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Post by philm87 on Aug 23, 2019 16:57:05 GMT
The fact that it goes back all the way to Liverpool in that semi-final perhaps suggests that the route of the problem does not lie with the manager.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 23, 2019 16:55:55 GMT
I think Jones was expecting Ince to be a fringe player after the end of last season, but after his little cameo against QPR, when he was our best player, he had to start him against Charlton. Ince was then arguably our best player against Charlton and scored a screamer for us.
You cannot really argue with him picking the team on form and merit. It is the only way he is going to keep all of these players happy and it also shows that his policy of having competition for places does actually work.
That said, Ince was less effective against Derby and Preston and we probably need to change it for Leeds.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 21:54:35 GMT
I don't like the diamond at all but that is not the main problem right now. The main problems is things like Jack dropping it into his own goal all the time, Batth not heading a simple ball, Joe Allen missing from two yards etc. It is really basic stuff. So basic that it is impossible to know how to fix it because it is surely something that Sunday League players would do automatically. We can fuck about with formations - and I would certainly scrap the diamond - but for as long as we keep missing own goals and gifting opponents like Butland is at the moment we will keep losing games. Which is why I think drop the “complicated” formation. Go 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 and focus on the basics. Yep agreed. Our players are so hopeless everything needs to be simplified for them. I suppose with Leeds we will make whatever exceptions are necessary to win the game. In the long run though we have so many central midfielders it will be hard to make 4-4-2 work.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 21:00:07 GMT
He was genuinely great last season but that defending for the second goal was criminal.
I think dropping him straight away is too much of a big statement - we need to drop Butland and Allen, so a third key player would be a bit too much
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 20:57:56 GMT
I think we have loads of problems, but the main one is just not doing the basics and no manager will change that. We are starting every game 0-1 behind and with our confidence shot. Our defence wasn’t that bad end of last season. He’s done something wrong. Too much focus on his stupid fucking diamond probably. I don't like the diamond at all but that is not the main problem right now. The main problems is things like Jack dropping it into his own goal all the time, Batth not heading a simple ball, Joe Allen missing from two yards etc. It is really basic stuff. So basic that it is impossible to know how to fix it because it is surely something that Sunday League players would do automatically. We can fuck about with formations - and I would certainly scrap the diamond - but for as long as we keep missing own goals and gifting opponents like Butland is at the moment we will keep losing games.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 20:53:15 GMT
It won't make a difference though will it? How can a manager legislate for that? Butland has given the opposition a head start in 3 of the 4 games we have played the season and on each occasion we started off the better side. Or the other sides have been biding their time, allowing us possession and ready to exploit the very obvious weaknesses in our system at the first opportunity... I think we have loads of problems, but the main one is just not doing the basics and no manager will change that. We are starting every game 0-1 behind and with our confidence shot.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 20:50:53 GMT
Could you imagine what the Oatcake would look like if everyone started the same number of threads as Momo?
And they are not even on different topics ffs!
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 20:49:02 GMT
Total bollocks. Try watching the game for once. He lost the ball 25 times 😂😂 You try watching the game! Did you watch the full 90 this time or just 45 minutes like last week? And were you actually watching it or were you on your phone the whole time, trolling people on here and Twatter at the same time?
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 20:46:56 GMT
It won't make a difference though will it?
How can a manager legislate for that? Butland has given the opposition a head start in 3 of the 4 games we have played the season and on each occasion we started off the better side.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 21, 2019 20:41:59 GMT
He’s been wank. He’s tried 6/7 crosses and hasn’t found a Stoke player all night. Good finish though. Total bollocks. Try watching the game for once.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 20, 2019 21:52:48 GMT
Yeah he would be totally wasted at the base of the diamond. We need him driving forward and cracking shots from the edge of their box.
