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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 11, 2020 17:01:42 GMT
An alternative view www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/473bd2ae-4ee5-11e9-b401-8d9ef1626294 Financial Times SIGN IN Brexit The Brexit delusion of taking back control The UK is a large minnow, but still a minnow, in a very big lake Sheep Wheel March 26, 2019 4:15 pm by Martin Wolf From Beijing, where I now am, the UK looks small. It also looks as if it has fallen into the hands of lunatics engaged in an astonishing act of national self-harm. But this, Brexiters will say, is an illusion. The UK is going to “take back control”. The slogan was brilliant. But it was the biggest delusion of all. Control is different from sovereignty. As I argued during the referendum campaign, the UK was already sovereign: it could, if it wished, vote to leave the EU. It did so, but promptly discovered that, while it was sovereign, it was not very powerful. Yet control is about power. In the post-referendum negotiations with the EU it has turned out, as informed people knew it would, that the EU was more powerful than the UK. This was so for a simple reason: it could impose far heavier penalties on the UK than the UK could on the EU. Britain sends 47 per cent of its exports of goods to the EU, while the rest of the EU sends 15 per cent of its exports to the UK. For the EU, the UK market is important. For the UK, the EU’s is vital. Welcome to the harsh world of international relations. We have been frequently reminded that the UK is the fifth (soon to be sixth) largest economy. That is true, but misleading. The world contains three economic superpowers: the US, the EU (without the UK) and China. These generated about 60 per cent of global output last year. The UK’s contribution was 3 per cent. It is large for a minnow, but still a minnow. So what might “control” mean for a small island country about to separate itself from its neighbours and closest economic partners? In some areas, it will be able to exercise control. But these are where it has always been able to do so. The UK’s net contribution to the EU was just 1.1 per cent of total public spending in the latest financial year. The EU has no significant influence over the UK’s spending on (or policies towards) health, education, housing, pensions, welfare, infrastructure, culture or, for that matter, defence and aid. In one rather intimate domestic area the UK does risk losing control: its own survival. The futures of Northern Ireland and Scotland within the UK have both been destabilised by Brexit. So where might Britain gain the control it now lacks? Obvious examples are those economic regulations that have fallen within the ambit of the EU’s competition policy, rules on state aid and the bloc’s single market. It is correct that if the UK left the EU completely, it could abandon an active competition policy and waste large amounts of money in propping up failed companies. Why it should view either as attractive is a mystery. The UK has largely unbridled control over its domestic affairs, for good or (too often) for ill. But it is an open, trading nation and, given its size and limited resources, has no future as anything else. It is a modest power in a big world: 2019 is not 1860. It depends on the behaviour of other sovereign countries. The EU has significantly increased the influence of Britain in a host of negotiations, notably over trade and climate. That will be gone. So, too, will influence over the EU’s policies towards the UK, as the withdrawal negotiations have already shown. But, we are told, the country can open up markets all over the world, to compensate for the loss of favourable access to the market of 450m people on its doorstep. Unfortunately, that would not be true even if the rest of the world were to be obliging, because the EU markets are so crucial for the UK. Moreover, the rest of the world is not going to be obliging. The US is in the process of demolishing the World Trade Organization, on which Britain will rely. In any bilateral bargaining with the US, the latter is going to impose very hard terms, the most distasteful of which are likely to relate to food standards and health. China is going to insist on the UK’s acceptance of its terms — as, by the way, is protectionist India. The old Commonwealth of Australia, Canada and New Zealand may be friendly, but these 65m people are neither here nor there for the UK, economically. In brief, outside the EU, the UK will not have greater control over its global environment. It will be on its own, and at the mercy of others, some far more potent than it is. Nor is this all. Trade agreements are increasingly about regulatory standards, because these are ever more important domestically in all significant countries. If the UK wishes to trade freely with the EU, it will have to adopt EU standards, as it has done as a member. But the same will apply to trade with other countries, notably in the case of the US. But what is