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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 23, 2020 10:47:30 GMT
God bless the brave Brexiteers for fighting for a better future for the country. Heroes, each & every one of you. Thank you glad I did my bit
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Post by Dave the Rave on Jun 23, 2020 11:37:17 GMT
God bless the brave Brexiteers for fighting for a better future for the country. Heroes, each & every one of you. History will judge. They could well be remembered as traitors in decades to come. Let's hope not and everything works out. If Brexit doesn't help to reverse increasing poverty and close the gap between rich and poor, it will have undoubtedly been a failure. Brexit should improve the lives of the most vulnerable, not the already privileged. I'm worried with these particular Tories in charge it'll be the latter but will be delighted if they prove me wrong.
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Post by foster on Jun 23, 2020 11:41:34 GMT
Is Brexit still happening? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/KYqg3pYeaerc5lD_P7BR.gif)
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 11:43:06 GMT
God bless the brave Brexiteers for fighting for a better future for the country. Heroes, each & every one of you. History will judge. They could well be remembered as traitors in decades to come. Let's hope not and everything works out. If Brexit doesn't help to reverse increasing poverty and close the gap between rich and poor, it will have undoubtedly been a failure. Brexit should improve the lives of the most vulnerable, not the already privileged. I'm worried with these particular Tories in charge it'll be the latter but will be delighted if they prove me wrong. I don't think they'll ever be seen as traitors, misguided maybe, but doing what they thought was the right course of action, just like those who voted to Remain. Although, of course, 'traitors' has already been levelled repeatedly at Remainers. And one was shot for being a 'traitor' to Britain.
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Post by Dave the Rave on Jun 23, 2020 12:07:22 GMT
History will judge. They could well be remembered as traitors in decades to come. Let's hope not and everything works out. If Brexit doesn't help to reverse increasing poverty and close the gap between rich and poor, it will have undoubtedly been a failure. Brexit should improve the lives of the most vulnerable, not the already privileged. I'm worried with these particular Tories in charge it'll be the latter but will be delighted if they prove me wrong. I don't think they'll ever be seen as traitors, misguided maybe, but doing what they thought was the right course of action, just like those who voted to Remain. Although, of course, 'traitors' has already been levelled repeatedly at Remainers. And one was shot for being a 'traitor' to Britain. True, traitor isn't a word I'd particularly use myself, not being a nationalistic person, but has been thrown at so many who think Brexit is a mistake. If anything, standing up for what you believe is best for your country is the opposite of treason - and in that regard neither those who voted leave or remain are traitors.
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Post by foster on Jun 23, 2020 12:14:05 GMT
I don't think they'll ever be seen as traitors, misguided maybe, but doing what they thought was the right course of action, just like those who voted to Remain. Although, of course, 'traitors' has already been levelled repeatedly at Remainers. And one was shot for being a 'traitor' to Britain. True, traitor isn't a word I'd particularly use myself, not being a nationalistic person, but has been thrown at so many who think Brexit is a mistake. If anything, standing up for what you believe is best for your country is the opposite of treason - and in that regard neither those who voted leave or remain are traitors. Pretty disgusting of anyone to label someone from either side as a 'traitor', for what was effectively a vote that encompassed many different things which impacted peoples lives differently. I don't think anyone went out of their way to vote for the option they thought was going to fuck up their country and life the most.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 12:23:06 GMT
I don't think they'll ever be seen as traitors, misguided maybe, but doing what they thought was the right course of action, just like those who voted to Remain. Although, of course, 'traitors' has already been levelled repeatedly at Remainers. And one was shot for being a 'traitor' to Britain. True, traitor isn't a word I'd particularly use myself, not being a nationalistic person, but has been thrown at so many who think Brexit is a mistake. If anything, standing up for what you believe is best for your country is the opposite of treason - and in that regard neither those who voted leave or remain are traitors. A lot of it comes from the right-wing press which uses headlines like Enemies of the People and the like. That one was used towards judges upholding the law! Anyone who thinks the media doesn't influence people's ways of thinking is deluding themselves.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 23, 2020 12:26:29 GMT
