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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 22:54:35 GMT
1891: Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!
I'm sure I've read that they did that show on the old county cricket ground where Staffs Uni now stands on College Road???
Yes mate, I added the link to the original post before I saw yours.
As I've said above, I've also seen reports that it was staged in Boothen/Sideway at the Racecourse.
I don't know if anybody can identify the buildings at the back of the picture, I guess if they could, it would establish where it took place for certain?
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2017 23:02:44 GMT
I'm sure I've read that they did that show on the old county cricket ground where Staffs Uni now stands on College Road???
Yes mate, I added the link to the original post before I saw yours.
As I've said above, I've also seen reports that it was staged in Boothen/Sideway at the Racecourse.
I don't know if anybody can identify the buildings at the back of the picture, I guess if they could, it would establish where it took place for certain.
Mystery solved Paul. The first show (1891) probably took place roughly where Staffs Uni is now..close to Stoke Railway Station but the SECOND tour (1903) took place at the old Racecourse (where the Mich is in Sideway/Oakhill). |
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Mar 15, 2017 23:13:19 GMT
I'm sure I've read that they did that show on the old county cricket ground where Staffs Uni now stands on College Road???
Yes mate, I added the link to the original post before I saw yours.
As I've said above, I've also seen reports that it was staged in Boothen/Sideway at the Racecourse.
I don't know if anybody can identify the buildings at the back of the picture, I guess if they could, it would establish where it took place for certain?
Those buildings look very 1920s |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 23:16:17 GMT
Ah so he actually came to Stoke a second time and this explains the confusion ...
"The hundreds of horses, buffalo and other animals that were all part and parcel of the Wild West show spent the winter in a large camp on Joseph Wedgewood’s former estate at Etruria, Stoke on Trent, while Buffalo Bill and the majority of his cowboy and Indian performers returned to their homes in the USA for the winter. A handful of cowboys and stablehands remained to care for the animals and repair the show equipment.
Buffalo Bill and his entourage returned in 1904 for what was billed as “Positively the Last and Final Farewell Tour of England, Wales & Scotland by Buffalo Bill’s Wild West & Congress of Rough Riders of the World”. The tour had 132 engagements across the whole country and the first show was at the Old Racecourse, Bootham Bar, Stoke on Trent on 24th April."
www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/wild-west-collector146s-special-memento-buffalo-cody/story-20122286-detail/story.html
So the Racecourse was obviously still up and running well into the next century.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 15, 2017 23:19:07 GMT
Ah so he actually came to Stoke a second time and this explains the confusion ...
"The hundreds of horses, buffalo and other animals that were all part and parcel of the Wild West show spent the winter in a large camp on Joseph Wedgewood’s former estate at Etruria, Stoke on Trent, while Buffalo Bill and the majority of his cowboy and Indian performers returned to their homes in the USA for the winter. A handful of cowboys and stablehands remained to care for the animals and repair the show equipment.
Buffalo Bill and his entourage returned in 1904 for what was billed as “Positively the Last and Final Farewell Tour of England, Wales & Scotland by Buffalo Bill’s Wild West & Congress of Rough Riders of the World”. The tour had 132 engagements across the whole country and the first show was at the Old Racecourse, Bootham Bar, Stoke on Trent on 24th April."
www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/wild-west-collector146s-special-memento-buffalo-cody/story-20122286-detail/story.html
So the Racecourse was obviously still up and running well into the next century.
With that in mind, you'd think it would be on a map or better documented than it seems to be. I'd never heard of it before this thread. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 23:29:59 GMT
Ah so he actually came to Stoke a second time and this explains the confusion ...
"The hundreds of horses, buffalo and other animals that were all part and parcel of the Wild West show spent the winter in a large camp on Joseph Wedgewood’s former estate at Etruria, Stoke on Trent, while Buffalo Bill and the majority of his cowboy and Indian performers returned to their homes in the USA for the winter. A handful of cowboys and stablehands remained to care for the animals and repair the show equipment.
