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Post by partickpotter on Aug 9, 2015 9:58:39 GMT
Is clause 4 going to make a comeback? Jeremy Corbyn could bring back Labour’s clause IV on public ownershipWould certainly ensure there is a clear ideological space between Labour and the Tories. Would it improve Labour's prospects of being elected? I think not. The next few weeks are going to be very interesting. I think though that no matter who gets elected this leadership contest has handed the Tories (and their media friends) more than enough ammunition to pound Labour with in the next election. Labour I think are heading down a long dark road. The article stresses he's interested in bringing back some key sectors into public ownership. Still if the majority of people are happy for Gideon to sell off everything on the cheap then so be it. I'm not. Fair enough. But why raise Clause 4 with all the connotations that has. He's handing the Tories a big stick to beat Labour with regardless of who wins. And beat them they most certainly will. He is an electoral liability. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 9, 2015 10:14:50 GMT
The article stresses he's interested in bringing back some key sectors into public ownership. Still if the majority of people are happy for Gideon to sell off everything on the cheap then so be it. I'm not. Fair enough. But why raise Clause 4 with all the connotations that has. He's handing the Tories a big stick to beat Labour with regardless of who wins. And beat them they most certainly will. He is an electoral liability. So I'm being told, constantly. Eloquently by yourself thank you. Whatever happens it's going to be interesting and has at least opened up the debate which has gone unchallenged for 30 years. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 10:21:36 GMT
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 9, 2015 10:27:48 GMT
Fair enough. But why raise Clause 4 with all the connotations that has. He's handing the Tories a big stick to beat Labour with regardless of who wins. And beat them they most certainly will. He is an electoral liability. So I'm being told, constantly. Eloquently by yourself thank you. Whatever happens it's going to be interesting and has at least opened up the debate which has gone unchallenged for 30 years. Exactly - that's the point; it's an internal debate Labour needs to have. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 9, 2015 10:28:56 GMT
Fair enough. But why raise Clause 4 with all the connotations that has. He's handing the Tories a big stick to beat Labour with regardless of who wins. And beat them they most certainly will. He is an electoral liability. So I'm being told, constantly. Eloquently by yourself thank you. Whatever happens it's going to be interesting and has at least opened up the debate which has gone unchallenged for 30 years. Again - fair enough. But don't couch the debate in the language of the past - particularly a past as fractious as the 1970s. Labour need to find a language that talks to the future not the past. Corbyn doesn't do that which is why he would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 9, 2015 10:32:24 GMT
So I'm being told, constantly. Eloquently by yourself thank you. Whatever happens it's going to be interesting and has at least opened up the debate which has gone unchallenged for 30 years. Again - fair enough. But don't couch the debate in the language of the past - particularly a past as fractious as the 1970s. Labour need to find a language that talks to the future not the past. Corbyn doesn't do that which is why he would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour. I'm not sure he is using the language of the past myself. He certainly is very strong on stuff like clean and green energy policy for example. He stresses in the article the notion of a "new" type of public ownership not as I read it a return to the old one. However it's just my opinion and again if all it does is open up the debate for Labour, then that can only be a good thing. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 9, 2015 10:33:42 GMT
Oh dear.........  |
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Post by kbillyh on Aug 9, 2015 20:11:04 GMT
Nothings changed on this thread it seems. Ukipers telling us that Corbyn is a liability......because they care so much.
Ok chaps.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 9, 2015 20:48:01 GMT
I'm not sure if it's nostalgia but I'd be happy to vote Labour again. I suppose they'd like me and the millions of others to vote for them again. I wonder what's likely to make this happen? For me it would be coming up with some sort of credible economic plan, start looking out for the average worker not the average shirker, sorting out the high rate of immigration (the only solution would be to leave the EU) and to provide the country a strong armed forces with the tools to do the job (including a Trident replacement).
IMHO it's unlikely to happen, so I'll be most likely voting UKIP again, as I imagine will be many more of the deserters and there will be another Tory government in 2020. I'm sure then Labour can have another debate on where it all went wrong.