True, traitor isn't a word I'd particularly use myself, not being a nationalistic person, but has been thrown at so many who think Brexit is a mistake. If anything, standing up for what you believe is best for your country is the opposite of treason - and in that regard neither those who voted leave or remain are traitors. Pretty disgusting of anyone to label someone from either side as a 'traitor', for what was effectively a vote that encompassed many different things which impacted peoples lives differently. I don't think anyone went out of their way to vote for the option they thought was going to fuck up their country and life the most. I agree people who voted remain are not traitors Now those who failed to accept a democratic vote and then tried everything they could to overturn it Well that's different the word traitor is a touch weak
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 23, 2020 14:51:02 GMT
Pretty disgusting of anyone to label someone from either side as a 'traitor', for what was effectively a vote that encompassed many different things which impacted peoples lives differently. I don't think anyone went out of their way to vote for the option they thought was going to fuck up their country and life the most. I agree people who voted remain are not traitors Now those who failed to accept a democratic vote and then tried everything they could to overturn it Well that's different the word traitor is a touch weak What's more, many stood in a general election with a promise to deliver the referendum. I actually have more respect for those who opposed leaving than those who promised to deliver Brexit and then undermined its delivery, and those who just try to delay and hope it would go away or the public change its mind.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 24, 2020 7:37:33 GMT
Some people hedging their bets. Bloody elites eh.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 24, 2020 7:50:06 GMT
Some people doing well out of it.
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Post by thevoid on Jun 24, 2020 7:57:37 GMT
Some people hedging their bets. Bloody elites eh. Farage's kids have dual nationality.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jun 24, 2020 8:06:04 GMT
Wasn't Stanley Johnson a massive Remainer?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 8:07:39 GMT
Wasn't Stanley Johnson a massive Remainer? Originally, I think, but then changed his mind in 2017. I think his mum is French....a true European.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 24, 2020 8:17:43 GMT
Some people hedging their bets. Bloody elites eh. Farage's kids have dual nationality. Yeah I know. Convenient isn't it.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 8:21:01 GMT
The EU are having trouble treating the UK as an independent, sovereign country. We , quite rightly, had to acknowledge Iceland's sovereignty and territorial waters following the Cod wars.....It seems to me that there will be a battle as we fight over resources.I don't think that Dutch and French fishermen are going to be compliant. This seems to be factual, but Ive not checked it out. www.facts4eu.org/news/2020_jun_eu_wants_uk_watersThe UK are NOT saying that EU boats should not have access, it is more of a question oof who has control ............ From the link In essence, the British position is simply that of a sovereign nation, in charge of its own waters. The EU’s position is that it must continue to be free to plunder British waters as it sees fit. The Brexit Facts4EU.Org team’s position has always been one of absolute common sense. Of course a free and independent sovereign nation must be fully in control of its own waters. Of course it should decide who is allowed in to fish, and who isn’t. Our fishing fleet has been halved by the EU As a result of the EU’s disastrous Common Fisheries Policy, the UK’s fishing fleet has been decimated. It will take years to rebuild it. It makes perfect sense to do a deal with the EU to allow some EU27 boats (but not the massive “factory trawlers”) in to UK waters under licence and under strict controls. Such an agreement should be reviewed annually, exactly as David Frost and his team are proposing.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 24, 2020 8:24:43 GMT
The EU are having trouble treating the UK as an independent, sovereign country. We , quite rightly, had to acknowledge Iceland's sovereignty and territorial waters following the Cod wars.....It seems to me that there will be a battle as we fight over resources.I don't think that Dutch and French fishermen are going to be compliant. This seems to be factual, but Ive not checked it out. www.facts4eu.org/news/2020_jun_eu_wants_uk_watersWell time to start building half a dozen fisheries protection vessels
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Post by thevoid on Jun 24, 2020 8:32:20 GMT
Farage's kids have dual nationality. Yeah I know. Convenient isn't it. It is when their mother's German.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 24, 2020 8:45:33 GMT
Yeah I know. Convenient isn't it. It is when their mother's German. Beautiful escape route isn't it. Any comment on classic Dom's AI friends. Bit of a conicidence all those contracts isn't it? Even Ministers with their noses literally in that trough. Brexit winners and losers, lets start compiling the list shall we and see who the real elites are?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 24, 2020 8:46:54 GMT
The EU are having trouble treating the UK as an independent, sovereign country. We , quite rightly, had to acknowledge Iceland's sovereignty and territorial waters following the Cod wars.....It seems to me that there will be a battle as we fight over resources.I don't think that Dutch and French fishermen are going to be compliant. This seems to be factual, but Ive not checked it out. www.facts4eu.org/news/2020_jun_eu_wants_uk_watersWell time to start building half a dozen fisheries protection vessels Good point. We've got £350 mill a week to play with...