Buffalo Bill and his entourage returned in 1904 for what was billed as “Positively the Last and Final Farewell Tour of England, Wales & Scotland by Buffalo Bill’s Wild West & Congress of Rough Riders of the World”. The tour had 132 engagements across the whole country and the first show was at the Old Racecourse, Bootham Bar, Stoke on Trent on 24th April."
www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/wild-west-collector146s-special-memento-buffalo-cody/story-20122286-detail/story.html
So the Racecourse was obviously still up and running well into the next century.
With that in mind, you'd think it would be on a map or better documented than it seems to be. I'd never heard of it before this thread.
Me neither mate.
My wife is in the other room pulling her hair out looking at 19th century maps, determined to find it! 
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2017 23:31:06 GMT
Thread of The Year. Great stuff.  |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2017 23:36:39 GMT
Ah so he actually came to Stoke a second time and this explains the confusion ...
"The hundreds of horses, buffalo and other animals that were all part and parcel of the Wild West show spent the winter in a large camp on Joseph Wedgewood’s former estate at Etruria, Stoke on Trent, while Buffalo Bill and the majority of his cowboy and Indian performers returned to their homes in the USA for the winter. A handful of cowboys and stablehands remained to care for the animals and repair the show equipment.
Buffalo Bill and his entourage returned in 1904 for what was billed as “Positively the Last and Final Farewell Tour of England, Wales & Scotland by Buffalo Bill’s Wild West & Congress of Rough Riders of the World”. The tour had 132 engagements across the whole country and the first show was at the Old Racecourse, Bootham Bar, Stoke on Trent on 24th April."
www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/wild-west-collector146s-special-memento-buffalo-cody/story-20122286-detail/story.html
So the Racecourse was obviously still up and running well into the next century.
Fascinating read from the Bugle. It doesn't mention Sitting Bull who had been captured along with other great Sioux Warriors. They were locked up and only allowed out as part of the show.A propaganda offensive from America to portray settlers/cowboys in the best possible light. And Native Americans as savages. Remember that Buffalo Bill had slaughtered tens of thousands of Buffalo along with the other 60 odd million that were wiped out by settlers. This in effect destroyed the hundreds of Native American Tribes who lived off the buffalo. A very sad end to Sitting Bulls life. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 23:46:09 GMT
Ah so he actually came to Stoke a second time and this explains the confusion ...
"The hundreds of horses, buffalo and other animals that were all part and parcel of the Wild West show spent the winter in a large camp on Joseph Wedgewood’s former estate at Etruria, Stoke on Trent, while Buffalo Bill and the majority of his cowboy and Indian performers returned to their homes in the USA for the winter. A handful of cowboys and stablehands remained to care for the animals and repair the show equipment.
Buffalo Bill and his entourage returned in 1904 for what was billed as “Positively the Last and Final Farewell Tour of England, Wales & Scotland by Buffalo Bill’s Wild West & Congress of Rough Riders of the World”. The tour had 132 engagements across the whole country and the first show was at the Old Racecourse, Bootham Bar, Stoke on Trent on 24th April."
www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/wild-west-collector146s-special-memento-buffalo-cody/story-20122286-detail/story.html
So the Racecourse was obviously still up and running well into the next century.
Fascinating read from the Bugle. It doesn't mention Sitting Bull who had been captured along with other great Sioux Warriors. They were locked up and only allowed out as part of the show.A propaganda offensive from America to portray settlers/cowboys in the best possible light. And Native Americans as savages. Remember that Buffalo Bill had slaughtered tens of thousands of Buffalo along with the other 60 odd million that were wiped out by settlers. This in effect destroyed the hundreds of Native American Tribes who lived off the buffalo. A very sad end to Sitting Bulls life.
Indeed mate.
"Buffalo Bill's duel with Yellow Hand was recreated to the cheers of the Potteries crowd as the hero appeared to scalp his enemy."
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2017 23:58:22 GMT
Fascinating read from the Bugle. It doesn't mention Sitting Bull who had been captured along with other great Sioux Warriors. They were locked up and only allowed out as part of the show.A propaganda offensive from America to portray settlers/cowboys in the best possible light. And Native Americans as savages. Remember that Buffalo Bill had slaughtered tens of thousands of Buffalo along with the other 60 odd million that were wiped out by settlers. This in effect destroyed the hundreds of Native American Tribes who lived off the buffalo. A very sad end to Sitting Bulls life.
Indeed mate.
