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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 22, 2023 11:56:37 GMT
Research? On what fans want? That doesn't exist. You could ask stadium fans what they want, and they probably will say the same as me: I like attacking football, I really do, but that's because I love my team going for it more than I like them being pinned back. Attack is the best defence, after all. But they all love winning more than high-scoring games. Just look on this message board on the difference if we win 1-0 compared to losing 2-3, or even a 3-3 draw. Most on here don't care about goals as long as we score more than the opposition. I reckon that's the same on the terraces all over the world. But the fact is, football, with it's low scoring games, is vastly more popular than any other team sports, at least in the western hemisphere. You can try all you want, but that punches a giant hole in your theory about what fans really want. More goals is not the same as better football to watch. On the contrary. I hate that 7-1 and 8-0 is a common result in the PL nowadays. It boring. I just don’t think it’s only about the fans in the ground. I’ve not stopped going to Stoke games even though they often bore me to tears. I used to watch football on tv at least 3 or 4 nights a week now I watch more or less no football at all bar Stoke games. What would make me watch again? More goals more incident. I like what 20/20 delivers for me, an over without incident is very unusual and I’d like to see a version of football adapted similarly and don’t see why anyone should be able to veto that. All the arguments presented against are I like it as it is/was and it must stay the same. I don’t think anyone should have the right to block these things It’s a simple principle exactly as it applied to 20/20 and franchise cricket, if you don’t like it don’t go/watch, if somebody or group wants to pursue them let the audience/spectators decide. I’ve absolutely no interest in more of the same format ie the ESL proposal but the ability of governing bodies to block things applies to all innovations they’re not on board with and that’s why I think the ruling is positive. And why should those of us who see and enjoy football as a sport want to see the game turned into the travesty you keep banging on about? You might want it to be just a branch of the entertainment industry and you may have some of the video game generation on your side but stop claiming you speak for everybody because you don't. You may actually be right and football will split into two codes - one designed for tv and one designed for actual sports fans. In some ways that might be a good thing - the likes of Man Utd and Chelseas can sod off and turn themselves into the footballing equivalent of the Harlem Globe Trotters and proper football can get back to to being a competitive sport that isn't skewed by stupid money and media interests. Oh and take VAR with you.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 12:02:37 GMT
I just don’t think it’s only about the fans in the ground. I’ve not stopped going to Stoke games even though they often bore me to tears. I used to watch football on tv at least 3 or 4 nights a week now I watch more or less no football at all bar Stoke games. What would make me watch again? More goals more incident. I like what 20/20 delivers for me, an over without incident is very unusual and I’d like to see a version of football adapted similarly and don’t see why anyone should be able to veto that. All the arguments presented against are I like it as it is/was and it must stay the same. I don’t think anyone should have the right to block these things It’s a simple principle exactly as it applied to 20/20 and franchise cricket, if you don’t like it don’t go/watch, if somebody or group wants to pursue them let the audience/spectators decide. I’ve absolutely no interest in more of the same format ie the ESL proposal but the ability of governing bodies to block things applies to all innovations they’re not on board with and that’s why I think the ruling is positive. And why should those of us who see and enjoy football as a sport want to see the game turned into the travesty you keep banging on about? You might want it to be just a branch of the entertainment industry and you may have some of the video game generation on your side but stop claiming you speak for everybody because you don't. You may actually be right and football will split into two codes - one designed for tv and one designed for actual sports fans. In some ways that might be a good thing - the likes of Man Utd and Chelseas can sod off and turn themselves into the footballing equivalent of the Harlem Globe Trotters and proper football can get back to to being a competitive sport that isn't skewed by stupid money and media interests. Oh and take VAR with you. Eventually you've hit the nail on the head. Why should you or people who think like you be able to block such developments. People would then have the choice to take in one, the other, both or neither. What's your problem with that?
