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Post by Clem Fandango on Jun 20, 2014 13:16:56 GMT
While the defence is in this state its criminal he's not been given a good go. Whether he's good or not remains to be seen however he is not miles apart in terms of quality from either Cahill or Jagelka. Woy now needs to take a look at the pool of english centre halves and assess them again. He's got plenty of opportunity and really there shouldn't be any excuse.
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boozo
Lads'n'Dads
Posts: 82
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Post by boozo on Jun 20, 2014 13:18:51 GMT
and with regards to the other players such as lahm - i am referring to the sort of quality we should be looking to produce for the national side
swapping cahill or jagilka for shawcross would have made no difference whatsoever in either game
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 20, 2014 13:59:01 GMT
and with regards to the other players such as lahm - i am referring to the sort of quality we should be looking to produce for the national side swapping cahill or jagilka for shawcross would have made no difference whatsoever in either game Since Ryan is better in purely defensive ability than Cahill or Jagilka - maybe not in terms of looking as comfortable on the ball - he would make a tangible improvement to the England defence. I have said it for years - we need one CB who attacks the ball (Adam, Terry, Butcher) and one who sits and covers. Both Cahill and Jagilka are the covering type. Neither attack the ball. That's Ryan's forte.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 14:08:35 GMT
I think that Shawcross should be in Brazil, but only following a slow, intelligent integration into the squad - such as Cahill and Jagielka have been afforded. Ryan would be their equal if this had happened, at the very least.
For some reason it doesn't seem that Ryan will be given this chance, he might be selected for England again one day, but it'll be under the same terms as before.
That said, Cahill and Jagielka (who has been dodgy) have been on a hiding to nothing. The full backs have been all over the place and Gerrard and Henderson are no shield to a defence, as Liverpool have demonstrated with their goals against column this season.
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Post by hooftastic on Jun 20, 2014 14:08:47 GMT
Na, Roy and the media prefer those modern fancy pants defenders who can't defend but look all pretty on the ball.
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Post by drfishy on Jun 20, 2014 15:43:21 GMT
I see there are a lot of expert opinions saying Ryan is not international standard, based on the mistake he made in his debut when he slipped and allowed Ibrahimovi? to score(and that he plays for Stoke). Well he had just come on to the pitch and it could be said that Cahill should have taken Ibrahimovic as senior player allowing Ryan to look after the lesser striker. Also Ibrahimovi? was having an excellent game that night, looking World Class, so I doubt many international defenders would have been able to do that much against him in that game. Ryan is a bloody good defender, and has improved considerably since that game, and with the new style we play now looks much more of a ball player as well. He can organise and DEFEND - something which England have struggled to do properly for the last few matches. So he should have been given an opportunity, or at least been called into the squad, whether he goes onto become international class remains to be seen. But he should be given a chance.
That said, I'm happy for our sake that he has not been called up as he has proven a rock for us this season, and if he did look good in an England shirt you can be sure top 4 teams would be sniffing around.
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Post by metalhead on Jun 20, 2014 16:19:12 GMT
For what it's worth, neither Jagielka or Cahill are fit to lace Geoff Cameron's boots either after last nights catastrophic performance.
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Post by numpty40 on Jun 20, 2014 17:06:15 GMT
he might be in the same mould - but what i am saying is he is no where near as good as Butcher, Adams or Terry. You may be happy wanting a 2nd rate England side, Im not. Should he be their in front of Jagielka - debateable. Ahead of Cahill - not a chance I suggest you have a watch more closely at the England v Sweden game that Ryan has been so castigated for. I think it's fair to say you could question Cahill's positioning and lack of defensive decisions on three of the four Sweden goals. Again look at his poor defensive positions on the two goals that have beaten England during this world cup and I fail to agree that Cahill is better than Shawcross. Cahill switches off during games and this is costly. I actually think Cahill was the best of our back four last night but the truth is he was nowhere near the centre forward for the winning goal and that has ultimately lost us the game.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 20, 2014 17:17:04 GMT
For what it's worth, neither Jagielka or Cahill are fit to lace Geoff Cameron's boots either after last nights catastrophic performance. Careful lol ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) Jagielka and Cahill don't attack the counters infront of them that is my biggest criticism of the two, they instead of stopping someone running at them, they end up turning and running with faster players, England needs to recognize this mistake they allow time and again.
