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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Feb 24, 2022 12:22:44 GMT
Wish O'Neil would fire his players up like that, and get in the oppositions faces!!!
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Post by andylgr on Feb 24, 2022 12:30:33 GMT
I think we all know that what Jones said is true of the squad at that time. But he simply wasn't up to the task of sorting it out and he was never going to get the time to do so either given the results, tactics, perfrormances and the chopping and changing that went on.
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 24, 2022 12:43:16 GMT
The comment MON made about maybe not having players for the aggression side of the game iritated me. He's had time to bring players in to suit. It should more than irritate people. When he was asked about why he didn't bring in a destroyer in midfield he said the game was moving away from that and he had no appetite for it, yet last night he mentioned we perhaps don't have the players in the building for a battle. Yeah, no shit Mick. You don't have to be a destroyer to be up for a battle. When the going gets tough the tough get going. John Walters and Glen Whelan immediately spring to mind. I know Whelan sat deep but he also was often the leader of a charge forward and had more to his game than spoiling defensive tactics. I think he's probably the type of midfield player MON would love. I've mentioned the Wayne Rooney interview I watched the other night (well worth the watch) and he was saying he learned to play on the streets where you had to be aggressive, it was either hurt or be hurt. I do wonder whether having kids learning to play in academies from the age of 6 rather than on the streets/playground makes them less aggressive and more precious when facing a bit of aggro.
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Post by cvillestokie on Feb 24, 2022 12:49:48 GMT
It should more than irritate people. When he was asked about why he didn't bring in a destroyer in midfield he said the game was moving away from that and he had no appetite for it, yet last night he mentioned we perhaps don't have the players in the building for a battle. Yeah, no shit Mick. You don't have to be a destroyer to be up for a battle. When the going gets tough the tough get going. John Walters and Glen Whelan immediately spring to mind. I know Whelan sat deep but he also was often the leader of a charge forward and had more to his game than spoiling defensive tactics. I think he's probably the type of midfield player MON would love. I've mentioned the Wayne Rooney interview I watched the other night (well worth the watch) and he was saying he learned to play on the streets where you had to be aggressive, it was either hurt or be hurt. I do wonder whether having kids learning to play in academies from the age of 6 rather than on the streets/playground makes them less aggressive and more precious when facing a bit of aggro. Or that kids learn from an early age that it’s acceptable to dive now as it’s an important part of the game, so being overly aggressive when there is a ref around is just drilled out of them. I doubt kids in the academies only play football there.
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 24, 2022 12:59:22 GMT
You don't have to be a destroyer to be up for a battle. When the going gets tough the tough get going. John Walters and Glen Whelan immediately spring to mind. I know Whelan sat deep but he also was often the leader of a charge forward and had more to his game than spoiling defensive tactics. I think he's probably the type of midfield player MON would love. I've mentioned the Wayne Rooney interview I watched the other night (well worth the watch) and he was saying he learned to play on the streets where you had to be aggressive, it was either hurt or be hurt. I do wonder whether having kids learning to play in academies from the age of 6 rather than on the streets/playground makes them less aggressive and more precious when facing a bit of aggro. Or that kids learn from an early age that it’s acceptable to dive now as it’s an important part of the game, so being overly aggressive when there is a ref around is just drilled out of them. I doubt kids in the academies only play football there. Our players can't even dive when faced with aggression they just get rid of the ball like a hot potato!
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Post by spitthedog on Feb 24, 2022 13:09:13 GMT
It is possible you can go into a job thinking you can manage a situation and then find out that you can't. He might have thought at the time he was strong enough to take on those egos and then find he couldn't Good managers do suffer because of player unrest. In Sheffield, it's common knowledge that Wilder completely lost the dressing room at Sheffield United after all that he done for that club and many of those players. In the end the board sided with the players they had no choice and Wilder couldn't get a tune out of them. This is a very good, seemingly strong, successful manager who was hung out to dry by his players, including the ones he had brought in. Was Wilder hung out to dry, or did they just get sick of him chucking them under the bus publicly every week? You can only do that a limited number of times as a manager, he was doing it every week. Rowett's own man-management was similarly appalling and you really have to be able to walk the walk if you're going to take that approach, rather than, say, setting up at home to Rotherham as if you're Guam away to Brazil. So presumably you don't rate Wilder as a good manager then? It just highlights the various components and factors that contribute to a manager being successful or unsuccessful at any one club at any one time. All of which are very dynamic.