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 9, 2015 21:38:32 GMT
.....sorting out the high rate of immigration (the only solution would be to leave the EU)...... If you come out of the EU all of those people at Calais get sent straight through the Channel Tunnel, with a letter from the EU, saying... "Dear UKIP Thank you for your recent correspondence and for cancelling all previous individual and collective economic and border arrangements. In light of this, the UK Govt will no longer be allowed to hold a border control in Calais (or any other part of the EU) as this forms part of both the EU Economic and Schengen areas. In addition, the governments of the EU member states will no longer have any individual or collective legal obligation to consider UK interests in relation to the issue of migration to and from the EU Economic Area (including previously opted out Schengen Area). Any previous arrangements involving asylum seekers are void in so much as the European Court of Human Rights deems fit and proper. The UK is now exempt from EU immigration and asylum restrictions. UK citizens and workers within the EU economic area will no longer receive the same benefits and rights as EU citizens and workers. As such, UK citizens and workers shall no longer hold the right to free movement. This includes any benefits relating to parity on EU taxation and pay and conditions. In some instances UK citizens and workers may need to pay a border levy in order to enter the EU through some member states. This decision is held entirely at the discretion of individual EU member states. In light of your correspondence, you will also need to pay a tariff in order to trade with the EU Economic Area and Free Trade Zone, should you wish to do so. The terms of trade and the set cost of trade tariff are entirely at the discretion of the EU. We recommend that you consult Norway about this. However it should be noted that Norway has never benefitted from EU Membership and, as such, has no prior knowledge of the fiscal impact of such an economic shift. It should also be noted that, as your decision precludes, you shall be exempt forthwith from any EU-wide fishing, free trade, immigration, economic and diplomatic negotiations and any subsequent agreements borne from them. Any previous agreements relating to these are now null and void. If you would like to arrange individual agreements with individual countries in relation to any part of the Treaties previously held collectively with the EU, you will need to seek independent legal advice. The EU negotiates Treaties on a collective basis and, therefore, any agreement with any individual member states must be agreed to by all member states. We wish you all the very best. EU" |
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Post by Biblical on Aug 9, 2015 22:01:07 GMT
So I'm being told, constantly. Eloquently by yourself thank you. Whatever happens it's going to be interesting and has at least opened up the debate which has gone unchallenged for 30 years. Again - fair enough. But don't couch the debate in the language of the past - particularly a past as fractious as the 1970s. Labour need to find a language that talks to the future not the past. Corbyn doesn't do that which is why he would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour. Corbyn has caught the attention and won the support of a number of young people. |
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 9, 2015 22:07:40 GMT
Again - fair enough. But don't couch the debate in the language of the past - particularly a past as fractious as the 1970s. Labour need to find a language that talks to the future not the past. Corbyn doesn't do that which is why he would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour. Corbyn has caught the attention and won the support of a number of young people. That's undeniably true and is to be applauded, Cookie. It's just that, in terms of the Labour Party as a whole, the party needs someone who can unite all factions. Corbyn has some great points to make on welfare and housing - however his defence policy is horrific. Stella Creasy has had a great idea today by announcing that, rather than reinstate Clause 4, Labour should consider co-operatives in terms of both rail and energy sectors. It's a great idea. Far better than renationalisation and is more likely to unite the party. Labour Party moderates In the centre and those on the right of the party aren't going to buy Clause 4 and it's going to be divisive. Clause 4 is undeniably the language of a bygone era. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 22:17:43 GMT
Again - fair enough. But don't couch the debate in the language of the past - particularly a past as fractious as the 1970s. Labour need to find a language that talks to the future not the past. Corbyn doesn't do that which is why he would be an unmitigated disaster for Labour. Corbyn has caught the attention and won the support of a number of young people. Yes .....I saw one being interviewed on the news......  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 9, 2015 23:34:11 GMT
I'm not sure if it's nostalgia but I'd be happy to vote Labour again. I suppose they'd like me and the millions of others to vote for them again. I wonder what's likely to make this happen? For me it would be coming up with some sort of credible economic plan, start looking out for the average worker not the average shirker, sorting out the high rate of immigration (the only solution would be to leave the EU) and to provide the country a strong armed forces with the tools to do the job (including a Trident replacement). IMHO it's unlikely to happen, so I'll be most likely voting UKIP again, as I imagine will be many more of the deserters and there will be another Tory government in 2020. I'm sure then Labour can have another debate on where it all went wrong. Very True Boothenboy The position on EU membership is the one issue which the leadership contenders seem to have avoided ( at least as it is the major political issue this country faces at present ). Of the four candidates I believe that Corbyn has been more forthright on this. He seems to he edging his bets on this one as far as I can make out......which I guess is the best he can do as part of this particular campaign. As I understand it ,he has said that he wants to negotiate from within ( impossible actually as our democracy and membership of the concept are contradictory ), but has not ruled out our withdrawal. This is not a UKIP issue but one for the Labour party to address. |