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Post by bignickhowes on Jun 20, 2014 18:31:36 GMT
its fair enough you bigging your own players up but all im saying is he isn't better than cahill or jags, get over it That's your opinion Nicholas. It's a fucking ridiculous one but you're entitled to it. Personally, I'd be devastated at the thought of Cahill replacing Ryan at Stoke. I don't actually mind jagielka (even though he was shit last night) but again I wouldn't swap our captain for him. lol fair play to you
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 20, 2014 19:15:28 GMT
Not a soul mentioning him on 5 Live ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/4tzqvp1fxEemag_TAXLJ.gif) It's cruel that brief debut appearance cost him but I truly think it has stamped 'not international class' on him now.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 20, 2014 20:06:15 GMT
he might be in the same mould - but what i am saying is he is no where near as good as Butcher, Adams or Terry. You may be happy wanting a 2nd rate England side, Im not. Should he be their in front of Jagielka - debateable. Ahead of Cahill - not a chance Actually - Butcher and Adams are very good comparisons to Shawcross in that all three are first and foremost defenders. I doubt Butcher would have got much game time for England if he was playing today.
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Post by oatcakesteve on Jun 20, 2014 20:32:51 GMT
For what it's worth, neither Jagielka or Cahill are fit to lace Geoff Cameron's boots either after last nights catastrophic performance. Careful lol ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) Jagielka and Cahill don't attack the counters infront of them that is my biggest criticism of the two, they instead of stopping someone running at them, they end up turning and running with faster players, England needs to recognize this mistake they allow time and again. Also in the England vs Sweden game, Ryan came pretty close to stopping Ibrahimovic's worldy. No doubt he's good enough, but he plays for lowly Stoke. Fuck off Roy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 0:44:10 GMT
he might be in the same mould - but what i am saying is he is no where near as good as Butcher, Adams or Terry. You may be happy wanting a 2nd rate England side, Im not. Should he be their in front of Jagielka - debateable. Ahead of Cahill - not a chance Actually - Butcher and Adams are very good comparisons to Shawcross in that all three are first and foremost defenders. I doubt Butcher would have got much game time for England if he was playing today. My point exactly, all top defenders, folk forget how much defending is a part of the game. We are preoccupied with looking good rather than being effective at what they do.The dirty graft solid defending we are not capable of doing atm.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jun 21, 2014 8:24:22 GMT
Irrespective of who people think should or shouldn't play, Ryan on form alone should have gone to Brazil.
He had another almost flawless season and outshone all the big name English central defenders.
Would we still be in this position? Possibly so but I can't believe he'd have defended the goals we conceded as poorly as Cahill and Jagielka did over the two matches so far and from what we saw over the course of last season he's every bit as good on the ball as England's "premier" defensive duo.
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Post by geoff321 on Jun 21, 2014 8:33:04 GMT
You're saying in effect Jamo that a guy with 20 minutes international football experience could be thrown in against the Italians, no manager would do that.
It's totally different to say Hodgson should have watched him and selected him prior to the World Cup, that may be true, but he didn't and that's the reality fans of Shawcross have to face up too.
In any case he has a chance to fight for his place from now on.
England have some big problems, but the Shawcross issue isn't one of them, it's just a relatively trivial issue which the rest of the country isn't even talking about.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jun 21, 2014 8:40:10 GMT
You're saying in effect Jamo that a guy with 20 minutes international football experience could be thrown in against the Italians, no manager would do that. It's totally different to say Hodgson should have watched him and selected him prior to the World Cup, that may be true, but he didn't and that's the reality fans of Shawcross have to face up too. In any case he has a chance to fight for his place from now on. England have some big problems, but the Shawcross issue isn't one of them, it's just a relatively trivial issue which the rest of the country isn't even talking about. The rest of the country, like you Geoff123, are complete and utter muppets who have been fooled into thinking defenders in poor teams need to play like Beckenbeur (sp?). It is utter bullshit and experienced or otherwise, Ryan is better and more defensively aware than Jagielka and Cahill. The biggest tragedy is that Ryan has no experience. Given the shit that has played for England these past 2 years, Ryan should have 20 caps at least by now. John Stones is the new candidate for England. You couldn't make that shit up but that is what the rest of the country are talking about!
