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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 16:25:07 GMT
Even though they say the existing governing bodies cannot oppose it, it wont work. No football supporter of any of the top clubs would want it. Obviously it could not run in tandem with a domestic premier league. So they would have to leave the premier league and forfeit the huge sums of money it brings. It will never work Why can't it run in tandem with the domestic premier league? I read it that the new Super League would just replace the existing UEFA competitions which do run in parallel Pretty sure it can and would.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 21, 2023 16:25:37 GMT
Even though they say the existing governing bodies cannot oppose it, it wont work. No football supporter of any of the top clubs would want it. Obviously it could not run in tandem with a domestic premier league. So they would have to leave the premier league and forfeit the huge sums of money it brings. It will never work Why can't it run in tandem with the domestic premier league? I read it that the new Super League would just replace the existing UEFA competitions which do run in parallel If they generate a 3-tier league system and you don’t need to win the PL to get into the top tier, why would the top teams bother? They would either leave and concentrate on their “Super League” or have two sides, the second of which will take away more talent from other clubs.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 21, 2023 16:32:04 GMT
I have no idea about cricket. It was always an upper class game anyway, so let them wallow in their own ideology. Traditionalists are stuffy eh? Well, if name calling is enough argument for you, modernists are utterly naïve. "We must move forward", while it goes to shit. If you think football is better these days, then good for you. I think it's worse in so many ways. We are moving away from all those things that made football great. The immediacy, the local patriotism, the commonality and togetherness.
I've advocated it before, and I'll never give up on the idea that fans should be the sole owners of a football club. Private ownership shouldn't be allowed to exist. At all. It's the only way to curb the corruption and greed in football. I'm an eternal optimist though, so maybe the super league is what sparks a new model of football. One that has the fans and the community in the front. Not the fucked up killers and leeches we have today in the PL and beyond. Yes generally speaking I think football is a better spectacle than it was in my youth. It's faster more skilful there are more goals, its more entertaining and less negative but I don't think it's gone anywhere near far enough anywhere near fast enough. Negative play (holding on to what you start with) is still all too common. 0-0's are less frequent but 1 is 1 too many. Teams that fail to score should be guaranteed nothing from a game. Teams that score a lot of goals in a game should get a bonus. There are numerous things that could be tried to incentivise entertaining football and discourage boring spoiling football and also ensure fans get the amount of play they pay to see. The referees directive on added time was bottled within a couple of weeks. As far as all that weird togetherness etc is concerned I just don't buy into all that I've never been a tribal football fan. I'd be just as happy standing/sitting next to an opposition fan as I would a Stoke fan. I do agree with fans having a meaningful stake in a club but I think sole ownership would only serve as a geographical closed shop, closed shop's are part of what you're objecting to. Maybe you should take in an IPL game. If you don't like cricket just watch the crowd, they don't look very upper class to me. They do get a bonus for scoring extra goals, it’s called goal difference. Football is more than just goals. If every game finished 7-5, people would soon get bored and be crying out for “more goals”. More goals doesn’t guarantee a better end product. Crying out for more goals in games isn’t a move towards modernity, it’s just a move towards Americanization.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 16:44:23 GMT
Why can't it run in tandem with the domestic premier league? I read it that the new Super League would just replace the existing UEFA competitions which do run in parallel If they generate a 3-tier league system and you don’t need to win the PL to get into the top tier, why would the top teams bother? They would either leave and concentrate on their “Super League” or have two sides, the second of which will take away more talent from other clubs. When was the last time you had to win the premier league to get to the group stage of the champions league, 1980's? I would have thought teams from smaller European leagues would make up the lower tiers and have to earn promotion to get in with the big boys. Doubt it would affect teams from the major leagues greatly, just less rubbish fixtures and big guns coming up against each other in virtually every fixture right from the beginning of the competition. Don't people want to see the best vs the best as often as possible and isn't the absence of that what makes international football such a chore?
