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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 21:16:20 GMT
Firstly, this is not designed to be a bring back Pulis argument. That's a different debate all together.
Love him or hate him however, even though like all managers he made some transfer errors he managed to get decent players in even when we hadn't got a pot to piss in.
I look at our forward line now and they are useless. And I look at our transfer budget and I can't think how we can fix it. But TP brought in Noel-Williams and Akinbiyi both as free transfers and made them a partnership to be reckoned with. He didn't say "we're fucked" he said who can I sign for for free that will fit my tactics. Neither of them were world beaters but I always felt we were in with a chance of winning with them as a forward line.
Higginbotham 225k (an elite CB at this level) clint Hill (free?), Griffin 300k, taggart etc etc etc. Yet our recent managers and transfer team have made so many errors in this department.
The main goals that promoted us were fuller, Lawrence and Cresswell. Fuller cost 500k, Lawrence and Cresswell what do we reckon about the same? Yet don't get me started on what we spunked on Afobe, Ince, vokes, Brown and then all the loans as well.
How did he do it so often? Yes players were cheaper then but a lot of his signings were bargains even back then. And his loans were more impactive. Hendrie, Berger, Diao, Crossley, Nash, Shawcross initially etc etc.
Is it down to managers picking their own players back then rather than scouts and DOF picking the players for them? Was he just a better manager than anyone we have had since we came back down? Why can't our recent managers have a similar success rate?
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Post by maninasuitcase on Jan 18, 2023 21:20:34 GMT
Yesterdays £500k is today's £5m
Those players were unloved, out of sort misfits, who came to us and were honed into a killing machine by a managerial psychopath. And we loved them all.
But that love is like haleys comet, it comes once in a lifetime. And we have a long wait.
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Post by hoppo96 on Jan 18, 2023 21:23:19 GMT
Brown does not belong in that list. He was our top scorer, well into double figures and for a fraction of what we paid for the other three.
Perhaps it was a case of being a good manager but it looks better because we sign basically nobody that good anymore. Our miss rate is probably the worst in the entire football league, or close too. Pulis signed some duds but you won't remember them because of the names mentioned.
Another thing to consider is it's a very different Stoke City then compared to now. Back then, we were underdogs, we had little money, we hadn't been in the top flight for two decades, we were getting 12k crowds or so. Pulis had never managed a game in the top flight.
Now we have experience of top flight, made an fa cup final, a league cup semi final, a europa league campaign. We have a bigger ground, bigger crowds and everyone is aware we have rich billionaire owners, regardless of ffp. We're no longer little old Stoke, we're the Stoke players and rival fans remember having Arnautovic, Bojan, Shaqiri and beating the best teams in the country?
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Post by ursemboys on Jan 18, 2023 21:23:37 GMT
He didnt have FFP to deal with and the board backed him where they could, not a pulls lover but credit where its due he did what he was employed to do, he did waste shit loads later on with some crap signings.
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Post by somersetstokie on Jan 18, 2023 21:24:37 GMT
Quite so. There was only one Tony Pulis.
I think what we miss now so much, that he used to give us, was the ability to seemingly pull rabbits out of hats in bringing players in, such as Hendrie and Daio.
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Post by liathroid on Jan 18, 2023 21:34:45 GMT
Tonge , Soares
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 18, 2023 21:38:27 GMT
At his best, he generally knew exactly the kind of players who fit how he wanted to play. He’d also got a canny knack for finding treasure in other clubs’ trash - players once tipped for big things who’d lost their way, who were given another chance and repaid them with the best form of their careers.
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 21:40:23 GMT
Brown does not belong in that list. He was our top scorer, well into double figures and for a fraction of what we paid for the other three. Perhaps it was a case of being a good manager but it looks better because we sign basically nobody that good anymore. Our miss rate is probably the worst in the entire football league, or close too. Pulis signed some duds but you won't remember them because of the names mentioned. Another thing to consider is it's a very different Stoke City then compared to now. Back then, we were underdogs, we had little money, we hadn't been in the top flight for two decades, we were getting 12k crowds or so. Pulis had never managed a game in the top flight. Now we have experience of top flight, made an fa cup final, a league cup semi final, a europa league campaign. We have a bigger ground, bigger crowds and everyone is aware we have rich billionaire owners, regardless of ffp. We're no longer little old Stoke, we're the Stoke players and rival fans remember having Arnautovic, Bojan, Shaqiri and beating the best teams in the country? Brown is nowhere near as much of a let down as others listed I agree. I actually defend him a lot. But ultimately he's nowhere near promotion standard
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 21:42:00 GMT
He didnt have FFP to deal with and the board backed him where they could, not a pulls lover but credit where its due he did what he was employed to do, he did waste shit loads later on with some crap signings. He didn't have ffp but he didn't have a pot to piss in either. Especially first time around.
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 21:44:41 GMT
There is a long list of bad ones granted. We currently have a 5 year list of bad ones though, my question is how he signed so many good ones at this level when we were shit and had no money.
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Post by somersetstokie on Jan 18, 2023 21:47:58 GMT
For every Flint that we have now, there was then a player like Cort or Duberry. TP consistently made strong decisions.