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Post by Old School Stokie on Feb 24, 2022 13:19:50 GMT
I think Powell & Clucas to name the main culprits - epitomises what Nathan Jones was referring to. Powell a once upon a time talent who still thinks he's gods gift, but isnt. Look at some of the Man City players how they work hard off the ball to get it back and dont give it away easily - everything that Powell & Clucas are not. Its up to the manager to sort the character in players. Thats what made Stoke a difficult team to beat when we were last in the championship then premier League. Ignore that at our peril. We are a mediocre club with mediocre players & management at the moment
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Post by superalexneil on Feb 24, 2022 13:21:02 GMT
I think Powell & Clucas to name the main culprits - epitomises what Nathan Jones was referring to. Powell a once upon a time talent who still thinks he's gods gift, but isnt. Look at some of the Man City players how they work hard off the ball to get it back and dont give it away easily - everything that Powell & Clucas are not. Its up to the manager to sort the character in players. Thats what made Stoke a difficult team to beat when we were last in the championship then premier League. Ignore that at our peril. We are a mediocre club with mediocre players & management at the moment this is stoke fans in a nutshell, Nick Powell (been our stand out player, when fit, for 2 years) has 2 bad games and your putting him in the same sentence as sam clucas, get a grip!!!
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 24, 2022 13:22:03 GMT
Was Wilder hung out to dry, or did they just get sick of him chucking them under the bus publicly every week? You can only do that a limited number of times as a manager, he was doing it every week. Rowett's own man-management was similarly appalling and you really have to be able to walk the walk if you're going to take that approach, rather than, say, setting up at home to Rotherham as if you're Guam away to Brazil. So presumably you don't rate Wilder as a good manager then? It just highlights the various components and factors that contribute to a manager being successful or unsuccessful at any one club at any one time. All of which are very dynamic. It's no reflection on managerial ability when the dressing room turns against him. Players know they hold all the cards in a battle between them and a manager. Refusing to follow team instructions, disrupting training and even deliberately hijacking matches with deliberate mistakes or a la Pennant giving away penalties or getting sent off. You'll never hear of those sort of things being punished by a club beyond how the manager deals with it 'in house'. Pogba is a classic example at Man Utd.
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Post by GoBoks on Feb 24, 2022 13:34:41 GMT
I think Powell & Clucas to name the main culprits - epitomises what Nathan Jones was referring to. Powell a once upon a time talent who still thinks he's gods gift, but isnt. Look at some of the Man City players how they work hard off the ball to get it back and dont give it away easily - everything that Powell & Clucas are not. Its up to the manager to sort the character in players. Thats what made Stoke a difficult team to beat when we were last in the championship then premier League. Ignore that at our peril. We are a mediocre club with mediocre players & management at the moment I find the “at the moment” comment intriguing. Wouldn’t it have been better to say “and have been for most of our 150 years of existence”?
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Post by thevoid on Feb 24, 2022 13:51:41 GMT
I think Powell & Clucas to name the main culprits - epitomises what Nathan Jones was referring to. Powell a once upon a time talent who still thinks he's gods gift, but isnt. Look at some of the Man City players how they work hard off the ball to get it back and dont give it away easily - everything that Powell & Clucas are not. Its up to the manager to sort the character in players. Thats what made Stoke a difficult team to beat when we were last in the championship then premier League. Ignore that at our peril. We are a mediocre club with mediocre players & management at the moment I find the “at the moment” comment intriguing. Wouldn’t it have been better to say “and have been for most of our 150 years of existence”? Yeah let's just accept our lot and not hope for better. How dare Leicester suddenly start winning things and reaching Europe. And what the hell are Brentford thinking, they should be in League 1! And you call other people miserable 😎
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Post by foxysgloves on Feb 24, 2022 13:53:11 GMT
He can fuck right off.
Deluded prick.
If he thinks that shower are getting promoted then his gnawed fingernails are the least of his problems.
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Post by OldStokie on Feb 24, 2022 14:05:54 GMT
Like him or not, most of what he said was true. A group of players dedicated to the cause will beat a bunch of so-called 'superior footballers' more often than not if those 'superior players' have no fight in them. That's pretty much what he was saying.
OS.