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Post by J-Roar on Dec 21, 2023 16:44:34 GMT
Why can't it run in tandem with the domestic premier league? I read it that the new Super League would just replace the existing UEFA competitions which do run in parallel If they generate a 3-tier league system and you don’t need to win the PL to get into the top tier, why would the top teams bother? They would either leave and concentrate on their “Super League” or have two sides, the second of which will take away more talent from other clubs. Because they all want to win something. The domestic league would still be worth winning. You're right though - it will just mean bigger squads for these clubs. It's obviously not right but as soon as bigger clubs started throwing their weight about it was only going to go one way. Throw the Saudis into the mix and the whole thing has accelerated.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 16:53:14 GMT
Yes generally speaking I think football is a better spectacle than it was in my youth. It's faster more skilful there are more goals, its more entertaining and less negative but I don't think it's gone anywhere near far enough anywhere near fast enough. Negative play (holding on to what you start with) is still all too common. 0-0's are less frequent but 1 is 1 too many. Teams that fail to score should be guaranteed nothing from a game. Teams that score a lot of goals in a game should get a bonus. There are numerous things that could be tried to incentivise entertaining football and discourage boring spoiling football and also ensure fans get the amount of play they pay to see. The referees directive on added time was bottled within a couple of weeks. As far as all that weird togetherness etc is concerned I just don't buy into all that I've never been a tribal football fan. I'd be just as happy standing/sitting next to an opposition fan as I would a Stoke fan. I do agree with fans having a meaningful stake in a club but I think sole ownership would only serve as a geographical closed shop, closed shop's are part of what you're objecting to. Maybe you should take in an IPL game. If you don't like cricket just watch the crowd, they don't look very upper class to me. They do get a bonus for scoring extra goals, it’s called goal difference. Football is more than just goals. If every game finished 7-5, people would soon get bored and be crying out for “more goals”. More goals doesn’t guarantee a better end product. Crying out for more goals in games isn’t a move towards modernity, it’s just a move towards Americanization. Goal difference is not enough of an incentive as it often doesn't come into play at all. It needs to be something more tangible. Bonus point for scoring 4 or more for example. Guess what they did it in Rugby and the sky didn't fall in. I disagree people would get bored. They'd be just be getting their moneys worth rather than two hours with the possibility of no critical incidents and all too often only one or two. Call it what you want. I'm not an American just very English and I'd still like to see a far greater concentration of critical incidents in games
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2023 16:57:54 GMT
If this plan is for the richest clubs in Europe, am I correct to assume Stoke will be one of any four English teams involved?
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Post by tejstokie on Dec 21, 2023 17:01:26 GMT
Just don't go to those matches anymore. Fans run the roust. No money, no fans, no superleague. People have to vote with their feet and money.
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Post by spiderpuss on Dec 21, 2023 17:03:23 GMT
Saudi premier league as it's now known.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 17:03:58 GMT
If this plan is for the richest clubs in Europe, am I correct to assume Stoke will be one of any four English teams involved? Doubt it very much being as we aren't anywhere near and never have been. You're getting confused between the club and the entire fortune of it's owners. If you asked them to stake their entire worth I think you'd be getting answers you don't seem to have considered.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 17:07:29 GMT
Just don't go to those matches anymore. Fans run the roust. No money, no fans, no superleague. People have to vote with their feet and money. The money through the turnstiles is inconsequential. They could pay people to attend and the competition would still be viable. You have a better chance cancelling your tv subscriptions but it would be you and about 6 others, not sure anyone would notice.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Dec 21, 2023 17:08:17 GMT