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 24, 2020 9:00:05 GMT
I wouldn't trust Boris to deliver on Brexit. The guy is an opportunist. The only hope I still have is that he knows his time is running out due to the mess made of managing the pandemic and that shortly before the next election the 1922 committee will go for a new more electable Tory leader. That being the case (purely supposition on my part), he might as well go full steam ahead with Brexit negotiations threatening no deal to the wire. He can then go down in history as the man who led Britain through one of it's toughest periods in history, like his hero Churchill and Lloyd George who are also despised by large sections of our society, for the things they damaged. I think it is hard to get to the bottom of what Boris is all about, despite the " evidence" Things change quickly in politics. He might be seen as the PM who has stood strong against the onslaught on 3 fronts, standing up to the media, who think they run the show, the backlash and critics because of the handling of the pandemic, and Brexit There is no PM in history who has got such a soft ride as BJ with our Press. They are all over him for the main part. How many times are they going to use the headline "Cheers Boris!!" the headline that seems to greet his every move......which other PM was repeatedly known by their first name, cant remember any Cheers Theresa, David, Tony, Gordon headlines! Absolute no critical analysis of his cock ups unless you read the Guardian which most people don't.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 9:01:27 GMT
I think it is hard to get to the bottom of what Boris is all about, despite the " evidence" Things change quickly in politics. He might be seen as the PM who has stood strong against the onslaught on 3 fronts, standing up to the media, who think they run the show, the backlash and critics because of the handling of the pandemic, and Brexit There is no PM in history who has got such a soft ride as BJ with our Press. They are all over him for the main part. How many times are they going to use the headline "Cheers Boris!!" the headline that seems to greet his every move......which other PM was repeatedly known by their first name, cant remember any Cheers Theresa, David, Tony, Gordon headlines! Absolute no critical analysis of his cock ups. I disagree
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Post by Timmypotter on Jun 24, 2020 9:57:22 GMT
And the creation of the legislation will in all likelihood have been written not with the best interests of the people of Europe in mind (as though the best interests of all the people in Europe can be represented in one legislature), but rather with the interests of a narrow group of businesses in mind. This group have a noble aim tackling this problem - www.alter-eu.org/what-is-the-problemUnfortunately, I don't think they'll be able to achieve any of this within the EU - www.alter-eu.org/what-we-want
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Post by Timmypotter on Jun 24, 2020 10:05:40 GMT
Wasn't Stanley Johnson a massive Remainer? Originally, I think, but then changed his mind in 2017. I think his mum is French....a true European. And his dad was half Turkish. His grandfather was an interior minister in the Ottoman Empire who was murdered in the Turkish war of independence - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Kemal
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 24, 2020 10:10:11 GMT
There is no PM in history who has got such a soft ride as BJ with our Press. They are all over him for the main part. How many times are they going to use the headline "Cheers Boris!!" the headline that seems to greet his every move......which other PM was repeatedly known by their first name, cant remember any Cheers Theresa, David, Tony, Gordon headlines! Absolute no critical analysis of his cock ups. I disagree and this is one of the reasons why he gets yet another front page "Cheers Boris" from the Daily Express this morning "The row centres around a 1,500 home development at the former Westferry printing works on the Isle of Dogs, in East London. The developer, former Daily Express owner Richard Desmond, personally gave the Conservative Party £12,000 two weeks after the scheme was approved, in January." Fairly low level by Conservative standards but definitely worth a Cheers....nice little pay off! (Please don't reply about corruption in other parties...I know from first hand experience about corruption in all parties...you don't have to tell me..that is not the point ...its not a competition...there is a reason why corruption in ruling parties should be a top priority... the sooner people realise we are ruled by licensed criminals the better for everyone) ps Desmond is still very much connected with the Express network, they are all part of a merry go round cult
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 10:22:23 GMT