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Post by kristoff on Jun 21, 2014 8:56:51 GMT
People say they want passion, intensity and the drive youd expect from an England team. If thats so it worrys me how players like Ryan, Milner ect dont get much game time. Neither are great on the ball, but they do what they are supposed to do well. Your telling me someone liek Suarez after that surgery would be happy going toe to toe with a hard tackler like Ryan. Not a chance. I dont want my defenders being tippy tappy, 1 doing it is enough. I dont watch enough premier football to know if there are any other old fashioned center backs for england, but for me, ryan (or another Cb in the same mould) playing along side someone like cahill with the knowledge they will have a fair few games together wouldve given us a far better defense. Even better if we'd tried to put a ball winner in front of them. Again they dont need to be great on the ball, that is what Gerrard and Henderson were supposed to be for (Not that they were any good).
So fucking sick of this obsession that every player on the pitch needs to have the silky skills of sir stan.
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Post by Miles Offside on Jun 21, 2014 9:33:11 GMT
Ryan is suffering the same fate as did Huddy decades ago.
Both should have had a shed load of caps, but both were overlooked by incompetent managers.
After Kompany, Ryan's the best out-and-out defensive CB in the country - which makes him the best English one by a mile.
I can't imagine there being many Stoke fans (or Premier League managers for that matter) who would rather have any of the current England CBs in their team.
The tragedy is that he's 26 now and, unless he's chosen for the Euros in two years time (unlikely with Hodgson in charge) there's virtually no chance of him being called up at the age of 30 for the next World Cup.
All that would change, of course, with Ryan being transferred to one of the top four clubs.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jun 21, 2014 9:40:38 GMT
You're saying in effect Jamo that a guy with 20 minutes international football experience could be thrown in against the Italians, no manager would do that. It's totally different to say Hodgson should have watched him and selected him prior to the World Cup, that may be true, but he didn't and that's the reality fans of Shawcross have to face up too. In any case he has a chance to fight for his place from now on. England have some big problems, but the Shawcross issue isn't one of them, it's just a relatively trivial issue which the rest of the country isn't even talking about. That's the point I'm making. Ryan shouldn't only have 20 minutes of experience but we have a totally useless prick as England manager who couldn't even be arsed to have him watched. Ryan isn't and never will be the answer to England's problems and I don't think you're going to find anyone who has suggested that is the case but does that mean it can't be discussed? England's problem (in this tournament anyway) is that we have a manager who got it totally and utterly wrong. His system was flawed and his selections incorrect. International football is won and lost in midfield so what did our fucking half wit of a manger do? Play two holding players with no other specialist midfielders in the team. We were left exposed and totally out numbered in key areas and that alone is reason enough to sack the senile old fucker. He then shoe horned a player into the team without really having really having a place for him. He also decided to leave our most experienced and fully fit defender out of the squad. England have many issues to sort in respect of developing players but this tournament and the struggles throughout qualification lie at the door of the manager and he should be removed from his position.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jun 21, 2014 9:48:58 GMT
You're saying in effect Jamo that a guy with 20 minutes international football experience could be thrown in against the Italians, no manager would do that. It's totally different to say Hodgson should have watched him and selected him prior to the World Cup, that may be true, but he didn't and that's the reality fans of Shawcross have to face up too. In any case he has a chance to fight for his place from now on. England have some big problems, but the Shawcross issue isn't one of them, it's just a relatively trivial issue which the rest of the country isn't even talking about. John Stones? Luke Shaw?
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Post by kristoff on Jun 21, 2014 9:52:23 GMT
You're saying in effect Jamo that a guy with 20 minutes international football experience could be thrown in against the Italians, no manager would do that. It's totally different to say Hodgson should have watched him and selected him prior to the World Cup, that may be true, but he didn't and that's the reality fans of Shawcross have to face up too. In any case he has a chance to fight for his place from now on. England have some big problems, but the Shawcross issue isn't one of them, it's just a relatively trivial issue which the rest of the country isn't even talking about. That's the point I'm making. Ryan shouldn't only have 20 minutes of experience but we have a totally useless prick as England manager who couldn't even be arsed to have him watched. Ryan isn't and never will be the answer to England's problems and I don't think you're going to find anyone who has suggested that is the case but does that mean it can't be discussed? England's problem (in this tournament anyway) is that we have a manager who got it totally and utterly wrong. His system was flawed and his selections incorrect. International football is won and lost in midfield so what did our fucking half wit of a manger do? Play two holding players with no other specialist midfielders in the team. We were left exposed and totally out numbered in key areas and that alone is reason enough to sack the senile old fucker. He then shoe horned a player into the team without really having really having a place for him. He also decided to leave our most experienced and fully fit defender out of the squad. England have many issues to sort in respect of developing players but this tournament and the struggles throughout qualification lie at the door of the manager and he should be removed from his position. If your referring to Terry as the fully fit defender, he was dropped for a reason. He is a damn disgrace to the country, we moan about Suarez ect, but at least they generally behave off the pitch, this guy is scum, comes from scum and will always be scum. Just look up the words terry and controversy and that there should tell you why he is nowhere near the squad and rightfully so
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 10:20:19 GMT
I'm glad that Ryan hasn't been part of this joke of a team.
