|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 16:57:25 GMT
Youre back again on this accepting the result and getting yourself wound up about it. Who right now is trying to overturn the decision? It is done and it is over. However every lie that is slowly being exposed will continue to pointed out to you and you can either choose to acknowledge it safe in the knowledge we are out, or continue to ignore it whilst getting agitated at people who do not agree with your position. You may be racist BJR you may not be. Im unsure as I enjoy our debates and think you're most likely a decent bloke who I could have a good pint with, but the man who I feel influences you most politically is mosy definitely a xenophobic and facist sympathiser. But I suppose we only see what we want to see at the end of that day. The person who most influenced me to vote leave was Tony Benn Just interested in what you have to say about him I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 17:07:28 GMT
The person who most influenced me to vote leave was Tony Benn Just interested in what you have to say about him I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. Benn is thrown at you because many people especially the left, want to frame the Brexit issue as a left / right issue....so just a bit of contrast and balance, making a change from Remainers throwing Farage into the equation. I suppose to bring it more up to date Corbyn, Hoey, Stuart, Galloway, Fox or Skinner could be cited.,
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 28, 2020 17:08:37 GMT
And there you have it
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 28, 2020 17:12:31 GMT
The person who most influenced me to vote leave was Tony Benn Just interested in what you have to say about him I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. I have always wanted to leave the EU since before I was old enough to vote My eyes have always been wide open I believe we should leave on no deal terms even if in the short term I lose out As I'm convinced in the future without a deal which would bind the UK My grandchildren will reap the benefits from my short term pain Why do people keep chucking Labour MPs and members at you is probably because you try to pigeon hole leave voters into a narrow group of slightly xenophobic middle englanders Where the leave vote was In fact a much more diverse grouping Than the predominantly middle class well educated remain voters
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 28, 2020 17:13:40 GMT
Good no deal true freedom wto rules
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 28, 2020 17:52:39 GMT
Good no deal true freedom wto rules Tragic
|
|
|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 17:58:53 GMT
I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. Benn is thrown at you because many people especially the left, want to frame the Brexit issue as a left / right issue....so just a bit of contrast and balance, making a change from Remainers throwing Farage into the equation. I suppose to bring it more up to date Corbyn, Hoey, Stuart, Galloway, Fox or Skinner could be cited., Always Labour though aren't they? Why is it never Cameron, May etc.. Or more appropriately a Lib Dem, or ex in the terms of Swinson. It is always Labour because the assumption is that I am part of 'The Left' and it is simply not the case.
|
|
|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 18:02:30 GMT
I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. I have always wanted to leave the EU since before I was old enough to vote My eyes have always been wide open I believe we should leave on no deal terms even if in the short term I lose out As I'm convinced in the future without a deal which would bind the UK My grandchildren will reap the benefits from my short term pain Why do people keep chucking Labour MPs and members at you is probably because you try to pigeon hole leave voters into a narrow group of slightly xenophobic middle englanders Where the leave vote was In fact a much more diverse grouping Than the predominantly middle class well educated remain voters No pigeon-holing from me Waga. There were the conned, the xenaphobes and the hedge fund brigade. They came from the very poorest to the very richest.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 18:05:37 GMT
Benn is thrown at you because many people especially the left, want to frame the Brexit issue as a left / right issue....so just a bit of contrast and balance, making a change from Remainers throwing Farage into the equation. I suppose to bring it more up to date Corbyn, Hoey, Stuart, Galloway, Fox or Skinner could be cited., Always Labour though aren't they? Why is it never Cameron, May etc.. Or more appropriately a Lib Dem, or ex in the terms of Swinson. It is always Labour because the assumption is that I am part of 'The Left' and it is simply not the case. I'm not assuming anything. Can't recall engaging with you in the past and I've quoted many left wingers, like Waga probably nearer to my philosophy but unfortunately Labour are so out of touch that they aren't in the game. So Labour/ lefties have been quoted not because of YOUR position but to give a bit of contrast with the right wing view....and it complicates the racist labelling a bit. I suppose Cameron, May and Swinson are not quoted......because they are Remainers?
