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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 3, 2020 18:05:10 GMT
Not really a shock that minor parties struggle to get elected in our archaic first past the post system...whichever part of the political spectrum they're from.
Regardless of what I think about Farage, a party that gets 4 million votes and about 12% of the votes cast should have appropriate representation in parliament.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 22:36:27 GMT
Not really a shock that minor parties struggle to get elected in our archaic first past the post system...whichever part of the political spectrum they're from. Regardless of what I think about Farage, a party that gets 4 million votes and about 12% of the votes cast should have appropriate representation in parliament. Ye our system is not good. I suspect FPTP leads to much greater public disenfranchisement vs proportional, and when more people feel powerless and unheard in a society then, regardless of their persuasion, it can surely only harm the wider society.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jul 3, 2020 22:56:10 GMT
Not really a shock that minor parties struggle to get elected in our archaic first past the post system...whichever part of the political spectrum they're from. Regardless of what I think about Farage, a party that gets 4 million votes and about 12% of the votes cast should have appropriate representation in parliament. Ye our system is not good. I suspect FPTP leads to much greater public disenfranchisement vs proportional, and when more people feel powerless and unheard in a society then, regardless of their persuasion, it can surely only harm the wider society. I voted against PR in the referendum. There was a study done about local government run by coalitions versus single party rule in Belgium and it found that coalition horse trading led to more inefficient decision making. Now, I know you’ll compare that to the U.K. and more widely the U.S.A. but many of us voted against these populist clowns! The electorates get the governments they deserve!
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 4, 2020 8:41:04 GMT
There is no ideal system of government.
There are loads of problems with proportional representation. The first obvious one is, which proportional representation system is best? With some systems a constituency does not actually get it's own MP it voted for, which I think is a major defect.
Could any of us imagine a government of the Oatcake MB comprised of elected posters, and selected by proportional representation? How many decisions would we make?
The main problem for me with proportional representation is no one gets the government they voted for, and if you have a general election nothing changes.
At least with our election system the UK is democratic for one day every 4 or 5 years, and we can get rid of the government in power and put in a fresh lot. Prominent politicians can actually be thrown out of their seats. OK we get a government that only the "largest minority"* voted for, but that is better than parties doing deals behind closed doors to seize power.
Preventing minority parties holding the balance of power is a good thing in my opinion.
The solution to me is how you compose the second chamber, the Lords could be used more effectively to keep a government in check, but it needs to be a democratic chamber, not a hand picked or hereditary one.
* that is not technically true, as in the February 1974 GE, Labour won power with the most MPs, but more people actually voted Conservative.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 8:49:42 GMT
There is no ideal system of government. There are loads of problems with proportional representation. The first obvious one is, which proportional representation system is best? With some systems a constituency does not actually get it's own MP it voted for, which I think is a major defect. Could any of us imagine a government of the Oatcake MB comprised of elected posters, and selected by proportional representation? How many decisions would we make? The main problem for me with proportional representation is no one gets the government they voted for, and if you have a general election nothing changes. At least with our election system the UK is democratic for one day every 4 or 5 years, and we can get rid of the government in power and put in a fresh lot. Prominent politicians can actually be thrown out of their seats. OK we get a government that only the "largest minority"* voted for, but that is better than parties doing deals behind closed doors to seize power. Preventing minority parties holding the balance of power is a good thing in my opinion. The solution to me is how you compose the second chamber, the Lords could be used more effectively to keep a government in check, but it needs to be a democratic chamber, not a hand picked or hereditary one. * that is not technically true, as in the February 1974 GE, Labour won power with the most MPs, but more people actually voted Conservative. One of the troubles with PR is it doesn't allow a MP to question his own party as they full know what will happen they will be moved further down the list Loosing there seat for some toady that's placed higher in the list
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 4, 2020 8:56:41 GMT
I can't remember who said it when asked about various forms of governance, but the quote was something like "no system is perfect, but democracy is the least worst option".
I'd expand that out to proportional representation being the least worst option of democratic governance.
Most countries around the world have PR systems of one form or another in place and function perfectly adequately. In Scotland recently, it even led to a majority government in place, something many people thought impossible under PR.
Horse-trading and deal-making no doubt does take place but probably serves to remove some of the more radical policies and introduce those which work better for most people. That's no bad thing. Having policies which work for the majority of people most of the time seems an eminently sensible approach given that "you can't please all of the people all of the time".