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Post by PotterLog on Jan 18, 2023 21:50:07 GMT
Firstly, this is not designed to be a bring back Pulis argument. That's a different debate all together. Love him or hate him however, even though like all managers he made some transfer errors he managed to get decent players in even when we hadn't got a pot to piss in. I look at our forward line now and they are useless. And I look at our transfer budget and I can't think how we can fix it. But TP brought in Noel-Williams and Akinbiyi both as free transfers and made them a partnership to be reckoned with. He didn't say "we're fucked" he said who can I sign for for free that will fit my tactics. Neither of them were world beaters but I always felt we were in with a chance of winning with them as a forward line. Higginbotham 225k (an elite CB at this level) clint Hill (free?), Griffin 300k, taggart etc etc etc. Yet our recent managers and transfer team have made so many errors in this department. The main goals that promoted us were fuller, Lawrence and Cresswell. Fuller cost 500k, Lawrence and Cresswell what do we reckon about the same? Yet don't get me started on what we spunked on Afobe, Ince, vokes, Brown and then all the loans as well. How did he do it so often? Yes players were cheaper then but a lot of his signings were bargains even back then. And his loans were more impactive. Hendrie, Berger, Diao, Crossley, Nash, Shawcross initially etc etc. Is it down to managers picking their own players back then rather than scouts and DOF picking the players for them? Was he just a better manager than anyone we have had since we came back down? Why can't our recent managers have a similar success rate? He signed truckloads of dross too
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 21:53:18 GMT
Firstly, this is not designed to be a bring back Pulis argument. That's a different debate all together. Love him or hate him however, even though like all managers he made some transfer errors he managed to get decent players in even when we hadn't got a pot to piss in. I look at our forward line now and they are useless. And I look at our transfer budget and I can't think how we can fix it. But TP brought in Noel-Williams and Akinbiyi both as free transfers and made them a partnership to be reckoned with. He didn't say "we're fucked" he said who can I sign for for free that will fit my tactics. Neither of them were world beaters but I always felt we were in with a chance of winning with them as a forward line. Higginbotham 225k (an elite CB at this level) clint Hill (free?), Griffin 300k, taggart etc etc etc. Yet our recent managers and transfer team have made so many errors in this department. The main goals that promoted us were fuller, Lawrence and Cresswell. Fuller cost 500k, Lawrence and Cresswell what do we reckon about the same? Yet don't get me started on what we spunked on Afobe, Ince, vokes, Brown and then all the loans as well. How did he do it so often? Yes players were cheaper then but a lot of his signings were bargains even back then. And his loans were more impactive. Hendrie, Berger, Diao, Crossley, Nash, Shawcross initially etc etc. Is it down to managers picking their own players back then rather than scouts and DOF picking the players for them? Was he just a better manager than anyone we have had since we came back down? Why can't our recent managers have a similar success rate? He signed truckloads of dross too Already stated that mate. All managers do. But how did he get so many right in the championship with no money when we were shit?
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Post by march4 on Jan 18, 2023 21:56:12 GMT
Prem signings not Championship.
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Post by nonameface on Jan 18, 2023 21:58:43 GMT
zero expectation, we were grateful for just being in the division after our Icelandic period (although the football could be more entertaining then).
We had limited funds at the start and so the only way of achieving success was by building it, not buying it.
it was in the past though, let's look forwards and see what can be done rather than what has been.
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 22:00:56 GMT
Prem signings not Championship. Correct - and even though they didn't make it, we needed them as squad fillers at the time.
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Post by PotterLog on Jan 18, 2023 22:01:05 GMT
He signed truckloads of dross too Already stated that mate. All managers do. But how did he get so many right in the championship with no money when we were shit? Good nose for "DNA", notoriously. Strong vision for what he wanted, which was extremely rigid and disciplined. Perhaps it's a bit easier to sniff out players where attitude/application and willingness to fit into a rigid system is more important than individual technique and ability?
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 22:02:57 GMT
zero expectation, we were grateful for just being in the division after our Icelandic period (although the football could be more entertaining then). We had limited funds at the start and so the only way of achieving success was by building it, not buying it. it was in the past though, let's look forwards and see what can be done rather than what has been. To me the future is to aim for promotion. To get there we need to replicate previous successful transfer tactics with limited funds
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 18, 2023 22:05:59 GMT
Macari did a similar job for us, similar manager, his way or the highway.
They didn't always get them right of course but they tapped into what I would say was Stoke's identity during their best times.
We are currently back to the days of mills or ball or Jordan dull as dishwater with the odd good performance thrown in.
I don't know if you could find a Mark Crossley now, but good scouting is important and you need character as much as a nice set of stats to cut it in ST4.
These two managers liked mentally tough players where they could find them and it is what we need now .
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Post by gogogadget on Jan 18, 2023 22:18:39 GMT
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Post by liathroid on Jan 18, 2023 22:27:31 GMT
squad filler ffs
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Post by potterpaul on Jan 18, 2023 22:32:22 GMT
I think a lot underestimate the discovery (by all accounts a complete accident) of the Delap throw. It completely changed the dynamics of our game plan. If truth be known every manager around would have done the same and recruited accordingly.
