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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 24, 2020 12:06:35 GMT
Who's the lying bastard?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 12:09:23 GMT
For those interested there are some interesting essays in this document of 2013, that acknowledges the democratic deficit of the EU. Parliamentary scrutiny of the European Union | European scrutiny system in UK Parliament | Hansard Society www.hansardsociety.org.uk/publications/reports/measured-or-makeshift-parliamentary-scrutiny-of-the-european-unionEven Bill Cash had to argue for more scrutiny of the EU by the UK parliament....because the possibility of Leaving was still remote at that time. Even in the preamble it says that the UK MPs don't understand how the EU works ( what chance the rest of us)....it was meant to be like that, meant to be anti democrstic/ no scrutiny.....but we went along with it for too long....those with a peculiar emotional attachment to the institution were not prepared to scratch under the surface....it sounds sexy The EU , nice flag, they must be right( because our lot are no good) ..... From the preamble.... A common thread running through the pamphlet is that the House of Lords scrutiny model is better than that in the House of Commons. Too few MPs have a real understanding of how the EU works and many more of them need to engage more actively with the detail. Our membership of the EU affects almost every aspect of national life, but too many MPs deal in broad populist headlines rather than engaging actively with the details of policy and legislation emerging from Brussels. The ideas for reform outlined in the pamphlet are neither pro-European or anti-European – providing effective scrutiny of policy and laws is important whatever side of the debate you stand.’ Anyway now we've left it's best to look forward.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 12:20:41 GMT
I agree with Gisela Stuart, a German UK citizen who was sadly sidelined by the Labour Party
In 3013 from her essay about scrutiny of the EU ............... Some 10 years ago I was asked to chair a working group on national parliamentary scrutiny of EU legislation. The venue: Brussels. The occasion: the Convention on the Future of Europe. I visited a whole string of national parliaments from Finland to Portugal to see how they did it. I discovered the existence of COSAC (Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs of Parliaments of the European Union) and even attended some of their meetings. Then, I talked to colleagues back here. It was a journey of discovery and one I’d wish to share as I still think the debate is bedevilled by a lack of understanding of the politics that underpins the relationship between Parliament, member states and the EU. Before becoming an MP I had taught European law. I had stood as a candidate for the European Parliament. When I was a health minister, I attended Council meetings and gave evidence to the European Committee. I thought I knew how it worked – but all I knew were the mechanics. Slowly and surely I was beginning to understand the politics. Let’s start by asking what it is we want to achieve by scrutiny at national level. Do we want to be better informed, shape the decision-making process or at times make the government change its mind? I accept that it’s probably a mixture of all three, but what’s the primary purpose? If it’s about being better informed, then taking evidence and having debates will help. Getting papers well in advance and being able to ask questions is essential. But given the often abstract nature and long timescales of the decisions, it is hard to find a willing audience for these debates and ministers are able to give generic answers which tell us little about impact and long-term consequences. And even if they do, it becomes a battle over predicting the future, rather than a contestable discussion. If it’s about shaping decisions, then Parliament enters the stage far too late to make a difference. At EU level the Commission initiates and discussions take place with officials of 28 countries, as well as informal talks with the European Parliament, before the early drafts even hit the ministerial in-tray here and ages before it gets anywhere near Parliament. Initial drafts and suggestions go backwards and forwards and deals are struck. Conversations go something like this: ’We’ll help you over tobacco if you give way on paternity rights’, or ’Don’t press on gender balance on company boards and we will be helpful on cross-border policing.’
