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Post by imallstokedup on Mar 6, 2017 22:45:57 GMT
Great thread. A couple of images to add. This one I believe was a picture from Stoke v Vale. First match under floodlights ?  Love this image, I'm sure taken from the Police Station roof.  |
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 6, 2017 23:00:29 GMT
Cheers mate. My great great grandad on that list haha. Pylon was installed in new position about 1967. I went to my first match in 1964 and can vaguely recall activity in that area a couple years later. Think it coincided with the John Ritchie saga. Could be wrong though. Yes I think you're probably right. The picture of Stan is 64/65 and the West Ham picture is 67/68 so it had to be done in the summer of 65, 66 or 67. Dunno if you are interested but got a DVD of Nottingham Forest v Stoke in 1907. Maybe been round the block but been sitting in my office draw since DVD came onto the scene 😀 |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 6, 2017 23:15:57 GMT
What do you think we're looking at in these two photographs with regard to the Stoke End embankment?
They were apparently taken in the same year (1927), are they essentially exactly the same thing but just from different angles?
You see originally I was thinking the second picture was showing the entire completed embankment but now I'm not so sure because clearly it's not yet there (in it's entirety) in the first picture.
If you look at the first picture then the goal posts seem to suggest that the running track is still there, it is clearly still there in the second picture.
Was the full embankment to come later?
Any thoughts?
Actually looking at it again I think the stand is slightly above pitch level so there may be a very very slight embankment there that it sits on, which maybe leading to what you were thinking, unless the pitch is dug down slightly. Either way I think the embankment was not only later expanded but also further built up where it previously already existed. It seems very high and steep in later life.
Yes I agree.
So next question ... are these two pictures showing the embankment prior to it being built up further then?
In the first picture you can clearly still see the roof, so they wouldn't (indeed couldn't) have built up the bank whilst it was still there and in the second picture it looks just like the first picture save for the roof having been removed and the introduction of the new terracing at the front.
So if the embankment wasn't built up at this time, then it would seem to indicate that the end was actually part terraced before the full embankment was introduced, would you agree?
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 6, 2017 23:24:33 GMT
Actually looking at it again I think the stand is slightly above pitch level so there may be a very very slight embankment there that it sits on, which maybe leading to what you were thinking, unless the pitch is dug down slightly. Either way I think the embankment was not only later expanded but also further built up where it previously already existed. It seems very high and steep in later life.
Yes I agree.
So next question ... are these two pictures showing the embankment prior to it being built up further then?
In the first picture you can clearly still see the roof, so they wouldn't (indeed couldn't) have built up the bank whilst it was still there and in the second picture it looks just like the first picture save for the roof having been removed and the introduction of the new terracing at the front.
So if the embankment wasn't built up at this time, then it would seem to indicate that the end was actually part terraced before the full embankment was introduced, would you agree?
Seriously....have you contacted the Club about your interest. I'm sure they must have some historical data and archives. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 6, 2017 23:30:11 GMT
Yes I agree.
So next question ... are these two pictures showing the embankment prior to it being built up further then?
In the first picture you can clearly still see the roof, so they wouldn't (indeed couldn't) have built up the bank whilst it was still there and in the second picture it looks just like the first picture save for the roof having been removed and the introduction of the new terracing at the front.
So if the embankment wasn't built up at this time, then it would seem to indicate that the end was actually part terraced before the full embankment was introduced, would you agree?
Seriously....have you contacted the Club about your interest. I'm sure they must have some historical data and archives.
www.stokecityfc.com/club/history/victoriaground.aspx 
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 6, 2017 23:35:50 GMT
No ..I mean have you spoken to anyone. ? |
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 6, 2017 23:38:35 GMT
Actually looking at it again I think the stand is slightly above pitch level so there may be a very very slight embankment there that it sits on, which maybe leading to what you were thinking, unless the pitch is dug down slightly. Either way I think the embankment was not only later expanded but also further built up where it previously already existed. It seems very high and steep in later life.
Yes I agree.
So next question ... are these two pictures showing the embankment prior to it being built up further then?
In the first picture you can clearly still see the roof, so they wouldn't (indeed couldn't) have built up the bank whilst it was still there and in the second picture it looks just like the first picture save for the roof having been removed and the introduction of the new terracing at the front.
So if the embankment wasn't built up at this time, then it would seem to indicate that the end was actually part terraced before the full embankment was introduced, would you agree?
Peter himself could remember back to the thirties 😂😂 |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 6, 2017 23:39:38 GMT
No ..I mean have you spoken to anyone. ?
