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Post by stokedan on Feb 21, 2023 9:03:37 GMT
Bayern, you have ignored my replies to you twice now. You are wilfully missing the point of the thread.
I’ll try one more time:
There are Stoke fans on this thread who have expressed how this kind of abusive atmosphere that you are condoning and taking part in has discouraged them from attending as it understandably makes them feel intimidated. Do you think it is acceptable that the abuse you are justifying is making fellow fans feel this way?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 9:08:17 GMT
It’s painful isn’t it. It’s akin to your dog keeping on shitting on your living room carpet and you give him a treat for it. There’s no willingness to acknowledge an issue and then try to change their behaviour. “We lost to a shit side who had one shot on target to our 20 for the 4th/5th time this season, who’s a good boy”. It’s just mad to me that anyone to me would think that’s how it should work. It reinforces that it’s ok and that they can do it again. Ultimately though we have a fanbase who won’t acknowledge the overriding issue that are the owners. And again why would they change if they don’t feel the pressure to needing to? Who is telling them that they have barely got a decision right in 7/8 years? So here we are in this loop of decline owners, managers, players and fans all feeding it by not being honest and being seemingly happy to try and get the club out of this continuous spiral by reinforcing bad practise. Do you actually believe the solution to our problems is to treat the team like a bunch of incontinent dogs and abuse them into playing better? Firstly that's an appalling way to treat anyone and secondly it won't work. Its also cowardly - the abusers know they can get away with it because footballers are in the public gaze and can't react. If any of our players actually cracked and did a Cantona they'd get my support. Treat people like shit and you get what you deserve. I don’t think it would do any harm. I don’t think they care enough for it to make a difference. The point of my post though wasn’t that you need to shout at them when they do bad but to stop encouraging them when they do badly. Which is what our fans do. They reinforce the mistakes with a positive reaction.
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Post by werrington on Feb 21, 2023 9:11:02 GMT
Do you actually believe the solution to our problems is to treat the team like a bunch of incontinent dogs and abuse them into playing better? Firstly that's an appalling way to treat anyone and secondly it won't work. Its also cowardly - the abusers know they can get away with it because footballers are in the public gaze and can't react. If any of our players actually cracked and did a Cantona they'd get my support. Treat people like shit and you get what you deserve. I don’t think it would do any harm. I don’t think they care enough for it to make a difference. The point of my post though wasn’t that you need to shout at them when they do bad but to stop encouraging them when they do badly. Which is what our fans do. They reinforce the mistakes with a positive reaction. You don’t think it does any harm to scream personal individual abuse into somebody’s face? You are seriously a worrying individual
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 9:13:21 GMT
I don’t think it would do any harm. I don’t think they care enough for it to make a difference. The point of my post though wasn’t that you need to shout at them when they do bad but to stop encouraging them when they do badly. Which is what our fans do. They reinforce the mistakes with a positive reaction. You don’t think it does any harm to scream personal individual abuse into somebody’s face? You are seriously a worrying individual I think they’ll be fine yes. People are acting like this isn’t what happens at football. It happens all the time. You’ve never screamed abuse at someone? You’ve never smacked someone? You’ve never called the ref a twat? You’ve called me all the names under the sun on here and that doesn’t seem to bother you. Which is fine, it doesn’t bother me. But it’s the same just in a different format.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 21, 2023 9:24:11 GMT
Bayern, you have ignored my replies to you twice now. You are wilfully missing the point of the thread. I’ll try one more time: T here are Stoke fans on this thread who have expressed how this kind of abusive atmosphere that you are condoning and taking part in has discouraged them from attending as it understandably makes them feel intimidated. Do you think it is acceptable that the abuse you are justifying is making fellow fans feel this way? We've never been more passive as a fanbase, the apathy is there for all to see. I don't buy that people have stopped going now all of a sudden due to abusive behaviour, the crowds were far worse in the past and that didn't stop them going. What a load of bollocks.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 9:25:41 GMT
Bayern, you have ignored my replies to you twice now. You are wilfully missing the point of the thread. I’ll try one more time: T here are Stoke fans on this thread who have expressed how this kind of abusive atmosphere that you are condoning and taking part in has discouraged them from attending as it understandably makes them feel intimidated. Do you think it is acceptable that the abuse you are justifying is making fellow fans feel this way? We've never been more passive as a fanbase, the apathy is there for all to see. I don't buy that people have stopped going now all of a sudden due to abusive behaviour, the crowds were far worse in the past and that didn't stop them going. What a load of bollocks. No nor me, thanks for typing what I couldn't be arsed to.