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 28, 2020 18:19:50 GMT
I have always wanted to leave the EU since before I was old enough to vote My eyes have always been wide open I believe we should leave on no deal terms even if in the short term I lose out As I'm convinced in the future without a deal which would bind the UK My grandchildren will reap the benefits from my short term pain Why do people keep chucking Labour MPs and members at you is probably because you try to pigeon hole leave voters into a narrow group of slightly xenophobic middle englanders Where the leave vote was In fact a much more diverse grouping Than the predominantly middle class well educated remain voters No pigeon-holing from me Waga. There were the conned, the xenaphobes and the hedge fund brigade. They came from the very poorest to the very richest. Well I don't fit in to any of them I'm not xenophobic I've not got anything to do with hedge funds And if we leave with no deal or a Canada plus deal then I haven't been conned
|
|
|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 18:38:31 GMT
No pigeon-holing from me Waga. There were the conned, the xenaphobes and the hedge fund brigade. They came from the very poorest to the very richest. Well I don't fit in to any of them I'm not xenophobic I've not got anything to do with hedge funds And if we leave with no deal or a Canada plus deal then I haven't been conned Such a good post you liked it yourself. No deal or Canada plus would lead my to believe 'conned' you might not see it yet but all will be revealed shortly Was Tony Benn a fan of Canada Plus?
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 28, 2020 18:51:34 GMT
Well I don't fit in to any of them I'm not xenophobic I've not got anything to do with hedge funds As for Tony Benn sadly Benn died two and half years before the Canada deal was signed So unless I find a And if we leave with no deal or a Canada plus deal then I haven't been conned Such a good post you liked it yourself. No deal or Canada plus would lead my to believe 'conned' you might not see it yet but all will be revealed shortly Was Tony Benn a fan of Canada Plus? One meant to like the previous post But thank you having read it again it was rather good Sadly Tony Benn died two and a half years before Canada signed the original deal So I will have find a bloody good seance to find his oppion on it
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Jun 28, 2020 18:52:36 GMT
Are the Remoaners still banging the thicko racist drum? Jesus fucking Christ!
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 28, 2020 22:53:29 GMT
The person who most influenced me to vote leave was Tony Benn Just interested in what you have to say about him I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. I think that sentence high-lights for me the very reason I am in favour of us leaving the EU. 40 years ago I was very much in favour of being part of the EEC or "common market" as we called it then. I'll refer you to my posts in the past for all the reasons and my family disputes with my father. I was young and foolish enough to think a bit of subjugation was worth a huge boost in trade. But what has happened to the EEC with subsequent treaties, changes to EU, my industrial experiences over those 40 years, working for the French and Dutch and closely with Germans, who simply cheated on the rules we Brits slavishly followed (again I refer you to my previous posts), have all contrived for my to change my views by 180 degrees, and become implacably opposed to the submergence of our country to become ruled by a self perpetuating bureaucracy in Brussels. A system that is riddled with corruption, devoid of independent auditing, where Britain was the only country that suffered a huge trade deficit with the EU and paid for the privilege with a huge net financial contribution. A system that is clearly set on a path to totally subjugate individual countries interests except for Germany and France with the sycophantic support of The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg. To put it in your terms, my eyes have been opened during those 40 years! Norway was wise never to enter the EEC/EU. Austria, Italy, Greece and eastern European states are states becoming increasingly dissatisfied with their lot, and central directives. Spain and Ireland have benefited massively from EU membership (largely at the UK's expense), but how long will they be happy when they have to start to be net financial contributors. Italy and Greece are almost bankrupt prior to any pandemic effect. They will be subsidised by EU (German) money for a long time into the future. There are 19 member states that have been perpetual net receivers of EU (German) money, but that is unsustainable with the UK leaving. France has had annual fiscal deficits for the last 45 consecutive years. Spain has half the GDP and almost 4 times the unemployment of the UK, and its society is steadily being destroyed by massive unemployment of their young. Poland is struggling. Germany, the EU's workshop and banker, is becoming massively dependant on China for imports, and their exports are massively dependant on the USA and UK. The UK has left the EU just in time. pandemic or no pandemic.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 29, 2020 8:26:40 GMT
The person who most influenced me to vote leave was Tony Benn Just interested in what you have to say about him I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. PART 2You are correct in one aspect, we should look forwards to the future, not backwards to what has happened in the past. So, 1. 95% of world economic growth is in countries outside of the EU. 2. Most of the UK's exports go to countries outside of the EU. 3. The rest of the world can supply our basic needs such as food and raw materials cheaper than the EU. We are far too dependant on the EU for subsidised food, manufactured goods like cars, white goods, furniture, etc. which will always be expensive produced in Euros. We should spread our dependence. 4. The UK is no longer a manufacturing country but a service economy, just what USA, China, and the developing countries will require in the future. The growth of the middle class in China (by middle class I mean those with a disposable income) is greater each year than the total number of middle class in Europe. 5. We have massive advantages with our own currency, one of the major centres of the finance industry (along with Switzerland which is also not in the EU), our English language, our heritage, and above all the inventiveness, ingenuity, and industriousness of our British nations. Historically we British have always been lucky as a people. We got our civil wars over early, we were one of the first to democratise, first to benefit from industrialisation, we had an empire where most gold was extracted, we benefited from the slave trade but realised it was wrong are stopped it, we had "an island of coal in a sea of oil", we are on path to be one of the first major world economies not to be dependant on coal, and have benefited massively down the centuries from immigration, which has enriched us. Finally we have been lucky to get out of the stranglehold of the German bureaucracy before it suffocates us. (Some of the nicest people I know are German, I'm not xenophobic.) apolitical.co/en/solution_article/germanys-the-home-of-bureaucracy-a-new-community-wants-change But will it happen?
