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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 11, 2022 14:23:07 GMT
I can't remember which thread it was we were discussing the rift at the club in terms of staff fighting their own corner instead of wanting the best for the club. I think it was the Nathan Jones one but I think it is more appropriate to say this on here today. Alex Neil gives a little hint to it when he says departments were left to their own devices which means nobody was keeping a hold on them and making sure they were working for the good of the club. He references medical, sports science, recruitment and the academy and says it has been happening since Scholes left. The rumour I heard was that it was happening while Scholes was here but you can see how it would work. Medical staff refusing to let players train, sports science similar saying stats say players need a rest etc, etc. Only my conspiracy theory if you like but you can imagine each department wanting the best for themselves rather than the club and perhaps making it difficult for a manager and easier for players wanting a free ride.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 11, 2022 14:43:32 GMT
I can't remember which thread it was we were discussing the rift at the club in terms of staff fighting their own corner instead of wanting the best for the club. I think it was the Nathan Jones one but I think it is more appropriate to say this on here today. Alex Neil gives a little hint to it when he says departments were left to their own devices which means nobody was keeping a hold on them and making sure they were working for the good of the club. He references medical, sports science, recruitment and the academy and says it has been happening since Scholes left. The rumour I heard was that it was happening while Scholes was here but you can see how it would work. Medical staff refusing to let players train, sports science similar saying stats say players need a rest etc, etc. Only my conspiracy theory if you like but you can imagine each department wanting the best for themselves rather than the club and perhaps making it difficult for a manager and easier for players wanting a free ride. It's almost as if all along we've needed someone above the manager and a coherent strategy to look after all that stuff rather than each being their own little fiefdom...
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Post by FullerMagic on Nov 11, 2022 17:36:20 GMT
Again, no mention of Cousins who'd supposedly been doing this since February www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/stoke-ricky-martin-technical-director-7812544“The last time I worked with Ricky it was at Norwich. The clubs I’ve been at since, Preston and Sunderland, there wasn’t necessarily a role that needed filling with somebody like Ricky, with his skillset. “When I’ve come in here and looked at where we are and what’s required, it stood out like a sore thumb that we need someone like him to come in and get a handle on specific things for us and driving.
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Post by RF10 on Nov 11, 2022 22:04:59 GMT
Again, no mention of Cousins who'd supposedly been doing this since February www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/stoke-ricky-martin-technical-director-7812544“The last time I worked with Ricky it was at Norwich. The clubs I’ve been at since, Preston and Sunderland, there wasn’t necessarily a role that needed filling with somebody like Ricky, with his skillset. “When I’ve come in here and looked at where we are and what’s required, it stood out like a sore thumb that we need someone like him to come in and get a handle on specific things for us and driving. On the next Question time with John he really needs to be asked the reason behind allowing managers to hand pick people they should have no involvement in selecting. It's really not a sustainable system.
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2022 0:46:16 GMT
Again, no mention of Cousins who'd supposedly been doing this since February www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/stoke-ricky-martin-technical-director-7812544“The last time I worked with Ricky it was at Norwich. The clubs I’ve been at since, Preston and Sunderland, there wasn’t necessarily a role that needed filling with somebody like Ricky, with his skillset. “When I’ve come in here and looked at where we are and what’s required, it stood out like a sore thumb that we need someone like him to come in and get a handle on specific things for us and driving. On the next Question time with John he really needs to be asked the reason behind allowing managers to hand pick people they should have no involvement in selecting. It's really not a sustainable system. Neil does say he recommended him not appointed him so presumably Jon thought he was the best candidate. I assume from what he says that AN asked for someone to take on that role so that he can concentrate on coaching. He would naturally mention someone he had worked well with before. That doesn't mean he demanded that Martin be given the job.
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Post by dirtclod on Nov 12, 2022 3:04:25 GMT
I want to see what Martin can do. Like the sound of taking things in this organization to the next level. The front office has not addressed the general malaise, so a little reorganization is called for.
A manager wanting to concentrate on managing things on the pitch, knows a proven guy who can remove the other distractions. So he recommends him, Jon likes what he hears bada bing bada boom - what a concept. This is scary because it smacks of common sense.
Yeah I'm an oddball - [negative waves Moriarty! Always with them negative waves!]