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Post by scfc75 on Feb 21, 2023 9:57:22 GMT
If you’ve been banging on about it for 5 or more years like you say you have, then I’d recommend you change your approach, because you’ve admitted yourself that fuck all has changed in that time. What’s the definition of insanity again? The evidence has proven me right though. The only thing that’s insane is that people still don’t listen. I’m not questioning whether you’re right or wrong. I’m stating that your repeated actions are having zero impact.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Feb 21, 2023 10:01:00 GMT
Bayern, you have ignored my replies to you twice now. You are wilfully missing the point of the thread. I’ll try one more time: There are Stoke fans on this thread who have expressed how this kind of abusive atmosphere that you are condoning and taking part in has discouraged them from attending as it understandably makes them feel intimidated. Do you think it is acceptable that the abuse you are justifying is making fellow fans feel this way? Sorry you just can’t and won’t sanitise everything to the point where the most sensitive in society don’t feel intimidated and neither should you try.
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jm
Academy Starlet
Posts: 187
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Post by jm on Feb 21, 2023 10:02:17 GMT
Abuse of anyone in any circumstances is wrong. To attribute it to a players sporting performance is unforgivable
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Feb 21, 2023 10:17:57 GMT
It’s painful isn’t it. It’s akin to your dog keeping on shitting on your living room carpet and you give him a treat for it. There’s no willingness to acknowledge an issue and then try to change their behaviour. “We lost to a shit side who had one shot on target to our 20 for the 4th/5th time this season, who’s a good boy”. It’s just mad to me that anyone to me would think that’s how it should work. It reinforces that it’s ok and that they can do it again. Ultimately though we have a fanbase who won’t acknowledge the overriding issue that are the owners. And again why would they change if they don’t feel the pressure to needing to? Who is telling them that they have barely got a decision right in 7/8 years? So here we are in this loop of decline owners, managers, players and fans all feeding it by not being honest and being seemingly happy to try and get the club out of this continuous spiral by reinforcing bad practise. Do you actually believe the solution to our problems is to treat the team like a bunch of incontinent dogs and abuse them into playing better? Firstly that's an appalling way to treat anyone and secondly it won't work. Its also cowardly - the abusers know they can get away with it because footballers are in the public gaze and can't react. If any of our players actually cracked and did a Cantona they'd get my support. Treat people like shit and you get what you deserve. Just to make a point it wouldn't work with the dogs either, very few people know how to use negative reinforcement properly let alone punishment. They both work if you understand them and know when to apply them or in the case of negative reinforcement when to release the negative stimulus. That’s why almost everything you read in terms of training in this day and age focuses on positive reinforcement. What Bayern is talking about is far from scientific and just irrational human reaction. That’s why you get pragmatism not because it delivers the best outcomes but because humans don’t cope that well with disappointment some even less so than others note the irrational reactions to Saturday’s outcome and performance.
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Post by Scouse on Feb 21, 2023 11:33:56 GMT
Another two penneth worth
Few , including the op appear to be saying you can’t show disapproval ..just that some on Saturday took it to the extreme .. and made it in your face personal ..well beyond booing and a turn for the exit with the customary two fingered salut
actually the extreme is a physical assault , but sensible and careful management by the police and the stewards at the front prevented things from escalating
The specific mitigation at Blackpool is everyone exits from the front of the stand , exiting is very , very slow .. resulting in bottlenecks and a build up of fans at the front ..when several players came over , firstly to present shirts , they received both barrels ..including at least one fan leaving the stand to ‘converse’ ..that’s why I say sensible management .. I believe he was ushered back ..though the bottleneck and people stopping to hurl abuse prevented some who didn’t want to be involved from being able to exit
Football is an emotive game , and at times tempers boil , it happens , but that doesn’t make it right nor immune from being called out ..
