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Post by Gary Hackett on Mar 9, 2017 2:48:06 GMT
The land where the Vic would be built on eventually would most probably been owned by proprietor of Stoke Hall, Could he be the owner of Sweeting Field also ( might be worth a look if you visit again) A couple of names of streets in and around the Stoke church area Lordship lane!, Butler street! named after a rich owner of the local Hall?
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The land on which stood the Victoria Ground was in fact called 'Moat Meadow'.
The name came from medieval times when a moat surrounded Stoke Hall, the medieval home of the rector, which stood nearby and where the former offices of the PMT once stood in Woodhouse Street."
"The ground was not named after the hotel. This hotel came much later."
Oh I fully intend on going back next week Burnside. (As I said earlier) I didn't really know what I was doing today and they would only let me leave with photo copies but I now know that I can purchase a 'photo-pass' so I'm able to take digital pictures whilst I'm there.
Which Library did you go to ?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 2:54:08 GMT
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The land on which stood the Victoria Ground was in fact called 'Moat Meadow'.
The name came from medieval times when a moat surrounded Stoke Hall, the medieval home of the rector, which stood nearby and where the former offices of the PMT once stood in Woodhouse Street."
"The ground was not named after the hotel. This hotel came much later."
Oh I fully intend on going back next week Burnside. (As I said earlier) I didn't really know what I was doing today and they would only let me leave with photo copies but I now know that I can purchase a 'photo-pass' so I'm able to take digital pictures whilst I'm there.
That's the bit that had me wondering about the 'racecourse' The road of the same name as held my interest for awhile, always wondered if the historians my have got mixed up..
Exactly mate, it's absolutely fascinating.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 2:55:48 GMT
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The land on which stood the Victoria Ground was in fact called 'Moat Meadow'.
The name came from medieval times when a moat surrounded Stoke Hall, the medieval home of the rector, which stood nearby and where the former offices of the PMT once stood in Woodhouse Street."
"The ground was not named after the hotel. This hotel came much later."
Oh I fully intend on going back next week Burnside. (As I said earlier) I didn't really know what I was doing today and they would only let me leave with photo copies but I now know that I can purchase a 'photo-pass' so I'm able to take digital pictures whilst I'm there.
Which Library did you go to ?
The archive library on the top floor of Bethesda Street Mark.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Mar 9, 2017 2:58:16 GMT
Which Library did you go to ?
The archive library on the top floor of Bethesda Street Mark.
Good work mate, I'm sure there's someone who posts on here every now and then who hasn't had an input yet who could help.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 3:01:31 GMT
The archive library on the top floor of Bethesda Street Mark.
Good work mate, I'm sure there's someone who posts on here every now and then who hasn't had an input yet who could help.
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 9, 2017 10:24:24 GMT
The land where the Vic would be built on eventually would most probably been owned by proprietor of Stoke Hall, Could he be the owner of Sweeting Field also ( might be worth a look if you visit again) A couple of names of streets in and around the Stoke church area Lordship lane!, Butler street! named after a rich owner of the local Hall? EDIT>Just googled this just to see where I might of got the info from ....@kenilworth_Stokies I was told that the land that the Vic stood on was owned by the church (St.Peters)I think there was a stipulation laid down by the church that they would not play on a Sunday. I think this caused some concern in the 70`s when we played on a Sunday (was it Chelsea?) during the power strikes. The streets around the area on the church/Butler street side again I was told are named after Bishops /Clergy who served Stoke parish. These being Maclagan , Selwyn , Cornwallis and Butler. These things might not be the case , but I did go to St. Peters school by the side of the ground when I was a kid and these things were drummed into us.
