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Post by theonlooker on Jul 26, 2022 8:53:34 GMT
Why would a manager turn on a player <21 years old and refuse to speak to him? There must be a reason if it's true at all? It just doesn't make sense and the context here is who your contact is and what is his or her angle? So there is no picture building that that's what he's like (MON) very similar story told by Ostigaard. He thought he was doing fine then dropped from the team and then the squad no conversation no explanation. Seemingly odd treatment of Edwards, Surridge, Forrester, Doughty, Bursik. I've no idea what it is, non of them are my favorite players just strikes me he washes his hands of players on the basis of rather minor things(you assume if there were serious and persistent breaches of discipline they'd get out, they always do). Seems to be a very old fashioned way of dealing with people but why should I be surprised we're a very old fashioned club. DWP was another who was allegedly in a breach of club rules at Bournemouth last season, was abolished from the squad for weeks yet he's recently signed a new deal and spoke of MON as a father figure. I guess it cuts both ways?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 8:54:10 GMT
Sometimes if you have two talented youngsters vying for one position the decision is to fully invest in one and move the other on, or have them both potentially being hampered by a lack of opportunity. I suspect this is one of those occasions....... It's not our decision though. And within that we've hampered his development with countless loans, countless 30 year olds etc. There is room for both. We have chosen not to make that room and give a 39 and 33 year old the chance instead. And probably a loan too.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 8:56:56 GMT
All of them should be with us for another 2/3 seasons. I think both him and Taylor have a chance of being better than Souttar. To me it sounds like you don't rate Souttar that much, I might be wrong, but I think if Souttar stays fit he can make the step up to a top 6 club in the PL. Time will tell though no matter what our opinions are. I rate Souttar. But at the same age the other two are better, which I just find enormously encouraging. I don't rate him as highly as you clearly though. I think with a fair wind he'd do well in the middle of the PL but think he's got deficiencies he'd need to iron out to do that consistently. But he's done that so far with every challenge so there's nothing stopping him doing that again.
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Post by superalexneil on Jul 26, 2022 9:01:22 GMT
To me it sounds like you don't rate Souttar that much, I might be wrong, but I think if Souttar stays fit he can make the step up to a top 6 club in the PL. Time will tell though no matter what our opinions are. I rate Souttar. But at the same age the other two are better, which I just find enormously encouraging. I don't rate him as highly as you clearly though. I think with a fair wind he'd do well in the middle of the PL but think he's got deficiencies he'd need to iron out to do that consistently. But he's done that so far with every challenge so there's nothing stopping him doing that again. You think forrester is better than souttar? but your rod away, crank
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 9:03:13 GMT
I rate Souttar. But at the same age the other two are better, which I just find enormously encouraging. I don't rate him as highly as you clearly though. I think with a fair wind he'd do well in the middle of the PL but think he's got deficiencies he'd need to iron out to do that consistently. But he's done that so far with every challenge so there's nothing stopping him doing that again. You think forrester is better than souttar? but your rod away, crank Potentially yes. No rod. He was always one rung below Collins in the talent level, Souttar was two/three. I think him and Taylor are better at their respective ages. Obviously it's not a linear development but they both definitely could be.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 9:04:36 GMT
To me it sounds like you don't rate Souttar that much, I might be wrong, but I think if Souttar stays fit he can make the step up to a top 6 club in the PL. Time will tell though no matter what our opinions are. I rate Souttar. But at the same age the other two are better, which I just find enormously encouraging. I don't rate him as highly as you clearly though. I think with a fair wind he'd do well in the middle of the PL but think he's got deficiencies he'd need to iron out to do that consistently. But he's done that so far with every challenge so there's nothing stopping him doing that again. By what metric is Forrester better than Souttar at 21? Souttar was just coming off a successful loan spell at Fleetwood and going in to another full season with them and had been picked for the Australian national team at this point.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jul 26, 2022 9:05:34 GMT
