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Post by mrcoke on Jun 12, 2020 10:17:18 GMT
Aye, it is difficult for some to come to terms with not getting what they want. 4 years after the referendum. Crack on. Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK? If I may but in and answer your last question, particularly in view of your flippant remark about shutting down the thread for 4 years, I believe it will take at least 20 years for the full effects of leaving the EU to work through our economy and government legislature. I fully expect a short term disruption (even without the pandemic) as commerce has to readjust, but I believe the benefits in the long term will be massive as I have repeatedly said 90% of future world growth will be outside the EU and the EU will continue to be run to protect German industry and French agriculture. Why so long? Because it takes time for the infrastructure of the country to change. For example, after we joined the EEC over the next 20 years the average distance for moving goods to Dover gradually reduced as manufacturing "moved" south. I do not mean factories actually relocated. What happened is northern factories closed and different new manufacturing started up in the south east and along the M4 corridor. This sort of change does not happen over night or in a few years but progressively over an extended period. I expect similar long term change will take place. Another example of long term change I expect is in food. I expect to open our borders to more cheaper food from around the world. We can set our own standards on what is acceptable as do for example the Australians. I don't mean just a return to New Zealand butter instead of Danish. I mean we will be able to help third world countries to grow their agriculture where at the moment the EU acts as barrier to food outside the EU by action such as quotas to protect EU farmers. This sort of change is going to take many years to evolve, but it is the right way to go for our country. (While I'm posting, please send me the link that says the French economy is larger than the UK's)
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 12:33:00 GMT
Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK? If I may but in and answer your last question, particularly in view of your flippant remark about shutting down the thread for 4 years, I believe it will take at least 20 years for the full effects of leaving the EU to work through our economy and government legislature. I fully expect a short term disruption (even without the pandemic) as commerce has to readjust, but I believe the benefits in the long term will be massive as I have repeatedly said 90% of future world growth will be outside the EU and the EU will continue to be run to protect German industry and French agriculture. Why so long? Because it takes time for the infrastructure of the country to change. For example, after we joined the EEC over the next 20 years the average distance for moving goods to Dover gradually reduced as manufacturing "moved" south. I do not mean factories actually relocated. What happened is northern factories closed and different new manufacturing started up in the south east and along the M4 corridor. This sort of change does not happen over night or in a few years but progressively over an extended period. I expect similar long term change will take place. Another example of long term change I expect is in food. I expect to open our borders to more cheaper food from around the world. We can set our own standards on what is acceptable as do for example the Australians. I don't mean just a return to New Zealand butter instead of Danish. I mean we will be able to help third world countries to grow their agriculture where at the moment the EU acts as barrier to food outside the EU by action such as quotas to protect EU farmers. This sort of change is going to take many years to evolve, but it is the right way to go for our country. (While I'm posting, please send me the link that says the French economy is larger than the UK's) OK, so 3 to 4 years from BJR, 20 years from yourself. Genuinely just interested to know at what point some analysis may be considered acceptable (ie not ridiculous) by pro-Brexiteers. Analysis on what was promised, what has been delivered and how it has worked out? I don't see why we need to abandon scrutiny until whatever time frame suits you, that seems a positively dangerous approach to any government policy to me, but I'm curious to know what works for you? Oh, and... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/france-britain-uk-world-s-fifth-largest-economy-brexit-eu-referendum-a7123761.htmlBut I'll give you that one, wikipedia seems to have it as a draw in terms of GDP at any rate...
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 12:44:40 GMT
Yes mine was a very specific reason to vote leave but tied up in the bigger sovereignty issue. Hundreds of pages back I detailed the technical issues about VAT on digital goods. Essentially EU law overrode UK law and made all businesses regardless of size charge and account for VAT on digital goods to EU customers. Thousands of small businesses either gave up or went to the wall. We're talking training organisations, suppliers of kids stories etc. here. Working from home off a kitchen table and taking years to get to the level of turnover (£85,000) that would normally require UK Vat registration. No matter the EU applied it regardless. On 1st May Rishi Sunak revoked it and made UK sales to EU customers of digital goods VAT free whether the EU like it or not or if agreed it. UK Sovereignty 1 EU Dictatorship 0 I couldn't care less about immigration. Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I've not looked into it in the depth you have, but doesn't the link below state that the EU had already made the changes Sunak brought in on 1 May? www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51832899
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 12, 2020 13:44:19 GMT
If I may but in and answer your last question, particularly in view of your flippant remark about shutting down the thread for 4 years, I believe it will take at least 20 years for the full effects of leaving the EU to work through our economy and government legislature. I fully expect a short term disruption (even without the pandemic) as commerce has to readjust, but I believe the benefits in the long term will be massive as I have repeatedly said 90% of future world growth will be outside the EU and the EU will continue to be run to protect German industry and French agriculture. Why so long? Because it takes time for the infrastructure of the country to change. For example, after we joined the EEC over the next 20 years the average distance for moving goods to Dover gradually reduced as manufacturing "moved" south. I do not mean factories actually relocated. What happened is northern factories closed and different new manufacturing started up in the south east and along the M4 corridor. This sort of change does not happen over night or in a few years but progressively over an extended period. I expect similar long term change will take place. Another example of long term change I expect is in food. I expect to open our borders to more cheaper food from around the world. We can set our own standards on what is acceptable as do for example the Australians. I don't mean just a return to New Zealand butter instead of Danish. I mean we will be able to help third world countries to grow their agriculture where at the moment the EU acts as barrier to food outside the EU by action such as quotas to protect EU farmers. This sort of change is going to take many years to evolve, but it is the right way to go for our country. (While I'm posting, please send me the link that says the French economy is larger than the UK's) OK, so 3 to 4 years from BJR, 20 years from yourself. Genuinely just interested to know at what point some analysis may be considered acceptable (ie not ridiculous) by pro-Brexiteers. Analysis on what was promised, what has been delivered and how it has worked out? I don't see why we need to abandon scrutiny until whatever time frame suits you, that seems a positively dangerous approach to any government policy to me, but I'm curious to know what works for you? Oh, and... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/france-britain-uk-world-s-fifth-largest-economy-brexit-eu-referendum-a7123761.htmlBut I'll give you that one, wikipedia seems to have it as a draw in terms of GDP at any rate... You do believe in instant results and facts don't you? That link is based purely on the value of the £ against the Euro on one day! "GDP is normally calculated over a year using average exchange rates, but if the rate for Wednesday is used France’s official GDP of 2.182 trillion euros would surpass Britain’s 2.172 trillion euros, Reuters reported."