Just a few points. As we understand it, the ECJ has not ruled that UEFA/FIFA don't have the power to prevent new competitions under their pre-approval rules, and it certainly hasn't given legal approval to the previous or any future proposal. It has ruled that the application of those rules, as they existed at the time of the application was not lawful. UEFA is reviewing those rules and will no doubt amend them with the intention of bringing them inside European law. Of course, since Brexit the ECJ no longer has jurisdiction in this country. As you will recall, the attempted break-away by 6 clubs was the trigger which persuaded Boris to activate the manifesto commitment to set up a Fan-led review. Ironically, in that sense the 6 did us all a big favour The review was conducted by Tracey Crouch MP and recommended, inter-alia, that a new Independent Regulator would set up. This was in the King's speech and has cross-party support so its Parliamentary passage should be straightforward. The Government made a strong statement this morning that the new regulator will ensure that any Clubs which enter such a breakaway will be prevented from playing in the PL. No doubt today's ruling will make the Parliamentary drafters look closely at the wording to ensure that it is legally watertight. The last proposal was stopped by fan power, not only here but across Europe, and including the fans of the 6 wannabee breakaways. I believe that opposition would resurface very quickly against any such new proposal, and I believe that the fans would win again, supported by the new Regulator. Any proposal to significantly alter the structure of our game should not be undertaken without the support of fans, both here and through our colleagues in Football Supporters Europe, with whom we are liaising closely on this. Without us, there is no professional game. I did a piece for BBC TV news earlier today which might be on the 6 and/or 10 o'clock bulletins. Just agreed to do BBC news at 7.15 Just seen that Man Utd have given a statement confirming their commitment to the current arrangements Edit - and Sky News at 9.30 ( already done Sky sports news ! ) - busy day !
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2023 17:19:11 GMT
If this plan is for the richest clubs in Europe, am I correct to assume Stoke will be one of any four English teams involved? Doubt it very much being as we aren't anywhere near and never have been. You're getting confused between the club and the entire fortune of it's owners. If you asked them to stake their entire worth I think you'd be getting answers you don't seem to have considered. Will ManC and Newcastle be involved. They are the two clubs with richer owners? Or ManU who will overtake us when Jim’s £Bs become fully available?
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2023 17:20:56 GMT
Just a few points. As we understand it, the ECJ has not ruled that UEFA/FIFA don't have the power to prevent new competitions under their pre-approval rules, and it certainly hasn't given legal approval to the previous or any future proposal. It has ruled that the application of those rules, as they existed at the time of the application was not lawful. UEFA is reviewing those rules and will no doubt amend them with the intention of bringing them inside European law. Of course, since Brexit the ECJ no longer has jurisdiction in this country. As you will recall, the attempted break-away by 6 clubs was the trigger which persuaded Boris to activate the manifesto commitment to set up a Fan-led review. Ironically, in that sense the 6 did us all a big favour The review was conducted by Tracey Crouch MP and recommended, inter-alia, that a new Independent Regulator would set up. This was in the King's speech and has cross-party support so its Parliamentary passage should be straightforward. The Government made a strong statement this morning that the new regulator will ensure that any Clubs which enter such a breakaway will be prevented from playing in the PL. No doubt today's ruling will make the Parliamentary drafters look closely at the wording to ensure that it is legally watertight. The last proposal was stopped by fan power, not only here but across Europe, and including the fans of the 6 wannabee breakaways. I believe that opposition would resurface very quickly against any such new proposal, and I believe that the fans would win again, supported by the new Regulator. Any proposal to significantly alter the structure of our game should not be undertaken without the support of fans, both here and through our colleagues in Football Supporters Europe, with whom we are liaising closely on this. Without us, there is no professional game. I did a piece for BBC TV news earlier today which might be on the 6 and/or 10 o'clock bulletins. Just agreed to do BBC news at 7.15 Just seen that Man Utd have given a statement confirming their commitment to the current arrangements Well done Malcolm. Thank you for the update. I’m sure you will put the case brilliantly. Good luck.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 18:11:56 GMT
Doubt it very much being as we aren't anywhere near and never have been. You're getting confused between the club and the entire fortune of it's owners. If you asked them to stake their entire worth I think you'd be getting answers you don't seem to have considered. Will ManC and Newcastle be involved. They are the two clubs with richer owners? Or ManU who will overtake us when Jim’s £Bs become fully available? But as you well know the wealth of the club owners is largely irrelevant as any non turnover investment is limited. If the Coates were willing to decimate their fortunes they could and should have invested a whole lot more when they were able to do so whilst we were in the prem. They had no interest in doing so and never came anywhere close to what they could have put in in any of the seasons we were at that level.
