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Post by svengaliinplatforms on Sept 27, 2023 11:12:50 GMT
It doesn’t just happen out of nowhere by magic, though, it happens for a reason. The worry is that this doesn’t look like a patch of inconsistency, it looks like a systemic issue that the manager is either blind to, stubbornly persisting with anyway or doesn’t know how to fix. Based on what, 8 games? No, around 50.
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 11:13:25 GMT
I agree, but then the season is 46 games long, most teams will go through patches of inconsistency in a 46 game season. Some games though you could argue we deserved points, definatley goals, that's the nature of football, sometimes you get the rub of the green. We could have out of the blocks like Usain bolt ourselves, there is no saying the form teams will sustain it either, they may have issues when we go through our streak, it's a long season. We come on strong second half of season where they fall away it happens, every season He's been here a year and shown no signs he can shape a team. When have we come on strong in the second half of a season? Straw clutching. You're basing everything on crossing your fingers and hoping everything will be OK. Are you John Coates? I wish. I'm basing it on 8 games though and a new squad, you're basing it on 10 months of an excuse of one. When have we come on strong in the second half of the season?.. with regards to this you're also saying I'm in blind hope but you're in blind pessimisim. You dont know we won't have a strong second half because we are not there yet, not even half way there. Alex Neil hasn't had input to wether we come on strong in second halves of seasons because he hasn't been here other than last season when pep himself would have done well to get a tune out of that excuse for a squad. If I'm a manager and you're going to bash me, bash me with my own team but at least give me a chance to do something with it. Again, the grass is always greener. Sack Jim, sack him now, it's insane
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 27, 2023 11:27:07 GMT
He's been here a year and shown no signs he can shape a team. When have we come on strong in the second half of a season? Straw clutching. You're basing everything on crossing your fingers and hoping everything will be OK. Are you John Coates? I wish. I'm basing it on 8 games though and a new squad, you're basing it on 10 months of an excuse of one. When have we come on strong in the second half of the season?.. with regards to this you're also saying I'm in blind hope but you're in blind pessimisim. You dont know we won't have a strong second half because we are not there yet, not even half way there. Alex Neil hasn't had input to wether we come on strong in second halves of seasons because he hasn't been here other than last season when pep himself would have done well to get a tune out of that excuse for a squad. If I'm a manager and you're going to bash me, bash me with my own team but at least give me a chance to do something with it. Again, the grass is always greener. Sack Jim, sack him now, it's insane Only 8 of 23 managers in the Championship have been in post longer than AN. When MON left he was 3rd I think. We exhibit more patience towards failing managers than probably any other team in the country.
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 11:27:27 GMT
I agree, but then the season is 46 games long, most teams will go through patches of inconsistency in a 46 game season. Some games though you could argue we deserved points, definatley goals, that's the nature of football, sometimes you get the rub of the green. We could have out of the blocks like Usain bolt ourselves, there is no saying the form teams will sustain it either, they may have issues when we go through our streak, it's a long season. We come on strong second half of season where they fall away it happens, every season It doesn’t just happen out of nowhere by magic, though, it happens for a reason. The worry is that this doesn’t look like a patch of inconsistency, it looks like a systemic issue that the manager is either blind to, stubbornly persisting with anyway or doesn’t know how to fix. As frustrating as it is, and it is, I can't come to a fair conclusion he's a failure after 8 games with a whole new squad that has been unfortunately plauged by injuries in key areas. Me personally I believe a fair assessment is after a full season, I know it won't get to that though if results don't change quickly such is the nature of the beast. It's counter productive though and proven to be ( at this club) in my view, this sacking culture
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 11:30:54 GMT