"Buffalo Bill's duel with Yellow Hand was recreated to the cheers of the Potteries crowd as the hero appeared to scalp his enemy."
It only took 100 years for the truth to emerge. After 50 years of Hollywood bullshit. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 0:04:39 GMT
Anyhow back to the ground ... circa 63-66, the Boothen Stand is finished but the floodlights haven't been moved onto the terrace yet.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 18:14:48 GMT
So I ballsed up today ... last week we (me and the wife) went to the library on the Wednesday and we were there until they threw us out at 6pm, so we kinda just assumed that it would be open every week day until 6pm too.
So we rucked up at the archive floor with our flask and sandwiches at 12.45pm, all prepared for a good five hours of searching, only to find ... that they shut at 2pm on Thursday's!!!  
So we had little over an hour at best to try and find anything unfortunately.
We wanted to spend the hour we had concentrating on the racecourse, this is what we came up with:
Now what's really interesting, is that in the review of the show above it states that:
"The same site was occupied by the Wild West Show on the occasion of the only other visit to the district some 13 years back."
So if this is correct, then it means that the first show wasn't staged at Staffordshire County Cricket Ground at all but was indeed held at the Racecourse. I find it very had to believe that the Sentinel would have got this wrong when the two events took place so close together. You have to remember that this was the biggest thing that had ever happened in Stoke. The local newspaper surely wouldn't get the location wrong, I guess it would be like The Rolling Stones having played at the Brit in 2004 and then in 2017 they reported that the concert was actually staged at Vale Park - they just wouldn't get something so fundamental wrong.
And of course if the first one was staged at the Racecourse, and Sweetings Field was at the Racecourse, then I guess there's a possibility that the picture below could in actual fact be a picture of where we played before we moved to the Vic ... yes I know there's a lot of if's there but still. I guess we're back to trying to identify the buildings at the back of the picture.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 18:25:25 GMT
We also found out a bit about the history of the racecourse.
It opened in 1850 and closed in 1860. The track was nearly a mile long and there was a grandstand. Racing there was a main feature of the Wakes Week celebrations.
If you look at the advertisement for the 1904 Buffalo Bill Show above, it refers to it as the Old Racecourse.
They didn't start producing ordinance survey maps until the mid 1870's. We had a look at the ones they did have right up until 1900 and there wasn't any sign of it on them.
So could an explanation for the lack of it appearing on any maps be because by the time they started mapping the area, it had gone and was now just fields but local people would have remembered it as the Old Racecourse, hence it being given that title in the 1904 advertisement?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 18:41:44 GMT
Also a bit off topic but do you remember these two photographs from earlier in the thread?
We found out today, that the lad pushing the wheel barrow in the top picture is actually none other than Roy Brown!
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Mar 16, 2017 18:43:22 GMT
Great work Paul and really interesting stuff.
I noticed in an earlier post about the streets in Stoke being named after Alderman.
One of my forebears, Alderman Poulson has such a street named after him {off Hill Street.}
I was once told 20+ years ago, though havn't pursued it, that there was an archive of portraits of the Alderman in King's Hall.
Just wondered if this 'archive' may contain other resources pertinent to your search.
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 16, 2017 18:49:20 GMT
We also found out a bit about the history of the racecourse.
It opened in 1850 and closed in 1860. The track was nearly a mile long and there was a grandstand. Racing there was a main feature of the Wakes Week celebrations.
If you look at the advertisement for the 1904 Buffalo Bill Show above, it refers to it as the Old Racecourse.
They didn't start producing ordinance survey maps until the mid 1870's. We had a look at the ones they did have right up until 1900 and there wasn't any sign of it on them.
So could an explanation for the lack of it appearing on any maps be because by the time they started mapping the area, it had gone and was now just fields but local people would have remembered it as the Old Racecourse, hence it being given that title in the 1904 advertisement?
What are the archives and facilities like at the library Paul? Is most of the information scanned in and viewed on computer or are you also going through paper copies / folders etc? I've always been interested in looking up some late 1800s photos / articles about the local area but haven't got round to it yet (beyond buying the occasion document from eBay etc.) |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 18:57:55 GMT
We also found out a bit about the history of the racecourse.