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Post by idle on Dec 21, 2023 18:20:41 GMT
Unetidad Europa Futbol Association? Or summat?
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Dec 21, 2023 18:26:12 GMT
A22 can go and fuck themselves. There is no benefit to football by their greed driven ESL proposal, it's just simply to line the pockets of an elite few.
Football's strength is in the depth of the pyramid and the constant churn of hopefulls looking for their shot at the big time. The ESL would ossify what is a dynamic and fascinating culture by widening the financial gulf yet further.
The fans' outrage killed this stone dead last time and they should do so again.
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Post by idle on Dec 21, 2023 18:30:39 GMT
They do get a bonus for scoring extra goals, it’s called goal difference. Football is more than just goals. If every game finished 7-5, people would soon get bored and be crying out for “more goals”. More goals doesn’t guarantee a better end product. Crying out for more goals in games isn’t a move towards modernity, it’s just a move towards Americanization. Goal difference is not enough of an incentive as it often doesn't come into play at all. It needs to be something more tangible. Bonus point for scoring 4 or more for example. Guess what they did it in Rugby and the sky didn't fall in. I disagree people would get bored. They'd be just be getting their moneys worth rather than two hours with the possibility of no critical incidents and all too often only one or two. Call it what you want. I'm not an American just very English and I'd still like to see a far greater concentration of critical incidents in games While I recognize your liking for more more More MORE! goals, it's precisely what sets football apart from the other teams sports. Basketball, handball, rugby, hockey, the one thing they ahve in common is more goals or points than football. And yet, football is the most popular. Imagine that. Could it possibly be that more goals isn't what makes watching football better than the other sports? But go on, people like you have been nagging about low scoring games since the italians invented the 4-4-2 defence. It's never the fans who's clamoring for more goals. It's always the TV broadcasters that need more highlights to show and the plastic fans in their sofas needing more goals to look up from their mobiles. And you even admit to missing out on THE key element of football fandom. The tribalism and the ecstacy of our common team scoring a goal and winning a game.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Dec 21, 2023 18:47:15 GMT
There is one ridiculous irony here. The Premier League changed football forever in England in 1992 and ushered in massive TV distribution rights and a flood of money.
Along with that then all the rich owners got involved. Originally it was rich Russians who wanted to own a plaything and no problem with losing money.
Now the latest owners (Americans are the worst) and now the Saudi's are trying to wrest control and make this European Super League and actually make more money. The Premier League allowed this from right under their noses, with their ridiculous owners test and FFP rules.
How can the Premier League now suddenly act like guardian of the game?? They started this whole bloody thing and changing football from a sport into a business.
Do they think we have no memory of the last 30 years? Also its the main reason the likes of Barca-Madrid-Juventus want to make an ESL so they can compete with the English clubs who are generating the most revenue.