I wish. I'm basing it on 8 games though and a new squad, you're basing it on 10 months of an excuse of one. When have we come on strong in the second half of the season?.. with regards to this you're also saying I'm in blind hope but you're in blind pessimisim. You dont know we won't have a strong second half because we are not there yet, not even half way there. Alex Neil hasn't had input to wether we come on strong in second halves of seasons because he hasn't been here other than last season when pep himself would have done well to get a tune out of that excuse for a squad. If I'm a manager and you're going to bash me, bash me with my own team but at least give me a chance to do something with it. Again, the grass is always greener. Sack Jim, sack him now, it's insane Only 8 of 23 managers in the Championship have been in post longer than AN. When MON left he was 3rd I think. We exhibit more patience towards failing managers than probably any team in the country. That maybe the case, it maybe the case that that's why they're not improving under multiple managers too. Instant fix or gone? It's daft and it come from abroad. There is more than one way of doing things. It's an advantage to stick and let them build when they're swapping and changing at any and every opportunity. They're not getting the long term benefits of stability, this is we takung a different avenue level up
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 27, 2023 11:35:34 GMT
It doesn’t just happen out of nowhere by magic, though, it happens for a reason. The worry is that this doesn’t look like a patch of inconsistency, it looks like a systemic issue that the manager is either blind to, stubbornly persisting with anyway or doesn’t know how to fix. As frustrating as it is, and it is, I can't come to a fair conclusion he's a failure after 8 games with a whole new squad that has been unfortunately plauged by injuries in key areas. Me personally I believe a fair assessment is after a full season, I know it won't get to that though if results don't change quickly such is the nature of the beast. It's counter productive though and proven to be ( at this club) in my view this sacking culture The sacking culture in itself isn’t the problem - every single manager we’ve sacked in the last 10 years deserved to be. It’s the appointment process and the lack of joined up thinking above it that’s been the issue. Would you have given Nathan Jones a full 46 game season. I don’t think it’s quite time to write Neil off yet but another 3-4 games like Sunday in this current run with no signs of improvement and what would the case for him staying be?
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 11:45:25 GMT
As frustrating as it is, and it is, I can't come to a fair conclusion he's a failure after 8 games with a whole new squad that has been unfortunately plauged by injuries in key areas. Me personally I believe a fair assessment is after a full season, I know it won't get to that though if results don't change quickly such is the nature of the beast. It's counter productive though and proven to be ( at this club) in my view this sacking culture The sacking culture in itself isn’t the problem - every single manager we’ve sacked in the last 10 years deserved to be. It’s the appointment process and the lack of joined up thinking above it that’s been the issue. Would you have given Nathan Jones a full 46 game season. I don’t think it’s quite time to write Neil off yet but another 3-4 games like Sunday in this current run with no signs of improvement and what would the case for him staying be? I think it is the problem, unless you've got the crem de le crem of footballers at your disposal like top 6 big clubs where any man with half a brain should walk in and fix it. In the second division you're dealing without the very top level players its pretty much an even playing field, You've got to be smart in your moves, you've got to take the small advantages that can give you the edge. A smart move in my view is selecting a manager and let him build an effective team. That's an advantage because most don't do it. They dont get the time to identify the players they want to take the club forward. There is more than one way to skin a cat
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 11:50:51 GMT
Right now we're building up a data base of players Neil wants to take the club forward, come November clubs start sacking managers and the next man wants a totally different type of player.
That puts them at an instant disadvantage with a shorter time frame to identify said player as a realistic target whilst also trying to move on who they don't want
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Post by svengaliinplatforms on Sept 27, 2023 12:03:22 GMT
He's been here a year and shown no signs he can shape a team. When have we come on strong in the second half of a season? Straw clutching. You're basing everything on crossing your fingers and hoping everything will be OK. Are you John Coates? I wish. I'm basing it on 8 games though and a new squad, you're basing it on 10 months of an excuse of one. When have we come on strong in the second half of the season?.. with regards to this you're also saying I'm in blind hope but you're in blind pessimisim. You dont know we won't have a strong second half because we are not there yet, not even half way there. Alex Neil hasn't had input to wether we come on strong in second halves of seasons because he hasn't been here other than last season when pep himself would have done well to get a tune out of that excuse for a squad. If I'm a manager and you're going to bash me, bash me with my own team but at least give me a chance to do something with it. Again, the grass is always greener. Sack Jim, sack him now, it's insane Granted. But you do have to take a view on how he performed with the 'excuse of a squad' he inherited. Does he get a completely free hit? And he only gets judged from the point in time that he's got his 'own squad'? Maybe.