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Post by GoBoks on Feb 24, 2022 14:08:36 GMT
I find the “at the moment” comment intriguing. Wouldn’t it have been better to say “and have been for most of our 150 years of existence”? Yeah let's just accept our lot and not hope for better. How dare Leicester suddenly start winning things and reaching Europe. And what the hell are Brentford thinking, they should be in League 1! And you call other people miserable 😎 ROFL A day or two ago when I used the Leicester example to show that it is possible to make up several points, the response was that I am a deluded fool for thinking that we had a chance. Now you want to use them as an example to show we can win things? 180 degree spin. My view is one step at a time. Occasionally someone wins the lottery. I hope to too, but I’m not going to base my financial plan on it. Likewise, I go into every game, be it Man City or Stevenage believing we can win and I’m bitterly disappointed if we don’t. But I can’t see any point in supporting a team if you constantly believe they’re going to lose. Talking of stalkers, that comment wasn’t addressed to you, perhaps you should stick to your negative principles and ignore me?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 24, 2022 14:23:41 GMT
Was Wilder hung out to dry, or did they just get sick of him chucking them under the bus publicly every week? You can only do that a limited number of times as a manager, he was doing it every week. Rowett's own man-management was similarly appalling and you really have to be able to walk the walk if you're going to take that approach, rather than, say, setting up at home to Rotherham as if you're Guam away to Brazil. So presumably you don't rate Wilder as a good manager then? It just highlights the various components and factors that contribute to a manager being successful or unsuccessful at any one club at any one time. All of which are very dynamic. I think it's more nuanced than that. A manager can do a good job then go stale or lose the plot. It happened to our best two managers of recent times. Wilder did a great job there for a long time and is doing a great job at Boro but he lost the plot in between with some ropey man management and awful recruitment. Rowett is a decent enough manager for a certain type of club but his mighty mouse routine wasn't at all suitable to a club our size and with our resources and the expectations that inevitably come with that.
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Post by canadastk on Feb 24, 2022 15:06:21 GMT
I'm not sure they dominated Allen but apart from that he's got it pretty much spot on. I read his comments in the Sentinel. Fact is, he is correct. Luton has a fraction of our budget but has spent there budget wisely on hungry, aggressive young players. They press and take there chances when presented. I certainly wasn't a fan of his during his short term with us but you can't deny that he is getting full value out of his squad. MoN is a great General Manager and recruiter and should be retained in that position but we require a Manager with greater experience than MoN.
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Post by tosh on Feb 24, 2022 15:06:42 GMT
I think Powell & Clucas to name the main culprits - epitomises what Nathan Jones was referring to. Powell a once upon a time talent who still thinks he's gods gift, but isnt. Look at some of the Man City players how they work hard off the ball to get it back and dont give it away easily - everything that Powell & Clucas are not. Its up to the manager to sort the character in players. Thats what made Stoke a difficult team to beat when we were last in the championship then premier League. Ignore that at our peril. We are a mediocre club with mediocre players & management at the moment this is stoke fans in a nutshell, Nick Powell (been our stand out player, when fit, for 2 years) has 2 bad games and your putting him in the same sentence as sam clucas, get a grip!!! Maybe in terms of his personality, and the effect of his somewhat superior and casual attitude on other members of the squad, he deserves it? Can’t quite make my mind up.
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Post by onepara on Feb 24, 2022 15:47:54 GMT
O'Neill should watch that interview & learn about passion & determination.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Feb 24, 2022 15:59:01 GMT
I'm not sure they dominated Allen but apart from that he's got it pretty much spot on. I read his comments in the Sentinel. Fact is, he is correct. Luton has a fraction of our budget but has spent there budget wisely on hungry, aggressive young players. They press and take there chances when presented. I certainly wasn't a fan of his during his short term with us but you can't deny that he is getting full value out of his squad. MoN is a great General Manager and recruiter and should be retained in that position but we require a Manager with greater experience than MoN. It amazes me that he never bought these kind of players to Stoke then if that's his philosophy!!! 🤔
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 16:05:40 GMT
Roughly (NJ) ...the crowd are turning now ,if we go out and get at them second half we can win this ...I tried to recreate that passion and desire here , I couldn't ...
He's not the only one who tried and failed in that department.
Rowett would understand what's he's saying and so would MoN
Millwall v stoke this season , the first ten seconds ...a stoke player laid out cold with a challenge so far off the ball , even the lino didn't know what happened . Then straight through the back of surridge every time the ball went near him and insisting he dived ... brilliant ...you can guarantee a bottler like surridge will start diving around and prove them right within five mins ! Rowett told them what to do and his lads got stuck in and did it from the off
Millwall players will get stuck in for rowett and Luton players for NJ , but stoke players for neither .
And now MoN is struggling with the same problem.
There is a culture at stoke ,a cosy comfortable culture ,that's hard to shift , that's a difficult part of being stoke manager.
It was a similar kind of culture when TP walked through the door .