to be done when, as over data protection or food, standards clash? This is not so important for manufacturing, which can produce to different standards. But it does matter for services, data handling and food, where how things are done is crucial. In the end, the UK will often have to align itself with the standards of one of the blocs — usually, I predict, the EU’s. There is something far bigger still. Since 2016, the challenges to liberal and democratic values have become far clearer. As Sigmar Gabriel, former German foreign minister, argues in a column for Project Syndicate, this is a dangerous and disheartening environment for the EU. But so, too, for the UK. Quite simply, the saga we are seeing unfold is a true tragedy. The UK has chosen a solitary path. But the EU should also reconsider. After all, as Mr Gabriel notes, even in Germany the view of immigration has changed somewhat. It is not too late to halt an act of such folly. The UK will not gain control in any important respect by leaving the EU. On the contrary, it is more likely to lose it. In this increasingly hostile world, we Europeans need to stick together. It is time for sensible people to try to think again. martin.wolf@ft.com The article is a point of view I strongly held for the first two decades of our membership, but progressively turned against. Why is it so called Europeans believe they need to stick together, talk about "little Britain" on it's own, and believe economies smaller than the UK like quote "Canada, Australia, and New Zealand" are quote "at the mercy of others"? Does Wolf believe we are going to lose our exports to the EU? The major EU economies largely buy their own products, generally being far more loyal and patriotic to their own commerce. They generally only buy British products they really want and need. I believe that will continue. As Wolf admits, attitudes are changing in the EU, immigration being just one. Southern states are kicking against the Euro, eastern states are kicking against central authoritarian control. Soon countries that have enjoy huge regional aid in the past like Spain and Ireland are going to find they are net financial contributers and EU membership will hit their pockets as regional aid and CAP money is reduced. The EU is playing hard ball with the UK because they know the EU will fall apart without Britain's membership. You cannot lightly dismiss a country of 66 million, with a modern economy that is the 6th biggest in the world. No longer 5th because we have been overtaken by India with a massive population and rapidly growing economy that will be crying out for the sort of products and services the UK can provide, (Believe me, not Wolf, I have worked in India for Tata.) Meanwhile apart from Germany the EU economy is largely stagnant with many states having massive unemployment, particularly among the young who need to travel to Germany, France, and Britain to get work. Ireland joined the EU because the UK joined. They have done exceedingly well out of it and are currently committed to remaining in (as would Scotland). But with the UK out, their main trading partners being the USA and UK, most of their exports to the EU travelling to Europe via the UK, and their net financial contribution increasing, the growth markets being outside the EU, I confidently predict it will not be many years before there will be a strong movement to leave. I've seen a lot of people confidently predicting the EU will fall apart without the UK. Since June 24 2016 in fact. But there it still is, weathering sovereign debt crises in southern Europe, immigration issues and now Covid-19. And on it goes, evolving as it always has done since some form of alliance was first made almost 70 years ago. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking on many Leavers' part - hopeful that it all comes crashing down, in much the same way that they convince themselves that a bloc with 27 members (and growing), an annual budget of 148bn and GDP of close to 20tn is somehow beholden to one country with a GDP of 2tn and an economy that is slowly slipping down the rankings, having been superseded by France recently. You're a businessman Mr Coke, you'll know full well that the corner shop doesn't often get to outdo the supermarket chain! I don't doubt that the UK will be missed, not least for its financial contributions. So the EU will presumably have to cut its cloth accordingly and move on. But let's not kid ourselves that this isn't going to be more damaging for the UK in the long term. For many Leavers that might be perfectly acceptable. It's really more a case of whether people are happy enough with that outcome provided their sovereignty is sacrosanct. And immigration reduces.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 11, 2020 17:03:34 GMT