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 27, 2023 12:04:31 GMT
Only 8 of 23 managers in the Championship have been in post longer than AN. When MON left he was 3rd I think. We exhibit more patience towards failing managers than probably any team in the country. That maybe the case, it maybe the case that that's why they're not improving under multiple managers too. Instant fix or gone? It's daft and it come from abroad. There is more than one way of doing things. It's an advantage to stick and let them build when they're swapping and changing at any and every opportunity. They're not getting the long term benefits of stability, this is we takung a different avenue level up I think you have it entirely the wrong way round. It’s our strategy that lacks long-term vision because we hand over full control of all aspects of the club to manager after manager, who inevitably have to be sacked and we start all over again. What “long-term benefits of stability” have we reaped from this approach in the last eight years or so? Now more than ever football is a results business and managers almost invariably have to be sacked. Far better to have a strategy and structure in place so that turnover can be executed quickly and efficiently with minimal disruption and without the upheaval of major course correction to the overall progress of the club. It’s our approach that is short-termism.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 27, 2023 12:07:33 GMT
The sacking culture in itself isn’t the problem - every single manager we’ve sacked in the last 10 years deserved to be. It’s the appointment process and the lack of joined up thinking above it that’s been the issue. Would you have given Nathan Jones a full 46 game season. I don’t think it’s quite time to write Neil off yet but another 3-4 games like Sunday in this current run with no signs of improvement and what would the case for him staying be? I think it is the problem, unless you've got the crem de le crem of footballers at your disposal like top 6 big clubs where any man with half a brain should walk in and fix it. In the second division you're dealing without the very top level players its pretty much an even playing field, You've got to be smart in your moves, you've got to take the small advantages that can give you the edge. A smart move in my view is selecting a manager and let him build an effective team. That's an advantage because most don't do it. They dont get the time to identify the players they want to take the club forward. There is more than one way to skin a cat But what if they're not capable of building it? I refer you to my Jones example again. Would you have given him the full season?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 27, 2023 12:08:49 GMT
Right now we're building up a data base of players Neil wants to take the club forward, come November clubs start sacking managers and the next man wants a totally different type of player. That puts them at an instant disadvantage with a shorter time frame to identify said player as a realistic target whilst also trying to move on who they don't want That's why more and more clubs have moved away from the manager-driven structure that we put so much faith in still. To lessen that upheaval when a manager moves on.
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 12:13:16 GMT
Right now we're building up a data base of players Neil wants to take the club forward, come November clubs start sacking managers and the next man wants a totally different type of player. That puts them at an instant disadvantage with a shorter time frame to identify said player as a realistic target whilst also trying to move on who they don't want That's why more and more clubs have moved away from the manager-driven structure that we put so much faith in still. To lessen that upheaval when a manager moves on. Yeah I know but when you're the man managing the team week in week out you're aware of things a new man wouldn't be. It's the turtle and the hare scenario isn't it, steady progress wins the race
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Post by baconburger on Sept 27, 2023 12:17:29 GMT
All I would ask is what in your opinion is the long term vision? I see a long term vision in they type of players we’ve recruited especially the more speculative acquisitions. I’m not however of the opinion that they’re either the type of deals the manager would have wanted nor are them and him a match made in heaven ie I’m not overly confident in him getting the best out of them so is the long term vision the recruitment process or the appointment of this manager or can you see how they complement each other? Continuity and stability, I'm sure come January Neil will be more than aware of what else is needed and it will be priority, then come summer we've got a preseason and a another summer to add the missing pieces to the jigsaw. We've had a lot to do in one window. It's that old statement, Rome wasn't built in a day isn't it. I do think if he arrived at this club with the club in a good position with decent players just not quite punching their weight but a balanced team on the whole the expectation of immediate success would be more valid, it only needed tweaking I can only agree that there was too much to do in one window. Is he the right man to nurture the high potential youngsters we’ve bought in? I would never have had it down as being his bag but there again I had a pretty negative view of him before he was appointed which for whatever reason hasn’t really been the case at Stoke. I expected far more old pros very much in the Pulis mould so in that respect I’ve been pleasantly surprised by him.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 27, 2023 12:22:45 GMT
That's why more and more clubs have moved away from the manager-driven structure that we put so much faith in still. To lessen that upheaval when a manager moves on. Yeah I know but when you're the man managing the team week in week out you're aware of things a new man wouldn't be. It's the turtle and the hare scenario isn't it, steady progress wins the race You need the right man for that to work though. That's what we haven't done. It doesn't just happen with time. Even good managers have a shelf life too, the days of managerial dynasties are over. I believed, possibly still just about believe, that Neil can make steady progress but he's making me look quite the twonk for ever believing that at the moment.