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Post by Davef on Mar 9, 2017 12:24:53 GMT
Great stuff Paul. There is some confusion about our history isn't there? Not only is the 1863 formation date disputed, but even in the SCFC Encyclopedia there is confusion. It clearly states that Stoke moved from Sweetings Field to the Victoria Ground in 1883, but in a section dedicated to the Victoria Ground at the back of the book it states that we moved to the Vic in 1878! With regard to the racecourse, not only is there a Racecourse Road in Stoke, there's also a "Steeple Way" not far away which suggests that someone knew of the historical significance. I'm wondering whether that was actually Sweetings Field? The land was owned by the Mayor of Stoke, Alderman Sweeting. Maybe the racecourse was Aldermans Sweeting's Field? Then again, if that was the case, you'd perhaps think that there'd be a road named after him somewhere?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 12:55:44 GMT
Great stuff Paul. There is some confusion about our history isn't there? Not only is the 1863 formation date disputed, but even in the SCFC Encyclopedia there is confusion. It clearly states that Stoke moved from Sweetings Field to the Victoria Ground in 1883, but in a section dedicated to the Victoria Ground at the back of the book it states that we moved to the Vic in 1878! With regard to the racecourse, not only is there a Racecourse Road in Stoke, there's also a "Steeple Way" not far away which suggests that someone knew of the historical significance. I'm wondering whether that was actually Sweetings Field? The land was owned by the Mayor of Stoke, Alderman Sweeting. Maybe the racecourse was Aldermans Sweeting's Field? Then again, if that was the case, you'd perhaps think that there'd be a road named after him somewhere?
Yeah pretty much everywhere you look on the net it states that we moved to the Victoria Ground in 1878 but of course it only takes one source to get it wrong and everybody else blindly follows suit.
The article from Bibendum that I posted last night matches up exactly with what was originally written in the SCFC Encyclopedia it seems.
Great shout on Aldermans Sweeting's Field.
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The previous ground for Stoke Football Club was called Sweetings field, named after Alderman Sweeting of Stoke Town Council. This is thought to have been across what is now Campbell Road, roughly in the region of the Victoria Hotel."
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 9, 2017 13:13:41 GMT
Great stuff Paul. There is some confusion about our history isn't there? Not only is the 1863 formation date disputed, but even in the SCFC Encyclopedia there is confusion. It clearly states that Stoke moved from Sweetings Field to the Victoria Ground in 1883, but in a section dedicated to the Victoria Ground at the back of the book it states that we moved to the Vic in 1878! With regard to the racecourse, not only is there a Racecourse Road in Stoke, there's also a "Steeple Way" not far away which suggests that someone knew of the historical significance. I'm wondering whether that was actually Sweetings Field? The land was owned by the Mayor of Stoke, Alderman Sweeting. Maybe the racecourse was Aldermans Sweeting's Field? Then again, if that was the case, you'd perhaps think that there'd be a road named after him somewhere? Dave ,I think Steeple way refers to All Saints Church which used to stand on the corner of London Road and all Saints road.
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 9, 2017 13:16:45 GMT
Great stuff Paul. There is some confusion about our history isn't there? Not only is the 1863 formation date disputed, but even in the SCFC Encyclopedia there is confusion. It clearly states that Stoke moved from Sweetings Field to the Victoria Ground in 1883, but in a section dedicated to the Victoria Ground at the back of the book it states that we moved to the Vic in 1878! With regard to the racecourse, not only is there a Racecourse Road in Stoke, there's also a "Steeple Way" not far away which suggests that someone knew of the historical significance. I'm wondering whether that was actually Sweetings Field? The land was owned by the Mayor of Stoke, Alderman Sweeting. Maybe the racecourse was Aldermans Sweeting's Field? Then again, if that was the case, you'd perhaps think that there'd be a road named after him somewhere?
Yeah pretty much everywhere you look on the net it states that we moved to the Victoria Ground in 1878 but of course it only takes one source to get it wrong and everybody else blindly follows suit.
The article from Bibendum that I posted last night matches up exactly with what was originally written in the SCFC Encyclopedia it seems.
Great shout on Aldermans Sweeting's Field.
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The previous ground for Stoke Football Club was called Sweetings field, named after Alderman Sweeting of Stoke Town Council. This is thought to have been across what is now Campbell Road, roughly in the region of the Victoria Hotel."
