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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 15:34:56 GMT
I don't lie, I posted what are known as the 3 Basic Laws to remove any doubt that Israel isnt an Apartheid and Racist State I wrongly assumed you knew what you were talking about in your defence of Israel When you said you didn't know about Israeli Laws I linked 62 Further Laws in Israel which are Discriminatory, Racist and designed to ensure an Apartheid State. You have latched onto the Superiority Status of Hebrew being included as a means of normalising by association 64 other Discriminatory Laws, completely ignoring that Israel is the only Country in the World that doesn't enshrine equality of its Citizens in its Laws. This was a point I quoted from the well known Academic in Democracy the Israeli/Jewish Dr Amir Fuchs Defending the indefensible may have been justified at an early stage due to your ignorance. Continued defence can only be that you are too obtuse to admit you were wrong or alternatively you come from a position where Israel’s actions can be justified in all circumstances irrespective of International Norms/Laws. As I said in a previous post if its the latter it's not a unique position to take as it is shared by a good portion of the 7M Jewish Israeli Citizens but by no means all. It is not shared by the 2M Arab Israeli Second Class Citizens. It is a view shared by the 500K Jewish Settlers in West Bank and 220K Jewish Settlers in East Jerusalem. Neither UN or ICJ share this view in fact they call it a War Crime. The 2.7M Palestinians remaining in West Bank or the 400K Palestinians in East Jerusalem don't share this view. Nor do the 2M Palestinians in Gaza but it is a view which is shared by many Zionists throughout the World What's your position? My position is that having a national language does not mean there is an apartheid in that country. The UK is a good example. The other bits generally show there is an apartheid in Israel/Palestine. I suggest if you ever need to persuade someone of the apartheid in Israel you don’t mention the national language point. Oh and i am still waiting for you to quote all of my bombastic defences of the Israeli government! You will also need to quote where I have apparently defended the indefensible. Finally, you (and Paul) must be embarrassed for being completely out argued by someone as ignorant as you and Paul keep telling me I am! Completely off topic Oggy but out of interest, what type of law do you practice? Please feel free to tell me to mind my own business, if you think that I'm intruding.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 14:19:05 GMT
I didn't realise, that you had decided that we had finished. Absolutely your prerogative to not reply to my post(s) if you've had enough but don't expect me not to reply to yours, if I feel that I want to. By the way, if anyone wants to learn about paedophilia and how to protect against it, it is crucial to understand it and therefore speak to perpetrators about it and it is why criminal psychologists do that exact thing. Not everyone can read minds like you can. Yeah that's why he have criminal psychologists to do those sort of things, rather than the likes of you and I, same reason the likes of George Galloway won't be sitting round a table trying to negotiate a peace deal in the Middle East. Sheesh ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 14:15:49 GMT
Either you were ignorant to the fact, or you were indeed questioning the validity of the claim. And actually, it wouldn't be weird at all to know that there were laws in Israel that have created apartheid, it would, however, be (when entering a debate like this) bloody weird NOT to know! Why was I ignorant to it? I didn't say you were, I SAID (amazing how many times people have to do this with you) that you were EITHER ignorant to it OR you were indeed questioning it, it's right there in your own words that you used to reply to my question. The rest of your post is just more obfuscation.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 13:30:04 GMT
The ironic thing about this, is that this is clear antisemitic rhetoric being broadcast on the BBC.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 13:24:41 GMT
Utterly depraved ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 13:04:05 GMT
And you (in your ignorance of the sublect) presumed it was because he was being racist and it's been explained to you ad infinitum by numerous people on here and Galloway himself, that it was because of what the student believed - which is indeed how apartheid came up. Would you debate with a pedophile about the rights and wrong of pedophilia? I would sincerely hope you wouldn't and for a lot of people, apartheid and everything that accompanies it, is as bad as pedophilia. Galloway explained to you that he was working with JEWISH members of the ANC to end apartheid, how could he then be racist against Jews? You really want to go again! I didn't realise, that you had decided that we had finished. Absolutely your prerogative to not reply to my post(s) if you've had enough but don't expect me not to reply to yours, if I feel that I want to.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 12:54:18 GMT
I never questioned whether or not there was discrimination or apartheid or ethnic cleansing in Israel/Palestine. Either you were ignorant to the fact, or you were indeed questioning the validity of the claim. You don't even realise that there are laws in Israel that specifically prohibit Arabs from certain places or doing certain things that Jewish people are allowed to do, do you? Weirdly enough, I don’t know every law in Israel. I do know that the laws quoted by Wannabee do not expressly prohibit Arabs from certain places or doing certain things. And actually, it wouldn't be weird at all to know that there were laws in Israel that have created apartheid, it would, however, be (when entering a debate like this) bloody weird NOT to know!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 8, 2024 2:55:23 GMT
Christ alive, this is so depressing.
