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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2020 9:26:29 GMT
The article is highly “academic” which doesn’t mean it has any great value but written in pseudo science language to attempt to give it some gravitas. Two things... First a quote... I love this type of writing - it acknowledges the complexity of the Brexit vote then just ignores its own acknowledgement. Second, later in the article it gives a sample size of 200 it used for its survey on UK attitudes which it used to draw conclusions. 200 is woefully inadequate, it should be several thousand. The purpose of this survey was to generate data for an article, not to provide meaningful data. Conclusion, this article is of no intellectual merit. It’s just an opinion piece dressed up as academic study. If you don't like that one, feel free to google it and read any of the myriad other peer-reviewed papers on the subject. Surprising just how many different studies by experts in their fields have come up with similar conclusions. You could just dismiss them all as biased or inadequately researched if that makes it easier? Although they have all been peer-reviewed prior to publication which makes that a bit awkward! And yes, they are the opinions of the authors based on their research findings. The fact that different, independent research streams resulted in similar findings and similar conclusions from the authors is an odd coincidence. I'll wait for a similar paper showing how racism and prejudice influenced the Remain vote... As a leave voter yourself, do you consider yourself to be a racist?...or just assiciated with them?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 27, 2020 9:29:38 GMT
Paul Nuki, Daily Telegraph
As Brexit nears science will push us closer to the EU.
When up against it, science has a way of bringing things to a head. I’m thinking of junk food, obesity and Covid-19. The twin epidemics of Covid and social inequalities. The tensions between have-it-all boomers and the young.
There is another conflagration coming down the tracks. The pandemic and a thingymajig called “Brexit” may be about to collide. The pandemic is fracturing globalisation, with continents becoming much more prominent again.
Economists would say it was forever thus. Globalisation is a powerful idea but most trade still happens between countries in close geographic proximity.
Nevertheless, Covid-19 may cement that. Perhaps there is an element of cause and effect but whatever the reason, the science is pretty clear: the world is diving up into epidemiologically homogeneous zones bound principally by geography.
First, you’ve got the Americas where case numbers are high and going in the wrong direction. For a while, Trump’s America looked like it might emulate the EU’s sombrero-shaped epidemic curve. Instead, it has gone for a “ski-jump” and is now on a trajectory similar to the central and Latin American nations south of the Rio Grande.
Next up are China, the tiger economies of south-east Asia and Australasia. Case numbers there are of an order of magnitude lower than anywhere else and their curves indicate transmission has been brought under control for the time being at least. These are places, including Australia, where customers are happy to give their names at the pub door. They stand in stark contrast to India and Pakistan in South Asia.
Much is made of the UK being an outlier in Europe – and it’s true that our deaths and case numbers look pretty dreadful compared to the vast majority of our EU neighbours. But in the grand scheme of things, the science shows we very much remain part of Europe.
The Prime Minister’s instinct may have been to follow the land of the free. Our Anglo Saxon economy with its shrivelled state left us short of German resilience. But in the end, we Brits glanced across the channel and demanded an EU-style lockdown and that’s what we got.
In 2120, when the BBC runs a documentary on the centenary of the pandemic, I imagine a learned professor from Robert Koch Imperial Insitute will figure prominently: “As you can see from the charts, British exceptionalism eventually gave way to shared European values, trade and science, all of which was determined to a large extent by geography”.
What’s any of this got to do with Brexit? Well, it’s most obviously coming to a head over travel policy, where again it is the science that is dictating things. An EU strategy document published on May 13 set the high-level principles on which “travel corridors” are likely to be based for the rest of this year in Europe and probably much of next.
“Restrictions on travel should first be lifted in areas with a comparable epidemiological situation and where sufficient capabilities are in place in terms of hospitals, testing, surveillance and contact tracing capacities”, says the EU document.
Britain is no longer in the EU and so can pioneer its own policy. Just four days after the EU strategy was published, Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, did exactly that.
He came up with the world-beating idea of “air bridges” between nations of a comparable epidemiological situation. “This includes the country’s infection rate... whether it has a test and trace system to limit any outbreaks”, his department says.
The full list of low, medium and high-risk countries will be published by the Department of Transport on Monday. They will chuck in a few island tax havens but most of those that you or I might visit will be in the European Union.
As Brexit moves on, expect more of this. Covid science will push us inexorably closer to Europe in the short term at least. Travel is a no brainer. And in trade, the whispers have it that a deal on level playing field provisions have been agreed in principle.
The new Covid track and trace app will adopt Google and Apple’s European API. And as the jobs crisis bites, expect the educated young to kick off about keeping their right to work in Europe.
If you are looking for a political canary, look no further than the international trade minister Liz Truss. This week she launched what was dubbed a “furious” attack on the US for its threatened imposition of “arbitrary tariffs” on the UK and Europe.
