted chemicals by mesns of normal elections. Even if these additives may cause allergies, cancer, diminished fertility, hormonal effects etc., democracy will lose out unless one can convince a majority of governments to agree a new Commission following the next European elections which will propose such a ban and then have an amendment to that effect adopted by a qualified majority in the Council of Ministers. en.euabc.com/word/2152This will mean the now we are out of the EU British governments in future will be able to act faster on the findings of world wide research into toxic substances. Once again a good example of how the UK will be released from the yoke of EU law. Do you really think countries like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, etc. are some how disadvantaged not being under EU law and backward?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 25, 2020 13:27:38 GMT
Thanks. In your eyes, obviously. Thanks again. So not the worst as you'd claimed. They weren't the worst prior to 2016 either. Perhaps you accidentally picked a bad year I've no idea how those countries fare without EU law! I expect that, if they want to trade with the EU, their goods have to meet EU standards. As will ours. Unless, as you've said, our trade with the EU will diminish and that with the rest of the world will increase. In which case, do you think our food, medicine, farming, environmental standards etc etc will increase or decrease, given that it took EU Directives to push us in those directions in the first place and several bodies have already signalled a willingness to resile from those standards post Dec 31. Who knows what standards will be required or not required as part of those trade deals. But given that the EU requires some of the highest standards and we have often whined about having to meet them, it's not a tricky question to guess which way we might be tempted to go if signing new individual trade deals is the be all and end all!
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 25, 2020 13:34:51 GMT
I'd agree with most of that MrCoke except to add that alongside America Europe Is one of the biggest consumers in the world.....we've just exported our means of production. Population growth, our "" fantastic "" manufacturing capability / progress 🤔 and globalisation means that humans and the planet are heading for disaster I agree that the western world has in general exported most of its manufacturing and therefore pollution to China and the Pacific rim nations. I have to admit my present car is a Hyundai and the last one was a Kia. But is not a great as you might think in all cases. For example my beloved steel industry: Production in millions of tonnes Country 2019 1967 Germany 39.7 41.3 Italy 23.2 15.9 France 14.5 19.3 UK 7.2 24.3 Netherlands 6.7 3.4 Spain 13.6 4.5 Sweden 4.7 4.7 Belgium 7.9 9.7 Finland 3.5 0.4
Of course there have been fluctuations in between these date and the former communist countries are missing. My point is many EU countries have continued and indeed in some cases increased their steel production, which is significant because in the UK steel production used to account for half the total energy of the country's energy used in industry. So the UK has decimated its energy use, but other countries have not to anything like the degree. (The only comparison country to the UK is the USA.) To add insult to injury some of the increase in production by other countrie has been funded by the UK. After Franco left power and Spain joined the EU, its infrastructure of roads, rail, airports, etc. has had massive investment from the EU. Spain has benefitted from EU membership (86-2016) by a £1billion which has built their steel industry. The UK has made a net contribution to the EU of £150billion.
I have chaired a European committee and witnessed how many EU countries subsidise their industry and operate cartels to protect them, whilst successive British governments just presided over decline.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 25, 2020 14:16:43 GMT
I'd agree with most of that MrCoke except to add that alongside America Europe Is one of the biggest consumers in the world.....we've just exported our means of production. Population growth, our "" fantastic "" manufacturing capability / progress 🤔 and globalisation means that humans and the planet are heading for disaster I agree that the western world has in general exported most of its manufacturing and therefore pollution to China and the Pacific rim nations. I have to admit my present car is a Hyundai and the last one was a Kia. But is not a great as you might think in all cases. For example my beloved steel industry: Production in millions of tonnes Country 2019 1967 Germany 39.7 41.3 Italy 23.2 15.9 France 14.5 19.3 UK 7.2 24.3 Netherlands 6.7 3.4 Spain 13.6 4.5 Sweden 4.7 4.7 Belgium 7.9 9.7 Finland 3.5 0.4
Of course there have been fluctuations in between these date and the former communist countries and missing. My point is many EU countries have continued and indeed in some cases increased their steel production, which is significant because in the UK steel production used to account for half the total energy of the country's energy used in industry. So the UK has decimated its energy use, but other countries have not to anything like the degree. (The only comparison country to the UK is the USA.) To add insult to injury some of the increase in production by other countrie has been funded by the UK. After Franco left power and Spain joined the EU, its infrastructure of roads, rail, airports, etc. has had massive investment from the EU. Spain has benefitted from EU membership (86-2016) by a £1billion which has bui £150billion.lt their steel industry. The UK has made a net contribution to the EU of £150billion.