No. The information they're offering publicly on their official website contradicts the stuff we've pieced together on this thread.
I'm hoping I'll find time over the next week or two to see what pictures they might have at the library and/or the Sentinel.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 6, 2017 23:43:43 GMT
No ..I mean have you spoken to anyone. ?
No. The information they're offering publicly on their official website contradicts the stuff we've pieced together on this thread.
I'm hoping I'll find time over the next week or two to see what pictures they might have at the library and/or the Sentinel.
Are you saying the Club doesn't have some historical archive of ground development and photographs etc? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 23:50:18 GMT
The topography of the ground/area c 1878 (flat) maps.nls.uk/view/101596085c 1900 (flat) maps.nls.uk/view/101596082c 1923 Small rise in the ground maps.nls.uk/view/101596079This would suggest, to me anyway. That the area to the Boothen Stand side of the Stoke End was artificiality raised slightly after 1900 to accommodate a terraced area (It was There on the 1906 team photo ) So Work carried out between 1900 ish and 1905 ish ? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 6, 2017 23:54:04 GMT
No. The information they're offering publicly on their official website contradicts the stuff we've pieced together on this thread.
I'm hoping I'll find time over the next week or two to see what pictures they might have at the library and/or the Sentinel.
Are you saying the Club doesn't have some historical archive of ground development and photographs etc?
If they did, why isn't their page dedicated to it accurate?
I don't know how much of the thread you've read but even well respected authors who have dedicated themselves to understanding the stadium's development seem to have missed bits here and there and they as professionals most certainly would have had access to anything the club has, you would have thought?
And I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you, plenty of people have commented on how much they have enjoyed/are enjoying this thread and are loving contributing to it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 6, 2017 23:59:13 GMT
The topography of the ground/area c 1878 (flat) maps.nls.uk/view/101596085c 1900 (flat) maps.nls.uk/view/101596082c 1923 Small rise in the ground maps.nls.uk/view/101596079This would suggest, to me anyway. That the area to the Boothen Stand side of the Stoke End was artificiality raised slightly after 1900 to accommodate a terraced area (It was There on the 1906 team photo ) So Work carried out between 1900 ish and 1905 ish ?
Yes agree that there was definitely a slight raise around then, you would think it probably took place in 1903 when the roof was put on the Stoke End.
However when was the embankment seriously developed into the end it would remain to be until 1979? We know the terrace first appeared at the front in the summer of 1934 but had the rest of the embankment actually been developed at this time?
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Post by ParaPsych on Mar 7, 2017 9:03:58 GMT
To me in the second picture it looks clearly more built up than in the first, but it is hard to be sure with the angles we're looking from. I seem to have quoted to wrpng post but whatever! |
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 7, 2017 10:16:18 GMT
Actually looking at it again I think the stand is slightly above pitch level so there may be a very very slight embankment there that it sits on, which maybe leading to what you were thinking, unless the pitch is dug down slightly. Either way I think the embankment was not only later expanded but also further built up where it previously already existed. It seems very high and steep in later life.
Yes I agree.
So next question ... are these two pictures showing the embankment prior to it being built up further then?
In the first picture you can clearly still see the roof, so they wouldn't (indeed couldn't) have built up the bank whilst it was still there and in the second picture it looks just like the first picture save for the roof having been removed and the introduction of the new terracing at the front.
So if the embankment wasn't built up at this time, then it would seem to indicate that the end was actually part terraced before the full embankment was introduced, would you agree?
I think that second picture does look like it has been banked up without the stand there. In fact it does look like the actual shape as it finished when it was terraced as it fell away to one side. |
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Mar 7, 2017 10:35:53 GMT
I'm a bit gutted by this, as I had put together a series of plans of the Vic throughout its history showing the development of the ground. However, having had a hard drive failure recently I seem to have lost it without a backup. The only thing to add to your timeline is some extra Pathe news footage from 1934 showing the Butler Street stand without its corners, the old barrel roof on the Stoke End, the old Boothen Stand and what must have been a newly built Boothen End: www.britishpathe.com/video/stoke-versus-chelsea/query/stoke+footballSomewhere there's some really old footage of a match at the old oval shaped Vic with just cinder banks around the edge. I'll see if I can dig that out. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 10:40:59 GMT
To me in the second picture it looks clearly more built up than in the first, but it is hard to be sure with the angles we're looking from. I seem to have quoted to wrpng post but whatever! Yes looking at it again, I think you're right. This would suggest it was probably done when the first terrace was put in and the roof was removed. Cheers |
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Post by kjpt140v on Mar 7, 2017 11:30:52 GMT
How did they get on to the Stoke End? Can't see any steps, etc. Don't you remember?!?!?!?!?!! The Stoke end entrances were road level. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 11:45:01 GMT
I'm a bit gutted by this, as I had put together a series of plans of the Vic throughout its history showing the development of the ground. However, having had a hard drive failure recently I seem to have lost it without a backup. The only thing to add to your timeline is some extra Pathe news footage from 1934 showing the Butler Street stand without its corners, the old barrel roof on the Stoke End, the old Boothen Stand and what must have been a newly built Boothen End: www.britishpathe.com/video/stoke-versus-chelsea/query/stoke+footballSomewhere there's some really old footage of a match at the old oval shaped Vic with just cinder banks around the edge. I'll see if I can dig that out.