You might think this out of character for a minister who more than any other represents global Britain. But that was before Covid-19. Let’s face it, if we really still wanted to import American chicken we would all now be insisting it was chlorine washed.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 27, 2020 9:34:59 GMT
If you don't like that one, feel free to google it and read any of the myriad other peer-reviewed papers on the subject. Surprising just how many different studies by experts in their fields have come up with similar conclusions. You could just dismiss them all as biased or inadequately researched if that makes it easier? Although they have all been peer-reviewed prior to publication which makes that a bit awkward! And yes, they are the opinions of the authors based on their research findings. The fact that different, independent research streams resulted in similar findings and similar conclusions from the authors is an odd coincidence. I'll wait for a similar paper showing how racism and prejudice influenced the Remain vote... I would imagine that all the studies you refer to were commissioned purely to research the psyche of a leave voter rather than the psyche of a remain voter. Many of the researches are questioning why the country voted for Brexit for which there is a number of different reasons. If you then limit the paper to a question of 'do Brexit voters hold racist views?' then there will be evidence of that because that is what the researchers are looking for. As Timmy pointed out above, I also know people who voted remain who hold casually racist views but didn't want to leave the EU. Have there actually been any research solely on the race views of remainers? Feel free to find them, post them on here and change my opinion! Until that happens, I'll continue to hold an opinion based on the wealth of information out there which found the opposite. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept that there isn't much, if any, well-researched, independent, peer-reviewed articles out there which found that racism/prejudice were highly influential in the Remain vote. If there were, I, you, and anyone else would have found it easily. I really don't know why this is so contentious. Surely, it doesn't come as a surprise to people, even if unpalatable?
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 27, 2020 9:37:57 GMT
Paul Nuki, Daily Telegraph As Brexit nears science will push us closer to the EU. When up against it, science has a way of bringing things to a head. I’m thinking of junk food, obesity and Covid-19. The twin epidemics of Covid and social inequalities. The tensions between have-it-all boomers and the young. There is another conflagration coming down the tracks. The pandemic and a thingymajig called “Brexit” may be about to collide. Take a look at the charts below and the data that underpin them. The pandemic is fracturing globalisation, with continents becoming much more prominent again. Economists would say it was forever thus. Globalisation is a powerful idea but most trade still happens between countries in close geographic proximity. Nevertheless, Covid-19 may cement that. Perhaps there is an element of cause and effect but whatever the reason, the science is pretty clear: the world is diving up into epidemiologically homogeneous zones bound principally by geography. First, you’ve got the Americas where case numbers are high and going in the wrong direction. For a while, Trump’s America looked like it might emulate the EU’s sombrero-shaped epidemic curve. Instead, it has gone for a “ski-jump” and is now on a trajectory similar to the central and Latin American nations south of the Rio Grande. Next up are China, the tiger economies of south-east Asia and Australasia. Case numbers there are of an order of magnitude lower than anywhere else and their curves indicate transmission has been brought under control for the time being at least. These are places, including Australia, where customers are happy to give their names at the pub door. They stand in stark contrast to India and Pakistan in South Asia. Much is made of the UK being an outlier in Europe – and it’s true that our deaths and case numbers look pretty dreadful compared to the vast majority of our EU neighbours. But in the grand scheme of things, the science shows we very much remain part of Europe. The Prime Minister’s instinct may have been to follow the land of the free. Our Anglo Saxon economy with its shrivelled state left us short of German resilience. But in the end, we Brits glanced across the channel and demanded an EU-style lockdown and that’s what we got. In 2120, when the BBC runs a documentary on the centenary of the pandemic, I imagine a learned professor from Robert Koch Imperial Insitute will figure prominently: “As you can see from the charts, British exceptionalism eventually gave way to shared European values, trade and science, all of which was determined to a large extent by geography”. What’s any of this got to do with Brexit? Well, it’s most obviously coming to a head over travel policy, where again it is the science that is dictating things. An EU strategy document published on May 13 set the high-level principles on which “travel corridors” are likely to be based for the rest of this year in Europe and probably much of next. “Restrictions on travel should first be lifted in areas with a comparable epidemiological situation and where sufficient capabilities are in place in terms of hospitals, testing, surveillance and contact tracing capacities”, says the EU document. Britain is no longer in the EU and so can pioneer its own policy. Just four days after the EU strategy was published, Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, did exactly that. He came up with the world-beating idea of “air bridges” between nations of a comparable epidemiological situation. “This includes the country’s infection rate... whether it has a test and trace system to limit any outbreaks”, his department says. The full list of low, medium and high-risk countries will be published by the Department of Transport on Monday. They will chuck in a few island tax havens but most of those that you or I might visit will be in the European Union. As Brexit moves on, expect more of this. Covid science will push us inexorably closer to Europe in the short term at least. Travel is a no brainer. And in trade, the whispers have it that a deal on level playing field provisions have been agreed in principle. The new Covid track and trace app will adopt Google and Apple’s European API. And as the jobs crisis bites, expect the educated young to kick off about keeping their right to work in Europe. If you are looking for a political canary, look no further than the international trade minister Liz Truss. This week she launched what was dubbed a “furious” attack on the US for its threatened imposition of “arbitrary tariffs” on the UK and Europe. You might think this out of character for a minister who more than any other represents global Britain. But that was before Covid-19. Let’s face it, if we really still wanted to import American chicken we would all now be insisting it was chlorine washed. Well if we sign a deal where the European Union has any jurisdiction at all in what this country does Then I eagerly await the next coming of fararge No deal and freedom
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Post by numpty40 on Jun 27, 2020 9:42:24 GMT