So there is no picture building that that's what he's like (MON) very similar story told by Ostigaard. He thought he was doing fine then dropped from the team and then the squad no conversation no explanation. Seemingly odd treatment of Edwards, Surridge, Forrester, Doughty, Bursik. I've no idea what it is, non of them are my favorite players just strikes me he washes his hands of players on the basis of rather minor things(you assume if there were serious and persistent breaches of discipline they'd get out, they always do). Seems to be a very old fashioned way of dealing with people but why should I be surprised we're a very old fashioned club. DWP was another who was allegedly in a breach of club rules at Bournemouth last season, was abolished from the squad for weeks yet he's recently signed a new deal and spoke of MON as a father figure. I guess it cuts both ways? You asked a question about seemingly odd behavior, I answered that it was becoming a pattern not that it was exclusive. To me it's odd behavior maybe some players accept it more readily than others. Obviously the club is OK with it as they keep sanctioning his actions. Top and bottom of it is I think he has far too much power at the club and that's a completely separate issue to not liking his football. I don't think it's healthy for one person to have such dictatorial control.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 9:06:19 GMT
Sometimes if you have two talented youngsters vying for one position the decision is to fully invest in one and move the other on, or have them both potentially being hampered by a lack of opportunity. I suspect this is one of those occasions....... It's not our decision though. And within that we've hampered his development with countless loans, countless 30 year olds etc. There is room for both. We have chosen not to make that room and give a 39 and 33 year old the chance instead. And probably a loan too. He had a loan at Mansfield, yes he got injured but when he was fit they still chose not to play him.......
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Post by theonlooker on Jul 26, 2022 9:06:58 GMT
DWP was another who was allegedly in a breach of club rules at Bournemouth last season, was abolished from the squad for weeks yet he's recently signed a new deal and spoke of MON as a father figure. I guess it cuts both ways? You asked a question about seemingly odd behavior, I answered that it was becoming a pattern not that it was exclusive. To me it's odd behavior maybe some players accept it more readily than others. Obviously the club is OK with it as they keep sanctioning his actions. Top and bottom of it is I think he has far too much power at the club and that's a completely separate issue to not liking his football. I don't think it's healthy for one person to have such dictatorial control. You know my feelings on the owners and the power they lazily give to their managers. We're in total agreement on that one.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 9:08:54 GMT
I rate Souttar. But at the same age the other two are better, which I just find enormously encouraging. I don't rate him as highly as you clearly though. I think with a fair wind he'd do well in the middle of the PL but think he's got deficiencies he'd need to iron out to do that consistently. But he's done that so far with every challenge so there's nothing stopping him doing that again. By what metric is Forrester better than Souttar at 21? Souttar was just coming off a successful loan spell at Fleetwood and going in to another full season with them and had been picked for the Australian national team at this point. Forrester is ready for Champo football. Souttar wasn't at that point.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jul 26, 2022 9:09:22 GMT
I rate Souttar. But at the same age the other two are better, which I just find enormously encouraging. I don't rate him as highly as you clearly though. I think with a fair wind he'd do well in the middle of the PL but think he's got deficiencies he'd need to iron out to do that consistently. But he's done that so far with every challenge so there's nothing stopping him doing that again. By what metric is Forrester better than Souttar at 21? Souttar was just coming off a successful loan spell at Fleetwood and going in to another full season with them and had been picked for the Australian national team at this point. Souttar is a far better physical specimen than Forrester as well as being a decent defender and footballer. Maybe Bayern doesn't rate that as a quality.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Jul 26, 2022 9:09:29 GMT
I wish him well. Great lad.
Many say that they don't know too much about him, and that 's the saddest bit - for me, never got the opportunities he deserved. Why play Chester etc instead of a promising youngster who has shown he's hot tons of ability? Absolutely awful management imho, that was.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jul 26, 2022 9:10:46 GMT
It's not our decision though. And within that we've hampered his development with countless loans, countless 30 year olds etc. There is room for both. We have chosen not to make that room and give a 39 and 33 year old the chance instead. And probably a loan too. He had a loan at Mansfield, yes he got injured but when he was fit they still chose not to play him....... Yet Nigel Clough clearly stated he wanted him back so you're not painting the complete picture deliberately or otherwise.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jul 26, 2022 9:11:46 GMT
I wish him well. Great lad. Many say that they don't know too much about him, and that 's the saddest bit - for me, never got the opportunities he deserved. Why play Chester etc instead of a promising youngster who has shown he's hot tons of ability? Absolutely awful management imho, that was. You could have just said why play Chester. That was enough.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 26, 2022 9:11:58 GMT
By what metric is Forrester better than Souttar at 21? Souttar was just coming off a successful loan spell at Fleetwood and going in to another full season with them and had been picked for the Australian national team at this point. Souttar is a far better physical specimen than Forrester as well as being a decent defender and footballer. Maybe Bayern doesn't rate that as a quality. I like the both of them and actually think they'd compliment each really well as a pair.