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 24, 2020 18:55:07 GMT
I agree with Gisela Stuart, a German UK citizen who was sadly sidelined by the Labour Party In 3013 from her essay about scrutiny of the EU ............... Some 10 years ago I was asked to chair a working group on national parliamentary scrutiny of EU legislation. The venue: Brussels. The occasion: the Convention on the Future of Europe. I visited a whole string of national parliaments from Finland to Portugal to see how they did it. I discovered the existence of COSAC (Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs of Parliaments of the European Union) and even attended some of their meetings. Then, I talked to colleagues back here. It was a journey of discovery and one I’d wish to share as I still think the debate is bedevilled by a lack of understanding of the politics that underpins the relationship between Parliament, member states and the EU. Before becoming an MP I had taught European law. I had stood as a candidate for the European Parliament. When I was a health minister, I attended Council meetings and gave evidence to the European Committee. I thought I knew how it worked – but all I knew were the mechanics. Slowly and surely I was beginning to understand the politics. Let’s start by asking what it is we want to achieve by scrutiny at national level. Do we want to be better informed, shape the decision-making process or at times make the government change its mind? I accept that it’s probably a mixture of all three, but what’s the primary purpose? If it’s about being better informed, then taking evidence and having debates will help. Getting papers well in advance and being able to ask questions is essential. But given the often abstract nature and long timescales of the decisions, it is hard to find a willing audience for these debates and ministers are able to give generic answers which tell us little about impact and long-term consequences. And even if they do, it becomes a battle over predicting the future, rather than a contestable discussion. If it’s about shaping decisions, then Parliament enters the stage far too late to make a difference. At EU level the Commission initiates and discussions take place with officials of 28 countries, as well as informal talks with the European Parliament, before the early drafts even hit the ministerial in-tray here and ages before it gets anywhere near Parliament. Initial drafts and suggestions go backwards and forwards and deals are struck. Conversations go something like this: ’We’ll help you over tobacco if you give way on paternity rights’, or ’Don’t press on gender balance on company boards and we will be helpful on cross-border policing.’ The American system works like that! A senator from one state says he will only vote for something providing his state gets something else? The whole system is slow and unwieldy. On top of that you have Executive Orders from the president? If citizens don’t like a law they can take it to the Supreme Court. Some did over Obamacare! The Supreme Court is notionally independent of the Executive and Legislature? But the president nominates the justices and the upper house I.e. Senate votes to accept them or not? Trump has been stuffing the SC with conservatives and placing Republican supporters onto the lower courts too! The judiciary is far from independent? We’ve got to negotiate a trade deal with Trump that will be voted on in Congress too? Quite complicated to put it mildly?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 19:23:23 GMT
I agree with Gisela Stuart, a German UK citizen who was sadly sidelined by the Labour Party In 3013 from her essay about scrutiny of the EU ............... Some 10 years ago I was asked to chair a working group on national parliamentary scrutiny of EU legislation. The venue: Brussels. The occasion: the Convention on the Future of Europe. I visited a whole string of national parliaments from Finland to Portugal to see how they did it. I discovered the existence of COSAC (Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs of Parliaments of the European Union) and even attended some of their meetings. Then, I talked to colleagues back here. It was a journey of discovery and one I’d wish to share as I still think the debate is bedevilled by a lack of understanding of the politics that underpins the relationship between Parliament, member states and the EU. Before becoming an MP I had taught European law. I had stood as a candidate for the European Parliament. When I was a health minister, I attended Council meetings and gave evidence to the European Committee. I thought I knew how it worked – but all I knew were the mechanics. Slowly and surely I was beginning to understand the politics. Let’s start by asking what it is we want to achieve by scrutiny at national level. Do we want to be better informed, shape the decision-making process or at times make the government change its mind? I accept that it’s probably a mixture of all three, but what’s the primary purpose? If it’s about being better informed, then taking evidence and having debates will help. Getting papers well in advance and being able to ask questions is essential. But given the often abstract nature and long timescales of the decisions, it is hard to find a willing audience for these debates and ministers are able to give generic answers which tell us little about impact and long-term consequences. And even if they do, it becomes a battle over predicting the future, rather than a contestable discussion. If it’s about shaping decisions, then Parliament enters the stage far too late to make a difference. At EU level the Commission initiates and discussions take place with officials of 28 countries, as well as informal talks with the European Parliament, before the early drafts even hit the ministerial in-tray here and ages before it gets anywhere near Parliament. Initial drafts and suggestions go backwards and forwards and deals are struck. Conversations go something like this: ’We’ll help you over tobacco if you give way on paternity rights’, or ’Don’t press on gender balance on company boards and we will be helpful on cross-border policing.’ The American system works like that! A senator from one state says he will only vote for something providing his state gets something else? The whole system is slow and unwieldy. On top of that you have Executive Orders from the president? If citizens don’t like a law they can take it to the Supreme Court. Some did over Obamacare! The Supreme Court is notionally independent of the Executive and Legislature? But the president nominates the justices and the upper house I.e. Senate votes to accept them or not? Trump has been stuffing the SC with conservatives and placing Republican supporters onto the lower courts too! The judiciary is far from independent? We’ve got to negotiate a trade deal with Trump that will be voted on in Congress too? Quite complicated to put it mildly? I prefer our system. I'm sure the Americans let the Canadians and Mexicans issue directives and regulations for them and dictate their foreign policy , agricultural policy etc....try to have a court of " justice"( Ha Ha) have any jurisdiction over them.....or have I got that slightly wrong.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 24, 2020 20:36:53 GMT
The American system works like that! A senator from one state says he will only vote for something providing his state gets something else? The whole system is slow and unwieldy. On top of that you have Executive Orders from the president? If citizens don’t like a law they can take it to the Supreme Court. Some did over Obamacare! The Supreme Court is notionally independent of the Executive and Legislature? But the president nominates the justices and the upper house I.e. Senate votes to accept them or not? Trump has been stuffing the SC with conservatives and placing Republican supporters onto the lower courts too! The judiciary is far from independent? We’ve got to negotiate a trade deal with Trump that will be voted on in Congress too? Quite complicated to put it mildly? I prefer our system. I'm sure the Americans let the Canadians and Mexicans issue directives and regulations for them and dictate their foreign policy , agricultural policy etc....try to have a court of " justice"( Ha Ha) have any jurisdiction over them.....or have I got that slightly wrong. Actually, the agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico is subject to an International Trade Court! It is in the provisions of the agreement. The agreement sets out many agreed positions on labour and environmental standards that all three countries are bound by! The idea that you can sign legal international trade deals and have no legal body to adjudicate disputes is utter tosh!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 20:41:27 GMT
I prefer our system. I'm sure the Americans let the Canadians and Mexicans issue directives and regulations for them and dictate their foreign policy , agricultural policy etc....try to have a court of " justice"( Ha Ha) have any jurisdiction over them.....or have I got that slightly wrong. Actually, the agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico is subject to an International Trade Court! It is in the provisions of the agreement. The agreement sets out many agreed positions on labour and environmental standards that all three countries are bound by! The idea that you can sign legal international trade deals and have no legal body to adjudicate disputes is utter tosh! Not comparable at all. Get real
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 24, 2020 20:51:37 GMT
Actually, the agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico is subject to an International Trade Court! It is in the provisions of the agreement. The agreement sets out many agreed positions on labour and environmental standards that all three countries are bound by! The idea that you can sign legal international trade deals and have no legal body to adjudicate disputes is utter tosh! Not comparable at all. Get real But you are pedalling a lie that leaving the EU means no court of justice but there will be probably several ? Furthermore, you stated that the trade agreement doesn’t impact foreign policy, military matters? Why should it? The US and Canada are both in NATO are bound legally by that legal treaty. Perhaps, that’s why it is called the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation! May I remind you the UK is legally bound to come to the aid of any member that is attacked. Don’t see parliamentary sovereignty getting in the way of us going to war if say Russia attacks Estonia?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 20:52:33 GMT
I prefer our system. I'm sure the Americans let the Canadians and Mexicans issue directives and regulations for them and dictate their foreign policy , agricultural policy etc....try to have a court of " justice"( Ha Ha) have any jurisdiction over them.....or have I got that slightly wrong. Actually, the agreement between the USA, Canada and Mexico is subject to an International Trade Court! It is in the provisions of the agreement. The agreement sets out many agreed positions on labour and environmental standards that all three countries are bound by! The idea that you can sign legal international trade deals and have no legal body to adjudicate disputes is utter tosh! Bill Cash knows his stuff , don't you think? He's not stupid. Squiggle about as much as you want, but this us what it was about. Anyway, good job wd have left eh?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 20:55:05 GMT