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 4, 2020 8:57:16 GMT
There is no ideal system of government. There are loads of problems with proportional representation. The first obvious one is, which proportional representation system is best? With some systems a constituency does not actually get it's own MP it voted for, which I think is a major defect. Could any of us imagine a government of the Oatcake MB comprised of elected posters, and selected by proportional representation? How many decisions would we make? The main problem for me with proportional representation is no one gets the government they voted for, and if you have a general election nothing changes. At least with our election system the UK is democratic for one day every 4 or 5 years, and we can get rid of the government in power and put in a fresh lot. Prominent politicians can actually be thrown out of their seats. OK we get a government that only the "largest minority"* voted for, but that is better than parties doing deals behind closed doors to seize power. Preventing minority parties holding the balance of power is a good thing in my opinion. The solution to me is how you compose the second chamber, the Lords could be used more effectively to keep a government in check, but it needs to be a democratic chamber, not a hand picked or hereditary one. * that is not technically true, as in the February 1974 GE, Labour won power with the most MPs, but more people actually voted Conservative. One of the troubles with PR is it doesn't allow a MP to question his own party as they full know what will happen they will be moved further down the list Loosing there seat for some toady that's placed higher in the list Just the same with FPTP. You cause trouble, you get deselected.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 9:00:25 GMT
One of the troubles with PR is it doesn't allow a MP to question his own party as they full know what will happen they will be moved further down the list Loosing there seat for some toady that's placed higher in the list Just the same with FPTP. You cause trouble, you get deselected. Well Denis skinner never got deselected I'm sure Blair would of ensured we never heard his dulcet tones if it was down to party leaders and a list
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 4, 2020 9:10:13 GMT
Just the same with FPTP. You cause trouble, you get deselected. Well Denis skinner never got deselected I'm sure Blair would of ensured we never heard his dulcet tones if it was down to party leaders and a list It's down to many things: party hierarchy, whips, local party organisations, the nature of the seat they represent etc etc. I don't think FPTP or PR makes any difference in that respect.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 9:19:24 GMT
Well Denis skinner never got deselected I'm sure Blair would of ensured we never heard his dulcet tones if it was down to party leaders and a list It's down to many things: party hierarchy, whips, local party organisations, the nature of the seat they represent etc etc. I don't think FPTP or PR makes any difference in that respect. In PR the party leadership select the candidates and there place on the list Currently many candidates are selected by the local constituency David Davis Mp for Beverly fell out over id cards or something of the sort resigned as a Mp fought his seat as a independent and because he was popular Suceded and retained his seat PR would stop such things from happening And also reduces the local interaction with parliament
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 4, 2020 9:31:51 GMT
I can't remember who said it when asked about various forms of governance, but the quote was something like "no system is perfect, but democracy is the least worst option". I'd expand that out to proportional representation being the least worst option of democratic governance. Most countries around the world have PR systems of one form or another in place and function perfectly adequately. In Scotland recently, it even led to a majority government in place, something many people thought impossible under PR. Horse-trading and deal-making no doubt does take place but probably serves to remove some of the more radical policies and introduce those which work better for most people. That's no bad thing. Having policies which work for the majority of people most of the time seems an eminently sensible approach given that "you can't please all of the people all of the time". So you think most countries perform perfectly adequately with PR. www.transparency.org/en/cpi/#Personally I think politicians are just as corrupt as businessmen if not more so. I worked for a French company and found numerous examples of duplicity than British companies I have worked for. Look at the corruption in EU. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387The deals behind closed doors that proportional representation breeds, breeds corruption in the rest of society, with secret deals between companies, etc.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jul 4, 2020 9:41:28 GMT
Just the same with FPTP. You cause trouble, you get deselected. Well Denis skinner never got deselected I'm sure Blair would of ensured we never heard his dulcet tones if it was down to party leaders and a list Dennis is a great politician, don't believe Blair wanted him gone,
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 4, 2020 9:48:29 GMT