I would imagine that all the studies you refer to were commissioned purely to research the psyche of a leave voter rather than the psyche of a remain voter. Many of the researches are questioning why the country voted for Brexit for which there is a number of different reasons. If you then limit the paper to a question of 'do Brexit voters hold racist views?' then there will be evidence of that because that is what the researchers are looking for. As Timmy pointed out above, I also know people who voted remain who hold casually racist views but didn't want to leave the EU. Have there actually been any research solely on the race views of remainers? Feel free to find them, post them on here and change my opinion! Until that happens, I'll continue to hold an opinion based on the wealth of information out there which found the opposite. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept that there isn't much, if any, well-researched, independent, peer-reviewed articles out there which found that racism/prejudice were highly influential in the Remain vote. If there were, I, you, and anyone else would have found it easily. I really don't know why this is so contentious. Surely, it doesn't come as a surprise to people, even if unpalatable? I'm just giving a possible explanation as to why there isn't any. I don't find any of the research unpalatable. I know the reasons I voted leave and people like you insinuating that I'm racist really doesn't bother me, chill.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 27, 2020 9:48:48 GMT
Feel free to find them, post them on here and change my opinion! Until that happens, I'll continue to hold an opinion based on the wealth of information out there which found the opposite. I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept that there isn't much, if any, well-researched, independent, peer-reviewed articles out there which found that racism/prejudice were highly influential in the Remain vote. If there were, I, you, and anyone else would have found it easily. I really don't know why this is so contentious. Surely, it doesn't come as a surprise to people, even if unpalatable? I'm just giving a possible explanation as to why there isn't any. I don't find any of the research unpalatable. I know the reasons I voted leave and people like you insinuating that I'm racist really doesn't bother me, chill. I'm sure you're not, just like I've already said I'm sure none of the thinking in that research paper is shared by any of the posters on this thread. That being the case I'm not sure why the need to debunk it is so evident! But clearly, those researchers identified various Leave voting reasons based on varying levels of prejudice/racism as have numerous other independent researchers. They can't all be biased, surely? Or maybe you think they are, who knows? So much research has now been done about why people voted the way they did, I think the consensus of the findings are fairly reliable. I'm sure if any one team had found the opposite effect, it'd be a big breakthrough for them, that's generally how science and research work. Somebody discovers something - others test it to see what they find and publish in support or against according to their findings.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 27, 2020 9:58:28 GMT
I fail to follow the logic of the racist vote debate, surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU? That does not mean if you voted in favour of Brexit you are a racist.
I also fully expect those against immigration would vote to leave the EU, isn't that logical? But it does not mean that if you voted for Brexit that you are against immigration. I'm not, but I am against uncontrolled immigration where some foreign nationals have the automatic right to move to the UK and then claim benefits like family allowance and send the money back to their native country.
A normal national opinion poll sample is typically > 3,000, which may not seem large but, provided it is sampled at random, is sufficient to give a representative result for the nation (plus or minus <5%).
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 27, 2020 10:00:23 GMT
I fail to follow the logic of the racist vote debate, surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU? That does not mean if you voted in favour of Brexit you are a racist.I also fully expect those against immigration would vote to leave the EU, isn't that logical? But it does not mean that if you voted for Brexit that you are against immigration. I'm not, but I am against uncontrolled immigration where some foreign nationals have the automatic right to move to the UK and then claim benefits like family allowance and send the money back to their native country. A normal national opinion poll sample is typically > 3,000, which may not seem large but, provided it is sampled at random, is sufficient to give a representative result for the nation (plus or minus <5%). Completely agree! That's what I said No idea why this has triggered so much angst, other than I said it so most of the Brexiteers on here feel somehow obliged to disagree! And the only option is to try to discredit the research, make allegations of bias etc, the usual silliness frankly! Watch how quickly this will fade away now you've said that! I do wish people would read what is said, not who said it!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2020 10:01:18 GMT
I'm just giving a possible explanation as to why there isn't any. I don't find any of the research unpalatable. I know the reasons I voted leave and people like you insinuating that I'm racist really doesn't bother me, chill. I'm sure you're not, just like I've already said I'm sure none of the thinking in that research paper is shared by any of the posters on this thread. That being the case I'm not sure why the need to debunk it is so evident! But clearly, those researchers identified various Leave voting reasons based on varying levels of prejudice/racism as have numerous other independent researchers. They can't all be biased, surely? Or maybe you think they are, who knows? So much research has now been done about why people voted the way they did, I think the consensus of the findings are fairly reliable. I'm sure if any one team had found the opposite effect, it'd be a big breakthrough for them, that's generally how science and research work. Somebody discovers something - others test it to see what they find and publish in support or against according to their findings. It is a bit naive to think that academia is unbiased, researchers without an agenda. Luckily I find that many of the young people that I work with at University are now seeing through it, particularly after Brexit. Would you consider yourself to be racist yourself bring a Leave voter, or....if you are uncomfortable with the question ( although it seems ok for some to go round labelling others...it is always best to appraise yourself first) how do you reconcile yourself with sharing that side of the argument with " racists"?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 27, 2020 10:10:33 GMT
