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Post by lordb on Mar 7, 2017 18:25:36 GMT
As everyone in those old pics is standing at ground level, could it be the case that soil from around the edges of the pitch were dug out and used to bank up the Stoke end? All the paddocks and the ends were eventually below pitch level hence the white walls. Just a thought Think that must be correct
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 18:58:31 GMT
As everyone in those old pics is standing at ground level, could it be the case that soil from around the edges of the pitch were dug out and used to bank up the Stoke end? All the paddocks and the ends were eventually below pitch level hence the white walls. Just a thought
We're pretty certain the Stoke End embankment was built/completed in the summer of 1934 but the paddocks weren't actually dug below pitch level until 1936.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 19:54:09 GMT
Actually I'm beginning to think that there might be a very good chance that the second half of my post above is actually wrong.
The date for 1936 being the year when the paddocks were dug out, comes from the Simon Inglis book but I was thinking, it just makes so much sense that whatever was dug out, was indeed used to build up the Stoke End embankment and we now know this took place in the summer of 1934.
So I've had a look at these two pieces of video, the first one is from February 1934 and the Stoke End Embankment clearly hasn't been built and the supporters standing on the Butler Street (from 0.40 onwards) are clearly standing at pitch level. This is a brilliant piece of video which hasn't appeared before on this thread. (Just check out the guy in the Boothen at 0.10!)
But look at this footage, are the supporters on the Butler Street paddock actually not standing at pitch level but sank below (look especially between 0.47 and 0.51) their hands are resting on the wall and you can't see their legs and am I just imagining things but is the top of the 'white wall' now evident in this video too?
If the supporters are sunk below the pitch level in the second video, then it would indicate that the paddocks were actually sunk in the summer of 1934 when the Stoke End embankment was built.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Davef on Mar 7, 2017 20:24:16 GMT
I think 1936 is the year the stand was fully completed Paul. If you look at the picture of the workmen it looks like there's a fence erected at the back of the paddock, but there are fans standing beyond that in the 1934 footage. A section of the paddock also looks sunk below pitch level in the film of the players training in 1934.
In fact, the picture of the workmen looks very close to the arial photo of the ground from the summer of 1935.
It was obviously a project that took three, maybe four summers to complete.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 20:44:36 GMT
I think 1936 is the year the stand was fully completed Paul. If you look at the picture of the workmen it looks like there's a fence erected at the back of the paddock, but there are fans standing beyond that in the 1934 footage. A section of the paddock also looks sunk below pitch level in the film of the players training in 1934. In fact, the picture of the workmen looks very close to the arial photo of the ground from the summer of 1935. It was obviously a project that took three, maybe four summers to complete.
Oh absolutely Dave, when you think about it the Butler Street stand ultimately took 33 years to complete, in essence it began when it was first built in 1903 before ultimately being completed in 1936.
However the red herring here has been the claim from Simon Inglis that the paddocks were dug out in 1936, when in actual fact it appears they were dug out in the summer of 1934, which would make sense, as whatever was dug out could have been used to build the Stoke End embankment.
1935^
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Post by Davef on Mar 7, 2017 22:33:12 GMT
Watching the Pathe film of the Stoke v Chelsea FA Cup tie (February 1934) the ground looks more or less the same as the very first aerial photo on the thread, apart from the extended roof on the Boothen Stand. There's obviously shallow banking behind the Stoke End goal.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 7, 2017 22:39:05 GMT
Watching the Pathe film of the Stoke v Chelsea FA Cup tie (February 1934) the ground looks more or less the same as the very first aerial photo on the thread, apart from the extended roof on the Boothen Stand. There's obviously shallow banking behind the Stoke End goal. Have you approached the Club about their records and archives.? I do know that there is a library of photographs available in the archives for public information.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 22:40:55 GMT
Watching the Pathe film of the Stoke v Chelsea FA Cup tie (February 1934) the ground looks more or less the same as the very first aerial photo on the thread, apart from the extended roof on the Boothen Stand. There's obviously shallow banking behind the Stoke End goal.
Yeah completely agree.
I think the summer of 1934 was when a lot of major things took place.
The embankment at the Stoke End was built up to the height we ultimately remember it being in the 70's, the front part of the embankment was terraced for the first time and the paddocks were sunk below pitch level.
The Boothen stand must have been extended between 1930 and 1934 but we don't have any evidence to suggest in which year exactly it was done.