That would be really, really interesting if you can manage to find it. 
Cheers
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Post by Davef on Mar 7, 2017 12:15:11 GMT
Are you saying the Club doesn't have some historical archive of ground development and photographs etc?
If they did, why isn't their page dedicated to it accurate?
I don't know how much of the thread you've read but even well respected authors who have dedicated themselves to understanding the stadium's development seem to have missed bits here and there and they as professionals most certainly would have had access to anything the club has, you would have thought?
And I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you, plenty of people have commented on how much they have enjoyed/are enjoying this thread and are loving contributing to it.
Not only have they missed bits, but there are also inaccuracies as well. In both "A Potters Tale" and the SCFC Encyclopedia there is reference to the Butler Street Stand being opened at the beginning of the 1929/30. It states that the Vice President of the Football League opened the stand which provided covered accommodation for 12,000 spectators and that it was the second largest stand of its size in the country on the 'popular' side of a league crowd behind Liverpool. We obviously know from the photos in this thread that it was the Boothen End that was opened in 1929. The Kop at Liverpool was opened in 1928. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 12:50:56 GMT
If they did, why isn't their page dedicated to it accurate?
I don't know how much of the thread you've read but even well respected authors who have dedicated themselves to understanding the stadium's development seem to have missed bits here and there and they as professionals most certainly would have had access to anything the club has, you would have thought?
And I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you, plenty of people have commented on how much they have enjoyed/are enjoying this thread and are loving contributing to it.
In both "A Potters Tale" and the SCFC Encyclopedia there is reference to the Butler Street Stand being opened at the beginning of the 1929/30. It states that the Vice President of the Football League opened the stand which provided covered accommodation for 12,000 spectators and that it was the second largest stand of its size in the country on the 'popular' side of a league crowd behind Liverpool. We obviously know from the photos in this thread that it was the Boothen End that was opened in 1929. The Kop at Liverpool was opened in 1928. Oh indeed Dave, I was attempting to be polite about it!
And of course we now know that the Butler Street stand actually began it's life in 1903 with it's barrelled roof and stanchions before ultimately being completed not until 1936! Indeed it seems that the original roof from 1903 was still there when the roof blew down in 1976.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Mar 7, 2017 13:50:01 GMT
I'm a bit gutted by this, as I had put together a series of plans of the Vic throughout its history showing the development of the ground. However, having had a hard drive failure recently I seem to have lost it without a backup. The only thing to add to your timeline is some extra Pathe news footage from 1934 showing the Butler Street stand without its corners, the old barrel roof on the Stoke End, the old Boothen Stand and what must have been a newly built Boothen End: www.britishpathe.com/video/stoke-versus-chelsea/query/stoke+footballSomewhere there's some really old footage of a match at the old oval shaped Vic with just cinder banks around the edge. I'll see if I can dig that out.
That would be really, really interesting if you can manage to find it.
Cheers
Still digging, but with no luck yet. I have a feeling it was embedded into a modern documentary video somewhere. I think there might be some stills from it in this one at about 1:03: |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 14:11:37 GMT
That would be really, really interesting if you can manage to find it.
Cheers
Still digging, but with no luck yet. I have a feeling it was embedded into a modern documentary video somewhere. I think there might be some stills from it in this one at about 1:03:
Yes mate those stills have appeared earlier in the thread, they are from 1892 when we played Sunderland and the grainy footage is the 1920 game against Port Vale.
It'd be great if you could find the other footage.