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 9, 2015 23:44:59 GMT
I'm not sure if it's nostalgia but I'd be happy to vote Labour again. I suppose they'd like me and the millions of others to vote for them again. I wonder what's likely to make this happen? For me it would be coming up with some sort of credible economic plan, start looking out for the average worker not the average shirker, sorting out the high rate of immigration (the only solution would be to leave the EU) and to provide the country a strong armed forces with the tools to do the job (including a Trident replacement). IMHO it's unlikely to happen, so I'll be most likely voting UKIP again, as I imagine will be many more of the deserters and there will be another Tory government in 2020. I'm sure then Labour can have another debate on where it all went wrong. Very True Boothenboy The position on EU membership is the one issue which the leadership contenders seem to have avoided ( at least as it is the major political issue this country faces at present ). Of the four candidates I believe that Corbyn has been more forthright on this. He seems to he edging his bets on this one as far as I can make out......which I guess is the best he can do as part of this particular campaign. As I understand it ,he has said that he wants to negotiate from within ( impossible actually as our democracy and membership of the concept are contradictory ), but has not ruled out our withdrawal. This is not a UKIP issue but one for the Labour party to address. That's incorrect. Collectively, the Labour position on the EU (as things stand) is to campaign to stay in the EU. Each leadership candidate, apart from Corbyn, wants to campaign to stay in the EU and has categorically said this during the leadership debates and hustings. Corbyn came out the other week and said that he'd be happy campaigning to come out. He then changed his mind. On the EU, as with NATO and strategic defence, Corbyn is weak. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 10, 2015 0:02:31 GMT
See what I mean Mumf
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 6:00:31 GMT
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Post by Biblical on Aug 10, 2015 7:58:22 GMT
Corbyn has caught the attention and won the support of a number of young people. Yes .....I saw one being interviewed on the news...... Sorry is that supposed to be funny?  |
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deadwood
Lads'n'Dads
Prime Minister Corbyn
Posts: 68
Location: Pai, Thailand
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Post by deadwood on Aug 10, 2015 7:58:46 GMT
Hi everyone! First post, after reading the posts on here I couldn't resist joining given all the debate within the Labour Party right now.I think that Jeremy Corbyn is a real shining light for UK politics - please go easy on me!
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Post by stokeharry on Aug 10, 2015 8:53:20 GMT
I'm not sure if it's nostalgia but I'd be happy to vote Labour again. I suppose they'd like me and the millions of others to vote for them again. I wonder what's likely to make this happen? For me it would be coming up with some sort of credible economic plan, start looking out for the average worker not the average shirker, sorting out the high rate of immigration (the only solution would be to leave the EU) and to provide the country a strong armed forces with the tools to do the job (including a Trident replacement). IMHO it's unlikely to happen, so I'll be most likely voting UKIP again, as I imagine will be many more of the deserters and there will be another Tory government in 2020. I'm sure then Labour can have another debate on where it all went wrong. Very True Boothenboy The position on EU membership is the one issue which the leadership contenders seem to have avoided ( at least as it is the major political issue this country faces at present ). Of the four candidates I believe that Corbyn has been more forthright on this. He seems to he edging his bets on this one as far as I can make out......which I guess is the best he can do as part of this particular campaign. As I understand it ,he has said that he wants to negotiate from within ( impossible actually as our democracy and membership of the concept are contradictory ), but has not ruled out our withdrawal. This is not a UKIP issue but one for the Labour party to address. Correct. I for one hope Corbyn becomes leader of the Labour party because that will finish Labour off. It will be the final nail in Labours coffin. Corbyn only appeals to people that are a crisp short of a packet. He and his views and way of doing things is outdated and Sol Campbell has more chance of become PM . I hope Corbyn becomes Labour leader because seeing Labour rotting from the inside out will be sweet revenge for what they did under Blair . When Labour thought it was funny to open the flood gates and change this country forever due to mass immigration and then to rub our nose in it they destroyed this country and that will never be forgotten or forgiven. Let's hope the gormless and the easily led that support Corbyn get their way because then it will be them that will be getting their noses well and truly rubbed in it. Hell will freeze over before I vote for Labour again. Thankfully the British people do not welcome or want this individual or the Labour party as a whole anymore  Thumbs up |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 10, 2015 9:07:52 GMT
Retweeted Hicham Yezza (@hichamyezza):
By the way, @jeremycorbyn is now the only candidate whose economic analysis has been publicly endorsed by 2 Nobel-Prize-winning economists.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 10, 2015 9:09:49 GMT
Well I also hope that Corbyn becomes the next Labour leader, however I think it will be good news for the Party. None of the current candidates has a hope of winning the next election, at least with Corbyn at the helm, the Labour Party can start to act like an opposition rather than saying that the Tories are wrong, then going along with their policies anyway!