and this is one of the reasons why he gets yet another front page "Cheers Boris" from the Daily Express this morning "The row centres around a 1,500 home development at the former Westferry printing works on the Isle of Dogs, in East London. The developer, former Daily Express owner Richard Desmond, personally gave the Conservative Party £12,000 two weeks after the scheme was approved, in January." Fairly low level by Conservative standards but definitely worth a Cheers....nice little pay off! (Please don't reply about corruption in other parties...I know from first hand experience about corruption in all parties...you don't have to tell me..that is not the point ...its not a competition...there is a reason why corruption in ruling parties should be a top priority... the sooner people realise we are ruled by licensed criminals the better for everyone) In the Internet age the opposition expect daily, almost minute by minute scrutiny of our politicians. Im not necessarily saying it is a bad thing but I would hope that they have more to do than do a PR job....perhaps the Internet gives the opposition a chance to undermine the government that an election didn't provide, perhaps they whip themselves into a frenzy.....a bit similar to how the Mccanns are scrutinised, it could only happen in the Internet age. In keeping with the title of the thread....do you think that the EU politicians are scrutinised here on the UK or elsewhere? The ONLY time any would be scrutinised is if hey questioned 'ever closer union '....which isn't going to happen, because the MEPs are paid a ridiculous salary on the mission towards a United States of Europe....OR if French or German interests are threatened. It's a good job we are out.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 24, 2020 11:03:01 GMT
and this is one of the reasons why he gets yet another front page "Cheers Boris" from the Daily Express this morning "The row centres around a 1,500 home development at the former Westferry printing works on the Isle of Dogs, in East London. The developer, former Daily Express owner Richard Desmond, personally gave the Conservative Party £12,000 two weeks after the scheme was approved, in January." Fairly low level by Conservative standards but definitely worth a Cheers....nice little pay off! (Please don't reply about corruption in other parties...I know from first hand experience about corruption in all parties...you don't have to tell me..that is not the point ...its not a competition...there is a reason why corruption in ruling parties should be a top priority... the sooner people realise we are ruled by licensed criminals the better for everyone) In the Internet age the opposition expect daily, almost minute by minute scrutiny of our politicians. Im not necessarily saying it is a bad thing but I would hope that they have more to do than do a PR job....perhaps the Internet gives the opposition a chance to undermine the government that an election didn't provide, perhaps they whip themselves into a frenzy.....a bit similar to how the Mccanns are scrutinised, it could only happen in the Internet age. In keeping with the title of the thread....do you think that the EU politicians are scrutinised here on the UK or elsewhere? The ONLY time any would be scrutinised is if hey questioned 'ever closer union '....which isn't going to happen, because the MEPs are paid a ridiculous salary on the mission towards a United States of Europe....OR if French or German interests are threatened. It's a good job we are out. I don't follow your first sentence at all, not sure what point you are making there. 2nd part Politicians are generally not scrutinised anywhere at all, only in a very superficial way. They may lose their jobs etc but they are replaced with someone who plays a slightly different tune on the same fiddle basically. The internet has just provided an opportunity for a greater scale of manipulation and misinformation and less focussed scrutiny. The only reason I voted against Brexit was not because of the virtues of the EU but because we are replacing one corruption with another at a great cost (how much so far?) with less regulation on standards and greater opportunities for corruption (look at the deals we are going to be signing with US concerning the deregulation of food standards. Cheaper food that is going cause more health problems, more pressure on the NHS which we all have to pay for etc , etc and a few individuals making millions if not billions on the back of it. There will not be any meaningful scrutiny of this. A few posts on the Oatcake and the odd article in the Guardian is not proper scrutiny imho...i.e it wont make one iota of difference.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 11:16:11 GMT