Woods
Etebo Clucas
Duffy
Gregory Hogan
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Post by philm87 on Aug 20, 2019 21:45:55 GMT
Also since Joe Allen signed we have had Brexit and Trump. All because he runs around too much.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 21:15:43 GMT
Come again. How have you tried to explain it? About 10 posts ago memory man. About 5 after you asked me to expand. H All you said was he got skinned countless time and gave the ball away loads. Neither of those things happened. You just made it up because you had already decided before the game.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 20:38:15 GMT
Literally everyone on here is saying he was brilliant, including loads of people who hate him as an individual and don't rate him as a player. The idea that he was an 'embarrassment' in the first half is moronic even by Oatcake standards. He didn't get skinned countless times. That literally never happened. You just don't like him because of the IRA stuff and you are ex-army. I'm ex-army with my username? Fucking hell no wonder you didn't see how poor he was in the first half, your observational skills are on par with Mr McGoo. I gave him 6.5 today which I thought was fair. If I assessed him on anything to do with the IRA surely I would give him zero every time? H Sorry I'm a civilian so RAF and army - it's all the same to me. Point is you clearly have some other reason for thinking McClean played poorly given that as I said, almost everyone agrees he played well today including those who do not rate him (and I include myself in that category).
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 20:14:30 GMT
I also think NJ is getting desperate as well. Interviwed before the game he was saying some of the stuff in training was amazing? Is he for real, that has nothing to do with reality.His interview after was also child like bemoaning missed opportunities but failing to mention the space the opposition had all over the pitch. Hes is so obseesed with the diamond he misses what actually happening. Reckon he will go 3-5-2 V Leeds though. I felt Liam Lawrence so wanted to splurt it out how crap everything was but refrained as well. Sounds like you are a bit pissed maybe.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 20:11:44 GMT
Not really much to discuss if you honestly think that he looked like a sunday league player. How embarassing. He was embarassing first half, miles better in the second half. Come on tell me what you saw that makes you think differently? H Literally everyone on here is saying he was brilliant, including loads of people who hate him as an individual and don't rate him as a player. The idea that he was an 'embarrassment' in the first half is moronic even by Oatcake standards. He didn't get skinned countless times. That literally never happened. You just don't like him because of the IRA stuff and you are ex-army.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 20:04:28 GMT
It was probably Joe Allen's fault.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 19:59:10 GMT
Yeah me too.
Never rated him but his performances so far have been fairly solid. Hopefully that can continue.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 19:55:32 GMT
McClean was excellent today though defensively and going forward. So he can turn it on. Allen was clearly and obviously the weak link in that side. He chases like a fox but he causes so many issues and problems behind him. His one chance to make up for it he misses a 2 yard sitter. If you think McClean was excellent you are Stevie wonder friend, so many poor crosses and can't defend save his life. Turns out our fanbase is 99% Stevie Wonder and 1% Cunt then.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 19:40:58 GMT
Piss Poor first half. Had a decent second half going forward but we really can't afford to be blooding someone in such a specialised position. Never should have let Pieters go. H Piss poor first half? Please expand on that utter bollocks statement. Look at the username.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 17, 2019 19:40:33 GMT
Quality performance today. Genuinely didn't expect that.
That was better than Pieters would have done.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 11, 2019 20:46:14 GMT
I very rarely post on here but can’t help but read daily. Yesterday was yet again another absolute shit show. How any can defend it I don’t know. We have a Goalkeeper in poor form, strikers who missed sitters (Hogan should bury his chance that hit the bar) and a team that collectively fall asleeep when defending. The goals we conceded were all totally avoidable. Again we looked like we could concede at any moment. The diamond leaves us repeatedly exposed. To top it all off the manager doesn’t help by taking off the man who was kind of keeping us ticking in woods. Why change shape? Just bizarre. His record is embarrassing. I don’t know how anyone can defend it. Remember we shipped goals for fun too in the last few games last season. I want us to do well. Of course I do. As do many others. But the truth is we are hopeless at the moment. The Ostriches amongst the fan base keep telling those like me to wind their necks in. The truth hurts. I think most of your points have already been addressed on here, but here are some facts. Yesterday, as the away team, we had 54% possession, 12 shots with 3 on target (two against the woodwork). Our opponents had a mere five shots and three on target. At the end of last season our last five fixtures were as follows: Stoke 2 - 2 Rotherham Middlesborough 1 - 0 Stoke Stoke 2 - 2 Norwich Millwall 0 - 0 Stoke Stoke 2 - 2 Sheff United. Nothing spectacular there, but there is no way that counts 'shipping goals for fun.' These are just facts. Obviously we can disagree over the interpretation of the facts but you cannot really argue with any of the above.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 11, 2019 12:52:38 GMT