Paul there is a local historian named Richard Talbot that knows loads about Stoke and the surrounding area , he has written books and does talks etc. Might be worth contacting him
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 13:21:36 GMT
Yeah pretty much everywhere you look on the net it states that we moved to the Victoria Ground in 1878 but of course it only takes one source to get it wrong and everybody else blindly follows suit.
The article from Bibendum that I posted last night matches up exactly with what was originally written in the SCFC Encyclopedia it seems.
Great shout on Aldermans Sweeting's Field.
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The previous ground for Stoke Football Club was called Sweetings field, named after Alderman Sweeting of Stoke Town Council. This is thought to have been across what is now Campbell Road, roughly in the region of the Victoria Hotel."
Paul there is a local historian named Richard Talbot that knows loads about Stoke and the surrounding area , he has written books and does talks etc. Might be worth contacting him Ha ha yes, the link that I posted in the post that you've quoted is from Richard Talbot.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 13:37:35 GMT
I found this in the library from the Sentinel, it's dating the picture from the OP as 1930 (we already know that it was definitely taken between 1930 and 1933). However I'm not sure how much accuracy you can put on their dating of the pic because they are also claiming that the Butler Street stand was built in 1929 which we now know is way off.
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Post by Davef on Mar 9, 2017 14:59:00 GMT
They've just reproduced this mistaken paragraph from the SCFC Encyclopedia Paul. It's clear that it was the Boothen End that was opened in 1929. Though you'd have thought they'd have looked at the picture and noticed the big stand with the shiny new roof on it and put two and two together.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Mar 9, 2017 15:12:24 GMT
Has this one been posted yet? I'd never seen it before but found it on a Rangers forum of all places. Did the Boothen Stand roof change in the late seventies / early 80s when we developed the Stoke End and Butler Street? Also, the Butler Street Stand after the roof blew off but prior to the executive boxes being built The corner of the old Butler St roof lived on for a while after the new roof was built (see extreme right of the lower photo) but when did it finally bite the dust?
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Post by Davef on Mar 9, 2017 15:15:31 GMT
The corner of the old Butler St roof lived on for a while after the new roof was built but when did it finally bite the dust? 1983 Spot the difference! 82/83 season on the left and Hudson's second debut in 83/84 on the right.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Mar 9, 2017 15:31:24 GMT
Cool, cheers Dave. On the subject of the location of Sweetings Field, you can see from the following 1885 - 1900 OS map that there was a large patch of open ground the other side of Campbell Road that could easily have been said field: maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=52.9983&lon=-2.1828&layers=1&right=BingHybAlso, you can see there was a large patch of open ground around Racecourse Street (marked on the 1885 - 1900 map as 'Oak Hill'). Often race grounds started out as races across open fields between two steeples (hence Steeplechase) as a wager between two gentlemen, often watched by a crown of onlookers. Some such steeplechases evolved into becoming formal racecourses and sometimes they simply ended up getting built over. There's one such site in my home town that is now under houses, despite having once been popular enough to warrant the closure of local factories to allow several thousand workers to go and watch the racing. Today you'd never know it was there. But I digress...
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Post by Davef on Mar 9, 2017 16:12:21 GMT
I think this map may give us a better idea of where Stoke played before we moved to the Victoria Ground...It's marked as surveyed from 1866-1877. maps.nls.uk/view/101596085You'll have to zoom in but if you find STOKE HALL, you'll notice Lonsdale Street just to the left. Cornwallis Street, Selwyn Street and Butler Street obviously haven't been built yet, but you can make out the site of the Victoria Ground. Keep scrolling down and you'll see land north and south of Boothen Farm (I'm assuming that's the site where the Michelin factory went up). It's often said that when we moved to the Victoria Ground we moved across the road. The only road there at the time was Boothen Road so the area of land north of Boothen Farm could've been a pitch. The other option is where it's marked Oak Hill. That's roughly where Racecourse Road is at the moment and there's clearly a large plot of land to the right in the map.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Mar 9, 2017 16:25:56 GMT
On the subject of map comparisons, you can see the oval Victoria ground appearing for the first time on the 1888 - 1913 map: maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=52.9979&lon=-2.1825&layers=6&right=BingHybThe Boothen End sat over the start of the man-made straight mill race that bypassed the twisty-turny true course of the Trent and fed the old mill at Glebe Mill Farm. The twisty-turny course of the Trent was subsequently filled in and is now underneath the D-Road, as are the mills. I suppose that makes us Stoke-on-Mill-Race-Near-Trent.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 13:33:08 GMT
A couple more pictures that I found in the library.