Labour has no identity, and Corbyn is the only candidate that can give it one. Whether it's the right one is another matter, but I'm sick of having no choice with regard to the main political parties.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 9:11:39 GMT
.........Sprogitt & Slyvestre .....For the smarter investor ....Innit ?
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deadwood
Lads'n'Dads
Prime Minister Corbyn
Posts: 68
Location: Pai, Thailand
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Post by deadwood on Aug 10, 2015 9:16:34 GMT
Very True Boothenboy The position on EU membership is the one issue which the leadership contenders seem to have avoided ( at least as it is the major political issue this country faces at present ). Of the four candidates I believe that Corbyn has been more forthright on this. He seems to he edging his bets on this one as far as I can make out......which I guess is the best he can do as part of this particular campaign. As I understand it ,he has said that he wants to negotiate from within ( impossible actually as our democracy and membership of the concept are contradictory ), but has not ruled out our withdrawal. This is not a UKIP issue but one for the Labour party to address. Correct. I for one hope Corbyn becomes leader of the Labour party because that will finish Labour off. It will be the final nail in Labours coffin. Corbyn only appeals to people that are a crisp short of a packet. He and his views and way of doing things is outdated and Sol Campbell has more chance of become PM . I hope Corbyn becomes Labour leader because seeing Labour rotting from the inside out will be sweet revenge for what they did under Blair . When Labour thought it was funny to open the flood gates and change this country forever due to mass immigration and then to rub our nose in it they destroyed this country and that will never be forgotten or forgiven. Let's hope the gormless and the easily led that support Corbyn get their way because then it will be them that will be getting their noses well and truly rubbed in it. Hell will freeze over before I vote for Labour again. Thumbs up I think that's "New Labour" though Harry. Blair and Co. were essentially nowt to do with the labour movement.This is what Corbyn is saying (i think) |
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Post by boothenboy75 on Aug 10, 2015 9:39:23 GMT
.....sorting out the high rate of immigration (the only solution would be to leave the EU)...... If you come out of the EU all of those people at Calais get sent straight through the Channel Tunnel, with a letter from the EU, saying... "Dear UKIP Thank you for your recent correspondence and for cancelling all previous individual and collective economic and border arrangements. In light of this, the UK Govt will no longer be allowed to hold a border control in Calais (or any other part of the EU) as this forms part of both the EU Economic and Schengen areas. In addition, the governments of the EU member states will no longer have any individual or collective legal obligation to consider UK interests in relation to the issue of migration to and from the EU Economic Area (including previously opted out Schengen Area). Any previous arrangements involving asylum seekers are void in so much as the European Court of Human Rights deems fit and proper. The UK is now exempt from EU immigration and asylum restrictions. UK citizens and workers within the EU economic area will no longer receive the same benefits and rights as EU citizens and workers. As such, UK citizens and workers shall no longer hold the right to free movement. This includes any benefits relating to parity on EU taxation and pay and conditions. In some instances UK citizens and workers may need to pay a border levy in order to enter the EU through some member states. This decision is held entirely at the discretion of individual EU member states. In light of your correspondence, you will also need to pay a tariff in order to trade with the EU Economic Area and Free Trade Zone, should you wish to do so. The terms of trade and the set cost of trade tariff are entirely at the discretion of the EU. We recommend that you consult Norway about this. However it should be noted that Norway has never benefitted from EU Membership and, as such, has no prior knowledge of the fiscal impact of such an economic shift. It should also be noted that, as your decision precludes, you shall be exempt forthwith from any EU-wide fishing, free trade, immigration, economic and diplomatic negotiations and any subsequent agreements borne from them. Any previous agreements relating to these are now null and void. If you would like to arrange individual agreements with individual countries in relation to any part of the Treaties previously held collectively with the