It was a culture TP hated and was hell bent on changing, when he walked through the door.
Because changing that culture was TP's biggest priority,he was portrayed by his critics as being narrow minded and more interested in players putting a shift in than playing football
In hindsight that's maybe harsh .
Perhaps privately, rowett NJ and MoN realise you have to change that culture at stoke or you are stuffed.
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Post by TinkerT on Feb 24, 2022 16:13:45 GMT
Roughly (NJ) ...the crowd are turning now ,if we go out and get at them second half we can win this ...I tried to recreate that passion and desire here , I couldn't ... He's not the only one who tried and failed in that department. Rowett would understand what's he's saying and so would MoN Millwall v stoke this season , the first ten seconds ...a stoke player laid out cold with a challenge so far off the ball , even the lino didn't know what happened . Then straight through the back of surridge every time the ball went near him and insisting he dived ... brilliant ...you can guarantee a bottler like surridge will start diving around and prove them right within five mins ! Rowett told them what to do and his lads got stuck in and did it from the off Millwall players will get stuck in for rowett and Luton players for NJ , but stoke players for neither . And now MoN is struggling with the same problem. There is a culture at stoke ,a cosy comfortable culture ,that's hard to shift , that's a difficult part of being stoke manager. It was a similar kind of culture when TP walked through the door . It was a culture TP hated and was hell bent on changing, when he walked through the door. Because changing that culture was TP's biggest priority,he was portrayed by his critics as being narrow minded and more interested in players putting a shift in than playing football In hindsight that's maybe harsh . Perhaps privately, rowett NJ and MoN realise you have to change that culture at stoke or you are stuffed. It's not just the players either the fans are as bad sometimes. Remember when we came down and were drawing games at HT and our players went off to boos because we tried keeping the ball?. Also the incidents you mentioned in our prem days the players and refs would get both barrels, now the fans just sit there and do naff all. The whole club is absolute rotten and we need a manager to unite us and make us proud. NJ spoke the right talk but the players didn't want to buy into it, its the players who need wholesale clearouts, still think mon has a massive job on hands and needs get the likes of clucas and Allen out.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 16:51:29 GMT
MoN has a massive job on his hands at stoke
It doesn't alter the fact , that he has to succeed , or he will be shown the door .
But i do feel that people with actual knowledge of managing Stoke City , like NJ , know exactly how hard it is,
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Post by silsdenstokie on Feb 24, 2022 16:57:32 GMT
Theres some truth in what he says but he seems to forget all the shite he brought in himself (powell aside if memory serves)
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 24, 2022 17:07:24 GMT
Roughly (NJ) ...the crowd are turning now ,if we go out and get at them second half we can win this ...I tried to recreate that passion and desire here , I couldn't ... He's not the only one who tried and failed in that department. Rowett would understand what's he's saying and so would MoN Millwall v stoke this season , the first ten seconds ...a stoke player laid out cold with a challenge so far off the ball , even the lino didn't know what happened . Then straight through the back of surridge every time the ball went near him and insisting he dived ... brilliant ...you can guarantee a bottler like surridge will start diving around and prove them right within five mins ! Rowett told them what to do and his lads got stuck in and did it from the off Millwall players will get stuck in for rowett and Luton players for NJ , but stoke players for neither . And now MoN is struggling with the same problem. There is a culture at stoke ,a cosy comfortable culture ,that's hard to shift , that's a difficult part of being stoke manager. It was a similar kind of culture when TP walked through the door . It was a culture TP hated and was hell bent on changing, when he walked through the door. Because changing that culture was TP's biggest priority,he was portrayed by his critics as being narrow minded and more interested in players putting a shift in than playing football In hindsight that's maybe harsh . Perhaps privately, rowett NJ and MoN realise you have to change that culture at stoke or you are stuffed. In what way did Rowett try and get passion and desire going? His tactics had all the passion and desire of a wet caravan holiday in Barrow-in-Furness?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 24, 2022 17:08:38 GMT
Roughly (NJ) ...the crowd are turning now ,if we go out and get at them second half we can win this ...I tried to recreate that passion and desire here , I couldn't ... He's not the only one who tried and failed in that department. Rowett would understand what's he's saying and so would MoN Millwall v stoke this season , the first ten seconds ...a stoke player laid out cold with a challenge so far off the ball , even the lino didn't know what happened . Then straight through the back of surridge every time the ball went near him and insisting he dived ... brilliant ...you can guarantee a bottler like surridge will start diving around and prove them right within five mins ! Rowett told them what to do and his lads got stuck in and did it from the off Millwall players will get stuck in for rowett and Luton players for NJ , but stoke players for neither . And now MoN is struggling with the same problem. There is a culture at stoke ,a cosy comfortable culture ,that's hard to shift , that's a difficult part of being stoke manager. It was a similar kind of culture when TP walked through the door . It was a culture TP hated and was hell bent on changing, when he walked through the door. Because changing that culture was TP's biggest priority,he was portrayed by his critics as being narrow minded and more interested in players putting a shift in than playing football In hindsight that's maybe harsh . Perhaps privately, rowett NJ and MoN realise you have to change that culture at stoke or you are stuffed. It's not just the players either the fans are as bad sometimes. Remember when we came down and were drawing games at HT and our players went off to boos because we tried keeping the ball?. Also the incidents you mentioned in our prem days the players and refs would get both barrels, now the fans just sit there and do naff all. The whole club is absolute rotten and we need a manager to unite us and make us proud. NJ spoke the right talk but the players didn't want to buy into it, its the players who need wholesale clearouts, still think mon has a massive job on hands and needs get the likes of clucas and Allen out. Which players, the vast majority of them have gone from that era? Last night wasn't anything to do with Allen or Clucas?