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Post by callas12 on Jan 18, 2023 22:35:12 GMT
For every player that didn't make it under TP's reign there were easily 5 or 6 that did. Even Alex Ferguson signed the odd dud during his lengthy & successful Manchester Utd spell.
Fuller, Shawcross, Begovic, Lawrence, Adam, N-Zonzi, Etherington, Pennant, Crouch, Whelen, Shawcross, Higginbotham, Delap, Eustace, Sorrensen, Abdoulaye Faye, Beattie, Sidibe, Huth, Tuncay, Walters, Akinbyi, GNW, Crossley, Butland Taggart... the list goes on.
Some list that is of players who in their prime of playing for Stoke would walk straight into our team right now, each & every one of them no hesitation.
They had the Stoke/Pulis DNA that he created from scratch, from a squad that were all but down until the final day victory v Reading..
For each Pericard, Williams, Davies, Sonko he signed we had the list above calibre signing for us, I'll cut him the slack for the signings he made that didn't work out. Players like Michael Tonge, Carl Cort and Tom Soares are often mentioned amongst Pulis's poor signing list. Tom Soares was a very highly rated winger as he rose up through the youth ranks at Palace, & I was quite excited about us signing him. Not sure what went wrong with his career trajectory, on a smaller scale he's done a Deli Ali, perhaps peaked to soon or something. I actually thought Cort was quite a good signing for us at the Time, he had a great game in our first visit to Anfield when we drew 0-0 with them. & Tonge was an average squad player who was signed late in that particular transfer window to add abit more strength in depth to our numbers. Even for the less impactive signings TP made, none were costly mistakes that hung around for years picking up a wage, all were shipped out when TP had dispensed with their services. Even Perricard found a new home!
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 22:42:21 GMT
Lol arismendi was defo a bad signing and not a squad filler.
However, he was signed when we were in the prem. As stated a few times we can take every manager we've ever had and list bad ones. I'm wanting to know why/how he got it so consistently right at this level with little to no budget. Because we have tried numerous managers and numerous approaches and haven't even got a 10% success rate of good signings.
I personally want to get promoted again one day, and to get there we've got to make multiple good signings in a row. Since the new stadium in 97 two managers have signed players that have managed a promotion and only one at this level. At the end of the day we need to copy the recipe of success.
Not copy TP's style necessarily. But is it a case of getting a pig headed manager with his style set in stone and letting him pick all his own players? Is it more than just that because another glaring question is why did all of these top level champ players want to come here? Because we were far less fashionable then than we are now and our wages were less competitive so how did we manage it?
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Post by chigstoke on Jan 18, 2023 22:43:20 GMT
His best signing by far was Maurice Edu. We paid for him to play 10 minutes against Liverpool. Never saw him again
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Post by lordb on Jan 18, 2023 22:45:14 GMT
He didnt have FFP to deal with and the board backed him where they could, not a pulls lover but credit where its due he did what he was employed to do, he did waste shit loads later on with some crap signings. Indeed With FFP we wouldn't have signed those players
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 22:45:46 GMT
I think a lot underestimate the discovery (by all accounts a complete accident) of the Delap throw. It completely changed the dynamics of our game plan. If truth be known every manager around would have done the same and recruited accordingly. Coincidental as that discovery might of been. He was regarded as a top professional at the time with prem experience and we managed to sign him. In my original list I couldn't recall his cost but was he not another example of a superb signing for next to nothing? Anyone remember what we paid for him?
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Post by st3mark on Jan 18, 2023 22:50:54 GMT
He didnt have FFP to deal with and the board backed him where they could, not a pulls lover but credit where its due he did what he was employed to do, he did waste shit loads later on with some crap signings. Indeed With FFP we wouldn't have signed those players Going back to his first spell he had a relegation budget regardless of what rules were in place. Hence the freebie forward line of noel Williams and Ade. Second spell he had more budget but nowhere near equivalent to what we've spent since relegation even accounting for todays inflated prices.
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Post by lordb on Jan 18, 2023 22:57:37 GMT
Indeed With FFP we wouldn't have signed those players Going back to his first spell he had a relegation budget regardless of what rules were in place. Hence the freebie forward line of noel Williams and Ade. Second spell he had more budget but nowhere near equivalent to what we've spent since relegation even accounting for todays inflated prices. Even that season we stayed up we signed some relatively expensive loans With FFP could we have done that?
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Post by Gods on Jan 18, 2023 23:02:07 GMT
Goodness knows how he did it but did it he did. It had been a quarter of a century and 12 managers since we were last in the top flight before the great man rode in to town.
He gave us back our pride and our top flight status and kept us there for 5 years without any hint of a relegation.
For good measure he threw in our only ever victories in Europe and the only FA Cup Final in the history of the football club.
He scaled Kilimanjaro for the Donna Louise trust and rushed back to Stoke to oversee a victory in a night match on the day of the death of his own mother.
At some point after his passing a statue will be erected in his name.
For now he is was and remains a living legend.
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