Dear, dear, dear that really is clutching at straws to support an argument. I do not think there is a point in time to judge leaving the EU, especially now we have got a world pandemic. But even without that, the effect of leaving the EU is going to unwind over years and I have always said there is going to be an adverse bump in the economy in the short term while the economy goes through an adjustment phase. We will have to take some pain in the short term, but being out of the EU will benefit generations to come. There will, I expect be immediate shortages of some products and wails of anguish from pro-EU people. I remember when we joined int EU and the barriers were put in place on importing sugar cane from the West Indies and the WI found a better market in North America, we went through a sugar crisis like the recent toilet rolls one when the shop shelves were bare of sugar. But gradually we adjusted and grew more sugar beet, although there were EU restrictions on how much till two years ago. There will be an opportunity in the future to buy more sugar from all over the world helping poor countries instead of subsidising European farmers, but I expect it will take many seasons to develop. Provided future government continue to support British farmers there is a huge opportunity to produce more of our own food and import cheap food from around the world.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 12, 2020 13:55:30 GMT
Yes mine was a very specific reason to vote leave but tied up in the bigger sovereignty issue. Hundreds of pages back I detailed the technical issues about VAT on digital goods. Essentially EU law overrode UK law and made all businesses regardless of size charge and account for VAT on digital goods to EU customers. Thousands of small businesses either gave up or went to the wall. We're talking training organisations, suppliers of kids stories etc. here. Working from home off a kitchen table and taking years to get to the level of turnover (£85,000) that would normally require UK Vat registration. No matter the EU applied it regardless. On 1st May Rishi Sunak revoked it and made UK sales to EU customers of digital goods VAT free whether the EU like it or not or if agreed it. UK Sovereignty 1 EU Dictatorship 0 I couldn't care less about immigration. Good post. But I suspect there is a bitter pill. I do not know as a fact, but my experience with the Europe and working for the French is that a lot of European businesses will have totally ignored the legislation, unlike us Brits. And they get away with it because who does any auditing? www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/22/eu-states-fail-dragging-their-feet-over-financial-transparency-report-finds
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 12, 2020 14:25:27 GMT
Yes I'm sure there are some that voted purely on immigration But there were far more who voted on the sovereignty issue Not the case actually, as this research from Oxford Uni shows. csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Stated-Reasons-Fig-1.pngI think it's reasonable to question whether Leavers are getting what was promised them and what was central to their decision to vote Leave. Clearly that includes immigration... Well if we leave on wto rules Or we get the current deal the government wants no compromise at all Then I have got what I voted for
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 14:59:54 GMT
OK, so 3 to 4 years from BJR, 20 years from yourself. Genuinely just interested to know at what point some analysis may be considered acceptable (ie not ridiculous) by pro-Brexiteers. Analysis on what was promised, what has been delivered and how it has worked out? I don't see why we need to abandon scrutiny until whatever time frame suits you, that seems a positively dangerous approach to any government policy to me, but I'm curious to know what works for you? Oh, and... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/france-britain-uk-world-s-fifth-largest-economy-brexit-eu-referendum-a7123761.htmlBut I'll give you that one, wikipedia seems to have it as a draw in terms of GDP at any rate... You do believe in instant results and facts don't you? That link is based purely on the value of the £ against the Euro on one day! "GDP is normally calculated over a year using average exchange rates, but if the rate for Wednesday is used France’s official GDP of 2.182 trillion euros would surpass Britain’s 2.172 trillion euros, Reuters reported."