I fail to follow the logic of the racist vote debate, surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU? That does not mean if you voted in favour of Brexit you are a racist. I also fully expect those against immigration would vote to leave the EU, isn't that logical? But it does not mean that if you voted for Brexit that you are against immigration. I'm not, but I am against uncontrolled immigration where some foreign nationals have the automatic right to move to the UK and then claim benefits like family allowance and send the money back to their native country. A normal national opinion poll sample is typically > 3,000, which may not seem large but, provided it is sampled at random, is sufficient to give a representative result for the nation (plus or minus <5%). I agree MrCoke, but the arguments are much more complex than many who cannot accept the result of the referendum would have you believe. There still has to be an attack, even if veiled, because of the inability to accept the vote. The concept of controlling your own borders and your own immigration policy for instance is not racist but in my opinion many of the disaffected leavers hope that the association can be made. "Racism" is a concept that is now used too often just to create division, and it succeeds....not many people like to be called a racist....and the Left are shooting themselves in the foot big-time in respect of their Northern working class voters, who are a bit hurt and shocked by the insinuations....but it seems the Left are destined never to listen and not to learn. Didn't Keir Hardie become politicised due to the threat of Lithuanian immigrants to the jobs of miners? I wonder if HIS statue should come down? www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8418477/Questions-raised-bust-Labour-party-founder-Keir-Hardie-passes-woke-test.htmlI think that George Galloway, and the German Labour lady Gisela Stuart make the point well
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Post by Soro's Sorrows on Jun 27, 2020 11:58:03 GMT
I fail to follow the logic of the racist vote debate, surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU? That does not mean if you voted in favour of Brexit you are a racist.I also fully expect those against immigration would vote to leave the EU, isn't that logical? But it does not mean that if you voted for Brexit that you are against immigration. I'm not, but I am against uncontrolled immigration where some foreign nationals have the automatic right to move to the UK and then claim benefits like family allowance and send the money back to their native country. A normal national opinion poll sample is typically > 3,000, which may not seem large but, provided it is sampled at random, is sufficient to give a representative result for the nation (plus or minus <5%). Completely agree! That's what I said No idea why this has triggered so much angst, other than I said it so most of the Brexiteers on here feel somehow obliged to disagree! And the only option is to try to discredit the research, make allegations of bias etc, the usual silliness frankly! Watch how quickly this will fade away now you've said that! I do wish people would read what is said, not who said it! I am sorry if you feel that my questioning of your perceived fact is silliness. In truth I think it is silliness for anyone to say that all racists voted to leave the EU. To say that you would have to know who is racist and how they voted, do you have a list? What you are trying to do is to say that leave won because it was supported by racists and that normal people (non racists) who voted leave should accept this as an uncomfortable truth. It is your belief that their vote was only successful because a large group of people voted the same way based on a racial prejudice. That's fine, it's an understandable assumption but it isn't a fact and it is quite reasonable for people to question it.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 27, 2020 22:51:50 GMT
Completely agree! That's what I said No idea why this has triggered so much angst, other than I said it so most of the Brexiteers on here feel somehow obliged to disagree! And the only option is to try to discredit the research, make allegations of bias etc, the usual silliness frankly! Watch how quickly this will fade away now you've said that! I do wish people would read what is said, not who said it! I am sorry if you feel that my questioning of your perceived fact is silliness. In truth I think it is silliness for anyone to say that all racists voted to leave the EU. To say that you would have to know who is racist and how they voted, do you have a list? What you are trying to do is to say that leave won because it was supported by racists and that normal people (non racists) who voted leave should accept this as an uncomfortable truth. It is your belief that their vote was only successful because a large group of people voted the same way based on a racial prejudice. That's fine, it's an understandable assumption but it isn't a fact and it is quite reasonable for people to question it. Decent assumption though
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Post by Soro's Sorrows on Jun 27, 2020 23:42:54 GMT
I am sorry if you feel that my questioning of your perceived fact is silliness. In truth I think it is silliness for anyone to say that all racists voted to leave the EU. To say that you would have to know who is racist and how they voted, do you have a list? What you are trying to do is to say that leave won because it was supported by racists and that normal people (non racists) who voted leave should accept this as an uncomfortable truth. It is your belief that their vote was only successful because a large group of people voted the same way based on a racial prejudice. That's fine, it's an understandable assumption but it isn't a fact and it is quite reasonable for people to question it. Decent assumption though Assumptions are great, but not fact.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 8:07:49 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 28, 2020 8:26:09 GMT
I am sorry if you feel that my questioning of your perceived fact is silliness. In truth I think it is silliness for anyone to say that all racists voted to leave the EU. To say that you would have to know who is racist and how they voted, do you have a list? What you are trying to do is to say that leave won because it was supported by racists and that normal people (non racists) who voted leave should accept this as an uncomfortable truth. It is your belief that their vote was only successful because a large group of people voted the same way based on a racial prejudice. That's fine, it's an understandable assumption but it isn't a fact and it is quite reasonable for people to question it. Decent assumption though Of course! And it's all very well to question it too. Of course, it helps if you provide some kind of independent evidence to counter it, rather than just an opinion on a message board, which is why I've consistently asked for the same kind of research I provided showing that prejudice and racism were factors behind the Remain vote rather than the Leave one, but I'm still waiting. Let's just accept the obvious - there isn't any... And why it's just silliness to dismiss the wealth of research into how people voted as biased, which appears to be the other route. Obviously you can't ask every person who voted Leave, that'd be impossible, which, as mrcoke correctly says, is why representative samples are taken. And why the peer-reviewed aspect is important. If they're not up to scratch the methodology gets thrown out and the whole research rejected. At least mrcoke recognises the likely reality when he says "surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU?" Not sure why it's so contentious. What makes me laugh is when the Brexiteers on here see who's said that, see he's a Brexiteer and agree with him, when I said it, God no, can't have that! Unthinking tribalism at it's very best
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 28, 2020 8:34:28 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Jun 28, 2020 9:14:40 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Jun 28, 2020 9:16:17 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 9:27:44 GMT