Thanks, John, always good to see what we've been promised and how it all pans out in relation to those promises, I agree. Aye, it is difficult for some to come to terms with not getting what they want. 4 years after the referendum. Crack on. Thanks John I intend to. I'm sure you'd agree that it'd be a sad day when we all just meekly swallow whatever guff our leaders tell us without daring to challenge it or hold it up to scrutiny years down the line. Heaven forbid that we should all be questioning the legitimacy of the crap that went into the Iraq war justification. 2009 Chilcot started, six years later - crack on indeed!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 11, 2020 17:10:02 GMT
Aye, it is difficult for some to come to terms with not getting what they want. 4 years after the referendum. Crack on. Thanks John I intend to. I'm sure you'd agree that it'd be a sad day when we all just meekly swallow whatever guff our leaders tell us without daring to challenge it or hold it up to scrutiny years down the line. Heaven forbid that we should all be questioning the legitimacy of the crap that went into the Iraq war justification. 2009 Chilcot started, six years later - crack on indeed! Clearly you will never come to terms with not getting what you want. Its funny really....and a good example of a certain current mindset....but some do seem to be coming to terms with it better than others Life's too short. Crack on.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 11, 2020 17:34:26 GMT
Thanks John I intend to. I'm sure you'd agree that it'd be a sad day when we all just meekly swallow whatever guff our leaders tell us without daring to challenge it or hold it up to scrutiny years down the line. Heaven forbid that we should all be questioning the legitimacy of the crap that went into the Iraq war justification. 2009 Chilcot started, six years later - crack on indeed! Clearly you will never come to terms with not getting what you want. Its funny really....and a good example of a certain current mindset....but some do seem to be coming to terms with it better than others Life's too short. Crack on. You're not wrong on life being too short, John, as 3,000 posts to 13,000 would tend to indicate...ahh.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jun 11, 2020 17:36:29 GMT
I put it on the thread because I knew someone would say "it doesn't mention Brexit in the article". This set me up for the tap-in that, of course, every article mentioned Brexit when Unilever were going to be leaving the UK. The shareholders told them where to stick it and they're the ones who count. The FTSE100 is still where the action is. I see, so your point was about inaccurate reporting? To want to stick an article which didn't mention Brexit on a Brexit thread to highlight biased reporting? I'm sorry. I don't like getting played either.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 11, 2020 17:36:45 GMT
The article is a point of view I strongly held for the first two decades of our membership, but progressively turned against. Why is it so called Europeans believe they need to stick together, talk about "little Britain" on it's own, and believe economies smaller than the UK like quote "Canada, Australia, and New Zealand" are quote "at the mercy of others"? Does Wolf believe we are going to lose our exports to the EU? The major EU economies largely buy their own products, generally being far more loyal and patriotic to their own commerce. They generally only buy British products they really want and need. I believe that will continue. As Wolf admits, attitudes are changing in the EU, immigration being just one. Southern states are kicking against the Euro, eastern states are kicking against central authoritarian control. Soon countries that have enjoy huge regional aid in the past like Spain and Ireland are going to find they are net financial contributers and EU membership will hit their pockets as regional aid and CAP money is reduced. The EU is playing hard ball with the UK because they know the EU will fall apart without Britain's membership. You cannot lightly dismiss a country of 66 million, with a modern economy that is the 6th biggest in the world. No longer 5th because we have been overtaken by India with a massive population and rapidly growing economy that will be crying out for the sort of products and services the UK can provide, (Believe me, not Wolf, I have worked in India for Tata.) Meanwhile apart from Germany the EU economy is largely stagnant with many states having massive unemployment, particularly among the young who need to travel to Germany, France, and Britain to get work. Ireland joined the EU because the UK joined. They have done exceedingly well out of it and are currently committed to remaining in (as would Scotland). But with the UK out, their main trading partners being the USA and UK, most of their exports to the EU travelling to Europe via the UK, and their net financial contribution increasing, the growth markets being outside the EU, I confidently predict it will not be many years before there will be a strong movement to leave. I've seen a lot of people confidently predicting the EU will fall apart without the UK. Since June 24 2016 in fact. But there it still is, weathering sovereign debt crises in southern Europe, immigration issues and now Covid-19. And on it goes, evolving as it always has done since some form of alliance was first made almost 70 years ago. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking on many Leavers' part - hopeful that it all comes crashing down, in much the same way that they convince themselves that a bloc with 27 members (and growing), an annual budget of 148bn and GDP of close to 20tn is somehow beholden to one country with a GDP of 2tn and an economy that is slowly slipping down the rankings, having been superseded by France recently. You're a businessman Mr Coke, you'll know full well that the corner shop doesn't often get to outdo the supermarket chain! I don't doubt that the UK will be missed, not least for its financial contributions. So the EU will presumably have to cut its cloth accordingly and move on. But let's not kid ourselves that this isn't going to be more damaging for the UK in the long term. For many Leavers that might be perfectly acceptable. It's really more a case of whether people are happy enough with that outcome provided their sovereignty is sacrosanct. And immigration reduces. Time will tell which of us will be proven to be more correct or incorrect. As I seem to remember it was forecast the UK would go into recession if we voted to leave in 2016, never mind actually leaving, which we have now but not yet in effect. But it took a pandemic to actually put our economy in reverse. Right now I am highly delighted we have got out and will not have to join Germany in bailing out the Italian economy. To be serious, I think there is significant risk of some EU countries lurching to the right and voting in neofacsist governments in the future, or at least having right wing parties holding the balance of power. ,
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 11, 2020 17:39:20 GMT
I see, so your point was about inaccurate reporting? To want to stick an article which didn't mention Brexit on a Brexit thread to highlight biased reporting? I'm sorry. I don't like getting played either. Just didn't see the point of an article with no reference to Brexit on a Brexit thread? Well done on winning a game only you knew you were playing.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 11, 2020 17:41:29 GMT
I've seen a lot of people confidently predicting the EU will fall apart without the UK. Since June 24 2016 in fact. But there it still is, weathering sovereign debt crises in southern Europe, immigration issues and now Covid-19. And on it goes, evolving as it always has done since some form of alliance was first made almost 70 years ago. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking on many Leavers' part - hopeful that it all comes crashing down, in much the same way that they convince themselves that a bloc with 27 members (and growing), an annual budget of 148bn and GDP of close to 20tn is somehow beholden to one country with a GDP of 2tn and an economy that is slowly slipping down the rankings, having been superseded by France recently. You're a businessman Mr Coke, you'll know full well that the corner shop doesn't often get to outdo the supermarket chain! I don't doubt that the UK will be missed, not least for its financial contributions. So the EU will presumably have to cut its cloth accordingly and move on. But let's not kid ourselves that this isn't going to be more damaging for the UK in the long term. For many Leavers that might be perfectly acceptable. It's really more a case of whether people are happy enough with that outcome provided their sovereignty is sacrosanct. And immigration reduces. Time will tell which of us will be proven to be more correct or incorrect. As I seem to remember it was forecast the UK would go into recession if we voted to leave in 2016, never mind actually leaving, which we have now but not yet in effect. But it took a pandemic to actually put our economy in reverse. Right now I am highly delighted we have got out and will not have to join Germany in bailing out the Italian economy. To be serious, I think there is significant risk of some EU countries lurching to the right and voting in neofacsist governments in the future, or at least having right wing parties holding the balance of power. , We will indeed see. If you're right about the last part, all the more reason to have close ties between all of the countries of Europe, given the history of Europe without them or with smaller alliances.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 11, 2020 17:44:23 GMT
Clearly you will never come to terms with not getting what you want. Its funny really....and a good example of a certain current mindset....but some do seem to be coming to terms with it better than others Life's too short. Crack on. You're not wrong on life being too short, John, as 3,000 posts to 13,000 would tend to indicate...ahh. Quality not quantity eh? Glad you are interested in the personal thiugh. Thank you. Have you taken into account the timescale? Have you come to terms with the Thatcher elections?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 11, 2020 17:50:02 GMT