Dear, dear, dear that really is clutching at straws to support an argument. I do not think there is a point in time to judge leaving the EU, especially now we have got a world pandemic. But even without that, the effect of leaving the EU is going to unwind over years and I have always said there is going to be an adverse bump in the economy in the short term while the economy goes through an adjustment phase. We will have to take some pain in the short term, but being out of the EU will benefit generations to come. There will, I expect be immediate shortages of some products and wails of anguish from pro-EU people. I remember when we joined int EU and the barriers were put in place on importing sugar cane from the West Indies and the WI found a better market in North America, we went through a sugar crisis like the recent toilet rolls one when the shop shelves were bare of sugar. But gradually we adjusted and grew more sugar beet, although there were EU restrictions on how much till two years ago. There will be an opportunity in the future to buy more sugar from all over the world helping poor countries instead of subsidising European farmers, but I expect it will take many seasons to develop. Provided future government continue to support British farmers there is a huge opportunity to produce more of our own food and import cheap food from around the world. OK, happy to discount the link from the Independent. The wikipedia chart shows our economies are roughly equal, with ours growing more slowly than France's over the last few years. I guess it's just a question of time until they overtake us. I'm not crowing about that, for the record, just stating it. Perhaps they won't and we'll remain sixth? I'm happy to go with BJR's timescale in the first instance of 3 to 4 years until we see the effects, positive or otherwise, of leaving the EU. Do you think there's any benefit in holding up the promises of the Leave campaign to scrutiny in light of any deal we may or may not come up with?
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 12, 2020 16:26:32 GMT
You do believe in instant results and facts don't you? That link is based purely on the value of the £ against the Euro on one day! "GDP is normally calculated over a year using average exchange rates, but if the rate for Wednesday is used France’s official GDP of 2.182 trillion euros would surpass Britain’s 2.172 trillion euros, Reuters reported."
Dear, dear, dear that really is clutching at straws to support an argument. I do not think there is a point in time to judge leaving the EU, especially now we have got a world pandemic. But even without that, the effect of leaving the EU is going to unwind over years and I have always said there is going to be an adverse bump in the economy in the short term while the economy goes through an adjustment phase. We will have to take some pain in the short term, but being out of the EU will benefit generations to come. There will, I expect be immediate shortages of some products and wails of anguish from pro-EU people. I remember when we joined int EU and the barriers were put in place on importing sugar cane from the West Indies and the WI found a better market in North America, we went through a sugar crisis like the recent toilet rolls one when the shop shelves were bare of sugar. But gradually we adjusted and grew more sugar beet, although there were EU restrictions on how much till two years ago. There will be an opportunity in the future to buy more sugar from all over the world helping poor countries instead of subsidising European farmers, but I expect it will take many seasons to develop. Provided future government continue to support British farmers there is a huge opportunity to produce more of our own food and import cheap food from around the world. OK, happy to discount the link from the Independent. The wikipedia chart shows our economies are roughly equal, with ours growing more slowly than France's over the last few years. I guess it's just a question of time until they overtake us. I'm not crowing about that, for the record, just stating it. Perhaps they won't and we'll remain sixth? I'm happy to go with BJR's timescale in the first instance of 3 to 4 years until we see the effects, positive or otherwise, of leaving the EU. Do you think there's any benefit in holding up the promises of the Leave campaign to scrutiny in light of any deal we may or may not come up with? I think a lot of the economic forecasts of the for and against membership camps are now in the waste bin as the effect of the pandemic on the world economy will be far greater. I'm just happy we are out and will not get sucked into the economic mess of the southern Europe states whose loss of tourism is going to be devastating on them. I never live in anticipation of politicians delivering on promises. I happy to have a government that is accountable to the British people and can be removed by the electorate, even if only every 4 or 5 years. I am also uncomfortable with the European Court Of Human Rights. I think the UK's economy has been held back over the last 4 years by the politicians procrastination over Brexit. Everyone is in for some tough years ahead. The banking crisis lead to 10 years of tight budgets, who knows how long world governments will have to pay back debts. It was the USA that pulled the world out of world recession in the 1930s and after WWII. There is a lot of anti China feeling on this MB currently, but it may have to be China that pulls the world out of the pandemic recession.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 16:45:50 GMT
OK, happy to discount the link from the Independent. The wikipedia chart shows our economies are roughly equal, with ours growing more slowly than France's over the last few years. I guess it's just a question of time until they overtake us. I'm not crowing about that, for the record, just stating it. Perhaps they won't and we'll remain sixth? I'm happy to go with BJR's timescale in the first instance of 3 to 4 years until we see the effects, positive or otherwise, of leaving the EU. Do you think there's any benefit in holding up the promises of the Leave campaign to scrutiny in light of any deal we may or may not come up with? I think a lot of the economic forecasts of the for and against membership camps are now in the waste bin as the effect of the pandemic on the world economy will be far greater. I'm just happy we are out and will not get sucked into the economic mess of the southern Europe states whose loss of tourism is going to be devastating on them. I never live in anticipation of politicians delivering on promises. I happy to have a government that is accountable to the British people and can be removed by the electorate, even if only every 4 or 5 years. I am also uncomfortable with the European Court Of Human Rights. I think the UK's economy has been held back over the last 4 years by the politicians procrastination over Brexit. Everyone is in for some tough years ahead. The banking crisis lead to 10 years of tight budgets, who knows how long world governments will have to pay back debts. It was the USA that pulled the world out of world recession in the 1930s and after WWII. There is a lot of anti China feeling on this MB currently, but it may have to be China that pulls the world out of the pandemic recession. Some very good points there. I look forward to discussing with you the future direction of travel around the Brexit deal, if there is one, and its ramifications for the UK. I think there will be lots of impacts: immediate, medium and long term, economic and social. I certainly won't be avoiding any scrutiny of what was promised and what is to be delivered and I'd encourage everyone to take that approach. Leaders need to be held to account.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 16:46:43 GMT
You do believe in instant results and facts don't you? That link is based purely on the value of the £ against the Euro on one day! "GDP is normally calculated over a year using average exchange rates, but if the rate for Wednesday is used France’s official GDP of 2.182 trillion euros would surpass Britain’s 2.172 trillion euros, Reuters reported."