I'm not quite sure of the history of the kit but it appears that after we changed to stripes for the first time we then went to plain dark shirts and then back to stripes again. I'm going back tomorrow, so hopefully I'll find some pictures of the actual ground developing.
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 15, 2017 13:42:26 GMT
A couple more pictures that I found in the library.
I'm not quite sure of the history of the kit but it appears that after we changed to stripes for the first time we then went to plain dark shirts and then back to stripes again. I'm going back tomorrow, so hopefully I'll find some pictures of the actual ground developing. This page is a good reference re: how the home kit has changed, dating back to the Stoke Ramblers days - www.historicalkits.co.uk/Stoke_City/Stoke_City.htmIt could help when trying to match up any old photos of the ground (albeit not always easy in black and white)
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Post by Davef on Mar 15, 2017 16:09:17 GMT
Many many moons ago, we ran a feature in The Oatcake called "The Stoke City Historian". It was written by a chap called Pete Wyatt and ran for a couple of seasons. I had a quick look through some old issues and found this little snippet from the 1902/03 season entry:
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 16:17:46 GMT
Many many moons ago, we ran a feature in The Oatcake called "The Stoke City Historian". It was written by a chap called Pete Wyatt and ran for a couple of seasons. I had a quick look through some old issues and found this little snippet from the 1902/03 season entry: That's spooky Dave. I actually found that entire article in the library, it runs for over a page and a half of the original Sentinel but they wouldn't let me photograph it without a licence, which I now have and was intending on photographing tomorrow.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2017 16:30:36 GMT
At the turn of the last century one of the 'Greatest Shows on Earth' came to Stoke on Trent to perform in Boothen/Sideway on land later to be bought by The Michelin.
Buffalo Bills Wild West Show with Sitting Bull & Wild Bill Cody. Attracted attendances of over 250,000 to the event.
Most people came by train then walked down Longsdale Street & Campbell Road, past The Vic, to the show.
Stokes football ground was too small to host the event given the massive amount of interest at the time. Stoke on Trent was one of a handful of places in Britain where the show took place.
Must have been fantastic.
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Post by Davef on Mar 15, 2017 16:30:41 GMT
I think our transfer team are still using that phone by the way.
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 15, 2017 18:57:09 GMT
At the turn of the last century one of the 'Greatest Shows on Earth' came to Stoke on Trent to perform in Boothen/Sideway on land later to be bought by The Michelin. Buffalo Bills Wild West Show with Sitting Bull & Wild Bill Cody. Attracted attendances of over 250,000 to the event. Most people came by train then walked down Longsdale Street & Campbell Road, past The Vic, to the show. Stokes football ground was too small to host the event given the massive amount of interest at the time. Stoke on Trent was one of a handful of places in Britain where the show took place. Must have been fantastic. There was a tale that an elephant was buried somewhere under what was the Michelin Sports ground it had died while with a circus down there. Perhaps it was the same show
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 15, 2017 22:30:50 GMT
Great stuff Paul. There is some confusion about our history isn't there? Not only is the 1863 formation date disputed, but even in the SCFC Encyclopedia there is confusion. It clearly states that Stoke moved from Sweetings Field to the Victoria Ground in 1883, but in a section dedicated to the Victoria Ground at the back of the book it states that we moved to the Vic in 1878! With regard to the racecourse, not only is there a Racecourse Road in Stoke, there's also a "Steeple Way" not far away which suggests that someone knew of the historical significance. I'm wondering whether that was actually Sweetings Field? The land was owned by the Mayor of Stoke, Alderman Sweeting. Maybe the racecourse was Aldermans Sweeting's Field? Then again, if that was the case, you'd perhaps think that there'd be a road named after him somewhere? Dave ,I think Steeple way refers to All Saints Church which used to stand on the corner of London Road and all Saints road. I was born in All Saints Road and used to attend Boothen Primary School. This was opposite to All Saints Church. There was a building at the side of the church where we went for our school meals & morning assembly. We also used to play football in the school grounds by the building. At the back of the church was a small graveyard. And at the front the boulevard running up to Oakhill.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 22:33:16 GMT
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The land on which stood the Victoria Ground was in fact called 'Moat Meadow'.