As I said earlier no great surprises re the general downturn behaviour and the specific behaviour of others , like Sheff U a lads full turnout .. whilst it’s a no holds party day for some , for others they’re days to endure or sadly give a miss .. simply because of the behaviour of others ..some people might say tough . But genuinely is that right , what if you had no interest in football or Stoke and so not there ..but your wife or kids did .. and felt uncomfortable or threatened ( real or perceived ) don’t answer don’t go .. that’s not the answer
Home game , partially at Stoke choosing a seat and therefore to a degree an ability to control your environment is relatively easy , away from home on full turnouts less so ..invariably some of the more boisterous will find themselves in seats either away from their mates , or else down the front ( always a poor view ) so stand in aisles and or 2 to 1 seat space .. with little if any regard to anyone inconvenienced .. some will be told to move , some will be tolerated and for some fans this can make for an uncomfortable afternoon..
General unlike the shit or Liverpool who use doubling up to mask jibbing in , on the whole the majority of Stoke aways people sit in designated seats , or find empty better ones in none sell outs .. come the lads day out and things change ..that’s uncomfortable for some
Finally , the idea that fan behaviour doesn’t and never has impacted on attendances as a whole or individually or the demographic of our followings is frankly ludicrous ..what one person thinks is fine , isn’t how others think or react .. and that really is the crux of the matter
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 21, 2023 11:41:40 GMT
Bayern, you have ignored my replies to you twice now. You are wilfully missing the point of the thread. I’ll try one more time: T here are Stoke fans on this thread who have expressed how this kind of abusive atmosphere that you are condoning and taking part in has discouraged them from attending as it understandably makes them feel intimidated. Do you think it is acceptable that the abuse you are justifying is making fellow fans feel this way? We've never been more passive as a fanbase, the apathy is there for all to see. I don't buy that people have stopped going now all of a sudden due to abusive behaviour, the crowds were far worse in the past and that didn't stop them going. What a load of bollocks. I haven't stopped going to home matches where I know who I will be sitting amongst. My point was about away matches. Last time I went in amongst Stoke fans at an away match was the famous victory at Man City with my son who was at Manchester University at the time. I was asked when I bought the tickets whether I wanted to sit during the match because if I did I needed seats at the front or I wouldn't be able to. I duly sat about five rows back and despite the poor view enjoyed what was going on on the pitch despite the constant shower of plastic cups, beer saliva bad language etc from behind. Once we scored though (and from my position I did get a brilliant photo of Diouff celebrating) everyone from behind just rushed across seats to get to the front. One bloke (and how he managed to get up I'll never know) flew through the air from several rows back landing at my feet between the rows of seats knocking me sideways. I thought later how lucky I was that he had landed to the side of me rather than on me and that my son had been on my left to stop me being knocked over. Sorry if after that experience I decided not to go to away matches amongst Stoke fans. The match was a great experience, the fans were good natured, the bloke apologised to me profusely but there were too many inconsiderate drunken louts and that was after a good performance and win. I am not apathetic just a bit of a wimp when it comes to my personal welfare.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 21, 2023 12:00:44 GMT
Do you actually believe the solution to our problems is to treat the team like a bunch of incontinent dogs and abuse them into playing better? Firstly that's an appalling way to treat anyone and secondly it won't work. Its also cowardly - the abusers know they can get away with it because footballers are in the public gaze and can't react. If any of our players actually cracked and did a Cantona they'd get my support. Treat people like shit and you get what you deserve. I don’t think it would do any harm. I don’t think they care enough for it to make a difference. The point of my post though wasn’t that you need to shout at them when they do bad but to stop encouraging them when they do badly. Which is what our fans do. They reinforce the mistakes with a positive reaction. You don't think it will do any harm? If you actually believe that you have serious issues. People get damaged by abuse - to expect footballers to not only put up with it but accept it as a legitimate method of improving their performance is just awful and from a performance psychology point of view completely ridiculous. People (and animals) subject to abuse can be made to obey and do tricks providing that remain captive. That's as far as it goes. It's also sick and illegal.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 12:03:33 GMT