Dear, dear, dear that really is clutching at straws to support an argument. I do not think there is a point in time to judge leaving the EU, especially now we have got a world pandemic. But even without that, the effect of leaving the EU is going to unwind over years and I have always said there is going to be an adverse bump in the economy in the short term while the economy goes through an adjustment phase. We will have to take some pain in the short term, but being out of the EU will benefit generations to come. There will, I expect be immediate shortages of some products and wails of anguish from pro-EU people. I remember when we joined int EU and the barriers were put in place on importing sugar cane from the West Indies and the WI found a better market in North America, we went through a sugar crisis like the recent toilet rolls one when the shop shelves were bare of sugar. But gradually we adjusted and grew more sugar beet, although there were EU restrictions on how much till two years ago. There will be an opportunity in the future to buy more sugar from all over the world helping poor countries instead of subsidising European farmers, but I expect it will take many seasons to develop. Provided future government continue to support British farmers there is a huge opportunity to produce more of our own food and import cheap food from around the world. OK, happy to discount the link from the Independent. The wikipedia chart shows our economies are roughly equal, with ours growing more slowly than France's over the last few years. I guess it's just a question of time until they overtake us. I'm not crowing about that, for the record, just stating it. Perhaps they won't and we'll remain sixth? I'm happy to go with BJR's timescale in the first instance of 3 to 4 years until we see the effects, positive or otherwise, of leaving the EU. Do you think there's any benefit in holding up the promises of the Leave campaign to scrutiny in light of any deal we may or may not come up with? I realise that you wanted to Remain Red, which is fair enough, but the decision was to leave.....i want to add this. Obviously, as all of us, I only speak for myself , not Leavers in general. My main point in leaving , in 4 years time , to judge if Brexit has been a succes , the measure I use will be the extent to which the UK government has control over its own affairs, NOT the rate of immigration.....the whole point being that if I or you or anyone else isn't happy with any of the government's policies at least I have a connection with that government and I can make my point known, I know where the decision makers are and who is making the decisions.. and I want those decisions to be made without any reference whatsoever to the EU or any other non elected bureaucracy that is on a different mission from the one I believe in....ever closer union ( it's clear..it's in the treaties). If someone is not happy with immigration or the education policy or the taxation policy or the agricultural policy they can use the uk peaceful democratic system to get their voice heard and try to influence change. Tony Benn said something similar. It may not be ideal and I may not get what I want, I may feel frustrated and the fight for democracy will still continue in 4 years time, each generation has to continue the fight. It's not a once and for all thing. Tony Benn said that as well. You seem to me to be fighting the wrong battle, somehow intent proving that Brexit must have been the wrong decision. For me you do illustrate a problem for the left, I don't think that they will gain power until they clearly come to terms with Brexit...it may well be that their traditional core supporters would prefer " rule" from Westminster rather than " rule" from Brussels.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 16:50:45 GMT
I think a lot of the economic forecasts of the for and against membership camps are now in the waste bin as the effect of the pandemic on the world economy will be far greater. I'm just happy we are out and will not get sucked into the economic mess of the southern Europe states whose loss of tourism is going to be devastating on them. I never live in anticipation of politicians delivering on promises. I happy to have a government that is accountable to the British people and can be removed by the electorate, even if only every 4 or 5 years. I am also uncomfortable with the European Court Of Human Rights. I think the UK's economy has been held back over the last 4 years by the politicians procrastination over Brexit. Everyone is in for some tough years ahead. The banking crisis lead to 10 years of tight budgets, who knows how long world governments will have to pay back debts. It was the USA that pulled the world out of world recession in the 1930s and after WWII. There is a lot of anti China feeling on this MB currently, but it may have to be China that pulls the world out of the pandemic recession. Some very good points there. I look forward to discussing with you the future direction of travel around the Brexit deal, if there is one, and its ramifications for the UK. I think there will be lots of impacts: immediate, medium and long term, economic and social. I certainly won't be avoiding any scrutiny of what was promised and what is to be delivered and I'd encourage everyone to take that approach. Leaders need to be held to account. You've hit the nail on the head Red, with your last sentence. The EU leaders are NOT held to account by our electorate. That is the whole point. Jeremy Corbyn said that.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Jun 12, 2020 17:16:55 GMT
Yes mine was a very specific reason to vote leave but tied up in the bigger sovereignty issue. Hundreds of pages back I detailed the technical issues about VAT on digital goods. Essentially EU law overrode UK law and made all businesses regardless of size charge and account for VAT on digital goods to EU customers. Thousands of small businesses either gave up or went to the wall. We're talking training organisations, suppliers of kids stories etc. here. Working from home off a kitchen table and taking years to get to the level of turnover (£85,000) that would normally require UK Vat registration. No matter the EU applied it regardless. On 1st May Rishi Sunak revoked it and made UK sales to EU customers of digital goods VAT free whether the EU like it or not or if agreed it. UK Sovereignty 1 EU Dictatorship 0 I couldn't care less about immigration. Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I've not looked into it in the depth you have, but doesn't the link below state that the EU had already made the changes Sunak brought in on 1 May? www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51832899No mate. The EU allowed the lower rate of VAT (on a voluntary nation by nation basis) as applied to physical books, so for example Germany reduced it's rate to 7%. Which meant a UK seller to a German national had to charge 7%. But Poland didn't so were charged 23%, their full rate. The word drop in the article is disingenuous, read lower not abolish. Whether dropped was used to misdirect or poor journalism I'll let you decide. Voluntary country rates just made a bad situation worse to be honest The UK ditched it all unilaterally on 1st May rather than wait until 1 Dec. Regardless it was imposed EU wide on 1.1.2015 overriding UK statute law.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 12, 2020 20:21:21 GMT
