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Post by st3mark on Jan 19, 2023 9:57:33 GMT
What we need right now more than anything is to sign players with the Pulis/Stoke DNA, leaders, fighters, desire, commitment, a desperation not to lose. Everything basically the current crop of players do not posses. I enjoyed the Under 18's video from last week where although not their best performance they found a way to win with grit, determination and togetherness. You can have all the technical ability in the world but if you don't have those attributes you win nothing. 100% Like I said this isn't designed to be a bring back Pulis thread. But would it be so bad if he had a role with an input on signings. Could he be the defensive scout or the bloke we use to identify a target man
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 19, 2023 10:00:47 GMT
Lol arismendi was defo a bad signing and not a squad filler. However, he was signed when we were in the prem. As stated a few times we can take every manager we've ever had and list bad ones. I'm wanting to know why/how he got it so consistently right at this level with little to no budget. Because we have tried numerous managers and numerous approaches and haven't even got a 10% success rate of good signings. I personally want to get promoted again one day, and to get there we've got to make multiple good signings in a row. Since the new stadium in 97 two managers have signed players that have managed a promotion and only one at this level. At the end of the day we need to copy the recipe of success. Not copy TP's style necessarily. But is it a case of getting a pig headed manager with his style set in stone and letting him pick all his own players? Is it more than just that because another glaring question is why did all of these top level champ players want to come here? Because we were far less fashionable then than we are now and our wages were less competitive so how did we manage it? We let the managers pick their own players now. Are you saying TP didn't?
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Post by Davef on Jan 19, 2023 10:04:46 GMT
He brought in 36 players first time around. Over 3 years, a lot of them free transfers... Most of them successful If he didn't have a pot to piss in, how come Boskamp spent over £2M during his season here?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 19, 2023 10:04:58 GMT
We let the managers pick their own players now. Are you saying TP didn't? No, I was responding to a post that implied we did it then and don't do it now.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 19, 2023 10:06:25 GMT
What we need right now more than anything is to sign players with the Pulis/Stoke DNA, leaders, fighters, desire, commitment, a desperation not to lose. Everything basically the current crop of players do not posses. I enjoyed the Under 18's video from last week where although not their best performance they found a way to win with grit, determination and togetherness. You can have all the technical ability in the world but if you don't have those attributes you win nothing. 100% Like I said this isn't designed to be a bring back Pulis thread. But would it be so bad if he had a role with an input on signings. Could he be the defensive scout or the bloke we use to identify a target man So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders...
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Post by a on Jan 19, 2023 10:09:36 GMT
He had a game plan and bought players to fit that plan. He worked hard to identify those players and demanded they graft (Fuller excepted!). He trained them well and had innovative ideas on movement/blocking at set-pieces. He encouraged an ‘us and them’ mentality with players and fans. You’ve just described a successful leader. 20s onwards 😂
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Post by Gods on Jan 19, 2023 10:17:03 GMT
Goodness knows how he did it but did it he did. It had been a quarter of a century and 12 managers since we were last in the top flight before the great man rode in to town. He gave us back our pride and our top flight status and kept us there for 5 years without any hint of a relegation. For good measure he threw in our only ever victories in Europe and the only FA Cup Final in the history of the football club. He scaled Kilimanjaro for the Donna Louise trust and rushed back to Stoke to oversee a victory in a night match on the day of the death of his own mother. At some point after his passing a statue will be erected in his name. For now he is was and remains a living legend. Excellent post but I do remember us beating Kaiserslautern 3-1 under Waddo in 1972, admittedly this was only the first leg of a two legged tie that we eventually lost but a win is a win. We did indeed! And somehow contrived to lose the 2nd leg 4-0! The 2 legs against Ajax in 74 were more impressive. A 0-0 draw away and a 1-1 draw at home and so a defeat on 'away goals' ! Cruyff had just left Ajax by then but they still weren't too shabby, had Krol and Haan and Rep and one or two others!
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jan 19, 2023 10:21:41 GMT
100% Like I said this isn't designed to be a bring back Pulis thread. But would it be so bad if he had a role with an input on signings. Could he be the defensive scout or the bloke we use to identify a target man So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders... It also ignores the character of the man he doesn’t do collaboration he’s a control freak. Don’t know why there’s all this misty eyed nostalgia over him his tenures were mostly awful. The couple of times he produced anything decent he tore it apart.