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Post by foster on Nov 12, 2022 7:38:57 GMT
On the next Question time with John he really needs to be asked the reason behind allowing managers to hand pick people they should have no involvement in selecting. It's really not a sustainable system. Neil does say he recommended him not appointed him so presumably Jon thought he was the best candidate. I assume from what he says that AN asked for someone to take on that role so that he can concentrate on coaching. He would naturally mention someone he had worked well with before. That doesn't mean he demanded that Martin be given the job. Absolutely normal in football for coaches to bring in their own staff and recommend players they've worked with before... so I see no different here. Makes total sense to bring in someone that AN knows and has worked well with in the past.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 7:42:18 GMT
Neil does say he recommended him not appointed him so presumably Jon thought he was the best candidate. I assume from what he says that AN asked for someone to take on that role so that he can concentrate on coaching. He would naturally mention someone he had worked well with before. That doesn't mean he demanded that Martin be given the job. Absolutely normal in football for coaches to bring in their own staff and recommend players they've worked with before... so I see no different here. Makes total sense to bring in someone that AN knows and has worked well with in the past. It isn’t normal for a manager to bring in someone to a role that traditionally sits above them though. You tend not to appoint your own boss.
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Post by foster on Nov 12, 2022 7:43:24 GMT
Absolutely normal in football for coaches to bring in their own staff and recommend players they've worked with before... so I see no different here. Makes total sense to bring in someone that AN knows and has worked well with in the past. It isn’t normal for a manager to bring in someone to a role that traditionally sits above them though. You tend not to appoint your own boss. He didn't bring him in though. He recommended him.... and Ricky is not above AN.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 7:45:13 GMT
It isn’t normal for a manager to bring in someone to a role that traditionally sits above them though. You tend not to appoint your own boss. He didn't bring him in though. He recommended him.... and Ricky is not above AN. That’s the issue isn’t it? The technical director role should sit above the manager. That’s how it works elsewhere. We just ask a manager to get their mate in. It’s arse about face.
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Post by foster on Nov 12, 2022 8:00:17 GMT
He didn't bring him in though. He recommended him.... and Ricky is not above AN. That’s the issue isn’t it? The technical director role should sit above the manager. That’s how it works elsewhere. We just ask a manager to get their mate in. It’s arse about face. I think you're just looking for an issue that isn't there. After hearing AN on the matter it seems sensible to me.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 8:04:57 GMT
That’s the issue isn’t it? The technical director role should sit above the manager. That’s how it works elsewhere. We just ask a manager to get their mate in. It’s arse about face. I think you're just looking for an issue that isn't there. After hearing AN on the matter it seems sensible to me. It’s a long-standing issue that’s helped put us in the position we’re in, that everything is driven by the manager. What continuity does this offer us if and when AN moves on?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 12, 2022 8:09:38 GMT
That’s the issue isn’t it? The technical director role should sit above the manager. That’s how it works elsewhere. We just ask a manager to get their mate in. It’s arse about face. I think you're just looking for an issue that isn't there. After hearing AN on the matter it seems sensible to me. It’s the exact same scenario we’ve been in before. It’s daft.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2022 8:12:57 GMT
The fact that the manager has had to tell the owners that the structure of their club has a big fuck off hole in it tells you all you need to know really.
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2022 10:54:42 GMT
Neil does say he recommended him not appointed him so presumably Jon thought he was the best candidate. I assume from what he says that AN asked for someone to take on that role so that he can concentrate on coaching. He would naturally mention someone he had worked well with before. That doesn't mean he demanded that Martin be given the job. Absolutely normal in football for coaches to bring in their own staff and recommend players they've worked with before... so I see no different here. Makes total sense to bring in someone that AN knows and has worked well with in the past. So true. Surely it is better to appoint someone the manager has worked with before than let, as haters refers to him, 'someone who knows nothing about running a football club' choose some random bloke like Cartwright. Even Scholes does not appear to have done his job properly so who do critics suggest chooses the chief executive? It is a football job not a financial one. Surely AN is in a better position to choose than anyone else at the club and has only worked with Martin at Norwich. It's not a job for a mate either as Martin had a very good one at West Ham.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 12:02:42 GMT
Absolutely normal in football for coaches to bring in their own staff and recommend players they've worked with before... so I see no different here. Makes total sense to bring in someone that AN knows and has worked well with in the past. So true. Surely it is better to appoint someone the manager has worked with before than let, as haters refers to him, 'someone who knows nothing about running a football club' choose some random bloke like Cartwright. Even Scholes does not appear to have done his job properly so who do critics suggest chooses the chief executive? It is a football job not a financial one. Surely AN is in a better position to choose than anyone else at the club and has only worked with Martin at Norwich. It's not a job for a mate either as Martin had a very good one at West Ham. His role at West Ham was decidedly different to this one though and what you're advocating is someone appointing their own boss. How objective are they going to be?