I don’t think it would do any harm. I don’t think they care enough for it to make a difference. The point of my post though wasn’t that you need to shout at them when they do bad but to stop encouraging them when they do badly. Which is what our fans do. They reinforce the mistakes with a positive reaction. You don't think it will do any harm? If you actually believe that you have serious issues. People get damaged by abuse - to expect footballers to not only put up with it but accept it as a legitimate method of improving their performance is just awful and from a performance psychology point of view completely ridiculous. People (and animals) subject to abuse can be made to obey and do tricks providing that remain captive. That's as far as it goes. It's also sick and illegal. You’ve missed the point completely. The point is the fans are reinforcing bad habits by clapping them off when we lose. You don’t give a dog who has shat on the carpet a treat. That’s what we do with being nice to them. It doesn’t mean you have to be vile to them.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 21, 2023 12:10:31 GMT
You don't think it will do any harm? If you actually believe that you have serious issues. People get damaged by abuse - to expect footballers to not only put up with it but accept it as a legitimate method of improving their performance is just awful and from a performance psychology point of view completely ridiculous. People (and animals) subject to abuse can be made to obey and do tricks providing that remain captive. That's as far as it goes. It's also sick and illegal. You’ve missed the point completely. The point is the fans are reinforcing bad habits by clapping them off when we lose. You don’t give a dog who has shat on the carpet a treat. That’s what we do with being nice to them. It doesn’t mean you have to be vile to them. In post after post you have been advocating abuse as a means of motivating the players. I haven't missed the point - you are changing your tune because someone has pointed out the consequences of what you've been saying and you can't stand being shown up as being wrong about something.
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Post by Pugsley on Feb 21, 2023 12:19:17 GMT
Seriously …have you totally missed the whole jist of lords thread? You are doing what you always do thread after fucking thread and bang bang bang the same fucking drum about the same thing over and over again when it’s not even what the point of the thread is …..it’s not about the owners, it’s not about the performances but you just can’t grasp it can you? You are just stinking this whole place out now Exhibit A. I have mentioned the performances. Half of the quoted post does 😂 And yes it needs banging on about because absolutely nothing is changing and people need to wake the fuck up. You've changed the narrative of the thread after realising that you've condoned people acting like vermin.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 13:11:42 GMT
You’ve missed the point completely. The point is the fans are reinforcing bad habits by clapping them off when we lose. You don’t give a dog who has shat on the carpet a treat. That’s what we do with being nice to them. It doesn’t mean you have to be vile to them. In post after post you have been advocating abuse as a means of motivating the players. I haven't missed the point - you are changing your tune because someone has pointed out the consequences of what you've been saying and you can't stand being shown up as being wrong about something. I haven’t said it would motivate them. Indeed I’ve said the opposite.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 13:12:12 GMT
Exhibit A. I have mentioned the performances. Half of the quoted post does 😂 And yes it needs banging on about because absolutely nothing is changing and people need to wake the fuck up. You've changed the narrative of the thread after realising that you've condoned people acting like vermin. I don’t think people have acted like vermin so why would I have done that?
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 21, 2023 13:59:04 GMT
We've never been more passive as a fanbase, the apathy is there for all to see. I don't buy that people have stopped going now all of a sudden due to abusive behaviour, the crowds were far worse in the past and that didn't stop them going. What a load of bollocks. I haven't stopped going to home matches where I know who I will be sitting amongst. My point was about away matches. Last time I went in amongst Stoke fans at an away match was the famous victory at Man City with my son who was at Manchester University at the time. I was asked when I bought the tickets whether I wanted to sit during the match because if I did I needed seats at the front or I wouldn't be able to. I duly sat about five rows back and despite the poor view enjoyed what was going on on the pitch despite the constant shower of plastic cups, beer saliva bad language etc from behind. Once we scored though (and from my position I did get a brilliant photo of Diouff celebrating) everyone from behind just rushed across seats to get to the front. One bloke (and how he managed to get up I'll never know) flew through the air from several rows back landing at my feet between the rows of seats knocking me sideways. I thought later how lucky I was that he had landed to the side of me rather than on me and that my son had been on my left to stop me being knocked over. Sorry if after that experience I decided not to go to away matches amongst Stoke fans. The match was a great experience, the fans were good natured, the bloke apologised to me profusely but there were too many inconsiderate drunken louts and that was after a good performance and win. I am not apathetic just a bit of a wimp when it comes to my personal welfare. Well you've been incredibly unlucky because I've been to probably 50+ away games since that day and never encountered what you've described.