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Post by suck_the_mop. on Jul 26, 2022 9:12:25 GMT
First direct transfer for 40 years between the two clubs Gareth Owen went on loan and it became a permanent deal, not sure if a fee was involved. Mark Chamberlain.
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Post by Batfink on Jul 26, 2022 9:14:22 GMT
DWP was another who was allegedly in a breach of club rules at Bournemouth last season, was abolished from the squad for weeks yet he's recently signed a new deal and spoke of MON as a father figure. I guess it cuts both ways? You asked a question about seemingly odd behavior, I answered that it was becoming a pattern not that it was exclusive. To me it's odd behavior maybe some players accept it more readily than others. Obviously the club is OK with it as they keep sanctioning his actions. Top and bottom of it is I think he has far too much power at the club and that's a completely separate issue to not liking his football. I don't think it's healthy for one person to have such dictatorial control. It could also also be their responses to being ‘told off’. Sulking and tarting would be met more unfavourably than learning, dusting yourself off and moving on. It’s like with kids. But non of us really know. The fact that the club keep sanctioning it though, for me, leans towards it being the children having a tantrum, rather than the father being unfair.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 9:14:23 GMT
By what metric is Forrester better than Souttar at 21? Souttar was just coming off a successful loan spell at Fleetwood and going in to another full season with them and had been picked for the Australian national team at this point. Souttar is a far better physical specimen than Forrester as well as being a decent defender and footballer. Maybe Bayern doesn't rate that as a quality. Is absolutely no comparison between the two , let's be honest.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jul 26, 2022 9:19:45 GMT
You asked a question about seemingly odd behavior, I answered that it was becoming a pattern not that it was exclusive. To me it's odd behavior maybe some players accept it more readily than others. Obviously the club is OK with it as they keep sanctioning his actions. Top and bottom of it is I think he has far too much power at the club and that's a completely separate issue to not liking his football. I don't think it's healthy for one person to have such dictatorial control. It could also also be their responses to being ‘told off’. Sulking and tarting would be met more unfavourably than learning, dusting yourself off and moving on. It’s like with kids. But non of us really know. The fact that the club keep sanctioning it though, for me, leans towards it being the children having a tantrum, rather than the father being unfair. It would be as wrong in parenting as it is in management. If it comes to the point where you have to punish an infraction you set a clear and proportionate punishment and when it's completed you move on not extend it because the person being punished sulked. That's basically being a dictator and a bully.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Jul 26, 2022 9:20:34 GMT
Souttar, Forrester, and Taylor would have made an excellent back 3 - at the very worst, they'd be in the shop window and we'd make very decent money. Sport is about opportunity - I don't think Will has been given enough.
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Post by robwahlmann on Jul 26, 2022 9:20:48 GMT
As he is under 24, do we get some kind of compensation or have we agreed to a larger sell-on-fee? Or other agreements!?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jul 26, 2022 9:21:58 GMT
Souttar is a far better physical specimen than Forrester as well as being a decent defender and footballer. Maybe Bayern doesn't rate that as a quality. Is absolutely no comparison between the two , let's be honest. Wouldn't know haven't seen enough of Forrester to make a judgement what I did see seemed ok no better no worse.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jul 26, 2022 9:26:40 GMT
Another odd episode in the life of an increasingly odd club.