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Post by takeshikovacs on Jun 21, 2014 10:29:34 GMT
Me too..the media would have found their scapegoat then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 11:14:49 GMT
The difference is we take players who will never play,Shaw, Stones an injured Ox whereas other teams leave them at home. We should be more ruthless in our selection process where injuries are concerned . Jags was not fully fit and only had a short time playing at the end of the domestic season. England have form for taking such players, hoping they get fit instead of picking a fully fit player.Ryan could and should have gone on form and the fact that he can defend. Even if he did not get picked to play the experience is vital because my honest opinion is that he will become a future linchpin of our national defence in years to come. Yes we look through Stoke tinted glasses when talking about our captain but by the same token some on here do him an injustice as to his ability. At the moment I can't think of a better defender who is English. If some our own fans do not appreciate him is it any wonder others dont.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jun 21, 2014 11:32:20 GMT
That's the point I'm making. Ryan shouldn't only have 20 minutes of experience but we have a totally useless prick as England manager who couldn't even be arsed to have him watched. Ryan isn't and never will be the answer to England's problems and I don't think you're going to find anyone who has suggested that is the case but does that mean it can't be discussed? England's problem (in this tournament anyway) is that we have a manager who got it totally and utterly wrong. His system was flawed and his selections incorrect. International football is won and lost in midfield so what did our fucking half wit of a manger do? Play two holding players with no other specialist midfielders in the team. We were left exposed and totally out numbered in key areas and that alone is reason enough to sack the senile old fucker. He then shoe horned a player into the team without really having really having a place for him. He also decided to leave our most experienced and fully fit defender out of the squad. England have many issues to sort in respect of developing players but this tournament and the struggles throughout qualification lie at the door of the manager and he should be removed from his position. If your referring to Terry as the fully fit defender, he was dropped for a reason. He is a damn disgrace to the country, we moan about Suarez ect, but at least they generally behave off the pitch, this guy is scum, comes from scum and will always be scum. Just look up the words terry and controversy and that there should tell you why he is nowhere near the squad and rightfully so Ashley Cole
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Post by cartman123 on Jun 21, 2014 11:33:56 GMT
and with regards to the other players such as lahm - i am referring to the sort of quality we should be looking to produce for the national side swapping cahill or jagilka for shawcross would have made no difference whatsoever in either game Since Ryan is better in purely defensive ability than Cahill or Jagilka - maybe not in terms of looking as comfortable on the ball - he would make a tangible improvement to the England defence. I have said it for years - we need one CB who attacks the ball (Adam, Terry, Butcher) and one who sits and covers. Both Cahill and Jagilka are the covering type. Neither attack the ball. That's Ryan's forte. Like they covered Suarez?
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Post by kristoff on Jun 21, 2014 11:38:36 GMT
If your referring to Terry as the fully fit defender, he was dropped for a reason. He is a damn disgrace to the country, we moan about Suarez ect, but at least they generally behave off the pitch, this guy is scum, comes from scum and will always be scum. Just look up the words terry and controversy and that there should tell you why he is nowhere near the squad and rightfully so Ashley Cole Aaaaah, excuse my rant then ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/kwfoKwtHI0jglJZ4qZf6.gif)
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Post by burberrybassist on Jun 21, 2014 12:28:34 GMT
Pissed me off listening to an interview on ITV with Hoddle saying no other manager could bring in 2 new CBs who know how to defend!? I can think of 3 who were never given the chance off the top of my head (Shawcross, Caulker and Davies), all 3 I'd like to see ahead if sodding Cahill!
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 21, 2014 12:40:19 GMT
You only know your good enough when you step up and 20 minutes in game when a world class player was already in his pomp in the game should not be held as a bench mark, Hodgeson himself said this when criticism was aimed at Cahill when he got done by a 36 year old has been Scotsman he said you can't judge a player on one game, although the hypocrite seems to be doing that with Ryan.
Graham Gooch test debut for England first innings 0 second innings 0.should never have played again hey?
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