Cheers
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Mar 7, 2017 14:31:44 GMT
Am still looking. There's a picture here from the Sentinel of the old Stoke End barrelled roof which shows it as pretty much down at ground level. So they must have knocked it down then banked up the front section, then later banked up the whole thing back to the perimeter wall as far back as the houses at a later date:  I believe they kept the oval shape of the ground at the Stoke end for a while, even after the Boothen End had been built. So it was semi-oval for a while there. |
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 7, 2017 14:36:17 GMT
I've had a quick go at screen grabbing a panoramic view from some archive game footage. Not all the edges match up (mainly in the Stoke End / Butler Street corner) but it gives a rough idea of how things might have looked from the Boothen End. Sources - The images below are all screen grabbed from The Boothen Ends VHS. The narration mentions our record home crowd of 31,800 vs. Wolves in the FA Cup in 1908, so I take it these could well be pictures from the game in question. Upon researching this fixture it was played on 7th March 1908 in the fourth round of the cup. We lost 0-1. (not sure if we sang 'Wanky, Wanky Wanderers' as the footage is silent!) -- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907%E2%80%9308_Stoke_F.C._season Also, managed to get another panoramic of the Butler Street side of the ground  |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 15:07:40 GMT
I've had a quick go at screen grabbing a panoramic view from some archive game footage. Not all the edges match up (mainly in the Stoke End / Butler Street corner) but it gives a rough idea of how things might have looked from the Boothen End. Sources - The images below are all screen grabbed from The Boothen Ends VHS. The narration mentions our record home crowd of 31,800 vs. Wolves in the FA Cup in 1908, so I take it these could well be pictures from the game in question. Upon researching this fixture it was played on 7th March 1908 in the fourth round of the cup. We lost 0-1. (not sure if we sang 'Wanky, Wanky Wanderers' as the footage is silent!) -- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907%E2%80%9308_Stoke_F.C._seasonAlso, managed to get another panoramic of the Butler Street side of the ground
Great effort on the panoramic view mate.
I'm pretty certain though that the footage you've used is from the Port Vale game of 1920.
It's definitely post 1919 because the 'new' Boothen Stand can be seen.
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Post by davethebass on Mar 7, 2017 15:09:31 GMT
I lived in Fletcher Rd 77-79 and the roof of my house is in some of these pics! It's so interesting to see how much has changed, and how much has stayed the same over the years.
What a fascinating thread, great stuff!
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Post by lagwafis on Mar 7, 2017 15:23:15 GMT
I've had a quick go at screen grabbing a panoramic view from some archive game footage. Not all the edges match up (mainly in the Stoke End / Butler Street corner) but it gives a rough idea of how things might have looked from the Boothen End. Sources - The images below are all screen grabbed from The Boothen Ends VHS. The narration mentions our record home crowd of 31,800 vs. Wolves in the FA Cup in 1908, so I take it these could well be pictures from the game in question. Upon researching this fixture it was played on 7th March 1908 in the fourth round of the cup. We lost 0-1. (not sure if we sang 'Wanky, Wanky Wanderers' as the footage is silent!) -- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907%E2%80%9308_Stoke_F.C._seasonAlso, managed to get another panoramic of the Butler Street side of the ground
Great effort on the panoramic view mate.
I'm pretty certain though that the footage you've used is from the Port Vale game of 1920.
It's definitely post 1919 because the 'new' Boothen Stand can be seen.
Beat me to it Paul - I've just this minute put on 'The History of Stoke City' video and the exact same footage appears only this time it's against Vale in 1919! (0-0, 27,000 attendance) It's getting tricky to figure out where footage relates to events in much of the older recordings. Hopefully this thread will come in useful if any historians gets round to updating any records. |
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 7, 2017 17:53:52 GMT
As everyone in those old pics is standing at ground level, could it be the case that soil from around the edges of the pitch were dug out and used to bank up the Stoke end?
All the paddocks and the ends were eventually below pitch level hence the white walls.
Just a thought
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Post by mickstupp on Mar 7, 2017 17:56:22 GMT
Great thread, absolutely fantastic images of the old place.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2017 18:21:21 GMT
Great effort on the panoramic view mate.
I'm pretty certain though that the footage you've used is from the Port Vale game of 1920.
It's definitely post 1919 because the 'new' Boothen Stand can be seen.
Beat me to it Paul - I've just this minute put on 'The History of Stoke City' video and the exact same footage appears only this time it's against Vale in 1919! (0-0, 27,000 attendance) It's getting tricky to figure out where footage relates to events in much of the older recordings. Hopefully this thread will come in useful if any historians gets round to updating any records.
We were both readmitted into the Football League in 1919 mate and the first match after that was at Vale's Old Recreation Ground on the 6th March 1920 followed a week later by our home game at the Vic on the 13th March 1920, which is when the footage was filmed and yes it was 0-0 with an attendance of 27,000.
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