The Premier League set European Football onto a trajectory that makes a European Super League not just likely but inevitable.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 21, 2023 19:02:40 GMT
Goal difference is not enough of an incentive as it often doesn't come into play at all. It needs to be something more tangible. Bonus point for scoring 4 or more for example. Guess what they did it in Rugby and the sky didn't fall in. I disagree people would get bored. They'd be just be getting their moneys worth rather than two hours with the possibility of no critical incidents and all too often only one or two. Call it what you want. I'm not an American just very English and I'd still like to see a far greater concentration of critical incidents in games While I recognize your liking for more more More MORE! goals, it's precisely what sets football apart from the other teams sports. Basketball, handball, rugby, hockey, the one thing they ahve in common is more goals or points than football. And yet, football is the most popular. Imagine that. Could it possibly be that more goals isn't what makes watching football better than the other sports? But go on, people like you have been nagging about low scoring games since the italians invented the 4-4-2 defence. It's never the fans who's clamoring for more goals. It's always the TV broadcasters that need more highlights to show and the plastic fans in their sofas needing more goals to look up from their mobiles. And you even admit to missing out on THE key element of football fandom. The tribalism and the ecstacy of our common team scoring a goal and winning a game. Fans don’t want more goals? Are you able to reference any research into that ? People like me, what people who pay to attend football matches. How can I miss out on something I have no concept of? I’m not a tribal person, choosing to watch the same football team as you doesn’t lead me to think we have anything in common over and above that. I’ve regularly attended Stoke games for 40 odd years and enjoy a good game as much as anyone unfortunately how often do we get a good game. I mean what a prick fancy wanting it to be enjoyable more often.
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Post by Pugsley on Dec 21, 2023 19:11:27 GMT
Ahhhh, the sunlit uplands of a ESL.
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Post by idle on Dec 21, 2023 19:16:01 GMT
While I recognize your liking for more more More MORE! goals, it's precisely what sets football apart from the other teams sports. Basketball, handball, rugby, hockey, the one thing they ahve in common is more goals or points than football. And yet, football is the most popular. Imagine that. Could it possibly be that more goals isn't what makes watching football better than the other sports? But go on, people like you have been nagging about low scoring games since the italians invented the 4-4-2 defence. It's never the fans who's clamoring for more goals. It's always the TV broadcasters that need more highlights to show and the plastic fans in their sofas needing more goals to look up from their mobiles. And you even admit to missing out on THE key element of football fandom. The tribalism and the ecstacy of our common team scoring a goal and winning a game. Fans don’t want more goals? Are you able to reference any research into that ? People like me, what people who pay to attend football matches. How can I miss out on something I have no concept of? I’m not a tribal person, choosing to watch the same football team as you doesn’t lead me to think we have anything in common over and above that. I’ve regularly attended Stoke games for 40 odd years and enjoy a good game as much as anyone unfortunately how often do we get a good game. I mean what a prick fancy wanting it to be enjoyable more often. Research? On what fans want? That doesn't exist. You could ask stadium fans what they want, and they probably will say the same as me: I like attacking football, I really do, but that's because I love my team going for it more than I like them being pinned back. Attack is the best defence, after all. But they all love winning more than high-scoring games. Just look on this message board on the difference if we win 1-0 compared to losing 2-3, or even a 3-3 draw. Most on here don't care about goals as long as we score more than the opposition. I reckon that's the same on the terraces all over the world. But the fact is, football, with it's low scoring games, is vastly more popular than any other team sports, at least in the western hemisphere. You can try all you want, but that punches a giant hole in your theory about what fans really want. More goals is not the same as better football to watch. On the contrary. I hate that 7-1 and 8-0 is a common result in the PL nowadays. It boring.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Dec 21, 2023 20:08:04 GMT
There is one ridiculous irony here. The Premier League changed football forever in England in 1992 and ushered in massive TV distribution rights and a flood of money. Along with that then all the rich owners got involved. Originally it was rich Russians who wanted to own a plaything and no problem with losing money. Now the latest owners (Americans are the worst) and now the Saudi's are trying to wrest control and make this European Super League and actually make more money. The Premier League allowed this from right under their noses, with their ridiculous owners test and FFP rules. How can the Premier League now suddenly act like guardian of the game?? They started this whole bloody thing and changing football from a sport into a business. Do they think we have no memory of the last 30 years? Also its the main reason the likes of Barca-Madrid-Juventus want to make an ESL so they can compete with the English clubs who are generating the most revenue. The Premier League set European Football onto a trajectory that makes a European Super League not just likely but inevitable. I agree with all that apart from the last 9 words !