Of course! And it's all very well to question it too. Of course, it helps if you provide some kind of independent evidence to counter it, rather than just an opinion on a message board, which is why I've consistently asked for the same kind of research I provided showing that prejudice and racism were factors behind the Remain vote rather than the Leave one, but I'm still waiting. Let's just accept the obvious - there isn't any... And why it's just silliness to dismiss the wealth of research into how people voted as biased, which appears to be the other route. Obviously you can't ask every person who voted Leave, that'd be impossible, which, as mrcoke correctly says, is why representative samples are taken. And why the peer-reviewed aspect is important. If they're not up to scratch the methodology gets thrown out and the whole research rejected. At least mrcoke recognises the likely reality when he says "surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU?" Not sure why it's so contentious. What makes me laugh is when the Brexiteers on here see who's said that, see he's a Brexiteer and agree with him, when I said it, God no, can't have that! Unthinking tribalism at it's very best One thingI am certain about Red , if Remain had won , " we " would not be analysing the result 4 years later....how did old people vote, young people, male, female, gay, black and white, regionally, thickos/ intelligence...those that didn't understand the purpose of the project...your obsession with the analysis is simply your inability to come to terms with not winning ( as Claire Fox says" the good guys won really")...specifically on the race isdue, since you think it is important to deal with it....how are we defining the racists ? Would you consider yourself to be one? Some people take the wide definition....." All white people are racists" .....afterall you have benefitted from the fruits of Colonialism and Slavery.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 10:00:03 GMT
Of course! And it's all very well to question it too. Of course, it helps if you provide some kind of independent evidence to counter it, rather than just an opinion on a message board, which is why I've consistently asked for the same kind of research I provided showing that prejudice and racism were factors behind the Remain vote rather than the Leave one, but I'm still waiting. Let's just accept the obvious - there isn't any... And why it's just silliness to dismiss the wealth of research into how people voted as biased, which appears to be the other route. Obviously you can't ask every person who voted Leave, that'd be impossible, which, as mrcoke correctly says, is why representative samples are taken. And why the peer-reviewed aspect is important. If they're not up to scratch the methodology gets thrown out and the whole research rejected. At least mrcoke recognises the likely reality when he says "surely the majority of racists would naturally vote to leave the EU?" Not sure why it's so contentious. What makes me laugh is when the Brexiteers on here see who's said that, see he's a Brexiteer and agree with him, when I said it, God no, can't have that! Unthinking tribalism at it's very best One thingI am certain about Red , if Remain had won , " we " would not be analysing the result 4 years later....how did old people vote, young people, male, female, gay, black and white, regionally, thickos/ intelligence...those that didn't understand the purpose of the project...your obsession with the analysis is simply your inability to come to terms with not winning ( as Claire Fox says" the good guys won really")...specifically on the race isdue, since you think it is important to deal with it....how are we defining the racists ? Would you consider yourself to be one? Some people take the wide definition....." All white people are racists" .....afterall you have benefitted from the fruits of Colonialism and Slavery. Just a couple of points on this BJR. If the result had gone the other way, this arguement that all would have died down and gone away is nonsense really. Would you expect National Nige to have rode off to the sunset without so much as a whisper? The ERG was founded in 1993 would they have disbanded and thought well thats that? The divisiveness had already sat in. When it comes to Racism/Brexit it is is foolish to claim that all people who voted on Brexit were racist and it is simply not true. However just going off people I know and even taking this board as an example I would anticipate that 99% of people in this country who have a rscost persuasion will have voted Brexit on the key issue of immigration. The final issue is that despite that vote now bekng implemented, with absolutely zero signs of anything positive to come out of it you as a Brexiter cannot expect the Remain vote to all of a sudden become pro-Brexit and dive head first into all the bullshit. It all came from the losers consent tosh that National Nige was firing around but its like expecting everyone to now be Tory due to the outcome of the last election.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 10:14:59 GMT
One thingI am certain about Red , if Remain had won , " we " would not be analysing the result 4 years later....how did old people vote, young people, male, female, gay, black and white, regionally, thickos/ intelligence...those that didn't understand the purpose of the project...your obsession with the analysis is simply your inability to come to terms with not winning ( as Claire Fox says" the good guys won really")...specifically on the race isdue, since you think it is important to deal with it....how are we defining the racists ? Would you consider yourself to be one? Some people take the wide definition....." All white people are racists" .....afterall you have benefitted from the fruits of Colonialism and Slavery. Just a couple of points on this BJR. If the result had gone the other way, this arguement that all would have died down and gone away is nonsense really. Would you expect National Nige to have rode off to the sunset without so much as a whisper? The ERG was founded in 1993 would they have disbanded and thought well thats that? The divisiveness had already sat in. When it comes to Racism/Brexit it is is foolish to claim that all people who voted on Brexit were racist and it is simply not true. However just going off people I know and even taking this board as an example I would anticipate that 99% of people in this country who have a rscost persuasion will have voted Brexit on the key issue of immigration. The final issue is that despite that vote now bekng implemented, with absolutely zero signs of anything positive to come out of it you as a Brexiter cannot expect the Remain vote to all of a sudden become pro-Brexit and dive head first into all the bullshit. It all came from the losers consent tosh that National Nige was firing around but its like expecting everyone to now be Tory due to the outcome of the last election. If Remain had won , Nige etc would have been completely sidelined, everything would have moved on , the result would have been accepted. Minor debates such as this on the Oatcake and analysis of voting patterns would not have taken place. The only analysisthat counted for anythingwas the overall result....the rest is to make Remainers feel better. It simply reflects the inability of some Remainers or to accept the result , nothing more. On the issue of labelling some people racist...I know that you are a different Red,but would you consider yourself Racist? While we are engaging, do you think that Keir Hardie was racist?