OK, happy to discount the link from the Independent. The wikipedia chart shows our economies are roughly equal, with ours growing more slowly than France's over the last few years. I guess it's just a question of time until they overtake us. I'm not crowing about that, for the record, just stating it. Perhaps they won't and we'll remain sixth? I'm happy to go with BJR's timescale in the first instance of 3 to 4 years until we see the effects, positive or otherwise, of leaving the EU. Do you think there's any benefit in holding up the promises of the Leave campaign to scrutiny in light of any deal we may or may not come up with? I realise that you wanted to Remain Red, which is fair enough, but the decision was to leave.....i want to add this. Obviously, as all of us, I only speak for myself , not Leavers in general. My main point in leaving , in 4 years time , to judge if Brexit has been a succes , the measure I use will be the extent to which the UK government has control over its own affairs, NOT the rate of immigration.....the whole point being that if I or you or anyone else isn't happy with any of the government's policies at least I have a connection with that government and I can make my point known, I know where the decision makers are and who is making the decisions.. and I want those decisions to be made without any reference whatsoever to the EU or any other non elected bureaucracy that is on a different mission from the one I believe in....ever closer union ( it's clear..it's in the treaties). If someone is not happy with immigration or the education policy or the taxation policy or the agricultural policy they can use the uk peaceful democratic system to get their voice heard and try to influence change. Tony Benn said something similar. It may not be ideal and I may not get what I want, I may feel frustrated and the fight for democracy will still continue in 4 years time, each generation has to continue the fight. It's not a once and for all thing. Tony Benn said that as well. You seem to me to be fighting the wrong battle, somehow intent proving that Brexit must have been the wrong decision. For me you do illustrate a problem for the left, I don't think that they will gain power until they clearly come to terms with Brexit...it may well be that their traditional core supporters would prefer " rule" from Westminster rather than " rule" from Brussels. You appear to want to close down the debate even before we can see what the government has negotiated? Parallel to the EU trade talks we have the USA trade talks. It appears a tariff of 10% has been mooted to protect British farmers. If that brings the price into line with British prices there will be no cheap American food here? Furthermore, the Americans want no labelling so British housewives won’t know they’re buying chlorinated chicken or hormonal injected beef? If such a deal is negotiated do you expect our 80 seat Tory majority in our newly supercharged sovereign parliament will vote it down? So, you say throw the rascals out at the next ge but you’re still left with the trade deal? Parliament cannot unilaterally alter bits as it is between two countries! Ditto any trade deal with the EU! This parliamentary sovereignty is an allusion. Indeed much of Westminster’s sovereignty has been devolved to the devolved parliament/assembly of the three nations? More so than was ever lost to the EU!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 20:55:23 GMT
I realise that you wanted to Remain Red, which is fair enough, but the decision was to leave.....i want to add this. Obviously, as all of us, I only speak for myself , not Leavers in general. My main point in leaving , in 4 years time , to judge if Brexit has been a succes , the measure I use will be the extent to which the UK government has control over its own affairs, NOT the rate of immigration.....the whole point being that if I or you or anyone else isn't happy with any of the government's policies at least I have a connection with that government and I can make my point known, I know where the decision makers are and who is making the decisions.. and I want those decisions to be made without any reference whatsoever to the EU or any other non elected bureaucracy that is on a different mission from the one I believe in....ever closer union ( it's clear..it's in the treaties). If someone is not happy with immigration or the education policy or the taxation policy or the agricultural policy they can use the uk peaceful democratic system to get their voice heard and try to influence change. Tony Benn said something similar. It may not be ideal and I may not get what I want, I may feel frustrated and the fight for democracy will still continue in 4 years time, each generation has to continue the fight. It's not a once and for all thing. Tony Benn said that as well. You seem to me to be fighting the wrong battle, somehow intent proving that Brexit must have been the wrong decision. For me you do illustrate a problem for the left, I don't think that they will gain power until they clearly come to terms with Brexit...it may well be that their traditional core supporters would prefer " rule" from Westminster rather than " rule" from Brussels. You appear to want to close down the debate even before we can see what the government has negotiated? Parallel to the EU trade talks we have the USA trade talks. It appears a tariff of 10% has been mooted to protect British farmers. If that brings the price into line with British prices there will be no cheap American food here? Furthermore, the Americans want no labelling so British housewives won’t know they’re buying chlorinated chicken or hormonal injected beef? If such a deal is negotiated do you expect our 80 seat Tory majority in our newly supercharged sovereign parliament will vote it down? So, you say throw the rascals out at the next ge but you’re still left with the trade deal? Parliament cannot unilaterally alter bits as it is between two countries! Ditto