The issue of sacking managers wouldn't be there if the managers were producing decent, winning football. If our current form continues much longer then NJ's position will be under threat, and it won't be fans who'll be making the decision. You don't think all of us standing up and shouting, 'Gary Rowett your football is shit' had anything to do with it? We decided the timing of that sacking. I don't know what Coates privately thought, but we gave him no choice. That's not a criticism, I joined in very loudly. We hounded him out. We can now decide whether we do that again. I say at least give him a third of a season at least. That means trying to stay positive and getting behind the team for now. I reckon 80% of our fans are doing that, but the other 20% have already decided they want Jones out and/or do not care about results so long as they can vent.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 23:34:18 GMT
No they wouldn't. It's called probability, not semantics. We were unlucky today. A blind man can see that.The problem is that today's result and performance is being viewed in the context of three seasons of chronic disappointment and shite performances, so the idiot half of our fanbase are failing to recognised that there were in fact plenty of positives in that display and we were unlucky to lose. I have to be honest, I was there today and you're going to have to walk me through us being unlucky ... What was it, an offside goal that wasn't offside, a vital player going off injured, a penalty against us that wasn't a penalty? You've genuinely got me stumped. Please don't say that hitting the woodwork is unlucky, that's simply missing the target. I would just be repeating the exact same argument I have had with Stateside.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 23:32:02 GMT
I thought this was obvious but this thread is about the performance TODAY. For those of you who are determined to perpetuate the spiral of toxicity that is consuming the club right now you need to decide: 1) Are we going to give this group of players a clean slate given it is a new season, Jones has only just had his first full transfer window, half the team is new and we are just two games into the season or... 2) We are going to view every performance and result in the context of the poor run under Jones last season, where he inherited a squad full of Rowett's signings, with the leftovers from Hughes' catastrophic transfers and a really negative atmosphere or 3) Worse still, we will view every game in the context of the last four seasons, as one unending chain of misery for which the current manager is somehow responsible? Most of you appear to have plumped for option 2, some of you are actually leaning toward 3. I totally understanding FEELING like you have every right to adopt the third option, or at least the second option. But you need to stop fucking crying so much, put your emotions to one side and decide what you think is best for the club right now. It is clearly better for the club if we at least show a little bit more patience, a mere two games into a new season and after what was, today at least, a performance with plenty of positives that was not reflected in the score. Because if you continue in this vein you have the potential to turn a poor run of results and performances into a Sunderland-type situation with your chronic negativity and all the additional pressure you are placing on every game. And if you think that is happy clapping then you can go fuck yourselves. Got it... it’s the fans’ fault! Yet a-fucking-gain its the fault of the fans who spend their hard-earned to support a team who keep failing them. 72 games without scoring 3 goals... fans fault. 3 wins in 23 games... fans fault. 5 away goals under Nathan Jones... fans fault. Come on Phil... you are happy clapping and telling other people, many of whom do actually go to all of these games, to go fuck themselves does you no credit. It’s not the first time you’ve ranted like this and I don’t know what you’re trying to achieve. You ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS blame the fans. How about answering the question I posted above then. Which one is it, 1, 2 or 3? It is a very simple question. This thread was originally about the performance today. It is other people who have turned it into something else, by ignoring the merits of today's performance and instead seeing this solely in the context of all the previous failures. I am not telling everyone to fuck themselves. I am telling those people who call patient supporters 'happy clappers' to fuck themselves. I am pretty sure the previous posts I have made about the fans represent the views of quite a lot of people, judging by the volume of likes. I think what I am saying resonates with the silent majority. To be clear, there are many reasons we are currently in such a shit situation. The fans are pretty close to the bottom of that list and the majority of our fans our great. As I have said before though, how we got into this mess is separate from the question of how we get out of it. My point is that if we continue to only see the negatives, boo the players, abuse them, etc., we are not going to get out of this situation. Us having the necessary patience is an essential requirement to any chance of revival. The overwhelming majority of our support seem to understand this, but a very vocal 10-20% are inviting a Sunderland-like implosion. You appear to read this sort of argument and take it personally. It is as if any hint of criticism in your direction provokes some sort of emotional outburst which prevents you from viewing things dispassionately.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 23:15:59 GMT