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Post by Batfink on Jul 26, 2022 9:27:21 GMT
It could also also be their responses to being ‘told off’. Sulking and tarting would be met more unfavourably than learning, dusting yourself off and moving on. It’s like with kids. But non of us really know. The fact that the club keep sanctioning it though, for me, leans towards it being the children having a tantrum, rather than the father being unfair. It would be as wrong in parenting as it is in management. If it comes to the point where you have to punish an infraction you set a clear and proportionate punishment and when it's completed you move on not extend it because the person being punished sulked. That's basically being a dictator and a bully. But what if everyone thinks that it is ‘clear and proportionate’ punishment for the infraction except for the sulkers? Also it surely depends upon the extent of the sulk. It is definitely not that cut and dry. Again though, we don’t know from either side so nobody can possibly judge the extent of the punishment or the sulk, and therefore who is in the wrong or right.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 26, 2022 9:27:52 GMT
www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/will-forrester-stoke-port-vale-7381057Stoke City and Port Vale set to agree rare permanent transfer Exclusive Stoke City transfer news from StokeonTrentLive as neighbours Port Vale swoop for defenderStoke City defender Will Forrester is set to join Port Vale on a permanent deal in a rare transfer between to two clubs. The 21-year-old centre-back has come through the youth ranks at Stoke but will now make the short move to Vale, StokeonTrentLive understands. It is believed to be the first Stoke player to sign for Vale since John Lumsdon made the switch on loan way back in 1978.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 26, 2022 9:29:38 GMT
He had a loan at Mansfield, yes he got injured but when he was fit they still chose not to play him....... Yet Nigel Clough clearly stated he wanted him back so you're not painting the complete picture deliberately or otherwise. I'm stating a fact. When he was fit he chose not to play him............
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 9:31:29 GMT
Is absolutely no comparison between the two , let's be honest. Wouldn't know haven't seen enough of Forrester to make a judgement what I did see seemed ok no better no worse. He wouldn't be dropping down to the lower leagues if the the player are some claiming he is. Another case if a young player being seen as something they're not. We had it with the likes of Shenton, Edwards before and of course Verlinden All ended up at a level they were suited for
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Post by sheds1862 on Jul 26, 2022 9:33:48 GMT
Wouldn't know haven't seen enough of Forrester to make a judgement what I did see seemed ok no better no worse. He wouldn't be dropping down to the lower leagues if the the player are some claiming he is. Another case if a young player being seen as something they're not. We had it with the likes of Shenton, Edwards before and of course Verlinden All ended up at a level they were suited for You are talking as though we are vying for Europe. They are one division below us . Gayle has dropped a division to us .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 9:36:15 GMT
He wouldn't be dropping down to the lower leagues if the the player are some claiming he is. Another case if a young player being seen as something they're not. We had it with the likes of Shenton, Edwards before and of course Verlinden All ended up at a level they were suited for You are talking as though we are vying for Europe. They are one division below us . Can't see where I mentioned us vying for Europe. Yes, a division below us. Its a lower level of football. That's how it works
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Post by potterburt on Jul 26, 2022 9:37:18 GMT
Sometimes if you have two talented youngsters vying for one position the decision is to fully invest in one and move the other on, or have them both potentially being hampered by a lack of opportunity. I suspect this is one of those occasions....... It's not our decision though. And within that we've hampered his development with countless loans, countless 30 year olds etc. There is room for both. We have chosen not to make that room and give a 39 and 33 year old the chance instead. And probably a loan too. That’s complete speculation though. We don’t know that it was not our decision, could be that we offered a lowly sum on a short contract because we weren’t that fussed, he and his agent wanted more? 🤷♂️ he’s had 1 loan, not countless, and that involved 4 games for Mansfield in League 2. He’s valued at £45k - let’s not talk bollox that we’ve lost some Uber promising youngster due to mis-management just as a way to fuel your on going agenda Bayern. To me it’s also massively telling that he went on loan to local Mansfield and flopped and now he’s gone oh so far in heading to the Vale. Possibly a kid who might have rather narrow/local viewpoint on life and small footballing aspirations if he’s only staying local? Out of all the possible clubs you could go to for the best development, contract and first team opportunities and all so happens to be perfect for for the closest club to us…. 🤔
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