You're not wrong on life being too short, John, as 3,000 posts to 13,000 would tend to indicate...ahh. Quality not quantity eh? Glad you are interested in the personal thiugh. Thank you. Have you taken into account the timescale? Have you come to terms with the Thatcher elections? Which would've been a better answer if you had fewer posts than I do... Ah well, time to crack on. Less ad hominem, more Brexit please, John.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 11, 2020 17:53:20 GMT
Quality not quantity eh? Glad you are interested in the personal thiugh. Thank you. Have you taken into account the timescale? Have you come to terms with the Thatcher elections? Which would've been a better answer if you had fewer posts than I do... Ah well, time to crack on. Less ad hominem, more Brexit please, John. Aye crack on, you're certainly doing a good job on behalf of Remainers.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 11, 2020 22:07:09 GMT
Most who voted to leave thought that they would be stopping them coming Very similar shite living conditions, usually old caravans, shared bathrooms, wages docked for not meeting quotas etc. They choose and want to come. It isn't similar at all. You seem obsessed with immigration/ foreigners. Those who voted leave simply want control over our own affairs. Are you doing the classic deflection...the Guardian and Ecowatch seem to think that what is happening in Spain is an issue. ....... A 2015 report in NaturPhilosophie noted that, in addition to the massive human rights problems, the area is plagued with depleted aquifers, the largest desalination plant in Europe to keep water flowing into the greenhouses, and rising cancer rates due to pesticide exposure among workers. Waste from the “farms" is reported to run off into the Mediterranean Sea, including the chemical waste, plastic waste and human waste of the workers. Entire industries have popped up in the area simply to make the massive amount of plastic for the greenhouses which has a short lifespan and is sometimes discarded, strewn across the landscape or washed into the sea. Of course it is similar. Explain my obsession with immigrants, foreigners, ??
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 11, 2020 22:08:55 GMT
They choose and want to come. It isn't similar at all. You seem obsessed with immigration/ foreigners. Those who voted leave simply want control over our own affairs. Are you doing the classic deflection...the Guardian and Ecowatch seem to think that what is happening in Spain is an issue. ....... A 2015 report in NaturPhilosophie noted that, in addition to the massive human rights problems, the area is plagued with depleted aquifers, the largest desalination plant in Europe to keep water flowing into the greenhouses, and rising cancer rates due to pesticide exposure among workers. Waste from the “farms" is reported to run off into the Mediterranean Sea, including the chemical waste, plastic waste and human waste of the workers. Entire industries have popped up in the area simply to make the massive amount of plastic for the greenhouses which has a short lifespan and is sometimes discarded, strewn across the landscape or washed into the sea. Of course it is similar. Explain my obsession with immigrants, foreigners, ?? It isn't similar, of course not. You seem to reduce the Brexit debate to immigration, when it is far wider than that.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Jun 11, 2020 22:54:53 GMT
Of course it is similar. Explain my obsession with immigrants, foreigners, ?? It isn't similar, of course not. You seem to reduce the Brexit debate to immigration, when it is far wider than that. Of course it is similar, foreign workers bought in, shite work conditions, shite living conditions, shite pay, next to no rights, gangmaster/agency used to control the workers and take the blame, exploitation, etc. Come on explain my obsession with foreigners,??? You are one of the ones mentioning immigration on this thread. Typical deflection by you, which you are not very good at.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 6:40:09 GMT
It isn't similar, of course not. You seem to reduce the Brexit debate to immigration, when it is far wider than that. Of course it is similar, foreign workers bought in, shite work conditions, shite living conditions, shite pay, next to no rights, gangmaster/agency used to control the workers and take the blame, exploitation, etc. Come on explain my obsession with foreigners,??? You are one of the ones mentioning immigration on this thread. Typical deflection by you, which you are not very good at. He does like to straw man discussions does our John! It's not like immigration wasn't central to the whole EU membership debate for loads of Leave voters. Seems entirely reasonable to me to question whether Leavers think what they were promised is being delivered in that regard, without some nonsense about being "obsessed" with it! Meanwhile, another plank falls away... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53018020