Not wanting to be negative about everything, fella. I just disagree with your outlook on today’s game. I’m well aware we’re no longer a Premier League team, and followed Stoke long before our ten years stint in the top flight. You’re right in saying we’ve been spoiled a bit over the last decade or so, but we’ve also watched us turn out complete dross for the last three years. I’m absolutely behind the team, I want nothing more than for Jones to be successful, but I’m also not going to pretend like everything in the garden is roses right now. It’s clearly not. It’s still early days, but let’s not pretend that today was some massive improvement over what we’ve seen so far from the Jones revolution. He’s done a lot of talking, but he’s yet to back it up with anything tangible on the pitch. His record so far has been diabolical, and while people recognize that he inherited a shit show, there has to be some indication of improvement sooner rather than later - for me, today didn’t really provide much in the way of improvement at all. There were some signs that were moving in the right direction, but were still looking disjointed and lacking any real ideas. We’re not going to progress by playing the “what if” game - we need to recognize the issues quickly and address them. We’re not scoring enough, we’re not creating enough, and we continue to concede sloppy goals. That’s not being negative, it’s stating the facts. Just my opinion, and that’s what this place is for, right? You sound pretty negative. And your opinion of today's game is very negative. Anyway, it sort of feels as if each of your posts makes sense when read in isolation, but every time I raise a point about x, you subtly shift the focus to y and so we never get anywhere. I think you have mistakenly gotten the impression that I think 'everything in the garden is rosy.' I definitely do not think that. Make no mistake, we are in deep shit right now. I'll skip to what I think is the main point of difference. ''for me, today didn’t really provide much in the way of improvement at all.'' I really find it hard to believe that you saw no improvement in today's performance in comparison to what we saw last week. That is genuinely excessively negative. ''We’re not scoring enough, we’re not creating enough, and we continue to concede sloppy goals. That’s not being negative, it’s stating the facts.'' Those aren't facts though are they? It is a fact we are not scoring enough. It is not a fact that we are not creating enough. That is the crux of the disagreement here. I think we created enough today, we just did not convert. On another day, at least one more of those goes in. So I don't think you are stating the facts, I think you are putting a negative spin on everything. I agree regarding the defensive lapses. But you cannot have it both ways. You cannot invoke Jones poor record last season on the one hand, while ignoring the fact that we actually looked defensively solid under him until the last two games. And yeah sure I am not stopping you having your opinion. But if we are talking about the match today, it is my opinion that you are talking negative bollocks
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 23:06:57 GMT
Fair play. You're right. We need to lay off for now. How long must we wait though before the manager can be criticized? No sarcasm here btw On a personal level (sorry for butting in - genuinely), I think we need to give it the first ten games and take stock. Look at performances and results together and not just knee jerk based on his overall record here. Look at what has changed in terms of results, in terms of performances and then make a judgement. If things carry on as they are and are still the same after ten games then he is on very rocky ground and a decision will obviously have to be made. What is really annoying me at the moment is the total insistence on the facts and figures and no thoughts are being put towards the change in shape, 10 new players that need bedding in (3 in the last few days), an attempt at changing the whole mentality from '40 points nige' and Rowetts cautious football to one of trying to play expansive football, which in my opinion is the hardest shift to make in football. I know we're in a results business but we must be careful to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater and potentially pass up a potentially very good long term option (it's got to be potentially as none of us have a crystal ball) for the short term results and frustration. What Jones did at Luton cannot be done on sheer luck. It wasn't a Pulis type promotion at Gillingham where he scored less goals than games, it was an absolute machine that he created. A ridiculous goalscoring machine. I'd rather we took our time a bit and just be sure he cannot repeat it, or get close to it in the situation here before chucking it in and going (again) in a different direction. No apology required. I pretty much concur with everything you have said. I reckon NJ should have 10-12 games personally and I am not especially optimistic, but I do not see what other choice we have unless we are going to change managers several times every season. I reckon the wise people on here will give him 3-4. Those especially steeped in wisdom like Momo will give him minus two.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 18:52:55 GMT