I can't remember who said it when asked about various forms of governance, but the quote was something like "no system is perfect, but democracy is the least worst option". I'd expand that out to proportional representation being the least worst option of democratic governance. Most countries around the world have PR systems of one form or another in place and function perfectly adequately. In Scotland recently, it even led to a majority government in place, something many people thought impossible under PR. Horse-trading and deal-making no doubt does take place but probably serves to remove some of the more radical policies and introduce those which work better for most people. That's no bad thing. Having policies which work for the majority of people most of the time seems an eminently sensible approach given that "you can't please all of the people all of the time". So you think most countries perform perfectly adequately with PR. www.transparency.org/en/cpi/#Personally I think politicians are just as corrupt as businessmen if not more so. I worked for a French company and found numerous examples of duplicity than British companies I have worked for. Look at the corruption in EU. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387The deals behind closed doors that proportional representation breeds, breeds corruption in the rest of society, with secret deals between companies, etc. And that CPI is purely down to PR, is it?! I don't think any one democratic political system is inherently more or less corrupt than any other. It's the people who make a system corrupt. Cash for questions, John Major's sleaze ridden government, the Expenses scandal, Hancock fiddling test results, Cummings ignoring lockdown rules, Robert Jenrick and his sleazy 'deal' with Richard Desmond - all done under FPTP. Corruption, duplicity, rule-breaking - call it what you will. It's the people not the system. Besides, political horse-trading and deal making is not, by definition corrupt, provided it is open and accountable. In our system, laws are enacted through a committee process which usually involves members from all sides of the House. If you ever look into the minutes of these committees there is all sorts of amendments and 'horse-trading' going on which is never actually reported (because it's not very exciting) but is there to look into if you're interested. It's not corruption, it's the process of law-making. Deal making in business goes on regularly too. We have laws to prevent cartels and monopolies developing, but they don't completely eradicate this kind of thing occurring. Again, it's the people. Some are just corrupt, out for themselves, whatever the system and whatever business they're in. But, as an aside, since we're talking about corruption, I'd outlaw political donations. Make it illegal to donate to any party. Remove allegations of buying influence in one fell swoop. Award each party the same amount of taxpayers money to conduct election campaigning and that's it.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 11:45:40 GMT
Well Denis skinner never got deselected I'm sure Blair would of ensured we never heard his dulcet tones if it was down to party leaders and a list Dennis is a great politician, don't believe Blair wanted him gone, So you think Blair enjoyed skinner exposing Blair as a faux tory
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jul 4, 2020 13:25:12 GMT
Dennis is a great politician, don't believe Blair wanted him gone, So you think Blair enjoyed skinner exposing Blair as a faux tory No, but he was wise enough not to cross swords with him too much
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 13:39:28 GMT
So you think Blair enjoyed skinner exposing Blair as a faux tory No, but he was wise enough not to cross swords with him too much No but the whole point is if it was down to PR people like skinner would have been placed 350ish on the list And suddenly unless there's a landslide there suddenly out of a job
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jul 4, 2020 13:41:54 GMT
No, but he was wise enough not to cross swords with him too much No but the whole point is if it was down to PR people like skinner would have been placed 350ish on the list And suddenly unless there's a landslide there suddenly out of a job Skinner was always elected with a majority so would have his seat,?
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 13:58:28 GMT
No but the whole point is if it was down to PR people like skinner would have been placed 350ish on the list And suddenly unless there's a landslide there suddenly out of a job Skinner was always elected with a majority so would have his seat,? Depends on which form of PR single trans ferable vote in each seat providing he's a chosen candidate yes But if the chosen system is done on regional level than it would be seats allocated by share of the vote for each party you have to be high up in the list which is picked by the leadership to guarantee a seat The current system isn't perfect but at least if someone wanks thousands of taxpayers money on a new duck House the electorate can remove them
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jul 4, 2020 17:39:47 GMT
I was conned in the Referendum! I was told the exceptional British had never lost a war! Today I found out the Yanks beat us in 1776! I demand a new vote!😜
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jul 4, 2020 18:28:47 GMT
Skinner was always elected with a majority so would have his seat,? Depends on which form of PR single trans ferable vote in each seat providing he's a chosen candidate yes But if the chosen system is done on regional level than it would be seats allocated by share of the vote for each party you have to be high up in the list which is picked by the leadership to guarantee a seat The current system isn't perfect but at least if someone wanks thousands of taxpayers money on a new duck House the electorate can remove them Pick your best players,,
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 4, 2020 19:17:34 GMT
Skinner was always elected with a majority so would have his seat,? Depends on which form of PR single trans ferable vote in each seat providing he's a chosen candidate yes But if the chosen system is done on regional level than it would be seats allocated by share of the vote for each party you have to be high up in the list which is picked by the leadership to guarantee a seat The current system isn't perfect but at least if someone wanks thousands of taxpayers money on a new duck House the electorate can remove them I think it was never lost a war we wanted to win
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jul 4, 2020 19:24:12 GMT
Depends on which form of PR single trans ferable vote in each seat providing he's a chosen candidate yes But if the chosen system is done on regional level than it would be seats allocated by share of the vote for each party you have to be high up in the list which is picked by the leadership to guarantee a seat The current system isn't perfect but at least if someone wanks thousands of taxpayers money on a new duck House the electorate can remove them I think it was never lost a war we wanted to win ??