any trade deal with the EU! This parliamentary sovereignty is an allusion. Indeed much of Westminster’s sovereignty has been devolved to the devolved parliament/assembly of the three nations? More so than was ever lost to the EU! I've no problem with the UK devolving power if that's what the constituent parts want. In fact I'm tempted by the idea of an English parliament. As an independent sovereign country the elected government should indeed be negotiating our relationship with other countries...that's what all modern independent democratic sovereign countries do. Much better than allowing the undemocratic EU to make decisions not in our interest. Are you concerned about the lack of accountability and scrutiny in the EU? In any case we had a referendum and decided to leave, for better or for worse , whether you think it is a good idea or not. I'm not shutting anything down , you can say what you want and have done so. I'm just giving my opinion, in this case in answer to a question as to when and by what criteria I would judge the success of Brexit. Some people have already decided it isn't a success, and we are only in the transition period. Funny that.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 12, 2020 21:23:54 GMT
You appear to want to close down the debate even before we can see what the government has negotiated? Parallel to the EU trade talks we have the USA trade talks. It appears a tariff of 10% has been mooted to protect British farmers. If that brings the price into line with British prices there will be no cheap American food here? Furthermore, the Americans want no labelling so British housewives won’t know they’re buying chlorinated chicken or hormonal injected beef? If such a deal is negotiated do you expect our 80 seat Tory majority in our newly supercharged sovereign parliament will vote it down? So, you say throw the rascals out at the next ge but you’re still left with the trade deal? Parliament cannot unilaterally alter bits as it is between two countries! Ditto any trade deal with the EU! This parliamentary sovereignty is an allusion. Indeed much of Westminster’s sovereignty has been devolved to the devolved parliament/assembly of the three nations? More so than was ever lost to the EU! I've no problem with the UK devolving power if that's what the constituent parts want. In fact I'm tempted by the idea of an English parliament. As an independent sovereign country the elected government should indeed be negotiating our relationship with other countries...that's what all modern independent democratic sovereign countries do. Much better than allowing the undemocratic EU to make decisions not in our interest. Are you concerned about the lack of accountability and scrutiny in the EU? In any case we had a referendum and decided to leave, for better or for worse , whether you think it is a good idea or not. I'm not shutting anything down , you can say what you want and have done so. I'm just giving my opinion, in this case in answer to a question as to when and by what criteria I would judge the success of Brexit. Some people have already decided it isn't a success, and we are only in the transition period. Funny that. The government has been rolling over some of the trade deals the wicked, bureaucratic EU negotiated on our behalf! I did some quick, legal and constitutional research after you posted. It appears most legal, constitutional experts found little to support your belief that parliamentary sovereignty had been eroded? Indeed, many thought the use of referenda to decide complex issues was a serious threat to representative democracy. I think the Coalition government tasked each government department to find examples of erosion of parliamentary sovereignty and they found very little?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 21:35:52 GMT
I've no problem with the UK devolving power if that's what the constituent parts want. In fact I'm tempted by the idea of an English parliament. As an independent sovereign country the elected government should indeed be negotiating our relationship with other countries...that's what all modern independent democratic sovereign countries do. Much better than allowing the undemocratic EU to make decisions not in our interest. Are you concerned about the lack of accountability and scrutiny in the EU? In any case we had a referendum and decided to leave, for better or for worse , whether you think it is a good idea or not. I'm not shutting anything down , you can say what you want and have done so. I'm just giving my opinion, in this case in answer to a question as to when and by what criteria I would judge the success of Brexit. Some people have already decided it isn't a success, and we are only in the transition period. Funny that. The government has been rolling over some of the trade deals the wicked, bureaucratic EU negotiated on our behalf! I did some quick, legal and constitutional research after you posted. It appears most legal, constitutional experts found little to support your belief that parliamentary sovereignty had been eroded? Indeed, many thought the use of referenda to decide complex issues was a serious threat to representative democracy. I think the Coalition government tasked each government department to find examples of erosion of parliamentary sovereignty and they found very little? I think we've had that debate Nick. Have a look back from about page 28. We've now left.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 22:16:13 GMT
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 12, 2020 23:00:40 GMT
Of course it is similar, foreign workers bought in, shite work conditions, shite living conditions, shite pay, next to no rights, gangmaster/agency used to control the workers and take the blame, exploitation, etc. Come on explain my obsession with foreigners,??? You are one of the ones mentioning immigration on this thread. Typical deflection by you, which you are not very good at. It isn't similar. If you read the article there is a massive involvement of threats involved in Spain, illegal immigrants are used against their will ( slavery?), a masdive environmental impact, compulsion to work , a massive degree of difference in living conditions. I've only mentioned immigration in response to you or as one aspect of Brexit when necessaryto do so....It's not particularlya big issue for me in itself...WHO controls immigrationand illegal immigration is...it is all that you and some remainers bring it back to. Of course it similar Still no proof. And I am not a remainer. You must be a retired cop, ?? Typical dribble by a dibble
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 13, 2020 6:58:41 GMT
I think there's little point with BJR, gents.