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Post by thevoid on Feb 21, 2023 14:35:31 GMT
Too many people wooed by free coach trips to...well, probably Exeter next season. I'd rather pay and have a better run club. The only shock is that people are shocked. This is just a return to type under The Family Do you go to away games? That's easy to say if you don't. Personally I'd rather walk than use the official coaches but that's just my personal viewpoint they must be a Godsend for many families in particular........... I do but I don't use the official coaches. Understand they may be a Godsend to some but from a selfish POV it doesn't really balance out the last seven years of rank bad ownership.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 21, 2023 17:31:24 GMT
In post after post you have been advocating abuse as a means of motivating the players. I haven't missed the point - you are changing your tune because someone has pointed out the consequences of what you've been saying and you can't stand being shown up as being wrong about something. I haven’t said it would motivate them. Indeed I’ve said the opposite. Your last post said that clapping/supporting the team just makes them worse - which is the opposite of abusing the team to make them perform better. Thing is they are the two sides of the same behaviourist coin and you have made several posts condoning abusive behaviour as a mean of motivating the team. This is a classic Bayern swivel - get your opinions exposed as utter drivel (and in this case dangerous drivel) and swear blind you never said what you actually said. Just reread what you actually said and for once admit you got it wrong.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Feb 21, 2023 17:42:03 GMT
Another two penneth worth Few , including the op appear to be saying you can’t show disapproval ..just that some on Saturday took it to the extreme .. and made it in your face personal ..well beyond booing and a turn for the exit with the customary two fingered salut actually the extreme is a physical assault , but sensible and careful management by the police and the stewards at the front prevented things from escalating The specific mitigation at Blackpool is everyone exits from the front of the stand , exiting is very , very slow .. resulting in bottlenecks and a build up of fans at the front ..when several players came over , firstly to present shirts , they received both barrels ..including at least one fan leaving the stand to ‘converse’ ..that’s why I say sensible management .. I believe he was ushered back ..though the bottleneck and people stopping to hurl abuse prevented some who didn’t want to be involved from being able to exit Football is an emotive game , and at times tempers boil , it happens , but that doesn’t make it right nor immune from being called out .. As I said earlier no great surprises re the general downturn behaviour and the specific behaviour of others , like Sheff U a lads full turnout .. whilst it’s a no holds party day for some , for others they’re days to endure or sadly give a miss .. simply because of the behaviour of others ..some people might say tough . But genuinely is that right , what if you had no interest in football or Stoke and so not there ..but your wife or kids did .. and felt uncomfortable or threatened ( real or perceived ) don’t answer don’t go .. that’s not the answer Home game , partially at Stoke choosing a seat and therefore to a degree an ability to control your environment is relatively easy , away from home on full turnouts less so ..invariably some of the more boisterous will find themselves in seats either away from their mates , or else down the front ( always a poor view ) so stand in aisles and or 2 to 1 seat space .. with little if any regard to anyone inconvenienced .. some will be told to move , some will be tolerated and for some fans this can make for an uncomfortable afternoon.. General unlike the shit or Liverpool who use doubling up to mask jibbing in , on the whole the majority of Stoke aways people sit in designated seats , or find empty better ones in none sell outs .. come the lads day out and things change ..that’s uncomfortable for some Finally , the idea that fan behaviour doesn’t and never has impacted on attendances as a whole or individually or the demographic of our followings is frankly ludicrous ..what one person thinks is fine , isn’t how others think or react .. and that really is the crux of the matter You’re right football is an emotive game and I’ve very little understanding of peoples emotional behaviour. Perhaps I’d be better off to stop trying.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 17:44:56 GMT