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Dec 22, 2023 12:22:50 GMT
There is one ridiculous irony here. The Premier League changed football forever in England in 1992 and ushered in massive TV distribution rights and a flood of money. Along with that then all the rich owners got involved. Originally it was rich Russians who wanted to own a plaything and no problem with losing money. Now the latest owners (Americans are the worst) and now the Saudi's are trying to wrest control and make this European Super League and actually make more money. The Premier League allowed this from right under their noses, with their ridiculous owners test and FFP rules. How can the Premier League now suddenly act like guardian of the game?? They started this whole bloody thing and changing football from a sport into a business. Do they think we have no memory of the last 30 years? Also its the main reason the likes of Barca-Madrid-Juventus want to make an ESL so they can compete with the English clubs who are generating the most revenue. The Premier League set European Football onto a trajectory that makes a European Super League not just likely but inevitable. I agree with all that apart from the last 9 words ! You dont think so Malcolm? It seems every 12 months they come up with some new proposals to test the waters and see the reaction of fans,clubs, media, and governments. I think the reluctance coming from the big 6 English clubs is also not completely virtuous. They have a hold on the most revenues via Premier League rights, and dont want the ESL because it will put Barca-Madrid- and other clubs on a level playing field money wise. They are saying no to ESL because of traditional values but thats complete horeshit for me. They are just jockeying for position. If the Glazers and other owners of the big clubs in England see a revenue opportunity they will jump ship. Imagine an ESL gets off the ground WITHOUT English clubs involved, meaning Man U, Liverpool etc miss out on the money involved? They will soon change their tune and say goodbye to the Premier League.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 22, 2023 12:23:57 GMT
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 12:40:27 GMT
Thanks I don't think it sounds like shite at all and will try to find out how to watch some of it. It's exactly the sort of thing I've been thinking of. When will it come to the UK I wonder. As well as not instead of traditional format football of course, can't for the life of me understand why anyone would object. Website is hard work it's all in bloody Spanish. Bit of a shit admission for a bloke who spends nearly half his life in Spain but I only know a handful of words mainly to do with ordering food and drinks. I have Lo siento for everything else.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Dec 22, 2023 13:33:28 GMT
Indeed look at this today on BBC:
Italian journalist Mina Rzouki said: "My most important thing is I want a level economic playing field. I don't want teams to be playing where there is such a huge gulf of difference in money.
"That drains the competition. If the Super League addresses that, it will have my vote."
The english teams like the status quo, so I think that European Teams will band together now and go without Premier League involvement. The Italian and Spanish clubs look very up for it. In Germany its more doubtful because of fan ownership in the clubs.
But if you have Spain, Italy and say French clubs that would represent some huge teams and generate enough TV revenue to push things along.
I dont think english supporters really understand what is the likely outcome here.
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Post by toppercorner on Dec 22, 2023 13:53:51 GMT
I have no idea about cricket. It was always an upper class game anyway, so let them wallow in their own ideology. Traditionalists are stuffy eh? Well, if name calling is enough argument for you, modernists are utterly naïve. "We must move forward", while it goes to shit. If you think football is better these days, then good for you. I think it's worse in so many ways. We are moving away from all those things that made football great. The immediacy, the local patriotism, the commonality and togetherness.
I've advocated it before, and I'll never give up on the idea that fans should be the sole owners of a football club. Private ownership shouldn't be allowed to exist. At all. It's the only way to curb the corruption and greed in football. I'm an eternal optimist though, so maybe the super league is what sparks a new model of football. One that has the fans and the community in the front. Not the fucked up killers and leeches we have today in the PL and beyond. Yes generally speaking I think football is a better spectacle than it was in my youth. It's faster more skilful there are more goals, its more entertaining and less negative but I don't think it's gone anywhere near far enough anywhere near fast enough. Negative play (holding on to what you start with) is still all too common. 0-0's are less frequent but 1 is 1 too many. Teams that fail to score should be guaranteed nothing from a game. Teams that score a lot of goals in a game should get a bonus. There are numerous things that could be tried to incentivise entertaining football and discourage boring spoiling football and also ensure fans get the amount of play they pay to see. The referees directive on added time was bottled within a couple of weeks. As far as all that weird togetherness etc is concerned I just don't buy into all that I've never been a tribal football fan. I'd be just as happy standing/sitting next to an opposition fan as I would a Stoke fan. I do agree with fans having a meaningful stake in a club but I think sole ownership would only serve as a geographical closed shop, closed shop's are part of what you're objecting to. Maybe you should take in an IPL game. If you don't like cricket just watch the crowd, they don't look very upper class to me. hard disagree with the majority of you post. Sounds horrific and very American.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 22, 2023 14:09:08 GMT
Not happening folks, worry over....