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Post by maninasuitcase on Dec 21, 2023 21:57:15 GMT
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Post by a on Dec 22, 2023 0:25:59 GMT
Unetidad Europa Futbol Association? Or summat? Close enough 😂
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Post by BlurtonRed on Dec 22, 2023 4:29:02 GMT
It comes down too basically Juventus, Inter/AC Milan, Barcelona and too an extent Real Madrid can't compete financially with the Premier League.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 10:49:00 GMT
Fans don’t want more goals? Are you able to reference any research into that ? People like me, what people who pay to attend football matches. How can I miss out on something I have no concept of? I’m not a tribal person, choosing to watch the same football team as you doesn’t lead me to think we have anything in common over and above that. I’ve regularly attended Stoke games for 40 odd years and enjoy a good game as much as anyone unfortunately how often do we get a good game. I mean what a prick fancy wanting it to be enjoyable more often. Research? On what fans want? That doesn't exist. You could ask stadium fans what they want, and they probably will say the same as me: I like attacking football, I really do, but that's because I love my team going for it more than I like them being pinned back. Attack is the best defence, after all. But they all love winning more than high-scoring games. Just look on this message board on the difference if we win 1-0 compared to losing 2-3, or even a 3-3 draw. Most on here don't care about goals as long as we score more than the opposition. I reckon that's the same on the terraces all over the world. But the fact is, football, with it's low scoring games, is vastly more popular than any other team sports, at least in the western hemisphere. You can try all you want, but that punches a giant hole in your theory about what fans really want. More goals is not the same as better football to watch. On the contrary. I hate that 7-1 and 8-0 is a common result in the PL nowadays. It boring. I just don’t think it’s only about the fans in the ground. I’ve not stopped going to Stoke games even though they often bore me to tears. I used to watch football on tv at least 3 or 4 nights a week now I watch more or less no football at all bar Stoke games. What would make me watch again? More goals more incident. I like what 20/20 delivers for me, an over without incident is very unusual and I’d like to see a version of football adapted similarly and don’t see why anyone should be able to veto that. All the arguments presented against are I like it as it is/was and it must stay the same. I don’t think anyone should have the right to block these things It’s a simple principle exactly as it applied to 20/20 and franchise cricket, if you don’t like it don’t go/watch, if somebody or group wants to pursue them let the audience/spectators decide. I’ve absolutely no interest in more of the same format ie the ESL proposal but the ability of governing bodies to block things applies to all innovations they’re not on board with and that’s why I think the ruling is positive.
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Post by nott1 on Dec 22, 2023 11:29:09 GMT
Why can't it run in tandem with the domestic premier league? I read it that the new Super League would just replace the existing UEFA competitions which do run in parallel Pretty sure it can and would. Looks like no english clubs seem keen to take part perhaps due to the furore last time it was proposed.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 22, 2023 11:46:35 GMT
Will ManC and Newcastle be involved. They are the two clubs with richer owners? Or ManU who will overtake us when Jim’s £Bs become fully available? But as you well know the wealth of the club owners is largely irrelevant as any non turnover investment is limited. If the Coates were willing to decimate their fortunes they could and should have invested a whole lot more when they were able to do so whilst we were in the prem. They had no interest in doing so and never came anywhere close to what they could have put in in any of the seasons we were at that level. "Should"? It's not your money.
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Post by baconburger on Dec 22, 2023 11:54:57 GMT
But as you well know the wealth of the club owners is largely irrelevant as any non turnover investment is limited. If the Coates were willing to decimate their fortunes they could and should have invested a whole lot more when they were able to do so whilst we were in the prem. They had no interest in doing so and never came anywhere close to what they could have put in in any of the seasons we were at that level. "Should"? It's not your money. Does the word "IF" escape you? Not they should have been willing to decimate their fortune but "if" they were. As in "if" they were willing to piss fifty odd million up the wall they "should" have done it before we got relegated not immediately afterwards. "should" as in they were fookin stupid not to.
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