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 11:43:58 GMT
Just a couple of points on this BJR. If the result had gone the other way, this arguement that all would have died down and gone away is nonsense really. Would you expect National Nige to have rode off to the sunset without so much as a whisper? The ERG was founded in 1993 would they have disbanded and thought well thats that? The divisiveness had already sat in. When it comes to Racism/Brexit it is is foolish to claim that all people who voted on Brexit were racist and it is simply not true. However just going off people I know and even taking this board as an example I would anticipate that 99% of people in this country who have a rscost persuasion will have voted Brexit on the key issue of immigration. The final issue is that despite that vote now bekng implemented, with absolutely zero signs of anything positive to come out of it you as a Brexiter cannot expect the Remain vote to all of a sudden become pro-Brexit and dive head first into all the bullshit. It all came from the losers consent tosh that National Nige was firing around but its like expecting everyone to now be Tory due to the outcome of the last election. If Remain had won , Nige etc would have been completely sidelined, everything would have moved on , the result would have been accepted. Minor debates such as this on the Oatcake and analysis of voting patterns would not have taken place. The only analysisthat counted for anythingwas the overall result....the rest is to make Remainers feel better. It simply reflects the inability of some Remainers or to accept the result , nothing more. On the issue of labelling some people racist...I know that you are a different Red,but would you consider yourself Racist? While we are engaging, do you think that Keir Hardie was racist? I believe the opposite, the reaction and resistance would have been even stronger. No opinion on the ERG which is now 27 years old? Completely sidelined you say. He would have been even more bitter and divisive than he is now, and I know you're a big fan, so much so that before Christmas you couldn't think of anyone better to lead the country. I hope witch recent events that has led to a small shift in your opinion on the man but I do doubt it. Am I racist? No. I'm very much a Liberal snowflake believing in equality, facts and the glorious centre. In terms of Keir Hardy (and please remember that I am not a Labour Party member and I would equally inclined to vote for either of the 2 main parties depending on leader and manifesto) the recent quotes that have been published would lead me to believe that he was xenophobic, but if there is evidence to be shared about him either selling/branding/degrading or insulting black people I would be happy to change my mind. Do you believe that National Nige is a racist?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 12:03:26 GMT
If Remain had won , Nige etc would have been completely sidelined, everything would have moved on , the result would have been accepted. Minor debates such as this on the Oatcake and analysis of voting patterns would not have taken place. The only analysisthat counted for anythingwas the overall result....the rest is to make Remainers feel better. It simply reflects the inability of some Remainers or to accept the result , nothing more. On the issue of labelling some people racist...I know that you are a different Red,but would you consider yourself Racist? While we are engaging, do you think that Keir Hardie was racist? I believe the opposite, the reaction and resistance would have been even stronger. No opinion on the ERG which is now 27 years old? Completely sidelined you say. He would have been even more bitter and divisive than he is now, and I know you're a big fan, so much so that before Christmas you couldn't think of anyone better to lead the country. I hope witch recent events that has led to a small shift in your opinion on the man but I do doubt it. Am I racist? No. I'm very much a Liberal snowflake believing in equality, facts and the glorious centre. In terms of Keir Hardy (and please remember that I am not a Labour Party member and I would equally inclined to vote for either of the 2 main parties depending on leader and manifesto) the recent quotes that have been published would lead me to believe that he was xenophobic, but if there is evidence to be shared about him either selling/branding/degrading or insulting black people I would be happy to change my mind. Do you believe that National Nige is a racist? No I don't believe thst Nige is racist nor is he any more divisive than those who believe in Remain. I have met him but don't know him personally, I'm not really into judging people, particularly as racists, when I have no right to and little evidence....other than zGod perhaps it is only a court of law of self identity that can make the judgment ( was the Good Samaritan racist?).I do think that Nigel like Tony Benn ( he was dividive, perhaps most politiciansare it goes eith the job....one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist), believes in democracy and like Tony would have accepted the result. I've no problem with the ERG existing and campaigning. No problem eith groups / parties campaigning to Rejoin....it is totally wrong not to accept the decision to leave and try to thwart and undermine it....and what is clear now that msny remainers are still having trouble to accept the result and to move on. It's a shame really
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 12:12:20 GMT
I believe the opposite, the reaction and resistance would have been even stronger. No opinion on the ERG which is now 27 years old? Completely sidelined you say. He would have been even more bitter and divisive than he is now, and I know you're a big fan, so much so that before Christmas you couldn't think of anyone better to lead the country. I hope witch recent events that has led to a small shift in your opinion on the man but I do doubt it. Am I racist? No. I'm very much a Liberal snowflake believing in equality, facts and the glorious centre. In terms of Keir Hardy (and please remember that I am not a Labour Party member and I would equally inclined to vote for either of the 2 main parties depending on leader and manifesto) the recent quotes that have been published would lead me to believe that he was xenophobic, but if there is evidence to be shared about him either selling/branding/degrading or insulting black people I would be happy to change my mind. Do you believe that National Nige is a racist? No I don't believe thst Nige is racist nor is he any more divisive than those who believe in Remain. I have met him but don't know him personally, I'm not really into judging people, particularly as racists, when I have no right to and little evidence....other than zGod perhaps it is only a court of law of self identity that can make the judgment ( was the Good Samaritan racist?).I do think that Nigel like Tony Benn ( he was dividive, perhaps most politiciansare it goes eith the job....one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist), believes in democracy and like Tony would have accepted the result. I've no problem with the ERG existing and campaigning. No problem eith groups / parties campaigning to Rejoin....it is totally wrong not to accept the decision to leave and try to thwart and undermine it....and what is clear now that msny remainers are still having trouble to accept the result and to move on. It's a shame really But there is no movement or plan for rejoining so I don't know where your issue is? Last time I checked even the Lib Dem's haven't launched a rejoin campaign? You seem to have an issue with people pointing out all of the issues and negatives that come with Brexit as opposed to joining on the bandwagon. By the same token, whenever some obscure Pro EU MEP posts something on Twitter it is highlighted as some type of Brexit fuel, its all incredibly odd. I'm sure he was incredibly charismatic when you met him, was he whistling the Hitler Youth songs at the time?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 12:56:57 GMT