It opened in 1850 and closed in 1860. The track was nearly a mile long and there was a grandstand. Racing there was a main feature of the Wakes Week celebrations.
If you look at the advertisement for the 1904 Buffalo Bill Show above, it refers to it as the Old Racecourse.
They didn't start producing ordinance survey maps until the mid 1870's. We had a look at the ones they did have right up until 1900 and there wasn't any sign of it on them.
So could an explanation for the lack of it appearing on any maps be because by the time they started mapping the area, it had gone and was now just fields but local people would have remembered it as the Old Racecourse, hence it being given that title in the 1904 advertisement?
What are the archives and facilities like at the library Paul? Is most of the information scanned in and viewed on computer or are you also going through paper copies / folders etc? I've always been interested in looking up some late 1800s photos / articles about the local area but haven't got round to it yet (beyond buying the occasion document from eBay etc.)
They are vast mate. I'm pretty certain that we haven't even scratched the surface yet, we were really hoping to have a really good dig this afternoon but it wasn't to be and it'll be a fortnight now before we can get back. 
We haven't been looking at anything on computer but rather going through hard copies like books, files, papers, magazines and original maps but most useful of all, is the microfiche, where you can literally scan through pretty much every daily (and weekly) copy of the Sentinel ever produced.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 16, 2017 18:58:41 GMT
Also a bit off topic but do you remember these two photographs from earlier in the thread?
We found out today, that the lad pushing the wheel barrow in the top picture is actually none other than Roy Brown!
Wasn't Roy Brown the brother of Doug Brown? Stokes physiotherapist in the 1960s and creator of Lads n Dads ? Certainly has Dougs features. Great articles Paul Keep up the good work !! 😁 |
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 16, 2017 19:02:07 GMT
Anyhow back to the ground ... circa 63-66, the Boothen Stand is finished but the floodlights haven't been moved onto the terrace yet.
The Sentinel could get anything wrong Paul..I'm pretty certain the Wild West show took place at the Racecourse (where the Michelin was in Sideway) twice. Did some research into meself a few years back (about 25).  |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 19:12:50 GMT
Anyhow back to the ground ... circa 63-66, the Boothen Stand is finished but the floodlights haven't been moved onto the terrace yet.
The Sentinel could get anything wrong Paul..I'm pretty certain the Wild West show took place at the Racecourse (where the Michelin was in Sideway) twice. Did some research into meself a few years back (about 25).
Yes I agree it's looking increasingly likely that it was staged at the Racecourse twice, I just wish we could identify the buildings at the back of the picture of the show, it could be the first picture we have of our 'old' ground.
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Post by onepara on Mar 16, 2017 19:32:49 GMT
That's the bit that had me wondering about the 'racecourse' The road of the same name as held my interest for awhile, always wondered if the historians my have got mixed up..
“My father who had the window round before me told me that the man who built the houses was a familiar face at the Racecourse at Sideway,” says Geoff. “Apparently one day he won a lot of money which he invested in building these houses. Being pleased with his success he incorporated the line of gold bricks all the way up the street telling the tenants that he’d put a gold sovereign behind one of the bricks of each house for luck. But he didn’t say which brick. Amazingly after all these years very few bricks have been disturbed. And the name of the winning horse was – as you’ve already guessed – Gold Coin.” www.thepotteries.org/walks/lost_roads/13_nc_canal2.htm
Paul, I don't know whether you know, but there is a plaque in one of the buses that leaves Newcastle bus station to the hospital. This plaque dedicates this bus to Timothy Trow, & goes on to tell the story of his heroics. |
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 16, 2017 19:34:22 GMT
The Sentinel could get anything wrong Paul..I'm pretty certain the Wild West show took place at the Racecourse (where the Michelin was in Sideway) twice. Did some research into meself a few years back (about 25).
Yes I agree it's looking increasingly likely that it was staged at the Racecourse twice, I just wish we could identify the buildings at the back of the picture of the show, it could be the first picture we have of our 'old' ground.
Are you certain that the picture in question was actually taken in Stoke ? Could have been a PR photo picked up by the sentinel for illustration purposes? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 19:38:19 GMT
Yes I agree it's looking increasingly likely that it was staged at the Racecourse twice, I just wish we could identify the buildings at the back of the picture of the show, it could be the first picture we have of our 'old' ground.