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 22, 2023 14:30:30 GMT
Indeed look at this today on BBC: Italian journalist Mina Rzouki said: "My most important thing is I want a level economic playing field. I don't want teams to be playing where there is such a huge gulf of difference in money. "That drains the competition. If the Super League addresses that, it will have my vote." The english teams like the status quo, so I think that European Teams will band together now and go without Premier League involvement. The Italian and Spanish clubs look very up for it. In Germany its more doubtful because of fan ownership in the clubs. But if you have Spain, Italy and say French clubs that would represent some huge teams and generate enough TV revenue to push things along. I dont think english supporters really understand what is the likely outcome here. If English and German teams aren’t interested/allowed, I can’t see it being that impressive to be honest.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 22, 2023 14:32:31 GMT
Thanks I don't think it sounds like shite at all and will try to find out how to watch some of it. It's exactly the sort of thing I've been thinking of. When will it come to the UK I wonder. As well as not instead of traditional format football of course, can't for the life of me understand why anyone would object. Website is hard work it's all in bloody Spanish. Bit of a shit admission for a bloke who spends nearly half his life in Spain but I only know a handful of words mainly to do with ordering food and drinks. I have Lo siento for everything else. I couldn’t care less about something like this coming in to the UK. People who like TikTok will like it I’m sure. There are plenty of non-traditional football alternatives around. 5 a side is a good example of something that just has goals galore.
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Post by lordb on Dec 22, 2023 14:56:22 GMT
Not happening folks, worry over.... How would he achieve that?
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Post by enuntio on Dec 22, 2023 15:20:02 GMT
Not happening folks, worry over.... How would he achieve that? By having a word with the local Gendarmes...
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 16:12:53 GMT
Thanks I don't think it sounds like shite at all and will try to find out how to watch some of it. It's exactly the sort of thing I've been thinking of. When will it come to the UK I wonder. As well as not instead of traditional format football of course, can't for the life of me understand why anyone would object. Website is hard work it's all in bloody Spanish. Bit of a shit admission for a bloke who spends nearly half his life in Spain but I only know a handful of words mainly to do with ordering food and drinks. I have Lo siento for everything else. I couldn’t care less about something like this coming in to the UK. People who like TikTok will like it I’m sure. There are plenty of non-traditional football alternatives around. 5 a side is a good example of something that just has goals galore. Couldn’t care less about it but why should you or anyone else get a veto on it? There just aren’t plenty of non traditional alternatives around at all, 5 a side for instance is there any high end televised competitions ?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 22, 2023 16:13:57 GMT
Not happening folks, worry over.... How would he achieve that? When you're the son of a toolmaker, grew up in a pebbledash semi and your sister is so poor she has to make sandwiches when she meets you at the pub, you're steely minded enough to be able to achieve anything........
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 22, 2023 16:22:07 GMT
I couldn’t care less about something like this coming in to the UK. People who like TikTok will like it I’m sure. There are plenty of non-traditional football alternatives around. 5 a side is a good example of something that just has goals galore. Couldn’t care less about it but why should you or anyone else get a veto on it? There just aren’t plenty of non traditional alternatives around at all, 5 a side for instance is there any high end televised competitions ? If there was interest, there would be tv. If there isn’t enough interest, there isn’t tv. I wouldn’t want to veto the TikTok football league. I’m sure lots of children would love to watch people not good enough to make it professionally kick a ball around because they’ve seen them do weird 20 second dances in McDonalds.
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Post by thisisouryear on Dec 22, 2023 16:26:31 GMT
I'm probably in the minority but I wouldn't mind a European super league. I like watching champions league games because they are quality teams playing eachother all the time. The elite clubs here are never going to get touched for any serious period of time. We will never win the Prem, we will be lucky to see another team outside the big 6/8 win it. There's a very small group of teams that will win the Prem, it was ruined years ago. I'm all for different competitions, the game is at a point where it's not going to go back, the big clubs are just too big. UEFA and FIFA are bent and always have been, I have no sympathy for them if the big clubs turn their backs on them.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 16:33:20 GMT
Couldn’t care less about it but why should you or anyone else get a veto on it? There just aren’t plenty of non traditional alternatives around at all, 5 a side for instance is there any high end televised competitions ? If there was interest, there would be tv. If there isn’t enough interest, there isn’t tv. I wouldn’t want to veto the TikTok football league. I’m sure lots of children would love to watch people not good enough to make it professionally kick a ball around because they’ve seen them do weird 20 second dances in McDonalds. Exactly why should anyone interested in an alternative have to put up with that. That’s exactly why it doesn’t exist because proper players aren’t allowed to take part just nobody’s and has beens. Needs the top players involved like 20/20 franchise cricket. If it’s just an idea for children and idiots why is a former world class CB instigating it in Spain don’t tell me you know far more about the game than him too FFS.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 22, 2023 16:44:31 GMT