No I don't believe thst Nige is racist nor is he any more divisive than those who believe in Remain. I have met him but don't know him personally, I'm not really into judging people, particularly as racists, when I have no right to and little evidence....other than zGod perhaps it is only a court of law of self identity that can make the judgment ( was the Good Samaritan racist?).I do think that Nigel like Tony Benn ( he was dividive, perhaps most politiciansare it goes eith the job....one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist), believes in democracy and like Tony would have accepted the result. I've no problem with the ERG existing and campaigning. No problem eith groups / parties campaigning to Rejoin....it is totally wrong not to accept the decision to leave and try to thwart and undermine it....and what is clear now that msny remainers are still having trouble to accept the result and to move on. It's a shame really But there is no movement or plan for rejoining so I don't know where your issue is? Last time I checked even the Lib Dem's haven't launched a rejoin campaign? You seem to have an issue with people pointing out all of the issues and negatives that come with Brexit as opposed to joining on the bandwagon. By the same token, whenever some obscure Pro EU MEP posts something on Twitter it is highlighted as some type of Brexit fuel, its all incredibly odd. I'm sure he was incredibly charismatic when you met him, was he whistling the Hitler Youth songs at the time? I've no problem with anyone pointing out issues on being in the EU or not being in. That isn't what this particular part of the debate is about. I am questionibg how people decide who is a racist. I am also pointing out that many Remainers are having a lot of trouble accepting the result and need to keep analysing it 4 years later to make themselves feel better. no another thing that Remsiners seem to do when they lose the argument is to attack the person . Having a German ex wife and " part German" children I wouldn't think that he would have much to do euth Hitler Youth. Remainers do seem obsessed by race and Farage.....not so much democrscy and the nature of the EU.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 28, 2020 12:59:37 GMT
No I don't believe thst Nige is racist nor is he any more divisive than those who believe in Remain. I have met him but don't know him personally, I'm not really into judging people, particularly as racists, when I have no right to and little evidence....other than zGod perhaps it is only a court of law of self identity that can make the judgment ( was the Good Samaritan racist?).I do think that Nigel like Tony Benn ( he was dividive, perhaps most politiciansare it goes eith the job....one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist), believes in democracy and like Tony would have accepted the result. I've no problem with the ERG existing and campaigning. No problem eith groups / parties campaigning to Rejoin....it is totally wrong not to accept the decision to leave and try to thwart and undermine it....and what is clear now that msny remainers are still having trouble to accept the result and to move on. It's a shame really But there is no movement or plan for rejoining so I don't know where your issue is? Last time I checked even the Lib Dem's haven't launched a rejoin campaign? You seem to have an issue with people pointing out all of the issues and negatives that come with Brexit as opposed to joining on the bandwagon. By the same token, whenever some obscure Pro EU MEP posts something on Twitter it is highlighted as some type of Brexit fuel, its all incredibly odd. I'm sure he was incredibly charismatic when you met him, was he whistling the Hitler Youth songs at the time? If he was whistling a tune I'll lay odds it wasn't o tannenbaum
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 28, 2020 13:07:57 GMT
But there is no movement or plan for rejoining so I don't know where your issue is? Last time I checked even the Lib Dem's haven't launched a rejoin campaign? You seem to have an issue with people pointing out all of the issues and negatives that come with Brexit as opposed to joining on the bandwagon. By the same token, whenever some obscure Pro EU MEP posts something on Twitter it is highlighted as some type of Brexit fuel, its all incredibly odd. I'm sure he was incredibly charismatic when you met him, was he whistling the Hitler Youth songs at the time? I've no problem with anyone pointing out issues on being in the EU or not being in. That isn't what this particular part of the debate is about. I am questionibg how people decide who is a racist. I am also pointing out that many Remainers are having a lot of trouble accepting the result and need to keep analysing it 4 years later to make themselves feel better. no another thing that Remsiners seem to do when they lose the argument is to attack the person . Having a German ex wife and " part German" children I wouldn't think that he would have much to do euth Hitler Youth. Remainers do seem obsessed by race and Farage.....not so much democrscy and the nature of the EU. Youre back again on this accepting the result and getting yourself wound up about it. Who right now is trying to overturn the decision? It is done and it is over. However every lie that is slowly being exposed will continue to pointed out to you and you can either choose to acknowledge it safe in the knowledge we are out, or continue to ignore it whilst getting agitated at people who do not agree with your position. You may be racist BJR you may not be. Im unsure as I enjoy our debates and think you're most likely a decent bloke who I could have a good pint with, but the man who I feel influences you most politically is mosy definitely a xenophobic and facist sympathiser. But I suppose we only see what we want to see at the end of that day.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 28, 2020 13:17:46 GMT