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 12, 2020 6:57:04 GMT
Of course it is similar, foreign workers bought in, shite work conditions, shite living conditions, shite pay, next to no rights, gangmaster/agency used to control the workers and take the blame, exploitation, etc. Come on explain my obsession with foreigners,??? You are one of the ones mentioning immigration on this thread. Typical deflection by you, which you are not very good at. He does like to straw man discussions does our John! It's not like immigration wasn't central to the whole EU membership debate for loads of Leave voters. Seems entirely reasonable to me to question whether Leavers think what they were promised is being delivered in that regard, without some nonsense about being "obsessed" with it! Meanwhile, another plank falls away... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53018020Yes I'm sure there are some that voted purely on immigration But there were far more who voted on the sovereignty issue
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 7:06:35 GMT
It isn't similar, of course not. You seem to reduce the Brexit debate to immigration, when it is far wider than that. Of course it is similar, foreign workers bought in, shite work conditions, shite living conditions, shite pay, next to no rights, gangmaster/agency used to control the workers and take the blame, exploitation, etc. Come on explain my obsession with foreigners,??? You are one of the ones mentioning immigration on this thread. Typical deflection by you, which you are not very good at. It isn't similar. If you read the article there is a massive involvement of threats involved in Spain, illegal immigrants are used against their will ( slavery?), a masdive environmental impact, compulsion to work , a massive degree of difference in living conditions. I've only mentioned immigration in response to you or as one aspect of Brexit when necessaryto do so....It's not particularlya big issue for me in itself...WHO controls immigrationand illegal immigration is...it is all that you and some remainers bring it back to.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jun 12, 2020 7:08:26 GMT
Of course it is similar, foreign workers bought in, shite work conditions, shite living conditions, shite pay, next to no rights, gangmaster/agency used to control the workers and take the blame, exploitation, etc. Come on explain my obsession with foreigners,??? You are one of the ones mentioning immigration on this thread. Typical deflection by you, which you are not very good at. He does like to straw man discussions does our John! It's not like immigration wasn't central to the whole EU membership debate for loads of Leave voters. Seems entirely reasonable to me to question whether Leavers think what they were promised is being delivered in that regard, without some nonsense about being "obsessed" with it! Meanwhile, another plank falls away... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53018020Was reduction of immigration central to your decision to vote leave?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 7:16:30 GMT
He does like to straw man discussions does our John! It's not like immigration wasn't central to the whole EU membership debate for loads of Leave voters. Seems entirely reasonable to me to question whether Leavers think what they were promised is being delivered in that regard, without some nonsense about being "obsessed" with it! Meanwhile, another plank falls away... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53018020Yes I'm sure there are some that voted purely on immigration But there were far more who voted on the sovereignty issue Not the case actually, as this research from Oxford Uni shows. csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Stated-Reasons-Fig-1.pngI think it's reasonable to question whether Leavers are getting what was promised them and what was central to their decision to vote Leave. Clearly that includes immigration...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 7:22:08 GMT
Yes I'm sure there are some that voted purely on immigration But there were far more who voted on the sovereignty issue Not the case actually, as this research from Oxford Uni shows. csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Stated-Reasons-Fig-1.pngI think it's reasonable to question whether Leavers are getting what was promised them and what was central to their decision to vote Leave. Clearly that includes immigration... It is ridiculous to ask questions so soon about the effects of a policy that may take years to have an impact. It is like asking a new prime minister , 20 minutes after accepting the job from the Queen, how his/ her education policy is going. In respect of immigration, just like trade, agriculture, fishing, foreign policy...the main issue is " By whom and how are these things decided?"