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Post by OldStokie on Sept 27, 2023 12:25:29 GMT
The question was 'Is the Oatcake representative of all Stoke fans'. Of course it isn't, but you can get a feeling of how many/most? fans will be feeling by what is written on here. I come from an age where there was no discussion and all we had was reading The Sentinel on a Saturday night. That was it and what fans felt was reflected in attendances. I've been to Stoke when only about 6-8,000 fans went every week and at games when The Vic was packed to the rafters. That was how you judged how fans felt. We're now in a new era where the only way to judge how people are feeling is by how many season tickets are sold. This season we sold quite a few ST's because fans felt we were on the right path but based on results it hasn't turned out that way yet. As far as the manager is concerned, he's struggling to put together a whole new bunch of players but he's not helping himself with tactics and selection that are plainly wrong. Last week's team and tactics were bloody rediculous and he needs to learn from it. Most fans think they're managers and can can do better. They obviously aren't otherwise they'd be managing a team in the Championship but that doesn't mean that fans don't know what they're talking about. Many fans have been watching the game for decades and they have a wealth of knowledge of what works and what doesn't and who are good players and who are the poor ones.
Would I sack him now? No I wouldn't. But he is walking on thin ice and unless we stabilise this group and begin to see better results then in a couple of month's time it may be time to bring in someone who can manage better than AN.
OS.
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 12:35:46 GMT
Continuity and stability, I'm sure come January Neil will be more than aware of what else is needed and it will be priority, then come summer we've got a preseason and a another summer to add the missing pieces to the jigsaw. We've had a lot to do in one window. It's that old statement, Rome wasn't built in a day isn't it. I do think if he arrived at this club with the club in a good position with decent players just not quite punching their weight but a balanced team on the whole the expectation of immediate success would be more valid, it only needed tweaking I can only agree that there was too much to do in one window. Is he the right man to nurture the high potential youngsters we’ve bought in? I would never have had it down as being his bag but there again I had a pretty negative view of him before he was appointed which for whatever reason hasn’t really been the case at Stoke. I expected far more old pros very much in the Pulis mould so in that respect I’ve been pleasantly surprised by him. I think he must know how to play effective football and set up because he's had 3 promotions by the age of 42. Lucky once, sure. Twice, maybe. Three times? Nahh, he knows how to win games. So let him build a worthy team
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Post by baconburger on Sept 27, 2023 12:37:14 GMT
The question was 'Is the Oatcake representative of all Stoke fans'. Of course it isn't, but you can get a feeling of how many/most? fans will be feeling by what is written on here. I come from an age where there was no discussion and all we had was reading The Sentinel on a Saturday night. That was it and what fans felt was reflected in attendances. I've been to Stoke when only about 6-8,000 fans went every week and at games when The Vic was packed to the rafters. That was how you judged how fans felt. We're now in a new era where the only way to judge how people are feeling is by how many season tickets are sold. This season we sold quite a few ST's because fans felt we were on the right path but based on results it hasn't turned out that way yet. As far as the manager is concerned, he's struggling to put together a whole new bunch of players but he's not helping himself with tactics and selection that are plainly wrong. Last week's team and tactics were bloody rediculous and he needs to learn from it. Most fans think they're managers and can can do better. They obviously aren't otherwise they'd be managing a team in the Championship but that doesn't mean that fans don't know what they're talking about. Many fans have been watching the game for decades and they have a wealth of knowledge of what works and what doesn't and who are good players and who are the poor ones. Would I sack him now? No I wouldn't. But he is walking on thin ice and unless we stabilise this group and begin to see better results then in a couple of month's time it may be time to bring in someone who can manage better than AN. OS. I think there is a massive rift in what fans want to see that can not possibly be satisfied on both sides.