The name came from medieval times when a moat surrounded Stoke Hall, the medieval home of the rector, which stood nearby and where the former offices of the PMT once stood in Woodhouse Street."
"The ground was not named after the hotel. This hotel came much later."
Oh I fully intend on going back next week Burnside. (As I said earlier) I didn't really know what I was doing today and they would only let me leave with photo copies but I now know that I can purchase a 'photo-pass' so I'm able to take digital pictures whilst I'm there.
That's the bit that had me wondering about the 'racecourse' The road of the same name as held my interest for awhile, always wondered if the historians my have got mixed up..
“My father who had the window round before me told me that the man who built the houses was a familiar face at the Racecourse at Sideway,” says Geoff. “Apparently one day he won a lot of money which he invested in building these houses. Being pleased with his success he incorporated the line of gold bricks all the way up the street telling the tenants that he’d put a gold sovereign behind one of the bricks of each house for luck. But he didn’t say which brick. Amazingly after all these years very few bricks have been disturbed. And the name of the winning horse was – as you’ve already guessed – Gold Coin.” www.thepotteries.org/walks/lost_roads/13_nc_canal2.htm
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 15, 2017 22:36:27 GMT
That's the bit that had me wondering about the 'racecourse' The road of the same name as held my interest for awhile, always wondered if the historians my have got mixed up..
“My father who had the window round before me told me that the man who built the houses was a familiar face at the Racecourse at Sideway,” says Geoff. “Apparently one day he won a lot of money which he invested in building these houses. Being pleased with his success he incorporated the line of gold bricks all the way up the street telling the tenants that he’d put a gold sovereign behind one of the bricks of each house for luck. But he didn’t say which brick. Amazingly after all these years very few bricks have been disturbed. And the name of the winning horse was – as you’ve already guessed – Gold Coin.” www.thepotteries.org/walks/lost_roads/13_nc_canal2.htm
So we've moved back home then? Keep this stuff coming Paul, it's brilliant.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 15, 2017 22:41:54 GMT
At the turn of the last century one of the 'Greatest Shows on Earth' came to Stoke on Trent to perform in Boothen/Sideway on land later to be bought by The Michelin. Buffalo Bills Wild West Show with Sitting Bull & Wild Bill Cody. Attracted attendances of over 250,000 to the event. Most people came by train then walked down Longsdale Street & Campbell Road, past The Vic, to the show. Stokes football ground was too small to host the event given the massive amount of interest at the time. Stoke on Trent was one of a handful of places in Britain where the show took place. Must have been fantastic.
1891: Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!
Sentinel claiming it was held at Staffordshire Cricket Ground. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/nostalgia-when-buffalo-bill-s-wild-west-show-came-to-stoke/story-30070710-detail/story.html but I've seen other reports (like your one) suggesting it took place at the Racecourse.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 15, 2017 22:45:19 GMT
At the turn of the last century one of the 'Greatest Shows on Earth' came to Stoke on Trent to perform in Boothen/Sideway on land later to be bought by The Michelin. Buffalo Bills Wild West Show with Sitting Bull & Wild Bill Cody. Attracted attendances of over 250,000 to the event. Most people came by train then walked down Longsdale Street & Campbell Road, past The Vic, to the show. Stokes football ground was too small to host the event given the massive amount of interest at the time. Stoke on Trent was one of a handful of places in Britain where the show took place. Must have been fantastic.
1891: Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!
I'm sure I've read that they did that show on the old county cricket ground where Staffs Uni now stands on College Road???
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