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Post by Fenparkpotter on Jan 19, 2023 10:22:30 GMT
It's worth remembering that TP worked directly with John Rudge, a 100% football man with a wealth of managerial experience and a long track record of impressive signings at both Vale and Stoke
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 19, 2023 10:23:09 GMT
I think a lot underestimate the discovery (by all accounts a complete accident) of the Delap throw. It completely changed the dynamics of our game plan. If truth be known every manager around would have done the same and recruited accordingly. Coincidental as that discovery might of been. He was regarded as a top professional at the time with prem experience and we managed to sign him. In my original list I couldn't recall his cost but was he not another example of a superb signing for next to nothing? Anyone remember what we paid for him? We also honoured the permanent signing of Delap after the injury that kept him out for ages. That kind of loyalty, along with work to help players like Etherington and his gambling addiction, gave the club a great reputation in the game. In many ways, Pulis and the club went above and beyond what was expected. That kind of support makes employees want to do well for their manager/employer.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 19, 2023 10:23:20 GMT
It's worth remembering that TP worked directly with John Rudge, a 100% football man with a wealth of managerial experience and a long track record of impressive signings at both Vale and Stoke Rudgie's book is out later this year apparently. Should be interesting.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 19, 2023 10:25:17 GMT
So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders... It also ignores the character of the man he doesn’t do collaboration he’s a control freak. Don’t know why there’s all this misty eyed nostalgia over him his tenures were mostly awful. The couple of times he produced anything decent he tore it apart. He's certainly an autocrat with a fixed way of playing. Giving him a voice in transfers wouldn't work unless we were going to play exactly how we played under him, four centre halves, cage, Mama role and the rest.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 19, 2023 10:29:15 GMT
Ameobi was supposed to cost 1/2 a million for the last 5 games Like I've said a few times. All managers get them wrong. Bothroyd was a minimal effect signing too I could name 15 shit signings he made probably. Why did he get so many more right in this league with a wank budget than our other champ managers and how can we copy the method I wouldn't even call Ameobi a bad signing. What if his signing kicked the other forwards up a notch because they didn't want to lose their place in the first team? Sidibe doubled his league goal tally with 2 goals in an important 2-1 win near the end of the season (Sidibe was WAY more than his goals of course). And what if Sidibe or Fuller had got injured? Ameobi was good backup for them both.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 19, 2023 10:35:37 GMT
Like I've said a few times. All managers get them wrong. Bothroyd was a minimal effect signing too I could name 15 shit signings he made probably. Why did he get so many more right in this league with a wank budget than our other champ managers and how can we copy the method I wouldn't even call Ameobi a bad signing. What if his signing kicked the other forwards up a notch because they didn't want to lose their place in the first team? Sidibe doubled his league goal tally with 2 goals in an important 2-1 win near the end of the season (Sidibe was WAY more than his goals of course). And what if Sidibe or Fuller had got injured? Ameobi was good backup for them both. He was crap though. Unfit and uninterested. We're probably lucky he got injured.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 19, 2023 10:36:53 GMT
It's worth remembering that TP worked directly with John Rudge, a 100% football man with a wealth of managerial experience and a long track record of impressive signings at both Vale and Stoke Would he have brought him in though had Rudge not already been at the club? I know he was brought back from 'gardening leave' but I always assumed that had more to with Coates coming back.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jan 19, 2023 10:38:44 GMT
He was the right man for the right time, working under the right ownership operating in a model that was suitable for the finances we had.
But football has fundamentally changed and a lot of how we operate in giving managers almost absolutely agency over all things at the club is no longer likely to work out. Financial restraints (placed on most clubs by lack of cash, placed upon us by incredibly reckless spending) mean you now have to really squeeze the most out of as little as possible and give yourselves and edge. In the case of Brentford and Brighton that's by exploiting the incredible (and in Brentford's case) proprietary data analysis teams they have that have catapulted them up the leagues despite having to sell their best players year on year. Or in the case of Norwich you hire someone with extensive knowledge of cheaper, foreign markets and bring the best of those leagues here similarly identifying value where others overlook it and then you appoint a coach willing to work within that in a collaborative environment.