I have chaired a European committee and witnessed how many EU countries subsidise their industry and operate cartels to protect them, whilst successive British governments just presided over decline. I agree with your last point about subsidy. The whole tax system is based upon the principle ( the reality might be be different) that we all put in a fair share and decisions are made on how best to use it for the common good. Whether the expenditure is deemed " subsidy" is a different question. You will know better than me that incentives can be in different forms. I know that Toyota were given support in different forms to locate in Derbyshire. Who makes those decisions and in whose interest and how expenditure is monitored are vital questions. The nearer the decision to the effects of the decisions, the local community, with different scales of magnitude, the better. The further away, the more opportunity for corruption or squander. As well as the anti democratic nature of the EU this is also one of its major structural failings. Similarly, on one level, we should not be influenced by what is spent/ subsidised politicised in say Bulgaria or Estonia...too remote. Mr Coke what are your figures for the increase in steel production on China...and do we know how much of it goes overseas? And we need to add plastics( a major polluter) and other raw materials into the equation. And your figures need to take into account the overall increased consumption, largely because of population control. Oh , and I'd like to point out that I've never doubted that the EU have introduced some excellent policies on the environment/ workers ' rights etc....nothing we can't do ourselves....the problem is that the so called Left has lost its way , purpose, connection ,direction, confidence and self belief
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 25, 2020 14:51:27 GMT
I agree that the western world has in general exported most of its manufacturing and therefore pollution to China and the Pacific rim nations. I have to admit my present car is a Hyundai and the last one was a Kia. But is not a great as you might think in all cases. For example my beloved steel industry: Production in millions of tonnes Country 2019 1967 Germany 39.7 41.3 Italy 23.2 15.9 France 14.5 19.3 UK 7.2 24.3 Netherlands 6.7 3.4 Spain 13.6 4.5 Sweden 4.7 4.7 Belgium 7.9 9.7 Finland 3.5 0.4
Of course there have been fluctuations in between these date and the former communist countries and missing. My point is many EU countries have continued and indeed in some cases increased their steel production, which is significant because in the UK steel production used to account for half the total energy of the country's energy used in industry. So the UK has decimated its energy use, but other countries have not to anything like the degree. (The only comparison country to the UK is the USA.) To add insult to injury some of the increase in production by other countrie has been funded by the UK. After Franco left power and Spain joined the EU, its infrastructure of roads, rail, airports, etc. has had massive investment from the EU. Spain has benefitted from EU membership (86-2016) by a £1billion which has bui £150billion.lt their steel industry. The UK has made a net contribution to the EU of £150billion.
I have chaired a European committee and witnessed how many EU countries subsidise their industry and operate cartels to protect them, whilst successive British governments just presided over decline. I agree with your last point about subsidy. The whole tax system is based upon the principle ( the reality might be be different) that we all put in a fair share and decisions are made on how best to use it for the common good. Whether the expenditure is deemed " subsidy" is a different question. You will know better than me that incentives can be in different forms. I know that Toyota were given support in different forms to locate in Derbyshire. Who makes those decisions and in whose interest and how expenditure is monitored are vital questions. The nearer the decision to the effects of the decisions, the local community, with different scales of magnitude, the better. The further away, the more opportunity for corruption or squander. As well as the anti democratic nature of the EU this is also one of its major structural failings. Similarly, on one level, we should not be influenced by what is spent/ subsidised politicised in say Bulgaria or Estonia...too remote. Mr Coke what are your figures for the increase in steel production on China...and do we know how much of it goes overseas? And we need to add plastics( a major polluter) and other raw materials into the equation. And your figures need to take into account the overall increased consumption, largely because of population control. Oh , and I'd like to point out that I've never doubted that the EU have introduced some excellent policies on the environment/ workers ' rights etc....nothing we can't do ourselves....the problem is that the so called Left has lost its way , purpose, connection ,direction, confidence and self belief China exported 62 million tonnes in 2019 to over 200 countries. This is out of a staggering nearly 1 billion tonnes of steel production. The 62 million tonnes is actually a reduction on the c.67 million tonnes in 2018 and will be considerably lower this year of course. Another amazing fact is that whilst most of the western world's steel production capacity is typically 30 - 40 years old and out dated, the vast majority of China's capacity is built in this millennium and very modern and sophisticated. They have demolished virtually all their old plant in the last two decades. When people talk about stopping buying from China it makes me laugh. That horse has long since bolted. We and even Germany are now massively dependant on China. Not only that they have spent the money they have earned on buying up western businesses. The UK's future is not with trading with the EU which is very inward looking and protective. Our future lies with trading with the growing global markets of China, India, Brazil, Mexico, and of course the good ol' USA as well as Japan, Pacific rim countries, and the old Commonwealth countries. That is where the increase in world economic growth lies and where we can trade our high tech. and luxury products and our financial services and tourism. London is the second largest financial centre (Frankfurt 13th) and there is huge potential to grow in the growing world markets. I was fully in favour of being in the common market 40 years ago, it was the place to be at that time, but when it set out to become an undemocratic super-state at Maastricht that changed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2020 15:33:37 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 25, 2020 18:05:38 GMT
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