I really don't understand how it has got to this.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 23:49:49 GMT
Do you think they're likely to explain the awarding of Charlotte Owen's peerage? 🙊
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 23:32:26 GMT
What's the betting the money will miraculously appear on Monday?
Orban? Putin? Musk? The Saudis?
And we're to believe that a man running for Presidency of the USA isn't going to be compromised?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 22:57:53 GMT
Thank god for Victoria Derbyshire, Lord knows why she isn't doing Question Time or hasn't replaced Laura Keunsberg?
Actually, I think we all know why ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 22:27:26 GMT
Well you've been wasting your's and everybody else's time then because (and for the millionth time) NOBODY on here has suggested as much. Galloway (the subject of this thread) wouldn’t debate an Israeli which is how it came up. And you (in your ignorance of the sublect) presumed it was because he was being racist and it's been explained to you ad infinitum by numerous people on here and Galloway himself, that it was because of what the student believed - which is indeed how apartheid came up. Would you debate with a pedophile about the rights and wrong of pedophilia? I would sincerely hope you wouldn't and for a lot of people, apartheid and everything that accompanies it, is as bad as pedophilia. Galloway explained to you that he was working with JEWISH members of the ANC to end apartheid, how could he then be racist against Jews?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 20:21:06 GMT
Well you've been wasting your's and everybody else's time then because (and for the millionth time) NOBODY on here has suggested as much. But you're all so intelligent surely 🤷 Well my excuse is that I've got a slipped disc and haven't been out of bed all day! 😁
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 20:02:31 GMT
With respect Oggy, I think you've spent all afternoon arguing your point from a position of ignorance. There are numerous books, newspaper articles and YouTube documentaries you can watch about settler violence, murder and theft of Arab homes and lands, to bring yourself up to speed. (Wanabee even provided you with an entire report from Amnesty International, in the hope that you might educate yourself on the subject a little). I don't need to read somebody's mind to have a pretty fair idea about what Israeli settlers think about apartheid. If you had said in the 80's, that you would need to be a mind reader to know what Afrikana Nationalists thought about apartheid, you would have (quite rightly) been laughed out of the room. My point was you cannot call all Israelis racist because of their leaders. Well you've been wasting your's and everybody else's time then because (and for the millionth time) NOBODY on here has suggested as much.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 19:18:50 GMT
Well you do know what 700,000 people in the west bank believe in so you probably can read other minds. You do know having a national language by law with special status above others isn’t a sign of apartheid, right? That was one of the 3 laws Wannabee used as evidence of apartheid in Israel! With respect Oggy, I think you've spent all afternoon arguing your point from a position of ignorance. There are numerous books, newspaper articles and YouTube documentaries you can watch about settler violence, murder and theft of Arab homes and lands, to bring yourself up to speed. (Wanabee even provided you with an entire report from Amnesty International, in the hope that you might educate yourself on the subject a little). I don't need to read somebody's mind to have a pretty fair idea about what Israeli settlers think about apartheid. If you had said in the 80's, that you would need to be a mind reader to know what Afrikana Nationalists thought about apartheid, you would have (quite rightly) been laughed out of the room.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 19:02:08 GMT
And there are over 700,00 illegal settlers in the West Bank alone. And not all of them will be the same as that person Indeed, a lot of them are much, much worse.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 19:01:21 GMT
To be fair, you didn't even realise that apartheid was taking place in Israel until this afternoon. Didn’t I? Nope
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 18:39:30 GMT
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it mate😀 Learned anything? To be fair, you didn't even realise that apartheid was taking place in Israel until this afternoon.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 18:38:26 GMT
He literally says "if I don't steal your home, somebody else will". How on earth can you steal somebody's home and not know what you're doing? Yes it is awful and shouldn’t be happening. And there are over 700,00 illegal settlers in the West Bank alone.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 16:55:19 GMT
You are absolutely right ... it DOESNT make it right and it DOESNT provide any justification, 100% on the money. But it doesn't matter if the settlers see it as apartheid or not, if they're practicing it, then IT IS apartheid. The Afrikans Nationalists didn't give a shit about what other people called what they were doing, same thing in Israel. I very much doubt all them think one way about it. He literally says "if I don't steal your home, somebody else will". How on earth can you steal somebody's home and not know what you're doing?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 16:39:35 GMT