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 12:38:36 GMT
Yeah I know but when you're the man managing the team week in week out you're aware of things a new man wouldn't be. It's the turtle and the hare scenario isn't it, steady progress wins the race You need the right man for that to work though. That's what we haven't done. It doesn't just happen with time. Even good managers have a shelf life too, the days of managerial dynasties are over. I believed, possibly still just about believe, that Neil can make steady progress but he's making me look quite the twonk for ever believing that at the moment. You and me both. I think he is the right man given the time though. Managerial dynasties being over was brought on by a change in trend. It'll come back around, let's be the trend setters instead of being late to the party. As soon as somebody has the success by sticking again others will follow but if nobody is doing it it can't change
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Post by svengaliinplatforms on Sept 27, 2023 12:47:57 GMT
The question was 'Is the Oatcake representative of all Stoke fans'. Of course it isn't, but you can get a feeling of how many/most? fans will be feeling by what is written on here. I come from an age where there was no discussion and all we had was reading The Sentinel on a Saturday night. That was it and what fans felt was reflected in attendances. I've been to Stoke when only about 6-8,000 fans went every week and at games when The Vic was packed to the rafters. That was how you judged how fans felt. We're now in a new era where the only way to judge how people are feeling is by how many season tickets are sold. This season we sold quite a few ST's because fans felt we were on the right path but based on results it hasn't turned out that way yet. As far as the manager is concerned, he's struggling to put together a whole new bunch of players but he's not helping himself with tactics and selection that are plainly wrong. Last week's team and tactics were bloody rediculous and he needs to learn from it. Most fans think they're managers and can can do better. They obviously aren't otherwise they'd be managing a team in the Championship but that doesn't mean that fans don't know what they're talking about. Many fans have been watching the game for decades and they have a wealth of knowledge of what works and what doesn't and who are good players and who are the poor ones. Would I sack him now? No I wouldn't. But he is walking on thin ice and unless we stabilise this group and begin to see better results then in a couple of month's time it may be time to bring in someone who can manage better than AN. OS. I think there is a massive rift in what fans want to see that can not possibly be satisfied on both sides. Is there? So one side want turgid, losing dross and the other side want Man City-esque supersexy football? I think everyone just wants decent to watch, preferably winning, football myself.
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Post by dirtclod on Sept 27, 2023 13:04:20 GMT
All this losing/capitulating/gesticulating, prevaricating and mastur...(oops, sorry) hasn't helped. It's like a sick sexual psychosis - things get harder the more we flail about. (That doesn't sound good either)
There is a rift in the fanbase, just like everywhere else. (Terrorist movements often have their factions) After losses like we've seen - posting on here without being OTT can be difficult most times.
One thing is certain - at least people still care. Whether they are overly negative or blindingly positive...let's just hold onto that as long as we can. I actually enjoy the "banter" on here as well as some of the ones who get the most flack. Place wouldn't be the same without them. Just my opinion - I know, I know...proceeding to f*ck off up the Vale now.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 27, 2023 13:05:23 GMT
You need the right man for that to work though. That's what we haven't done. It doesn't just happen with time. Even good managers have a shelf life too, the days of managerial dynasties are over. I believed, possibly still just about believe, that Neil can make steady progress but he's making me look quite the twonk for ever believing that at the moment. You and me both. I think he is the right man given the time though. Managerial dynasties being over was brought on by a change in trend. It'll come back around, let's be the trend setters instead of being late to the party. As soon as somebody has the success by sticking again others will follow but if nobody is doing it it can't change I don’t think it is a trend, it’s just that the game has moved on. There’s more money involved and this more pressure, there’s also an argument that things inevitably get stale after 3-4 seasons in a lot of cases even where things go well - the methods stop working, players get tired of the same old, same old etc. I take it from the swerving of the question that you wouldn’t have given Jones 46 games? I want to keep Neil for now but he needs to give people a reason why. You can’t run a football club based on blind faith.