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 7:29:56 GMT
It is ridiculous to ask questions so soon about the effects of a policy that may take years to have an impact. It is like asking a new prime minister , 20 minutes after accepting the job from the Queen, how his/ her education policy is going. In respect of immigration, just like trade, agriculture, fishing, foreign policy...the main issue is " By whom and how are these things decided?" Four years you kept going on about yesterday, as if that was far too long to still be going on about the referendum...now it's far too soon to be asking questions of the decision. Make your mind up! I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask through ongoing scrutiny if we're going to have all the promises actually delivered. A lot seems to be falling away already...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 8:29:28 GMT
It is ridiculous to ask questions so soon about the effects of a policy that may take years to have an impact. It is like asking a new prime minister , 20 minutes after accepting the job from the Queen, how his/ her education policy is going. In respect of immigration, just like trade, agriculture, fishing, foreign policy...the main issue is " By whom and how are these things decided?" Four years you kept going on about yesterday, as if that was far too long to still be going on about the referendum...now it's far too soon to be asking questions of the decision. Make your mind up! I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask through ongoing scrutiny if we're going to have all the promises actually delivered. A lot seems to be falling away already... I don't understand what you are saying again, except that you can't accept the result. I don't know what you mean by " four yesrs"...but it may be that you are confusing the 4 year gap between the election result and actually leaving, which is too long....with the timescale involved since / as we leave...and jts relevance to the implementation of policy. Anyway, I'll have to leave you to cone to terms with the electorate deciding to leave the EU.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 9:23:14 GMT
Thanks, John, always good to see what we've been promised and how it all pans out in relation to those promises, I agree. Aye, it is difficult for some to come to terms with not getting what they want. 4 years after the referendum. Crack on. Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK?
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Post by Clayton Wood on Jun 12, 2020 9:33:48 GMT
Aye, it is difficult for some to come to terms with not getting what they want. 4 years after the referendum. Crack on. Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK? I got what I voted for on 1st May.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 9:40:14 GMT
Aye, it is difficult for some to come to terms with not getting what they want. 4 years after the referendum. Crack on. Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK? I think that you are getting a bit confused between the date of the referendum result ( at which point Brexit has not occurred) and actually leaving the EU, at which point we start to reassert ourselves as a nation...I'd wait 3 or 4 years from that date....but regaining sovereignty is an ongoing process. Crack on.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 9:41:26 GMT
Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK? I got what I voted for on 1st May. 1st May?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 9:48:09 GMT
Erm, this? From your post yesterday? Out of interest, how long do you think we should wait until it's no longer 'ridiculous' to scrutinise whether Leavers got what they voted for and if it's been a good thing or bad for the UK? I think that you are getting a bit confused between the date of the referendum result ( at which point Brexit has not occurred) and actually leaving the EU, at which point we start to reassert ourselves as a nation...I'd wait 3 or 4 years from that date....but regaining sovereignty is an ongoing process. Crack on. Oh, that's what you meant by 4 years was it? I see. May as well close this thread down and bide our time until Jan 2024, then see if what was promised at the referendum matches how things actually are eight years later and also how it's panned out for the country as a whole. Fair enough. I wonder why people don't just do that?
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Post by Clayton Wood on Jun 12, 2020 9:52:05 GMT
I got what I voted for on 1st May. 1st May? Yes mine was a very specific reason to vote leave but tied up in the bigger sovereignty issue. Hundreds of pages back I detailed the technical issues about VAT on digital goods. Essentially EU law overrode UK law and made all businesses regardless of size charge and account for VAT on digital goods to EU customers. Thousands of small businesses either gave up or went to the wall. We're talking training organisations, suppliers of kids stories etc. here. Working from home off a kitchen table and taking years to get to the level of turnover (£85,000) that would normally require UK Vat registration. No matter the EU applied it regardless. On 1st May Rishi Sunak revoked it and made UK sales to EU customers of digital goods VAT free whether the EU like it or not or if agreed it. UK Sovereignty 1 EU Dictatorship 0 I couldn't care less about immigration.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 12, 2020 9:56:36 GMT
I see.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 12, 2020 10:03:12 GMT
I think that you are getting a bit confused between the date of the referendum result ( at which point Brexit has not occurred) and actually leaving the EU, at which point we start to reassert ourselves as a nation...I'd wait 3 or 4 years from that date....but regaining sovereignty is an ongoing process. Crack on. Oh, that's what you meant by 4 years was it? I see. May as well close this thread down and bide our time until Jan 2024, then see if what was promised at the referendum matches how things actually are eight years later and also how it's panned out for the country as a whole. Fair enough. I wonder why people don't just do that? Actually you are almost correct for once. The thread is much less active since the decisive victory of Boris with the mandate to " get Brexit done'...the only relevant debate in this respect surrounds what sort of arrangement we end up with on December 31st at the end of the transition period. To start to appraise the success of any post Brexit policies is far too premature.
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