I've no problem with anyone pointing out issues on being in the EU or not being in. That isn't what this particular part of the debate is about. I am questionibg how people decide who is a racist. I am also pointing out that many Remainers are having a lot of trouble accepting the result and need to keep analysing it 4 years later to make themselves feel better. no another thing that Remsiners seem to do when they lose the argument is to attack the person . Having a German ex wife and " part German" children I wouldn't think that he would have much to do euth Hitler Youth. Remainers do seem obsessed by race and Farage.....not so much democrscy and the nature of the EU. Youre back again on this accepting the result and getting yourself wound up about it. Who right now is trying to overturn the decision? It is done and it is over. However every lie that is slowly being exposed will continue to pointed out to you and you can either choose to acknowledge it safe in the knowledge we are out, or continue to ignore it whilst getting agitated at people who do not agree with your position. You may be racist BJR you may not be. Im unsure as I enjoy our debates and think you're most likely a decent bloke who I could have a good pint with, but the man who I feel influences you most politically is mosy definitely a xenophobic and facist sympathiser. But I suppose we only see what we want to see at the end of that day. I'm sorry to disappoint you Red but I'm not wound up at all. I think that description seems to belong to those who cannot accept the referendum result. Thanks for the personal analysis of my character though , I don't think I'm too bad. Farage hasn't influenced me as such but it is good to find a leader who largely articulates what I believe in ( in the main) and has successfully led from the front. It is a shame that your only argument is to insult him, always a sign of losing the argument. Even Galloway and Fox were able to work closely with him on the issues.....and of course a lot of working class people see him as representing their position. As you bring it up, being end of the University term , I am free for a pint virtually anytime over the next few months. I can travel , I'd be pleased to meet, Let me know.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 28, 2020 13:25:49 GMT
No I don't believe thst Nige is racist nor is he any more divisive than those who believe in Remain. I have met him but don't know him personally, I'm not really into judging people, particularly as racists, when I have no right to and little evidence....other than zGod perhaps it is only a court of law of self identity that can make the judgment ( was the Good Samaritan racist?).I do think that Nigel like Tony Benn ( he was dividive, perhaps most politiciansare it goes eith the job....one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist), believes in democracy and like Tony would have accepted the result. I've no problem with the ERG existing and campaigning. No problem eith groups / parties campaigning to Rejoin....it is totally wrong not to accept the decision to leave and try to thwart and undermine it....and what is clear now that msny remainers are still having trouble to accept the result and to move on. It's a shame really But there is no movement or plan for rejoining so I don't know where your issue is? Last time I checked even the Lib Dem's haven't launched a rejoin campaign? You seem to have an issue with people pointing out all of the issues and negatives that come with Brexit as opposed to joining on the bandwagon. By the same token, whenever some obscure Pro EU MEP posts something on Twitter it is highlighted as some type of Brexit fuel, its all incredibly odd. I'm sure he was incredibly charismatic when you met him, was he whistling the Hitler Youth songs at the time? I agree and I believe the same is true if Brexit supporters had lost the referendum. The difference now is we have had a GE where the voice of the people was quite clear, with long term Labour held constituencies supporting the "leave parties". There was a similar debate in the 1970s when the wings of the Labour and Tory parties wanting to leave the EEC. Harold Wilson settled the issue by holding a referendum and everyone generally accepted the result . Cameron tried to do the same, and there was a huge lobby from the establishment behind Cameron urging a remain vote. But the British people knew what they wanted. I know a number of people who voted to remain in the referendum because of the fear of leaving created by the establishment, but having seen how the vote went, and/or seen the behaviour of our establishment after the vote to thwart the result, have subsequently swung round against being in the EU, and voted accordingly in the GE. If the vote had been to remain, I would have accepted it grudgingly, knowing in my mind it would have been a huge sell out of our country to the EU with ever closer union. I just hope now, our negotiators realise this is a sovereignty issue, not a trade deal, and they stick to a hard line in negotiations. I am quite prepared to accept compromise on issues like fishing and permit the EU to fish in British waters, and sell into the EU in accordance with their standards. They still seem to have the attitude that they are European waters, and can dictate our UK economic and employment policies, using the false arguments like level playing field, which they themselves blatently ignore or interpret to their own advantage. I fully expect Spain to play silly beggars over Gibralter, French lorry drivers to blockade ports, etc. but we will just have to ride it out.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 28, 2020 13:33:39 GMT
I've no problem with anyone pointing out issues on being in the EU or not being in. That isn't what this particular part of the debate is about. I am questionibg how people decide who is a racist. I am also pointing out that many Remainers are having a lot of trouble accepting the result and need to keep analysing it 4 years later to make themselves feel better. no another thing that Remsiners seem to do when they lose the argument is to attack the person . Having a German ex wife and " part German" children I wouldn't think that he would have much to do euth Hitler Youth. Remainers do seem obsessed by race and Farage.....not so much democrscy and the nature of the EU. Youre back again on this accepting the result and getting yourself wound up about it. Who right now is trying to overturn the decision? It is done and it is over. However every lie that is slowly being exposed will continue to pointed out to you and you can either choose to acknowledge it safe in the knowledge we are out, or continue to ignore it whilst getting agitated at people who do not agree with your position. You may be racist BJR you may not be. Im unsure as I enjoy our debates and think you're most likely a decent bloke who I could have a good pint with, but the man who I feel influences you most politically is mosy definitely a xenophobic and facist sympathiser. But I suppose we only see what we want to see at the end of that day. The person who most influenced me to vote leave was Tony Benn Just interested in what you have to say about him
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