So you admit that you're actually not aware of the apartheid that is taking place in Israel then? Denying one people's the same rights as another people's, goes to the very heart of what apartheid is. I kind of now understand why this debate has ended up in the hopeless place it has. You are seriously trying to claim that people who are illegally stealing people's lands and homes and in doing so, are relegating those people to second class citizenship, are somehow not aware of what they're actually doing? Christ alive ... It certainly appears that an apartheid is going on on the West Bank. That doesn’t mean everyone there believes it should be (or indeed would say it is happening). I guarantee many say it is their rightful ancestral homeland. I imagine some feel entitled to take what they see as theirs. It obviously doesn’t make it right or gives any justification. But it is likely that they do not view the taking of land as apartheid. Yet you say they not only do all of them consider it apartheid, they all believe in it, which I take to mean you saying that they all believe an apartheid is right and should be inflicted on the residents there. You are absolutely right ... it DOESNT make it right and it DOESNT provide any justification, 100% on the money. But it doesn't matter if the settlers see it as apartheid or not, if they're practicing it, then IT IS apartheid. The Afrikans Nationalists didn't give a shit about what other people called what they were doing, same thing in Israel.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 15:56:20 GMT
Christ alive you are STILL doing it, even when what you are doing has been pointed out to you on more than one occasion. Do you think we're all stupid or something? I haven't said that I speak for any Israelis living anywhere. You don't even realise that there are laws in Israel that specifically prohibit Arabs from certain places or doing certain things that Jewish people are allowed to do, do you? Sorry, did you not say: “ What I SAID, was that there are 100,000's of illegal (under INTERNATIONAL law) settlers in Palestine who believe in apartheid”? Unreal that you know what 100,000s of people believe in and so you feel able to express their belief (or speak for them as I said) on here. Weirdly enough, I don’t know every law in Israel. I do know that the laws quoted by Wannabee do not expressly prohibit Arabs from certain places or doing certain things. So you admit that you're actually not aware of the apartheid that is taking place in Israel then? Denying one people's the same rights as another people's, goes to the very heart of what apartheid is. I kind of now understand why this debate has ended up in the hopeless place it has. You are seriously trying to claim that people who are illegally stealing people's lands and homes and in doing so, are relegating those people to second class citizenship, might somehow not be aware of what they're actually doing? Christ alive ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 15:41:18 GMT
I understand fully there's nuance. But by moving there you'd be complicit in breaking international law........... Which cannot be enforced against the individuals moving there. Anyway, most people don’t have a clue about that though. I don’t think voting for the tories at the next election mean you are complicit in breaking international law because of the Rwanda policy. Blimey and you've got the temerity to claim that you don't obfuscate.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 15:32:45 GMT
What is it with you that you never answer the questions that are asked of you and then claim people have said something which they haven't as a response? You're one big walking and talking straw man. You claimed that I said 'every' Israeli when I didn't and you've now backed off from that claim and suggested that I said I speak for hundreds of thousands of Israelis, when i didnt remotely say that either. What I SAID, was that there are 100,000's of illegal (under INTERNATIONAL law) settlers in Palestine who believe in apartheid, just like the vast majority of Afrikana Nationalists did in South Africa. I'm not inviting you to argue these points, I'm telling you indisputable facts. Wannabee has explained to you that Israeli law itself advocates apartheid just as South African law did. Desmond Tutu said that in many ways the apartheid he saw in Israel was worse than that he experienced in South Africa. I’m sorry Paul, but you do not speak for the Israelis living on the West Bank. Your arrogance is extraordinary. The laws in SA specifically prohibited black people from certain places or doing certain things that white people were allowed to do. The Israeli laws Wannabee quoted are being interpreted in a certain way to enforce apartheid in part. It is completely wrong and immoral and a racist poison. Having a preferred national language is not apartheid. It is normal. Christ alive you are STILL doing it, even when what you are doing has been pointed out to you on more than one occasion. Do you think we're all stupid or something? I haven't said that I speak for any Israelis living anywhere. You don't even realise that there are laws in Israel that specifically prohibit Arabs from certain places or doing certain things that Jewish people are allowed to do, do you?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 15:10:19 GMT
Read back my first sentence in the post you've quoted Oggy and then explain to me how you've translated that sentence to mean 'EVERY', it's pretty poor form, especially as your inability to read what people have written, then makes you think you have the right to call people racist. And you do understand that the first Nakba took place before Netanyahu was even born, don't you? You speak for “hundreds of thousands of Israelis” do you? Perhaps they feel the land is rightfully theirs and they oppose the way Palestinians are treated, but feel too afraid to say or do anything. I think it is more complex than any of us can even begin to imagine. Every Israeli I have spoken to about what is going on at the moment is completely opposed to the invasion and West Bank settlements, and to the way many Palestinians have been persecuted. One of those Israelis still lives in Israel and was telling me he doesn’t know a single person there who doesn’t have a relative who has been killed by Hamas/Palestine. They also give a far more nuanced view than me or anyone on here can. They know what life is like to have rockets exploding in the background as a daily fact of life. None of us do. It is not as simple as “Israel bad, Palestine good”. They know far more about the history than any of us do. I would love the opportunity to speak to a Palestinian about it. I imagine they generally hate Hamas. I have never spoken to an Israeli who now lives in the West Bank and I have never spoken with a Palestinian living in Gaza/the West Bank (or at all as far as I know). On the English thread