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Post by onepara on Sept 27, 2023 13:24:44 GMT
I think that people get fed up of watching the same stuff. I'm not drawn to watching Man. City, for example, as I'm pretty sure that they will win. I'd sooner watch a match that's got an unpredictable outcome. Like ours!
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Post by thestatusquo on Sept 27, 2023 13:27:14 GMT
I understand, I also understand the impact of loss of key targets and injuries can have, with the early injuries, wow, how's your luck?! Being honest if you were in his shoes, you wouldn't be saying it in public but you'd be thinking wtf how is this fair, give me chance, ffs. Because I know I would The loss of key targets and injuries shouldn’t affect your ability to have a half-decent team shape or defend a free kick here and there though mate? We seem to have more missed targets that the blind school at a rifle range
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 27, 2023 14:45:07 GMT
You and me both. I think he is the right man given the time though. Managerial dynasties being over was brought on by a change in trend. It'll come back around, let's be the trend setters instead of being late to the party. As soon as somebody has the success by sticking again others will follow but if nobody is doing it it can't change I don’t think it is a trend, it’s just that the game has moved on. There’s more money involved and this more pressure, there’s also an argument that things inevitably get stale after 3-4 seasons in a lot of cases even where things go well - the methods stop working, players get tired of the same old, same old etc. I take it from the swerving of the question that you wouldn’t have given Jones 46 games? I want to keep Neil for now but he needs to give people a reason why. You can’t run a football club based on blind faith. Jones. I never got the impression he was anything more than a beat your chest type anyway. I certainly wasn't Jon's half cut pal at the bar. He's got his place somewhere I'm sure but not for me It probably is a bit of wishful thinking, oh well Steve Bruce or Bayern Oatcake it is haha because it's brewing. Tonight with injuries and Bristol to think about, it's fill your boots time for the for the Neil out band wagon and enrollment
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Sept 27, 2023 14:53:21 GMT
I don’t think it is a trend, it’s just that the game has moved on. There’s more money involved and this more pressure, there’s also an argument that things inevitably get stale after 3-4 seasons in a lot of cases even where things go well - the methods stop working, players get tired of the same old, same old etc. I take it from the swerving of the question that you wouldn’t have given Jones 46 games? I want to keep Neil for now but he needs to give people a reason why. You can’t run a football club based on blind faith. Jones. I never got the impression he was anything more than a beat your chest type anyway. I certainly wasn't Jon's half cut pal at the bar. He's got his place somewhere I'm sure but not for me It probably is a bit of wishful thinking, oh well Steve Bruce or Bayern Oatcake it is haha because it's brewing. Tonight with injuries and Bristol to think about, it's fill your boots time for the for the Neil out band wagon To be honest I don't this cup seriously at all and say a 3-0 defeat would make no difference as no reflection on a team's league form or season for me. The general consensus with bigger teams seem to be, play a second string, sometimes 3rd and if we go out, so be it. The reason so many big clubs fall to smaller ones. Man City a bit of an exception and almost an easy trophy for them in a sense as a redult. If I was Neil tonight I wouldn't play a single first team player who is due to be involved at the weekend. By the same logic, a win tonight changes little apart from the fact we could face a Prem team in the next round and struggle to recognise most if their players. With so many games, something we don't need for me as the crowds reflect across the competition
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Post by questionable on Sept 27, 2023 16:16:37 GMT
I’m hearing wish I hadn’t renewed and even spoke to a number of ST holders who are already missing games.
Generally started where AN had left off and comparing to NJ time here which is where I’m at.
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Post by redliondays on Sept 27, 2023 16:21:57 GMT
Great post Retro Stoke. I can assure you this forum is not representative of most Stoke fans.
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Post by thornestein on Sept 27, 2023 16:37:40 GMT
Great post Retro Stoke. I can assure you this forum is not representative of most Stoke fans. so all them booing and leaving early on sunday are only the fans who post on here ???
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Post by redliondays on Sept 27, 2023 16:46:51 GMT
sorry Thornestein your post doesn't make any sense.
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