|
|
|
Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 29, 2020 8:49:25 GMT
I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. I think that sentence high-lights for me the very reason I am in favour of us leaving the EU. 40 years ago I was very much in favour of being part of the EEC or "common market" as we called it then. I'll refer you to my posts in the past for all the reasons and my family disputes with my father. I was young and foolish enough to think a bit of subjugation was worth a huge boost in trade. But what has happened to the EEC with subsequent treaties, changes to EU, my industrial experiences over those 40 years, working for the French and Dutch and closely with Germans, who simply cheated on the rules we Brits slavishly followed (again I refer you to my previous posts), have all contrived for my to change my views by 180 degrees, and become implacably opposed to the submergence of our country to become ruled by a self perpetuating bureaucracy in Brussels. A system that is riddled with corruption, devoid of independent auditing, where Britain was the only country that suffered a huge trade deficit with the EU and paid for the privilege with a huge net financial contribution. A system that is clearly set on a path to totally subjugate individual countries interests except for Germany and France with the sycophantic support of The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg. To put it in your terms, my eyes have been opened during those 40 years! Norway was wise never to enter the EEC/EU. Austria, Italy, Greece and eastern European states are states becoming increasingly dissatisfied with their lot, and central directives. Spain and Ireland have benefited massively from EU membership (largely at the UK's expense), but how long will they be happy when they have to start to be net financial contributors. Italy and Greece are almost bankrupt prior to any pandemic effect. They will be subsidised by EU (German) money for a long time into the future. There are 19 member states that have been perpetual net receivers of EU (German) money, but that is unsustainable with the UK leaving. France has had annual fiscal deficits for the last 45 consecutive years. Spain has half the GDP and almost 4 times the unemployment of the UK, and its society is steadily being destroyed by massive unemployment of their young. Poland is struggling. Germany, the EU's workshop and banker, is becoming massively dependant on China for imports, and their exports are massively dependant on the USA and UK. The UK has left the EU just in time. pandemic or no pandemic. Your opinion, not fact,
|
|
|
Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 29, 2020 8:55:55 GMT
Good no deal true freedom wto rules Do you think that there should be a enquiry into this alleged corruption. Do you think that the IMF will have to come in again if this happens,?
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 29, 2020 9:00:46 GMT
Good no deal true freedom wto rules Do you think that there should be a enquiry into this alleged corruption. Do you think that the IMF will have to come in again if this happens,? No and no I voted to leave the EU I didn't vote for this country to be half in and half out
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 29, 2020 9:59:19 GMT
Do you think that there should be a enquiry into this alleged corruption. Do you think that the IMF will have to come in again if this happens,? No and no I voted to leave the EU I didn't vote for this country to be half in and half out We're out. If we're going to move forward as a country, we're going to need Leave voters to accept that they have won.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 29, 2020 10:01:47 GMT
I don't follow where your 30% of racists voted to remain comes from? The quote above says 18%. Interesting that your research ties in with most of the stuff I've been finding about how prejudice and racism is more prevalent in the Leave vote. So, I need to clarify really when I said all racists voted Leave. I should have said more racists chose to vote Leave. And that's only the ones who identified themselves as such! But let's agree that almost twice as many of those who self-identified as racists voted Leave compared to those who chose Remain. Digressing slightly, but interesting that from your research one whole third of Conservative voters describe themselves as racially prejudiced! 33%, Jesus! Not that surprised, obviously, but it's quite a figure and quite an honest admission too! I wonder how many didn't admit to it on top of that figure?