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 5, 2020 14:01:31 GMT
Unseen and untested Brexit IT system risks customs chaos The Goods Vehicle Movement Service expects to deal with 400m customs declarations a year rather than the planned for 60m
By Lizzy Burden 4 July 2020 • 9:30pm A new Brexit IT system faces nearly seven times more customs declarations than it was designed to cope with, it has emerged, as fears mount over preparedness for new border procedures.
A version of the Goods Vehicle Movement Service (GVMS) was created before the EU referendum and HMRC has been moving users to it since August 2018.
However, sources said the system was intended to cope with only 60 million customs declarations per year. To adhere to the Northern Ireland Protocol after the end of the transition period it will need to support 400 million declarations annually.
HMRC is not planning to test the system until November, weeks before Britain’s final exit from the EU, it is understood. The French equivalent is already built and tested.
Duncan Buchanan, policy director at the Road Haulage Association, said the schedule was “hugely concerning”.
He added: “It’s not businesses’ fault for not being prepared when we don’t have the systems and information to prepare with.”
An 11-page slide presentation from HMRC, seen by The Sunday Telegraph, outlining the electronic paperwork for goods travelling from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, said “only those goods which are at risk of entering the EU will face duties”.
However, Stephen Kelly, chief executive of the group Manufacturing Northern Ireland, added that a lack of data about trade flows across the Irish Sea meant the volume of goods “at risk” of being resold into the single market was being overestimated.
With less than six months until Britain begins its new trading relationship with the EU, HMRC launched a survey for businesses last month to gather information on such trade.
Mr Kelly said: “It’s all coming very late. As a result, there’s the risk we end up designing a system that’s overly bureaucratic, onerous on businesses who don’t have the capacity or capital to deal with it, and as a result the whole thing will fall down.”
HMRC’s presentation set out further detail about the GVMS, which will allow HMRC to link together declaration references so that the person moving the goods, such as a haulier, only has to present one single reference – a “goods movement reference” (GMR).
But Aodhán Connolly, director of the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium, warned that producing the GMR would put an administrative burden on businesses already strained by Covid-19.
He said: “It’s great the haulier has one piece of paperwork, but businesses will still need lots of man hours to put in the four other things – the safety, security, transit and export declarations – before we get the GMR number.”
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 5, 2020 14:51:32 GMT
I'd forgotten about this one when we were talking about how Leavers weren't really racists... Your confusing xenophobia with racism.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 5, 2020 16:57:43 GMT
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 5, 2020 18:02:05 GMT
It was ruled not to be racist by the advertising authority following a complaint but I understand the argument but xenophobia is the more accurate description as we and Germany are the same "race" although I accept some may see it differently.
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Post by foster on Jul 5, 2020 22:20:32 GMT
It was ruled not to be racist by the advertising authority following a complaint but I understand the argument but xenophobia is the more accurate description as we and Germany are the same "race" although I accept some may see it differently. Disgusting in any case...Angie's all right. So too are Germans in general.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 6, 2020 6:35:51 GMT
It was ruled not to be racist by the advertising authority following a complaint but I understand the argument but xenophobia is the more accurate description as we and Germany are the same "race" although I accept some may see it differently. Disgusting in any case...Angie's all right. So too are Germans in general. It is, they are in fact they are more than alright it's my second home.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jul 6, 2020 6:54:02 GMT
It was ruled not to be racist by the advertising authority following a complaint but I understand the argument but xenophobia is the more accurate description as we and Germany are the same "race" although I accept some may see it differently. Disgusting in any case...Angie's all right. So too are Germans in general.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 6, 2020 10:24:00 GMT
Disgusting in any case...Angie's all right. So too are Germans in general. He did that to take the piss out of Gazza!
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