You get some points made, then straw man arguments deflecting away from the original points made in the post or just shutting it down completely with the catchall "We've left". Currently, these are ever shifting goalposts to make it easier to accept the eventual outcome, which now seems to have boiled down to one thing: sovereignty at any cost, moving away from the previously stated position of looking at how Brexit has panned out as a whole and whether Leavers got what they were promised in 3 or 4 years time.
I realise that sounds like the usual ad hominem approach so common on here, it's not meant to be, just expressing the frustration in trying to discuss anything with him.
Clayts and Coke will actually stick to the point and you can have sensible discussions with them.
In summary, of course he wants to close down the debate, remove scrutiny and get us all to accept everything and move on. A lot was promised by those promising a glorious new dawn for the UK, much more than just sovereignty at any cost. That needs to be held up to account.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 13, 2020 7:05:47 GMT
It isn't similar. If you read the article there is a massive involvement of threats involved in Spain, illegal immigrants are used against their will ( slavery?), a masdive environmental impact, compulsion to work , a massive degree of difference in living conditions. I've only mentioned immigration in response to you or as one aspect of Brexit when necessaryto do so....It's not particularlya big issue for me in itself...WHO controls immigrationand illegal immigration is...it is all that you and some remainers bring it back to. Of course it similar Still no proof. And I am not a remainer. You must be a retired cop, ?? Typical dribble by a dibble I didn't say that you are a Remainer. I must say you and many on the left do make many arguments childish and personal ( see previous post by Red). Defending the EU to the hilt , irrespective of the issue, weakens any argument. I'll leave it with you. .............. ( it speaks for itself doesn't it..... from the link...............) www.ecowatch.com/europes-dirty-little-secret-moroccan-slaves-and-a-sea-of-plastic-1882131257.html?xrs=RebelMouse_fb#27c7d 2011, a news report in The Guardian said that more than 100,000 workers toil away inside the greenhouses, many living in “inhuman" slums and laboring in the chemical stew. The report noted: “Migrant workers from Africa living in shacks made of old boxes and plastic sheeting, without sanitation or access to drinking water. Wages that are routinely less than half the legal minimum wage. Workers without papers being told they will be reported to the police if they complain. Allegations of segregation enforced by police harassment when African workers stray outside the hothouse areas into tourist areas." A 2013 documentary film, The Morrocan Slaves of El Ejido, Spain (Esclave marocain a El Ejido, Espagne), chronicled the plight of the migrant workers toiling inside the hot greenhouses as well as their difficult lives outside of work. In 2014, amidst a large controversy, a Spanish TV station created a fictional crime drama, Plastic Sea (Mar de Plastico), that highlighted much of the crime, labor and environmental chaos surrounding the greenhouse farms. Read pag 20Art iA NaturPhilosophie noted that, in addition to the massive human rights problems, the area is plagued with depleted aquifers, the largest desalination plant in Europe to keep water flowing into the greenhouses, and rising cancer rates due to pesticide exposure among workers. Waste from the “farms" is reported to run off into the Mediterranean Sea, including the chemical waste, plastic waste and human waste of the workers. Entire industries have popped up in the area simply to make the massive amount of plastic for the greenhouses which has a short lifespan and is sometimes discarded, strewn across the landscape or washed into the sea. Some observers call it a $1 billion “miracle economy," while others call it the “exploitation of cheap labor with no rights" and “environmental devastation." The swath of greenhouses is massive enough to be seen from space and has been described as a “Dystopian The area is so large that it actually creates its own “albedo effect" because it reflects the sun's rays and cools the atmosphere. Scientists claim that local temperatures have actually decreased by 1 degree since 1980, while other areas of Spain have increased by 1 to 3 degrees over the same time period. All of the negative publicity has caused the greenhouse corporations, as well as the local governments, to combat the tide of news stories with greenwashed news releases (like this video) that, among other things, even brag about the albedo effect by saying that the greenhouses serve a public good by cooling the climate on the Southern Iberian Peninsula. The controversy continues to escalate month-by-month as the number of greenhouses increase and stretch farther and farther up and down the coastline. As we drove through and beyond El Ejido, the greenhouses continued to stretch along the road in La Rabita and Carchuna. Finally, in the tourist area of Nerja, we could see no more greenhouses—from the road at least—and a sense of relief set in. The drive was very unsettling, causing a tightness in our chests and cringe on our faces—the continual glare of the white and the smell of plastic and chemicals gave us headaches that we tried to wash away with long gulps of bottled water.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 13, 2020 7:12:19 GMT
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I've not looked into it in the depth you have, but doesn't the link below state that the EU had already made the changes Sunak brought in on 1 May? www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51832899No mate. The EU allowed the lower rate of VAT (on a voluntary nation by nation basis) as applied to physical books, so for example Germany reduced it's rate to 7%. Which meant a UK seller to a German national had to charge 7%. But Poland didn't so were charged 23%, their full rate. The word drop in the article is disingenuous, read lower not abolish. Whether dropped was used to misdirect or poor journalism I'll let you decide. Voluntary country rates just made a bad situation worse to be honest The UK ditched it all unilaterally on 1st May rather than wait until 1 Dec. Regardless it was imposed EU wide on 1.1.2015 overriding UK statute law. Thanks
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 13, 2020 7:17:27 GMT
Not very humane
An interesting video from the Guardian
A quote from the Guardian video" It's slavery in Europe ".....Black Lives Matter....an issue for TODAY.