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 29, 2020 10:07:28 GMT
If Remain had won , Nige etc would have been completely sidelined, everything would have moved on , the result would have been accepted. Minor debates such as this on the Oatcake and analysis of voting patterns would not have taken place. The only analysisthat counted for anythingwas the overall result....the rest is to make Remainers feel better. It simply reflects the inability of some Remainers or to accept the result , nothing more. On the issue of labelling some people racist...I know that you are a different Red,but would you consider yourself Racist? While we are engaging, do you think that Keir Hardie was racist? I believe the opposite, the reaction and resistance would have been even stronger. No opinion on the ERG which is now 27 years old? Completely sidelined you say. He would have been even more bitter and divisive than he is now, and I know you're a big fan, so much so that before Christmas you couldn't think of anyone better to lead the country. I hope witch recent events that has led to a small shift in your opinion on the man but I do doubt it. Am I racist? No. I'm very much a Liberal snowflake believing in equality, facts and the glorious centre. In terms of Keir Hardy (and please remember that I am not a Labour Party member and I would equally inclined to vote for either of the 2 main parties depending on leader and manifesto) the recent quotes that have been published would lead me to believe that he was xenophobic, but if there is evidence to be shared about him either selling/branding/degrading or insulting black people I would be happy to change my mind. Do you believe that National Nige is a racist? When directly asked if the result had been 52/48 the other way, he said it would have been very much unfinished business!
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 29, 2020 10:08:48 GMT
No and no I voted to leave the EU I didn't vote for this country to be half in and half out We're out. If we're going to move forward as a country, we're going to need Leave voters to accept that they have won. I haven't won until the European courts have no jurisdiction in this country And if we sign a deal I shall be looking very closely at the details Any capitulation in regards of the European courts And the fight for freedom carries on
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 29, 2020 10:16:57 GMT
We're out. If we're going to move forward as a country, we're going to need Leave voters to accept that they have won. I haven't won until the European courts have no jurisdiction in this country And if we sign a deal I shall be looking very closely at the details Any capitulation in regards of the European courts And the fight for freedom carries on A very similar attitude to the People's Vote campaign. We really need to move on.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 29, 2020 11:48:06 GMT
I think you break the the ERG then as 'longest' time leader. In terms of Tony Benn and again as with BJR I'm always interested at why its Labour politicians that are thrown at me as a way of answering questions so once again I am a typical swing voter who belongs firmly in the centre. If I was alive to be voting on the issue all those years ago I may have had a slightly different viewpoint. That would have depended on job, education and prospect. How you can let membership of the EU from 40 years ago form what we are about to work away from present day shows a very closed eye approach. But fair play to sticking to your guns. PART 2You are correct in one aspect, we should look forwards to the future, not backwards to what has happened in the past. So, 1. 95% of world economic growth is in countries outside of the EU. 2. Most of the UK's exports go to countries outside of the EU. 3. The rest of the world can supply our basic needs such as food and raw materials cheaper than the EU. We are far too dependant on the EU for subsidised food, manufactured goods like cars, white goods, furniture, etc. which will always be expensive produced in Euros. We should spread our dependence. 4. The UK is no longer a manufacturing country but a service economy, just what USA, China, and the developing countries will require in the future. The growth of the middle class in China (by middle class I mean those with a disposable income) is greater each year than the total number of middle class in Europe. 5. We have massive advantages with our own currency, one of the major centres of the finance industry (along with Switzerland which is also not in the EU), our English language, our heritage, and above all the inventiveness, ingenuity, and industriousness of our British nations. Historically we British have always been lucky as a people. We got our civil wars over early, we were one of the first to democratise, first to benefit from industrialisation, we had an empire where most gold was extracted, we benefited from the slave trade but realised it was wrong are stopped it, we had "an island of coal in a sea of oil", we are on path to be one of the first major world economies not to be dependant on coal, and have benefited massively down the centuries from immigration, which has enriched us. Finally we have been lucky to get out of the stranglehold of the German bureaucracy before it suffocates us. (Some of the nicest people I know are German, I'm not xenophobic.) apolitical.co/en/solution_article/germanys-the-home-of-bureaucracy-a-new-community-wants-change But will it happen? We'll see. Certainly, most of that constitutes the arguments put forward for leaving (with the exception of your take on immigration, which is the exact opposite!), so now more than ever it is critical to continue to hold those responsible for taking us out of the EU to account, to make sure what they promised is actually delivered and to see what impact those promises, if delivered, actually have.