I haven’t said it would motivate them. Indeed I’ve said the opposite. Your last post said that clapping/supporting the team just makes them worse - which is the opposite of abusing the team to make them perform better. Thing is they are the two sides of the same behaviourist coin and you have made several posts condoning abusive behaviour as a mean of motivating the team. This is a classic Bayern swivel - get your opinions exposed as utter drivel (and in this case dangerous drivel) and swear blind you never said what you actually said. Just reread what you actually said and for once admit you got it wrong. Yes it does. You don’t think positive reinforcement of bad things doesn’t make them think it’s ok to be bad? It’s exactly what is happening. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. But clapping them when they do bad things is far worse than giving them abuse. And is it? I think they deserved what they got and still do. There’s been no swivelling.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Feb 21, 2023 17:53:23 GMT
I haven’t said it would motivate them. Indeed I’ve said the opposite. Your last post said that clapping/supporting the team just makes them worse - which is the opposite of abusing the team to make them perform better. Thing is they are the two sides of the same behaviourist coin and you have made several posts condoning abusive behaviour as a mean of motivating the team. This is a classic Bayern swivel - get your opinions exposed as utter drivel (and in this case dangerous drivel) and swear blind you never said what you actually said. Just reread what you actually said and for once admit you got it wrong. Neither approach produces the best outcomes. Positive or negative reinforcement, all carrot or all stick. Knowledge and trust produce the best outcomes. Mostly positive reinforcement and targeted reward produce acceptable outcomes. Some negative reinforcement and well timed punishment or correction even compulsion can sharpen your outcomes if you understand what you’re doing and time it correctly. Trouble is what you’re arguing about is emotional bullshit from either perspective. It’s both irrational and illogical.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Feb 21, 2023 18:01:25 GMT
Your last post said that clapping/supporting the team just makes them worse - which is the opposite of abusing the team to make them perform better. Thing is they are the two sides of the same behaviourist coin and you have made several posts condoning abusive behaviour as a mean of motivating the team. This is a classic Bayern swivel - get your opinions exposed as utter drivel (and in this case dangerous drivel) and swear blind you never said what you actually said. Just reread what you actually said and for once admit you got it wrong. Yes it does. You don’t think positive reinforcement of bad things doesn’t make them think it’s ok to be bad? It’s exactly what is happening. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. But clapping them when they do bad things is far worse than giving them abuse. And is it? I think they deserved what they got and still do. There’s been no swivelling. How can a team that dominate every fucking metric yet come out on the end of an unfavourable outcome deserve abuse. Not that anybody or anything deserves to be abused. I can’t think of a single logical explanation for the abuse that allegedly occurred after the Blackpool game apart from peoples inability to deal with disappointment.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 18:10:02 GMT
Yes it does. You don’t think positive reinforcement of bad things doesn’t make them think it’s ok to be bad? It’s exactly what is happening. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. But clapping them when they do bad things is far worse than giving them abuse. And is it? I think they deserved what they got and still do. There’s been no swivelling. How can a team that dominate every fucking metric yet come out on the end of an unfavourable outcome deserve abuse. Not that anybody or anything deserves to be abused. I can’t think of a single logical explanation for the abuse that allegedly occurred after the Blackpool game apart from peoples inability to deal with disappointment. Because we’ve done it way too many times before and it’s part of a pattern? 6 years of shite. A season of shite. Let’s be honest it’s been a long time coming.
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Post by walrus on Feb 21, 2023 23:15:45 GMT
What a difference a few days makes! Brilliant atmosphere in the away end at the end there.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 21, 2023 23:17:51 GMT
What a difference a few days makes! Brilliant atmosphere in the away end at the end there. The bollocking they got on Saturday worked a treat
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Post by banksy1art on Feb 21, 2023 23:19:37 GMT
Proud and happy
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Post by owdestokie2 on Feb 21, 2023 23:25:13 GMT
How about burying this diversive thread.
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