At 30 minutes of the Liverpool - Norwich game last night the stats said that Liverpool had managed to muster just 1 attempt on goal whereas Norwich had had 2 very decent attempts on goal - the score was 2-0 to Liverpool - at that time the commentators were stating that Norwich were unlucky to be 2-0 down. I am betting this season that Liverpool will continue to get all the good luck while Norwich will not. 3 wins and 19pts in 23 games is not all down to bad luck. Rowett was sacked for scoring double the points NJ has accumalted, due to the fact that he was not performing to the standards we were expecting. NJ stats on the whole are appalling and, lets face it, is only in the job because he is a yes man the board can control. Today was yet another negative result under NJ, only the 4th goal we have scored on our travels since his arrival and we were shocking defensively and utterly apalling in front of goal. We have now lost to 2 teams that are favourites for relegation. He has had a whole pre-season and 20+ games to look at his team/squad and yet started the season with a square peg and an 18 year-old in defence and in the space of 7 days made almost a complete u-turn on the 11 players he started the season with. He is a man who is totally out of his depth and lost - luck has feck all to do with it I thought this was obvious but this thread is about the performance TODAY. For those of you who are determined to perpetuate the spiral of toxicity that is consuming the club right now you need to decide: 1) Are we going to give this group of players a clean slate given it is a new season, Jones has only just had his first full transfer window, half the team is new and we are just two games into the season or... 2) We are going to view every performance and result in the context of the poor run under Jones last season, where he inherited a squad full of Rowett's signings, with the leftovers from Hughes' catastrophic transfers and a really negative atmosphere or 3) Worse still, we will view every game in the context of the last four seasons, as one unending chain of misery for which the current manager is somehow responsible? Most of you appear to have plumped for option 2, some of you are actually leaning toward 3. I totally understanding FEELING like you have every right to adopt the third option, or at least the second option. But you need to stop fucking crying so much, put your emotions to one side and decide what you think is best for the club right now. It is clearly better for the club if we at least show a little bit more patience, a mere two games into a new season and after what was, today at least, a performance with plenty of positives that was not reflected in the score. Because if you continue in this vein you have the potential to turn a poor run of results and performances into a Sunderland-type situation with your chronic negativity and all the additional pressure you are placing on every game. And if you think that is happy clapping then you can go fuck yourselves.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 18:38:53 GMT
If Gregory misses the exact same chance 9/10 then it is bad finishing. If he scores that chance 9/10 then it is unlucky for us today. I am saying it was the latter, you and others are saying the former presumably? And I am the biggest Messi fan ever but I can find you videos of him missing sitters too. I’m saying it doesn’t matter one bit whether you call it bad luck or bad finishing. It makes no difference whatsoever. We had a decent twenty minute spell in the first hakf, and other than that, we were bang average. Charlton were also bang average, but they put away their chances. Your making out like we completely outclassed and outplayed them, and that’s far from the case. And regarding your point on Ince, I think it’s far too early to say whether Jones has brought the best out of him. There have been plenty of occasions where Ince has had a decent twenty minute spell and scored a cracking goal - and it’s usually followed by him disappearing for about 8 games. Hope this time is different, but we’ll see. I was responding directly to the other person who made the point about bad finishing versus luck. Clearly it does matter massively. The whole point is that if you replayed that scenario over and over, 9 times out of 10 Gregory or any other average Championship striker would have scored that chance and it would have 2-1 at the beginning of the second half. That's excluding the two chances that hit the post AND Smith's missed chance in the first half. To say we only had a decent 20 minutes spell in the first half is definitely harsh. I think your perception of 'bang average' is probably skewed by a decade of relative success and Premier League football. I think a lot of our fans need to wake up to the reality that we are currently a mid-table Championship side. We have the players, on paper, to secure promotion to the Premier League but only if we are willing to be a bit more patient and stay behind the players on those occasions when things don't go our way. Today was one of those days. People are also wrong to suggest that Charlton are shite and we should easily take three points from them. They have a great home record and will be full of confidence from promotion. Anyone who knows this league knows anyone can beat anyone, but our fans expect 'easy' wins every week. Charlton can go into this game with little pressure on them. In contrast, our manager and our players are playing with the constant pressure and expectation that they win every time we play 'weaker' teams which is every team we have played since relegation pretty much. I never made out we outclassed them, but I think we were the better team and at least deserved a draw. What I am contesting is your opinion that we somehow deserved to lose 3-1, which is a ludicrous idea on the balance of play. I totally agree about Ince disappearing. I never said Jones got the best out of him. Again, you are putting words into my mouth. What I am saying though is that, as a Stoke fan, it is surely good to see a player that we had all completely written off perform so well and it is good to see we now have 3 strong candidates for the tip of the diamond. Unless of course you want to be negative about everything, which is what the Oatcake is for nowadays.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 10, 2019 17:01:54 GMT
I didn't watch the game. I don't bother anymore as it ruins my weekend. But if we played well, can someone tell me why we lost 3-1 to a side that wasn't as strong as it was in league 1 last season? Because of The Secret Ginger Footballer.
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