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Post by Davef on Mar 7, 2017 23:00:30 GMT
The original arial photo is from the summer of 1931 with no extended Boothen Stand roof, but it's there on the photo I posted of the game against Sheffield Wednesday in December 1933, so it was probably done in either summer 32 or 33.
We were promoted in 1933, so there's a good chance it was done then?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 23:21:58 GMT
The original arial photo is from the summer of 1931 with no extended Boothen Stand roof, but it's there on the photo I posted of the game against Sheffield Wednesday in December 1933, so it was probably done in either summer 32 or 33. We were promoted in 1933, so there's a good chance it was done then?
Yes that makes absolute sense Dave.
Would you mind posting the Sheffield Wednesday picture from 1933 again, I can't recall it and I've been back through the thread and can't seem to find it - thanks.
Also, how did you date the original picture specifically to 1931 (I'm probably going to embarrass myself asking this question! )?
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Mar 7, 2017 23:45:00 GMT
not loaded....
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Mar 8, 2017 0:02:54 GMT
Nope
Where best to save an image to download?
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Post by ColonelMustard on Mar 8, 2017 1:11:50 GMT
I've nothing to add but just want to say what a belting thread this is to read through. Thanks all. Thoroughly enjoyed it
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2017 11:37:29 GMT
The original arial photo is from the summer of 1931 with no extended Boothen Stand roof, but it's there on the photo I posted of the game against Sheffield Wednesday in December 1933, so it was probably done in either summer 32 or 33. We were promoted in 1933, so there's a good chance it was done then? Ah I've found the Sheffield Weds pic from 1933 now Dave, still not sure how you dated the pic in the OP to 1931 specifically though? Cheers
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Post by Davef on Mar 8, 2017 12:09:32 GMT
The original arial photo is from the summer of 1931 with no extended Boothen Stand roof, but it's there on the photo I posted of the game against Sheffield Wednesday in December 1933, so it was probably done in either summer 32 or 33. We were promoted in 1933, so there's a good chance it was done then? Ah I've found the Sheffield Weds pic from 1933 now Dave, still not sure how you dated the pic in the OP to 1931 specifically though? Cheers Sorry, it wasn't the original photo, it was this one from Britain Above, photographed in July 1931. The ground looks exactly the same as the photo in the OP, but I have no idea when that was taken. www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw036094?search=victoria%20ground%20stoke-on-trent&ref=0
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2017 12:22:26 GMT
Yes they look identical, they could be both from the same year (1931) but the pic in the OP was definitely taken between 1930 and 1933 either way.
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 8, 2017 16:49:48 GMT
Has this one been posted yet? I'd never seen it before but found it on a Rangers forum of all places. Did the Boothen Stand roof change in the late seventies / early 80s when we developed the Stoke End and Butler Street? Also, the Butler Street Stand after the roof blew off but prior to the executive boxes being built
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 18:10:58 GMT
Has this one been posted yet? I'd never seen it before but found it on a Rangers forum of all places. Did the Boothen Stand roof change in the late seventies / early 80s when we developed the Stoke End and Butler Street? Also, the Butler Street Stand after the roof blew off but prior to the executive boxes being built We've had a long association With Glasgow Rangers Loving Cup
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Post by Davef on Mar 8, 2017 18:17:15 GMT
Has this one been posted yet? I'd never seen it before but found it on a Rangers forum of all places. Did the Boothen Stand roof change in the late seventies / early 80s when we developed the Stoke End and Butler Street? Also, the Butler Street Stand after the roof blew off but prior to the executive boxes being built The Boothen Stand had its roof replaced during the summer of 1990. The exec boxes were added to the Butler Street Stand a year earlier.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2017 18:48:21 GMT
So this afternoon I spent a few hours down at the library.
To tell you the truth I didn't really know what I was doing at first, as I hadn't done anything like this before but it soon became apparent that I hadn't even began to scratch the surface of what's there.
These first two images are of pretty poor quality but I thought they were interesting because the first one shows athletics taking place at the ground, which we haven't seen before and the second one, is our first match after having been readmitted to the football league in 1919, a game against Barnsley where we won 2-0.
Both pictures were taken within a week of each other, the first on August 23rd and the second on August 30th.
I've got some better quality images that I'll post after the match tonight has finished.
Cheers
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 0:34:14 GMT
I thought this was an extremely interesting find in the library this afternoon.
The accepted lore is that we moved to the Victoria Ground in 1878 and the first game was against Talke Rangers on March 28th, this is reported on Wikipedia and the current SCFC website, as well as other sources. Of course they could all be basing their information on the same flawed source.