We are essentially still in the Pulis model, manager has almost complete control over all aspects of the football club and can change it on a whim. If your club ends up in a tailspin, you will end up in a cycle of hiring managers with totally different styles and outlooks on the game and end up with a mish-mash of those styles which adequately describes our last 5 years.
A lot is being made of Ricky Martin, he is an Alex Neil hire, not a board one. He's essentially his mate and is just another cog in the "manager first" system described above and championed at repeated times by the club.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 19, 2023 10:40:30 GMT
Today, a player like Fuller wouldn’t be in the Championship looking for a new home. He’d be sitting on the bench/chilling in the stands for a Premier League team. Same thing goes for Hendrie, Lawrence and Cresswell. Premier League clubs hoover these types of players up and give them huge paydays. It’s broken this league. There’s barely any quality in it and the quality that is there is gone after 1-2 good seasons. You don’t really get players like Peter Whittingham anymore, who excel in this league and don’t get taken away. 2/3rds of Premier League players are now foreign, which is a dramatic increase on 15 years ago. The Championship has loads more foreign players. So wouldn't that even out the balance of Premier League clubs hoovering up all the talent to some extent? Now that every club has reams of data on players, I think it's more difficult for managers to make a difference in signings compared to even 5 years ago. So when it comes to signings, maybe it's about what a club can offer that other clubs can't or won't. Maybe that's the kind of support Stoke City and Pulis gave to players like Delap and Etherington in the past. I think subsequent managers tried to replicate that but largely failed (with some obvious exceptions like Hughes with Bojan, Arnautovic etc. but big failures like Imbula and Berahino).
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 19, 2023 10:42:23 GMT
100% Like I said this isn't designed to be a bring back Pulis thread. But would it be so bad if he had a role with an input on signings. Could he be the defensive scout or the bloke we use to identify a target man So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders... Not saying I want him back but FFS his football when he played 4-4-2 pisses all of the shit we have been watching for the past six seasons
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 19, 2023 10:42:55 GMT
As I said earlier I think two of the advantages Pulis had in the promotion season was that there was no FFP regulations and loan signings could be brought into a club up till a few matches before the end of the season on the then transfer deadline day. So if a Campbell or Souttar got there injuries under Pulis he would have immediately been able to loan a replacement. Likewise, if it was obvious we didn't have a decent right back. It also meant that if like Tymon a player was going to be out for up to a couple of months we could get a short term replacement in. There was no restriction on the size of squad or the number of players used so totally different way of assembling a squad.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 19, 2023 10:45:35 GMT
So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders... Not saying I want him back but FFS his football when he played 4-4-2 pisses all of the shit we have been watching for the past six seasons He played 4-4-1-1. It wasn't so much a criticism as a fact.
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Post by Fenparkpotter on Jan 19, 2023 10:48:24 GMT
It's worth remembering that TP worked directly with John Rudge, a 100% football man with a wealth of managerial experience and a long track record of impressive signings at both Vale and Stoke Would he have brought him in though had Rudge not already been at the club? I know he was brought back from 'gardening leave' but I always assumed that had more to with Coates coming back. Not sure, but in a way, that should be how the club operates. Rather than bowing to the whim of every manager that comes in for their own personnel, then leaving us within a couple of years to do it all again, the club had a permanent "football man" at the club to keep the club building forward through different managers (Megson, Thordarson, Cotterill, Pulis, Boskamp, Pulis and Hughes over 14 years of generally upward progress). TP was more than happy to work with Rudge in both spells at the club, and presumably knew that was the deal when he joined, as it was with the other managers. Even when one manager (Boskamp) found the situation untenable, the board seemingly sided with the club man.
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Post by BlurtonRed on Jan 19, 2023 11:02:13 GMT
He also surrounded himself with good football people. Peter Reid, Gerry Francis, John Rudge (I know he was already here) and Dave Kemp(I know). But all were experienced, all knew their way around football, all of them had contacts in the game.