If there was interest, there would be tv. If there isn’t enough interest, there isn’t tv. I wouldn’t want to veto the TikTok football league. I’m sure lots of children would love to watch people not good enough to make it professionally kick a ball around because they’ve seen them do weird 20 second dances in McDonalds. Exactly why should anyone interested in an alternative have to put up with that. That’s exactly why it doesn’t exist because proper players aren’t allowed to take part just nobody’s and has beens. Needs the top players involved like 20/20 franchise cricket. If it’s just an idea for children and idiots why is a former world class CB instigating it in Spain don’t tell me you know far more about the game than him too FFS. Because he’s making money from it? Why does anyone do anything? He’s investing in it because TikTok is huge and if you can put people all in one place, they’ll create a lot of money. You also have a lot of TikTok stars in boxing. It doesn’t mean it’s good to watch.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 16:52:46 GMT
Exactly why should anyone interested in an alternative have to put up with that. That’s exactly why it doesn’t exist because proper players aren’t allowed to take part just nobody’s and has beens. Needs the top players involved like 20/20 franchise cricket. If it’s just an idea for children and idiots why is a former world class CB instigating it in Spain don’t tell me you know far more about the game than him too FFS. Because he’s making money from it? Why does anyone do anything? He’s investing in it because TikTok is huge and if you can put people all in one place, they’ll create a lot of money. You also have a lot of TikTok stars in boxing. It doesn’t mean it’s good to watch. Make your mind up a couple of posts ago it didn’t happen because there was no demand because no one wants to watch it .
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Dec 22, 2023 16:55:29 GMT
Sooner or later it will happen. Because of money.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 22, 2023 17:05:38 GMT
Because he’s making money from it? Why does anyone do anything? He’s investing in it because TikTok is huge and if you can put people all in one place, they’ll create a lot of money. You also have a lot of TikTok stars in boxing. It doesn’t mean it’s good to watch. Make your mind up a couple of posts ago it didn’t happen because there was no demand because no one wants to watch it . Sorry, I should have been more clear. I said that 5 a side doesn’t have a big tv following because there’s no money/demand in it. That is why it never happened. If a tv company could make money off of something, they would. Pique is now investing in a 7 a side version that uses TikTok stars to promote the product. That is where the money is. The money is coming from the fame of non-professional footballers all getting together and playing football. It’s the same principle as the introduction of social media stars in boxing exhibitions. If that’s what floats your boat, that’s fine. I’m sure there will be a lot of fun events that happen in it and the smaller player format almost guarantees more goals. It’s a new alternative to football that doesn’t require ripping up something that is widely viewed and loved by many.
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Post by idle on Dec 22, 2023 18:53:41 GMT
And why should those of us who see and enjoy football as a sport want to see the game turned into the travesty you keep banging on about? You might want it to be just a branch of the entertainment industry and you may have some of the video game generation on your side but stop claiming you speak for everybody because you don't. You may actually be right and football will split into two codes - one designed for tv and one designed for actual sports fans. In some ways that might be a good thing - the likes of Man Utd and Chelseas can sod off and turn themselves into the footballing equivalent of the Harlem Globe Trotters and proper football can get back to to being a competitive sport that isn't skewed by stupid money and media interests. Oh and take VAR with you. Eventually you've hit the nail on the head. Why should you or people who think like you be able to block such developments. People would then have the choice to take in one, the other, both or neither. What's your problem with that? The problem is that (go back in the thread) is that the clubs want BOTH. They want to be in both the ESL and the national leagues, and the national league clubs below those who are "invited" into this rich mans club doesn't get to compete. That was what the case was about - that the UEFA cannot tell them to "if you join this competition, you can't participate ine the CL or the national leagues". If those clubs only tried to start their own euroleague american style, I'd be happy. Good riddance, and don't fucking come back. But they want to have their cake and eat it too. While it's hard for a non top 6(8?) club to qualify to the CL, it's possible. We went to the Europa League, remember? This time it's invitation only, and they'll be promised shitloads of money, much much more than they already have. Money that is then used to further the gap between the "in" clubs and the rest. And thus sementing their dominance forever. Who the wants that (except greedy owners and fuckers like Messi and Ronaldo, Henderson and the other greedy cunts who go to Saudi-Arabia) ?
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 23, 2023 0:14:26 GMT
Not happening folks, worry over.... Hmmmmmm
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