Are you certain that the picture in question was actually taken in Stoke ? Could have been a PR photo picked up by the sentinel for illustration purposes?
Absolutely mate it very well could be, that's why I've put so much emphasis on being able to recognise the buildings.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 19:40:44 GMT
“My father who had the window round before me told me that the man who built the houses was a familiar face at the Racecourse at Sideway,” says Geoff. “Apparently one day he won a lot of money which he invested in building these houses. Being pleased with his success he incorporated the line of gold bricks all the way up the street telling the tenants that he’d put a gold sovereign behind one of the bricks of each house for luck. But he didn’t say which brick. Amazingly after all these years very few bricks have been disturbed. And the name of the winning horse was – as you’ve already guessed – Gold Coin.” www.thepotteries.org/walks/lost_roads/13_nc_canal2.htm
Paul, I don't know whether you know, but there is a plaque in one of the buses that leaves Newcastle bus station to the hospital. This plaque dedicates this bus to Timothy Trow, & goes on to tell the story of his heroics.
No I didn't know that mate, that's really interesting, thanks for sharing.
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 16, 2017 19:50:25 GMT
Are you certain that the picture in question was actually taken in Stoke ? Could have been a PR photo picked up by the sentinel for illustration purposes?
Absolutely mate it very well could be, that's why I've put so much emphasis on being able to recognise the buildings.
Paul, it just looks too built up to be down by the Michelin. The Michelin built down there in the 20s and can't think of anything that could resemble those buildings |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 20:00:05 GMT
Absolutely mate it very well could be, that's why I've put so much emphasis on being able to recognise the buildings.
Paul, it just looks too built up to be down by the Michelin. The Michelin built down there in the 20s and can't think of anything that could resemble those buildings
Yes I think you're probably right mate.
Looking at maps of the time there doesn't appear to be that much down there.
Of course the picture has no bearing on whether the first show took place at the racecourse or not however.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Mar 16, 2017 20:15:42 GMT
As a bit of an aside perhaps but it seems that my clan were prominent Boothen folk at the time of the start of the Club.
From the tomb inscription in St. Peters.
Joseph POULSON, 30 Nov 1803, 69
He was a manufacture of Porcelain China and Earthenware
in these arts, he was peculiarly eminent
Integrity benevolence and sincere affection marked,
the character of this worthy man
William POULSON, 6 July 1825, 77
Joseph Frederick POULSON late of Boothen, 4 Dec 1874, 51.
Interestingly at a similar time..
William Edward Poulson (1862 – 23 January 1937) was an English footballer. He was a one-club man for Port Vale, possibly also being one of its founders.
Poulson played left-back in Port Vale's first recorded line-up on 9 December 1882 in a 5–1 defeat at nearby Stoke in a Staffordshire Senior Cup second round replay.[1] In fact he was most probably a founder-member of the club in the late 1870s.
An early footballing family?
An uncle and aunt did a family tree, but didn't put much foliage on.
This thread has inspired me to dig a bit deeper.
There is a vague story about Joseph Poulson the potter being a partner with Minton, but with increased mechanisation etc he sold out, couldn't convince his sons to go into pots. Apparently. All a bit vague until Alderman Poulson in the 1930's.
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 16, 2017 20:17:11 GMT
Paul
Had a look on the net and came across that picture on uk Pinterest.com although it does not give a venue it says the picture was taken by JE Stimson in 1907
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 16, 2017 20:42:10 GMT
Paul Had a look on the net and came across that picture on uk Pinterest.com although it does not give a venue it says the picture was taken by JE Stimson in 1907
I'm pretty sure the last show in the UK was in 1904 (in Stoke) but of course that doesn't mean that that picture couldn't have been taken in another country.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 16, 2017 20:44:45 GMT
Absolutely mate it very well could be, that's why I've put so much emphasis on being able to recognise the buildings.
Paul, it just looks too built up to be down by the Michelin. The Michelin built down there in the 20s and can't think of anything that could resemble those buildings I was thinking that myself Eddie. The architecture looks more 1950s than the turn of the Century. I'm 95% certain the poster wasn't taken in Stoke on Trent. |
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