|
|
|
Post by Timmypotter on Jun 29, 2020 11:49:44 GMT
I don't follow where your 30% of racists voted to remain come from? The quote above says 18%. Interesting that your research ties in with most of the stuff I've been finding about how prejudice and racism is more prevalent in the Leave vote. So, I need to clarify really when I said all racists voted Leave. I should have said more racists chose to vote Leave. And that's only the ones who identified themselves as such! But let's agree that almost twice as many of those who self-identified as racists voted Leave compared to those who chose Remain. Digressing slightly, but interesting that from your research one whole third of Conservative voters describe themselves as racially prejudiced! 33%, Jesus! Not that surprised, obviously, but it's quite a figure and quite an honest admission too! I wonder how many didn't admit to it on top of that figure? Maths: 17,410,742 * 0.34 = 5,919,652 (racially prejudiced people who voted leave) 16,141,241 * 0.18 = 2,905,423 (racially prejudiced people who voted remain) 5,919,652 + 2,905,423 = 8,825,075 (total number of racially prejudiced voters) 2,905,423 / 8,825,075 = 0.329 ≈ 33% (% of total prejudiced voters who voted remain). Apologies. My estimated figure was out by 3%. My guess is that this figure should probably be increased slightly to account for the unconscious racism inherent in preferring a system in which immigration from a predominantly white area (Europe) is favoured to immigration from other parts of the world.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 29, 2020 14:56:46 GMT
PART 2You are correct in one aspect, we should look forwards to the future, not backwards to what has happened in the past. So, 1. 95% of world economic growth is in countries outside of the EU. 2. Most of the UK's exports go to countries outside of the EU. 3. The rest of the world can supply our basic needs such as food and raw materials cheaper than the EU. We are far too dependant on the EU for subsidised food, manufactured goods like cars, white goods, furniture, etc. which will always be expensive produced in Euros. We should spread our dependence. 4. The UK is no longer a manufacturing country but a service economy, just what USA, China, and the developing countries will require in the future. The growth of the middle class in China (by middle class I mean those with a disposable income) is greater each year than the total number of middle class in Europe. 5. We have massive advantages with our own currency, one of the major centres of the finance industry (along with Switzerland which is also not in the EU), our English language, our heritage, and above all the inventiveness, ingenuity, and industriousness of our British nations. Historically we British have always been lucky as a people. We got our civil wars over early, we were one of the first to democratise, first to benefit from industrialisation, we had an empire where most gold was extracted, we benefited from the slave trade but realised it was wrong are stopped it, we had "an island of coal in a sea of oil", we are on path to be one of the first major world economies not to be dependant on coal, and have benefited massively down the centuries from immigration, which has enriched us. Finally we have been lucky to get out of the stranglehold of the German bureaucracy before it suffocates us. (Some of the nicest people I know are German, I'm not xenophobic.) apolitical.co/en/solution_article/germanys-the-home-of-bureaucracy-a-new-community-wants-change But will it happen? We'll see. Certainly, most of that constitutes the arguments put forward for leaving (with the exception of your take on immigration, which is the exact opposite!), so now more than ever it is critical to continue to hold those responsible for taking us out of the EU to account, to make sure what they promised is actually delivered and to see what impact those promises, if delivered, actually have. This country has a long tradition for immigration. We need immigrants for the social anď health services, farming, etc. and our commerce. They have contributed to creating, pre-pandemic, the highest employment in our history and the lowest unemployment for 40 years. What I am against is uncontrolled immigration, immigrants working in the black economy, NHS tourists, burglary blitzers, etc I am against illegal immigration and those taking huge money to put lives at risk crossing the Channel, assisted by French authorities. As for the poor wretches who land on the beaches, my heart actually goes out to them and I admire their bravery; they are clearly desperate for a better life that they would not get in the EU. We are virtually all immigrants if you go back in our ancestry far enough, and if our schools were doing their job they would educate each generation in all the peoples who have come to this country in over 2,000 years from all parts of the world. (And of course those like the Pilgrim Fathers forced to leave.) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_immigration_to_Great_Britain
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 29, 2020 15:59:55 GMT
Seems reasonable
|
|
|
Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 29, 2020 16:01:30 GMT
I believe the opposite, the reaction and resistance would have been even stronger. No opinion on the ERG which is now 27 years old? Completely sidelined you say. He would have been even more bitter and divisive than he is now, and I know you're a big fan, so much so that before Christmas you couldn't think of anyone better to lead the country. I hope witch recent events that has led to a small shift in your opinion on the man but I do doubt it. Am I racist? No. I'm very much a Liberal snowflake believing in equality, facts and the glorious centre. In terms of Keir Hardy (and please remember that I am not a Labour Party member and I would equally inclined to vote for either of the 2 main parties depending on leader and manifesto) the recent quotes that have been published would lead me to believe that he was xenophobic, but if there is evidence to be shared about him either selling/branding/degrading or insulting black people I would be happy to change my mind. Do you believe that National Nige is a racist? When directly asked if the result had been 52/48 the other way, he said it would have been very much unfinished business! Quelled surprise eh!