Not comparable at all. Get real But you are pedalling a lie that leaving the EU means no court of justice but there will be probably several ? Furthermore, you stated that the trade agreement doesn’t impact foreign policy, military matters? Why should it? The US and Canada are both in NATO are bound legally by that legal treaty. Perhaps, that’s why it is called the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation! May I remind you the UK is legally bound to come to the aid of any member that is attacked. Don’t see parliamentary sovereignty getting in the way of us going to war if say Russia attacks Estonia? No its about sovereignty and democracy. Independence and self determination. Have a listen to Bill, above. I'm all for NATO, we have to have international alliances and agreements....in fact I think that we are in the middle of negotiating one with the EU as we speak.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 21:06:16 GMT
Not comparable at all. Get real But you are pedalling a lie that leaving the EU means no court of justice but there will be probably several ? Furthermore, you stated that the trade agreement doesn’t impact foreign policy, military matters? Why should it? The US and Canada are both in NATO are bound legally by that legal treaty. Perhaps, that’s why it is called the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation! May I remind you the UK is legally bound to come to the aid of any member that is attacked. Don’t see parliamentary sovereignty getting in the way of us going to war if say Russia attacks Estonia? Anyway Nick , this is all ancient stuff as you know, I just had a few minutes to engage tonight. The main thing is , it was put to the people in a referendum about 4 years ago and for better or for worse, we decided that the EU was not for us ( not surprising really, we have never sat easily in the project, always have had good Eurosceptic representation in the EU " parliament"....but by no means the only Eurosceptic movement across Europe) We then confirmed the decision at a general election ( what happened to the " bollox to brexit party?). I think that democracy should now prevail....despite all the attempts to thwart it, don't you? And it's goodnight from him....
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 24, 2020 21:25:01 GMT
But you are pedalling a lie that leaving the EU means no court of justice but there will be probably several ? Furthermore, you stated that the trade agreement doesn’t impact foreign policy, military matters? Why should it? The US and Canada are both in NATO are bound legally by that legal treaty. Perhaps, that’s why it is called the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation! May I remind you the UK is legally bound to come to the aid of any member that is attacked. Don’t see parliamentary sovereignty getting in the way of us going to war if say Russia attacks Estonia? Anyway Nick , this is all ancient stuff as you know, I just had a few minutes to engage tonight. The main thing is , it was put to the people in a referendum about 4 years ago and for better or for worse, we decided that the EU was not for us ( not surprising really, we have never sat easily in the project, always have had good Eurosceptic representation in the EU " parliament"....but by no means the only Eurosceptic movement across Europe) We then confirmed the decision at a general election ( what happened to the " bollox to brexit party?). I think that democracy should now prevail....despite all the attempts to thwart it, don't you? And it's goodnight from him.... Nobody is disputing we should leave? We’ve already left the political side and the economic transition ends in December? The issue will be did we get a better deal? Personally, I think it will be 20 years or even 30 years before we know? But I don’t think this, well we voted so that gives everyone a free pass when it comes to the consequences? Surely, that is the greatest negation of democracy e.g. running off to America to work for Fox News? P.S. You miserable old burgher! You’ve not wished me Happy Birthday once today?!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 21:38:44 GMT
Anyway Nick , this is all ancient stuff as you know, I just had a few minutes to engage tonight. The main thing is , it was put to the people in a referendum about 4 years ago and for better or for worse, we decided that the EU was not for us ( not surprising really, we have never sat easily in the project, always have had good Eurosceptic representation in the EU " parliament"....but by no means the only Eurosceptic movement across Europe) We then confirmed the decision at a general election ( what happened to the " bollox to brexit party?). I think that democracy should now prevail....despite all the attempts to thwart it, don't you? And it's goodnight from him.... Nobody is disputing we should leave? We’ve already left the political side and the economic transition ends in December? The issue will be did we get a better deal? Personally, I think it will be 20 years or even 30 years before we know? But I don’t think this, well we voted so that gives everyone a free pass when it comes to the consequences? Surely, that is the greatest negation of democracy e.g. running off to America to work for Fox News? P.S. You miserable old burgher! You’ve not wished me Happy Birthday once today?! [/quote Happy Birthday Nick. Accept my apologies. ( please would you give me a week's reminder next year, I normally remember it, but I honestly forgot this year( I changed phones and have had trouble with syncing the diaries) 💥🌷🍰🎂🍾🥤 🛀
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 24, 2020 22:25:52 GMT
Yeah I know. Convenient isn't it. It is when their mother's German. There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 24, 2020 22:42:10 GMT
Wasn't Stanley Johnson a massive Remainer? Borris was as well before he changed his mind again
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 24, 2020 22:45:41 GMT
It is when their mother's German. There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. [ France is over twice the size of the UK, so what do they do with all the land,??