you wrote: “If somebody judged me one way or the other because of where i was born, I'd be desperately dissapointed, I'd much prefer they judge me for who I am.” I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. I think that applies to Israelis too (and South Africans). What i don’t think is good for anyone is to refuse to engage with the other side. That means war and no possible peace. That is why I don’t think Galloway’s approach of “Israel bad, Hamas/Palestine good” and no engagement with the other side is part of the problem. What is it with you that you never answer the questions that are asked of you and then claim people have said something which they haven't as a response? You're one big walking and talking straw man. You claimed that I said 'every' Israeli when I didn't and you've now backed off from that claim and suggested that I said I speak for hundreds of thousands of Israelis, when i didnt remotely say that either. What I SAID, was that there are 100,000's of illegal (under INTERNATIONAL law) settlers in Palestine who believe in apartheid, just like the vast majority of Afrikana Nationalists did in South Africa. I'm not inviting you to argue these points, I'm telling you indisputable facts. Wannabee has explained to you that Israeli law itself advocates apartheid just as South African law did. Desmond Tutu said that in many ways the apartheid he saw in Israel was worse than that he experienced in South Africa.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 12:00:08 GMT
Most Nationalist South Afrikaners believed in apartheid, as do the hundreds of thousands of illegal Israeli settlers who have poured into Palestine. Excuse me, but do YOU see the lack of difference? Archbishop Tutu said that he believed the apartheid installed in Israel was worse than that in South Africa. Do you now accept that the reason Galloway did not engage with the Israeli student was not for racist reasons? If you think every Israeli is racist because of the actions of Netanyahu, and if you think every South African is racist because of apartheid, then you are racist because you hold an automatic prejudice against people based only on their nationality. It is wrong and I will never agree with you on that. My Israeli friends despise Netanyahu and everything he stands for. They are not racist just because they are Israeli. What about Yotam Ottolenghi? He partnered with a Palestinian chef to open their first restaurant together in London. Ottolenghi is Israeli. Is he racist? Read back my first sentence in the post you've quoted Oggy and then explain to me how you've translated that sentence to mean 'EVERY', it's pretty poor form, especially as your inability to read what people have written, then makes you think you have the right to call people racist. And you do understand that the first Nakba took place before Netanyahu was even born, don't you?
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GB News
Mar 7, 2024 11:55:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 11:55:10 GMT
I'm not quite sure how this sort of stuff is allowed to be broadcast nowadays. It's dangerous, racist, bullshit. Just who is Julie talking about, when she refers to *our* people and which are the War memorials she claims have been pulled down? They're not even hiding it anymore. Come on Paul own up was it you who won the GBNEWS cash prize the other day 😀 a chap from Stoke won 18k 👍 February 2024: Congratulations to Charles from Stoke On Trent who won £18,000 cash I told you not to mention that! 🤭
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English
Mar 7, 2024 0:31:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 0:31:22 GMT
Part of identity? personal and family history? That's why I asked you right at the start, what are you referring to? And you answered "Nationality" but have since qualified your answer to be "people being protective of their national identity is a better phrasing." Nationalism is different (and much worse) than Patriotism for me. Was just trying to establish what it is you wanted to discuss. theconversation.com/what-is-the-difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism-208170
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English
Mar 7, 2024 0:13:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 0:13:07 GMT
Fair do's mate, I could have been born in any country, so for me, it's no different to me being proud of being born right handed or being born tall. I would assume that somebody who is proud of being born English, would equally be as proud of being born Dutch, if they were born in Holland. I know that you teach religious studies BJR, so I assume that you're aware that the Bible regards pride as a sin and sees it as the opposite of humility. Proverbs 11:2 “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.” Proverbs 16:5 “The LORD detests all the proud of heart." Whether the bible is relevant is a whole different issue. As I say perhaps some people being protective of their national identity is a better phrasing. Patriotism then?
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English
Mar 7, 2024 0:00:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 7, 2024 0:00:05 GMT
Explain to me what it means to you BJR and I'll try and have a crack at it. I just don't understand how you cam be proud or ashamed over something you had absolutely no say in. Just asking for opinions Paul. Your " crack" seems fine to me. It seems to me that Nationality is part of identity.... and some people are proud of that part of their identity, or perhaps more accurately fiercely protective of it..... I'm just wondering what others think, perhaps to clarify my own thinking. Fair do's mate, I could have been born in any country, so for me, it's no different to me being proud of being born right handed or being born tall. I would assume that somebody who is proud of being born English, would equally be as proud of being born Dutch, if they were born in Holland. I know that you teach religious studies BJR, so I assume that you're aware that the Bible regards pride as a sin and sees it as the opposite of humility. Proverbs 11:2 “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.” Proverbs 16:5 “The LORD detests all the proud of heart."
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