In the Internet age the opposition expect daily, almost minute by minute scrutiny of our politicians. Im not necessarily saying it is a bad thing but I would hope that they have more to do than do a PR job....perhaps the Internet gives the opposition a chance to undermine the government that an election didn't provide, perhaps they whip themselves into a frenzy.....a bit similar to how the Mccanns are scrutinised, it could only happen in the Internet age. In keeping with the title of the thread....do you think that the EU politicians are scrutinised here on the UK or elsewhere? The ONLY time any would be scrutinised is if hey questioned 'ever closer union '....which isn't going to happen, because the MEPs are paid a ridiculous salary on the mission towards a United States of Europe....OR if French or German interests are threatened. It's a good job we are out. I don't follow your first sentence at all, not sure what point you are making there. 2nd part Politicians are generally not scrutinised anywhere at all, only in a very superficial way. They may lose their jobs etc but they are replaced with someone who plays a slightly different tune on the same fiddle basically. The internet has just provided an opportunity for a greater scale of manipulation and misinformation and less focussed scrutiny. The only reason I voted against Brexit was not because of the virtues of the EU but because we are replacing one corruption with another at a great cost (how much so far?) with less regulation on standards and greater opportunities for corruption (look at the deals we are going to be signing with US concerning the deregulation of food standards. Cheaper food that is going cause more health problems, more pressure on the NHS which we all have to pay for etc , etc and a few individuals making millions if not billions on the back of it. There will not be any meaningful scrutiny of this. A few posts on the Oatcake and the odd article in the Guardian is not proper scrutiny imho...i.e it wont make one iota of difference. We don't need two levels of corruption then , two levels to scrutinise, one much more remote than the other and one which takes precedence over the other, and sovereignty. Boris is subject to the same conventions of parliamentary scrutiny as previous PMs , but today we have, in my opinion, a more nasty agenda driven press AND much greater opportunity for scrutiny provided by the Internet ( I agree the arguments on the Oatcake and the entrenched positions are pretty irrelevant and inconsequential but the influences and debates on multi media and social media have changed the whole political game( as the Internet has changed trade, communication etc.....my first sentence....we are in the age of instant and perpetual communication, we are all reporters, witnesses, able to offer opinions etc)). And the least scrutinised politicians are those of the EU....the title of this thread....most people in the UK did not know the names of their local MEP when were involvedin the project, not interested, let alone those in the Presidencies and positions of power.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 24, 2020 11:43:22 GMT
I think it is hard to get to the bottom of what Boris is all about, despite the " evidence" Things change quickly in politics. He might be seen as the PM who has stood strong against the onslaught on 3 fronts, standing up to the media, who think they run the show, the backlash and critics because of the handling of the pandemic, and Brexit There is no PM in history who has got such a soft ride as BJ with our Press. They are all over him for the main part. How many times are they going to use the headline "Cheers Boris!!" the headline that seems to greet his every move......which other PM was repeatedly known by their first name, cant remember any Cheers Theresa, David, Tony, Gordon headlines! Absolute no critical analysis of his cock ups unless you read the Guardian which most people don't. I don't know about any in history, but certainly the right-wing dominated press blows smoke up his arse on a regular basis. The Mail, to be fair, has had the odd critical front page but they have mainly been about the government as a whole rather than the Bluffer himself. As for the Telegraph and Express, all good pretty much! I realise the Express is little more than a comic for the elderly but my favourite headline from them during the whole debacle that has been the coronavirus handling by this government was "He's Only Gone and Done It" in response to Hancock fiddling the testing figures to get to his 100,000. Funny how he's barely managed it since and now refuses to publish the figures
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 24, 2020 11:57:25 GMT
Good job that we've left the EU , then our politicians will be more accountable...they won't be able to say that " we can't do anything about it , they've made the decisions"
Eg , the Agricultural policy, the trade policy, the fisheries policy.
And we will have more time for concentrated scrutiny.No distractions. That should satisfy the scrutineers.
Everybody's a winner.
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