EU, you will need to seek independent legal advice. The EU negotiates Treaties on a collective basis and, therefore, any agreement with any individual member states must be agreed to by all member states. We wish you all the very best. EU" Is there any part of the fear and lies that our governments peddle us that you haven't swallowed whole? I remember hearing all of this when they tried to bounce us into the Euro. We were all going to end up on the dole, we would receive no outside investment, we'd end up having to join anyway......blah, blah, blah. All lies and scaremongering for the spineless and the gullible. Those who are really gullible believe it all again now. Seeing as the EU export far more to us than we do to them (the only trading block we run a deficit with), they are not going to cut off their noses to spite their faces. And even if they did, we'd end up doing better overall anyway. They can wave through the few thousand migrants at Calais if they want to. Under international law we could send them back anyway. Again the few thousand at Calais is a drop in the ocean compared to the hundreds of thousands that are waved through every year. Norway is a wonderful country who have had the good sense to never join the EU and have benefitted massively. To bring them up as some sort of case for staying in is most strange. Should we be excluded from Eu wide agreements, this can only be a good thing. Seeing as you brought it up it's hardly gone well for our fishing industry, which has been all but destroyed due to EU agreements. Do you really believe that nay country would start charging a levy at the border for tourists. (rofl) And if they did could we not just match this levy at our own border for their tourists. Finally why have you addressed the letter Dear Ukip? There are many sensible folk from all political parties who oppose our EU membership. |
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Post by stokeharry on Aug 10, 2015 9:58:40 GMT
Correct. I for one hope Corbyn becomes leader of the Labour party because that will finish Labour off. It will be the final nail in Labours coffin. Corbyn only appeals to people that are a crisp short of a packet. He and his views and way of doing things is outdated and Sol Campbell has more chance of become PM . I hope Corbyn becomes Labour leader because seeing Labour rotting from the inside out will be sweet revenge for what they did under Blair . When Labour thought it was funny to open the flood gates and change this country forever due to mass immigration and then to rub our nose in it they destroyed this country and that will never be forgotten or forgiven. Let's hope the gormless and the easily led that support Corbyn get their way because then it will be them that will be getting their noses well and truly rubbed in it. Hell will freeze over before I vote for Labour again. Thumbs up I think that's "New Labour" though Harry. Blair and Co. were essentially nowt to do with the labour movement.This is what Corbyn is saying (i think) Same organisation. It's like someone different than Hitler taking over the Nazi party in WWII and tweaking a few things. His line of thought is the same and he's guilty by association . Unless he says he wants to close the borders and deport those that Blair allowed in then he can swivel if he thinks he'll get my vote and plenty of other people think the same . Everyone is motivated by different things. Some will agree with me and some won't, that's fine , but my views and opinions aren't for changing |
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deadwood
Lads'n'Dads
Prime Minister Corbyn
Posts: 68
Location: Pai, Thailand
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Post by deadwood on Aug 10, 2015 10:49:16 GMT
Where were your opinions formed? Honest question.  |
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Post by stokeharry on Aug 10, 2015 10:54:47 GMT
Where were your opinions formed? Honest question. In the real world. What about yours . Honest question |
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deadwood
Lads'n'Dads
Prime Minister Corbyn
Posts: 68
Location: Pai, Thailand
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Post by deadwood on Aug 10, 2015 11:01:35 GMT
Some in the real world, some online, some riding vespa's, some DJing some debating with my brothers. A Cambridge degree in psychology led to a career in inventing bicycles. www.factionbikestudio.com |
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Post by stokeharry on Aug 10, 2015 11:03:47 GMT
Some in the real world, some online, some riding vespa's, some DJing some debating with my brothers. A Cambridge degree in psychology led to a career in inventing bicycles. www.factionbikestudio.comI like to ride my bike |
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