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 24, 2020 23:04:57 GMT
There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. [ France is over twice the size of the UK, so what do they do with all the land,?? Protest on it
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2020 6:41:02 GMT
There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. [ France is over twice the size of the UK, so what do they do with all the land,?? They could build " NEW TOWNS" for asylum seekers.. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom..as France is an integral and influential part of the organisation that has encouraged asylum it would make complete sense....if you looked at the EU area as a whole it would be best to locate extra people in least concentrated countries that would welcome them ( unlike and Poland or Hungary)....and as asylum seekers contribute more than they take out, enrich the culture and economy , then it can only be a good thing for France. Everyone's a winner.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2020 7:52:17 GMT
It is when their mother's German. There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. Possibly. I think most people are well aware of the distinction. Although there are also a great many Brexiteers who are anti-European too, at least towards the wrong kind of Europeans, e.g. Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, Turks. After all, as the nicotine-stained man-frog pointed out "Would you want a family of Romanians living next door?" Of course, I'm sure that kind of thinking isn't shared by anyone on this thread!
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2020 7:58:58 GMT
There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. [ France is over twice the size of the UK, so what do they do with all the land,?? I said " France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK", not that France isn't more than twice the size of the UK. France actually has 69% more land under agriculture than the UK, 290,900 sq. km. c.f. 171,640 sq.km. www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/France/United-Kingdom/AgricultureFrance has far more arable land than the UK, and the CAP is skewed in their favour, as CAP is based on crops and arable land can produce more than one crop per year. What do they do with their extra land? Well a lot of it is mountains. France farm just over half their land, while we in the UK farm 70%. Does that answer your question? France is far and away the leading agriculture country in Europe is terms of produce, numbers employed (over twice the UK), number of farms etc. But it is also one of the most backward with low efficiency and higher numbers of tenant farmers, and is close to collapse but for the CAP support.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2020 8:42:43 GMT
There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. Possibly. I think most people are well aware of the distinction. Although there are also a great many Brexiteers who are anti-European too, at least towards the wrong kind of Europeans, e.g. Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, Turks. After all, as the nicotine-stained man-frog pointed out "Would you want a family of Romanians living next door?" Of course, I'm sure that kind of thinking isn't shared by anyone on this thread! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_KingdomI believe that you may be right, that kind of thinking probably isn't shared by anyone on this thread. I love Europeans and European culture....particularly the French and Italans but I do have a soft spot for Poles and peculiarly enough Estonians. Brexiteers just want to control their own affairs , simple. You do seem to want to create some sort of racial divide. Try the right wing racists , Galloway( I speak a little Romanisn, I've even had a book published in Romanian)and Benn . I make no apologies about posting it for the umpteenth time, as it answers your repetitive "( non) argument". Anyway, we've now left so let's make the best of the future and try to instil a bit of positivity....following any great change we, need to draw aline under certain issues and get on with it, with some vision and enthusiasm....see the second workd war, the Good Friday Agreement or the leaving of the Empire of the Indian sub continent
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 25, 2020 11:30:31 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!)
Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know)
There are lots of reasons to leave the EU too but
not to worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2020 11:36:58 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!) Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know) But don't worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon! None of that matters, spit, we've got £350 mill a week to spend wherever we like now, but more importantly, we've got our sovereignty back.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2020 13:12:10 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!) Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know) There are lots of reasons to leave the EU too but not to worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon! Better go to Waitrose www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53179588I remember when we joined the common market (EEC) which I was in favour of, there were all sorts of stupid rumours like we would have to have straight bananas and cucumbers. Now we have left there are equally stupid alarmist rumours, but probably more due to the blessed internet and increased (mis)communication.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2020 13:18:27 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!) Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know) There are lots of reasons to leave the EU too but not to worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon! I wonder if it is worth starting the campaign and argument to rejoin?
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 25, 2020 13:19:40 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!) Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know) But don't worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon! None of that matters, spit, we've got £350 mill a week to spend wherever we like now, but more importantly, we've got our sovereignty back. That's the spirit I knew you'd get there in the end
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2020 13:39:16 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!) Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know) There are lots of reasons to leave the EU too but not to worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon! Better go to Waitrose www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53179588I remember when we joined the common market (EEC) which I was in favour of, there were all sorts of stupid rumours like we would have to have straight bananas and cucumbers. Now we have left there are equally stupid alarmist rumours, but probably more due to the blessed internet and increased (mis)communication. So it seems like we have a choice then , about what we buy MrCoke....according to your link. I wonder if it is more difficult to avoid Halal food....perhaps we should have a referendum to see if people want it?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2020 13:42:46 GMT
Our total payments to the EU over 47 years = £217 billion (which has contributed to alot of employment and infrastructure btw)...around 3 million jobs in the UK linked to EU exports for example (according to House of Commons report 2016 and South Bank University report 2000)...some cities totally transformed through EU investment e.g. Hull (anybody who has worked there will tell you that - more than £100m invested there, £150m WAS earmarked for Stoke-on-Trent in 2021- I bet the Council are looking forward to covering that!!!!) Brexit has so far cost £130 billion (with zero return) and will cost a further £70 billion to complete...estimated cost between £200-£220 billion (though it will be more than this because costs are always more than estimates in any Gov't project as we all know) There are lots of reasons to leave the EU too but not to worry we'll all be able to eat cheap chlorinated chicken soon! Better go to Waitrose www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53179588I remember when we joined the common market (EEC) which I was in favour of, there were all sorts of stupid rumours like we would have to have straight bananas and cucumbers. Now we have left there are equally stupid alarmist rumours, but probably more due to the blessed internet and increased (mis)communication. Indeed, and I remember who wrote many of those stories, one Boris Johnson while 'working' as a journalist for the Telegraph! Sacked for lying, who'd've thought it! www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/14/boris-johnson-brussels-bashing-stories-shaped-politics
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2020 16:27:56 GMT
Better go to Waitrose www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53179588I remember when we joined the common market (EEC) which I was in favour of, there were all sorts of stupid rumours like we would have to have straight bananas and cucumbers. Now we have left there are equally stupid alarmist rumours, but probably more due to the blessed internet and increased (mis)communication. So it seems like we have a choice then , about what we buy MrCoke....according to your link. I wonder if it is more difficult to avoid Halal food....perhaps we should have a referendum to see if people want it? I think I will have been a long time under the sod by the time another British politician proposes a referendum!
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Post by thevoid on Jun 25, 2020 17:53:39 GMT
It is when their mother's German. There persists a view in many people's minds that Farage and Brexit supporters like me are anti- European. I know many wonderful people on the continent and was conversing by e mail with a German friend last week. I am anti EU. I used to be in favour of being in the EEC ("common market") and could see the value of it, BUT I don't want my country governed by a bureaucracy in Brussels. There is huge corruption in Europe. I worked for a large French company for some years, and there was one set of rules for the French plants and another set of rules for the plants the company owned in other countries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_FranceI met corruption in the UK during my career, but not on the scale I saw in France. How can any pro European justify the facts that France has less than double the area of land in agriculture than the UK, has about twice as many people employed in agriculture as the UK, but receives nearly three times the CAP subsidy as the UK? We are out now and I'm glad, but I still care for my European friends. Farage's first wife is Irish and his second wife is German. My first wife was Irish. My family are Irish and I love travelling. To say people who voted to Leave are racist is lazy stereotyping, but everything has to be put in a little box and dressed with a bow these days.
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