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 29, 2020 16:11:18 GMT
We'll see. Certainly, most of that constitutes the arguments put forward for leaving (with the exception of your take on immigration, which is the exact opposite!), so now more than ever it is critical to continue to hold those responsible for taking us out of the EU to account, to make sure what they promised is actually delivered and to see what impact those promises, if delivered, actually have. This country has a long tradition for immigration. We need immigrants for the social anď health services, farming, etc. and our commerce. They have contributed to creating, pre-pandemic, the highest employment in our history and the lowest unemployment for 40 years. What I am against is uncontrolled immigration, immigrants working in the black economy, NHS tourists, burglary blitzers, etc I am against illegal immigration and those taking huge money to put lives at risk crossing the Channel, assisted by French authorities. As for the poor wretches who land on the beaches, my heart actually goes out to them and I admire their bravery; they are clearly desperate for a better life that they would not get in the EU. We are virtually all immigrants if you go back in our ancestry far enough, and if our schools were doing their job they would educate each generation in all the peoples who have come to this country in over 2,000 years from all parts of the world. (And of course those like the Pilgrim Fathers forced to leave.) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_immigration_to_Great_BritainAgreed. Unfortunately, that wasn't the message or language that was routinely put out by Farage's Leave campaign (if not so much the official Leave one). Most of the time it was language like "swarms of migrants"; "The Turks are joining the EU"; "29 million Romanians and Bulgarians will come over" etc etc. So net migration has barely changed since 2010: 256,000 then, 258,000 in 2018. We've always had the ability to control immigration more tightly than we do now, even for EU nationals. So you wonder why we haven't. My suspicion is that once the realisation hits that no-one is picking the fruit/veg, filling hospitality roles etc, a new set of migrants will quietly be allowed to take their places, so all those people who voted Leave because there were "too many migrants" (and there were a lot: it wasn't just being able to control immigration, which is a much nicer soundbite, it was often that there were too many here already) may find that particular promise isn't fulfilled.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 29, 2020 16:15:53 GMT
I don't follow where your 30% of racists voted to remain come from? The quote above says 18%. Interesting that your research ties in with most of the stuff I've been finding about how prejudice and racism is more prevalent in the Leave vote. So, I need to clarify really when I said all racists voted Leave. I should have said more racists chose to vote Leave. And that's only the ones who identified themselves as such! But let's agree that almost twice as many of those who self-identified as racists voted Leave compared to those who chose Remain. Digressing slightly, but interesting that from your research one whole third of Conservative voters describe themselves as racially prejudiced! 33%, Jesus! Not that surprised, obviously, but it's quite a figure and quite an honest admission too! I wonder how many didn't admit to it on top of that figure? Maths: 17,410,742 * 0.34 = 5,919,652 (racially prejudiced people who voted leave) 16,141,241 * 0.18 = 2,905,423 (racially prejudiced people who voted remain) 5,919,652 + 2,905,423 = 8,825,075 (total number of racially prejudiced voters) 2,905,423 / 8,825,075 = 0.329 ≈ 33% (% of total prejudiced voters who voted remain). Apologies. My estimated figure was out by 3%. My guess is that this figure should probably be increased slightly to account for the unconscious racism inherent in preferring a system in which immigration from a predominantly white area (Europe) is favoured to immigration from other parts of the world. Fair enough. So two thirds of racially prejudiced people voted Leave, one third voted Remain. I'll happily change my opinion to most racists voted Leave.
|
|