It has certainly made me think about how we buy our food.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 13, 2020 7:32:10 GMT
Classic straw man...
"Defending the EU to the hilt, irrespective of the issue, weakens any argument"...
Nobody was!!
They may have been disagreeing with the points you'd raised, but that's not the same thing!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 13, 2020 7:34:29 GMT
Classic straw man... "Defending the EU to the hilt, irrespective of the issue, weakens any argument"... Nobody was!! That's good news then. Keep your hair on. ( A whole post about Me, I'm flattered....in fact two!)
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 13, 2020 10:31:29 GMT
Actually, untrue! There will be a phased withdrawal in stages until July 2021! The government is giving the impression that transition ends in December 2020 whilst delaying full withdrawal beyond that period! Presumably, to spread the dislocation over several months thereby reducing the impact?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 13, 2020 10:54:54 GMT
Actually, untrue! There will be a phased withdrawal in stages until July 2021! The government is giving the impression that transition ends in December 2020 whilst delaying full withdrawal beyond that period! Presumably, to spread the dislocation over several months thereby reducing the impact? We'll see. Our relationship with the EU will develop over time. Even if we leave with "NO deal" ( wto really) we can still negotiate " deals", " arrangements", across different sectors....it might depend upon how much the EU want to respect the UK as an independent nation eg in the way they treat Canada or Australia. If Remainers had accepted democracy from the outset we could have been much further along the road and been able to give our energies in another direction. Anyway let's see what transpires.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 13, 2020 11:05:02 GMT
Actually, untrue! There will be a phased withdrawal in stages until July 2021! The government is giving the impression that transition ends in December 2020 whilst delaying full withdrawal beyond that period! Presumably, to spread the dislocation over several months thereby reducing the impact? We'll see. Our relationship with the EU will develop over time. Even if we leave with "Nk deal" ( wto really) we can still negotiate " deals", " arrangements", across different sectors....it might depend upon how much the EU want to respect the UK as an independent nation eg in the way they treat Canada or Australia. If Remainers had accepted democracy from the outset we could have been much further along the road and been able to give our energies in another direction. Anyway let's see what transpires. The phased withdrawal between the two parties has just been agreed! Haulage bodies have praised this as a means of spreading the impact! As for Australia? Australia unlike Canada has no trade deal with the EU so the two countries are in entirely different categories!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 13, 2020 11:12:01 GMT
We'll see. Our relationship with the EU will develop over time. Even if we leave with "Nk deal" ( wto really) we can still negotiate " deals", " arrangements", across different sectors....it might depend upon how much the EU want to respect the UK as an independent nation eg in the way they treat Canada or Australia. If Remainers had accepted democracy from the outset we could have been much further along the road and been able to give our energies in another direction. Anyway let's see what transpires. The phased withdrawal between the two parties has just been agreed! Haulage bodies have praised this as a means of spreading the impact! As for Australia? Australia unlike Canada has no trade deal with the EU so the two countries are in entirely different categories! Good. They are in two " categories" They are two " countries" though and each trades with Germany , France, the UK , Italy etc
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Jun 13, 2020 12:29:47 GMT
The phased withdrawal between the two parties has just been agreed! Haulage bodies have praised this as a means of spreading the impact! As for Australia? Australia unlike Canada has no trade deal with the EU so the two countries are in entirely different categories! Good. They are in two " categories" They are two " countries" though and each trades with Germany , France, the UK , Italy etc But Canada has recently negotiated a trade deal and Australia would like to start negotiating one? We do have some Brexiters who want only WTO trade? That would put us into an unique position of not having a trade deal and not wanting one! Of course trade deals relate to trade only and not services! As a major service goods exporter it’s not a great help?
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 13, 2020 12:43:03 GMT
Good. They are in two " categories" They are two " countries" though and each trades with Germany , France, the UK , Italy etc But Canada has recently negotiated a trade deal and Australia would like to start negotiating one? We do have some Brexiters who want only WTO trade? That would put us into an unique position of not having a trade deal and not wanting one! Of course trade deals relate to trade only and not services! As a major service goods exporter it’s not a great help? This is how I see it as a leave voter Id be happy to see a deal as long as the European courts have no jurisdiction We decide who fishes in our waters and how much they are allowed to catch We decide what standards and what state intervention we wish If not then I will except WTO terms as that would allow us the pretty much the above Anything else is abject surrender
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