Below is a page taken from the Michelin Bibendum magazine from August 1947. It is a picture with annotations of the first Stoke City team to enter the FA Cup proudly displaying the Staffordshire Charity Cup. The reason I've highlighted the word 'Charity' in bold is because Wikipedia (and other sources) refer to it as the Staffordshire Senior Cup, yet this picture and it's annotations were published at the time.
However the most interesting thing about the page is the copy at the top, which reads:
"A. Holford was the first Stoke footballer to score a goal on the present Stoke football ground. This was against Notts County in the season 1883-4, when the "Potters" won a hard fought game by 2 goals to 1."
and
"Before the 1883 season, Stoke played on a patch of ground which was part of the 'Racecourse' and the Racecourse is the ground on which our Factory now stands."
So if this page from the 1940's is correct, then it throws into question the whole established lore of when we actually moved to the Victoria Ground.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 1:43:12 GMT
Always wondered where the racecourse was, never been able to find it on any old maps Racecourse road is still there, well a little bit of it is. Along London Road By The Cottage Pub. The old map doesn't show a racecourse or name the field as Sweetings field, but dose show a footpath leading over to (roughly the Plough pub) maps.nls.uk/view/101596085 where it says Oak hill on the map above
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 1:49:17 GMT
Always wondered where the racecourse was, never been able to find it on any old maps Racecourse road is still there, well a little bit of it is. Along London Road By The Cottage Pub. The old map doesn't show a racecourse or name the field as Sweetings field, but dose show a footpath leading over to (roughly the Plough pub) maps.nls.uk/view/101596085 where it says Oak hill on the map above
Yes it does appear that the racecourse was originally where the Michelin was built.
Are we assuming that 'Sweetings Field' is the 'patch of ground' at the racecourse that the article above is referring to?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 2:05:48 GMT
. oops
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 2:16:08 GMT
Isn't that picture referencing West Brom mate?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 2:21:19 GMT
The land where the Vic would be built on eventually would most probably been owned by proprietor of Stoke Hall, Could he be the owner of Sweeting Field also ( might be worth a look if you visit again) A couple of names of streets in and around the Stoke church area Lordship lane!, Butler street! named after a rich owner of the local Hall? EDIT>Just googled this just to see where I might of got the info from .... Kenilworth_Stokies
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 2:22:42 GMT
Isn't that picture referencing West Brom mate?
Ah Ah so it is, no wonder it didn't feel right
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Post by Gary Hackett on Mar 9, 2017 2:27:24 GMT
What a cracking thread this is. I was going to go to bed a hour ago but it's taken this long to read it and take it all in. Well done everyone.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 9, 2017 2:37:53 GMT
The land where the Vic would be built on eventually would most probably been owned by proprietor of Stoke Hall, Could he be the owner of Sweeting Field also ( might be worth a look if you visit again) A couple of names of streets in and around the Stoke church area Lordship lane!, Butler street! named after a rich owner of the local Hall?
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The land on which stood the Victoria Ground was in fact called 'Moat Meadow'.
The name came from medieval times when a moat surrounded Stoke Hall, the medieval home of the rector, which stood nearby and where the former offices of the PMT once stood in Woodhouse Street."
"The ground was not named after the hotel. This hotel came much later."
Oh I fully intend on going back next week Burnside. (As I said earlier) I didn't really know what I was doing today and they would only let me leave with photo copies but I now know that I can purchase a 'photo-pass' so I'm able to take digital pictures whilst I'm there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 2:45:10 GMT
The land where the Vic would be built on eventually would most probably been owned by proprietor of Stoke Hall, Could he be the owner of Sweeting Field also ( might be worth a look if you visit again) A couple of names of streets in and around the Stoke church area Lordship lane!, Butler street! named after a rich owner of the local Hall?
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/victoria-ground-rector-s-glebe/story-17768101-detail/story.html
"The land on which stood the Victoria Ground was in fact called 'Moat Meadow'.
The name came from medieval times when a moat surrounded Stoke Hall, the medieval home of the rector, which stood nearby and where the former offices of the PMT once stood in Woodhouse Street."
"The ground was not named after the hotel. This hotel came much later."
Oh I fully intend on going back next week Burnside. (As I said earlier) I didn't really know what I was doing today and they would only let me leave with photo copies but I now know that I can purchase a 'photo-pass' so I'm able to take digital pictures whilst I'm there.
That's the bit that had me wondering about the 'racecourse' The road of the same name as held my interest for awhile, always wondered if the historians my have got mixed up..
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