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Post by lordb on Nov 12, 2022 12:09:51 GMT
So true. Surely it is better to appoint someone the manager has worked with before than let, as haters refers to him, 'someone who knows nothing about running a football club' choose some random bloke like Cartwright. Even Scholes does not appear to have done his job properly so who do critics suggest chooses the chief executive? It is a football job not a financial one. Surely AN is in a better position to choose than anyone else at the club and has only worked with Martin at Norwich. It's not a job for a mate either as Martin had a very good one at West Ham. His role at West Ham was decidedly different to this one though and what you're advocating is someone appointing their own boss. How objective are they going to be? I don't get that AN is the boss if anything, otherwise it's two separate/complimentary jobs Can Martin sack AN?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 12:11:35 GMT
His role at West Ham was decidedly different to this one though and what you're advocating is someone appointing their own boss. How objective are they going to be? I don't get that AN is the boss if anything, otherwise it's two separate/complimentary jobs Can Martin sack AN? Yep, it feels like AN is the boss. The same arrangement as MON/Cousins. Tail wags dog.
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Post by lordb on Nov 12, 2022 12:28:34 GMT
I don't get that AN is the boss if anything, otherwise it's two separate/complimentary jobs Can Martin sack AN? Yep, it feels like AN is the boss. The same arrangement as MON/Cousins. Tail wags dog. I don't see that
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 12:43:17 GMT
Yep, it feels like AN is the boss. The same arrangement as MON/Cousins. Tail wags dog. I don't see that It’s not how that role works elsewhere is it? It’s not what Ashworth’s role was at Brighton, for example. It’s a role that’s supposed to allow for continuity and to develop a club philosophy above the manager. How does that work when the appointment is the manager’s mate and clearly driven by him?
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Post by lordb on Nov 12, 2022 13:38:16 GMT
It’s not how that role works elsewhere is it? It’s not what Ashworth’s role was at Brighton, for example. It’s a role that’s supposed to allow for continuity and to develop a club philosophy above the manager. How does that work when the appointment is the manager’s mate and clearly driven by him? It's not the same role, he's working for the manager If he'd been appointed in the same role as Ashworth that would be tail wagging the dog, this is simply a complimentary job, he's not el supremo
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 14:02:00 GMT
It’s not how that role works elsewhere is it? It’s not what Ashworth’s role was at Brighton, for example. It’s a role that’s supposed to allow for continuity and to develop a club philosophy above the manager. How does that work when the appointment is the manager’s mate and clearly driven by him? It's not the same role, he's working for the manager If he'd been appointed in the same role as Ashworth that would be tail wagging the dog, this is simply a complimentary job, he's not el supremo It’s different to how other technical director roles work in that case and a bizarre version of it.
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Post by theonlooker on Nov 12, 2022 14:24:32 GMT
The fact that the manager has had to tell the owners that the structure of their club has a big fuck off hole in it tells you all you need to know really. The last manager had to also, and had to set about changing it, hence the arrival of Cousins et al. It's a worrying development for me, so soon after the club themselves made the changes quite recently as last summer with Cousins moving upstairs and a re-jig of the other side of the business. It's clear that the owners don't have a complete handle on the structure required. This smacks very much of Pulis when he brought in Gerry Francis. An ally in the boardroom and a general dogs body to lighten the load.
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Post by lordb on Nov 12, 2022 14:30:10 GMT
It's not the same role, he's working for the manager If he'd been appointed in the same role as Ashworth that would be tail wagging the dog, this is simply a complimentary job, he's not el supremo It’s different to how other technical director roles work in that case and a bizarre version of it. Forget the title He's just doing jobs than AN Thats it
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 12, 2022 14:33:48 GMT
It’s different to how other technical director roles work in that case and a bizarre version of it. Forget the title He's just doing jobs than AN Thats it Why give him that title and make mention of the stuff Scholes was doing in that case?
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Post by dirtclod on Nov 12, 2022 16:53:32 GMT
Again, I see it as AN coming in and seeing a hole in our organization, which most of us agree, has holes/issues. AN wants to manage the football team, not evaluate transfer-targets, scout, research, keep the transfer-dong inflated, etc. He stated that it's part of our renovation to get to "the next level."
It worked for him in the past so to me, it's plain to see what AN's thinking here. And believe me, he has enough on the pitch to worry about. Give it a chance to work before we start jumping out of windows.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 14, 2022 12:54:00 GMT
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Post by cheadlepotter on Nov 14, 2022 13:41:13 GMT
I quite enjoyed reading that CP1, thank you. I’ve got a feeling Martin’s appointment will be a good one and bring us into modern times. The break for the World Cup has come at a great time for the club both on and off the pitch.
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Post by thestatusquo on Nov 14, 2022 14:01:09 GMT
Black cats and voodoo dolls probably
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 14, 2022 14:10:31 GMT
Mentions in the article that Cousins is still there and likely now to have the title head of recruitment instead of his former title head of football operations.
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