When I think of a typical Pulis signing, I always think big, strong, a good pro and more than anything a good character
God I'd love be back there. I'm not even a huge Pulis fan
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Post by hardcastle on Jan 19, 2023 11:32:31 GMT
Spot on regarding the impact of honouring the contract in the case of the badly injured Delap and addressing Matty's gambling issue. You can't ignore the effect that this had on the morale and commitment of the team as a whole.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 19, 2023 11:33:32 GMT
Would he have brought him in though had Rudge not already been at the club? I know he was brought back from 'gardening leave' but I always assumed that had more to with Coates coming back. Not sure, but in a way, that should be how the club operates. Rather than bowing to the whim of every manager that comes in for their own personnel, then leaving us within a couple of years to do it all again, the club had a permanent "football man" at the club to keep the club building forward through different managers (Megson, Thordarson, Cotterill, Pulis, Boskamp, Pulis and Hughes over 14 years of generally upward progress). TP was more than happy to work with Rudge in both spells at the club, and presumably knew that was the deal when he joined, as it was with the other managers. Even when one manager (Boskamp) found the situation untenable, the board seemingly sided with the club man. No he ended up on gardening leave along with someone else. Coates sided with Rudge but the Icelanders seemingly sided with Boskamp. The Icelanders originally employed Rudge as well I think.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jan 19, 2023 11:34:55 GMT
So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders... Not saying I want him back but FFS his football when he played 4-4-2 pisses all of the shit we have been watching for the past six seasons What utter guff, his football was in the vast majority awful. It was binary football by design. Both times he got us scoring an above average ammount of goals he wilfully meddled and made things worse. Promotion season we were scoring goals for fun. We had Southampton and Scunthorpe at home a few days apart, won both games 3-2 and they were really entertaining games. He couldn't take that he went negative and we struggled to score goals and win games for the rest of the season. Somehow we limped home with a joint record low points for automatic promotion to the Prem. Cup final season we were so bad his position was coming under question before the 5th round tie with WHU, then we had a purple patch again scoring for fun upto the semi. Low and behold he ripped it all up and we spent a great deal of our so called European adventure season watching the excruciating spectacle of Charlie Adam playing behind Peter Crouch and you've guessed it really struggling to score goals. Binary was not as some frame it a protest from him, it was his MO.
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Post by scfc75 on Jan 19, 2023 11:58:04 GMT
Absolutely love a TP thread. Can’t get enough of them. Maybe we should have a TP sub-board? Triffic.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 19, 2023 12:04:04 GMT
He brought in 36 players first time around. Over 3 years, a lot of them free transfers... Most of them successful So we didn't pay wages or anything then? 12 new players a season - that's a new team! He did a great job and did what was needed, but to suggest he did it on a shoestring is not correct. Like all managers he signed some great, good, average and poor footballers. Most were a success due to ability and attitude.
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Post by somersetstokie on Jan 19, 2023 12:04:05 GMT
The throw was a lot more effective in the Prem than it was in the Championship. You're probably right there, if you're talking about the actual carnage the throw created. I've always believed it enabled a lot more within the team though. Like you mentioned in another post earlier TP had a knack of rejuvenating other teams scrapped players and I believe the throw helped the likes of Fuller, Lawrence, Cresswell and to an extent Ethers. They all knew that if they won a throw we were dangerous. It gave them the confidence to take on their opponents, which at times was a joy to watch. The crowd knew if we got it wide we were likely to make something of it. Unlike now when I suspect that most of the team think that a throw in is just a chance to get a 70 second breather!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jan 19, 2023 12:05:43 GMT
He had the second largest budget in the Championship when we were promoted. If that's true its irrelevant really because we had the top budget in the league when we came down and had the most expensive team in the league for the first 3 seasons down. Realistically Rowett should have had us top 6 even without being given the biggest budget in the division That's completely ignoring the context when they took over. Rowett inherited a completely dysfunctional squad of wasters and a club with ridiculously high expectations given the state we were in. Pulis inherited an average but functional squad with high hopes a no expectations. It really isn't how much you throw money at a problem - it depends on how big the problem is in the first place and some problems can't be solved by money alone.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 19, 2023 12:07:36 GMT
100% Like I said this isn't designed to be a bring back Pulis thread. But would it be so bad if he had a role with an input on signings. Could he be the defensive scout or the bloke we use to identify a target man So long as you don't want any full backs or creative midfielders... You don't need full backs when you have 10 Centre Backs on the books
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