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 24, 2022 17:23:01 GMT
You don't have to be a destroyer to be up for a battle. When the going gets tough the tough get going. John Walters and Glen Whelan immediately spring to mind. I know Whelan sat deep but he also was often the leader of a charge forward and had more to his game than spoiling defensive tactics. I think he's probably the type of midfield player MON would love. I've mentioned the Wayne Rooney interview I watched the other night (well worth the watch) and he was saying he learned to play on the streets where you had to be aggressive, it was either hurt or be hurt. I do wonder whether having kids learning to play in academies from the age of 6 rather than on the streets/playground makes them less aggressive and more precious when facing a bit of aggro. Or that kids learn from an early age that it’s acceptable to dive now as it’s an important part of the game, so being overly aggressive when there is a ref around is just drilled out of them. I doubt kids in the academies only play football there. They aren't allowed to go out and play on the streets or in the park though with no adult supervision where it's dog eats dog and every kid for themselves.
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Post by TinkerT on Feb 24, 2022 17:28:47 GMT
It's not just the players either the fans are as bad sometimes. Remember when we came down and were drawing games at HT and our players went off to boos because we tried keeping the ball?. Also the incidents you mentioned in our prem days the players and refs would get both barrels, now the fans just sit there and do naff all. The whole club is absolute rotten and we need a manager to unite us and make us proud. NJ spoke the right talk but the players didn't want to buy into it, its the players who need wholesale clearouts, still think mon has a massive job on hands and needs get the likes of clucas and Allen out. Which players, the vast majority of them have gone from that era? Last night wasn't anything to do with Allen or Clucas? We still have players earning big wages who can't motivate themselves, Fletcher, Chester, Powell, Allen, clucas the list goes on. They don't have to be playing to create a toxic atmosphere either.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 24, 2022 17:32:03 GMT
Which players, the vast majority of them have gone from that era? Last night wasn't anything to do with Allen or Clucas? We still have players earning big wages who can't motivate themselves, Fletcher, Chester, Powell, Allen, clucas the list goes on. They don't have to be playing to create a toxic atmosphere either. Fletcher and Chester were MON signings. Powell has been excellent for us. Allen has glaring faults but a lack of effort isn't one of them and he was the only player to emerge with any credit from last night. Clucas I'll give you but he didn't play last night.
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Post by steinosjockstrap on Feb 24, 2022 18:15:00 GMT
I know feelings are raw after last night, but the manager head to heads are: P W D L PTS O'Neill 5 3 1 1 10 Jones 5 1 1 3 4
They only got the draw because they conned a penalty in injury time. Funny how he didn't come out with that after 3 defeats on the bounce. If our players were "on it", we'd have beaten them again last night.
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Post by spitthedog on Feb 24, 2022 19:35:06 GMT
So presumably you don't rate Wilder as a good manager then? It just highlights the various components and factors that contribute to a manager being successful or unsuccessful at any one club at any one time. All of which are very dynamic. I think it's more nuanced than that. A manager can do a good job then go stale or lose the plot. It happened to our best two managers of recent times. Wilder did a great job there for a long time and is doing a great job at Boro but he lost the plot in between with some ropey man management and awful recruitment. Rowett is a decent enough manager for a certain type of club but his mighty mouse routine wasn't at all suitable to a club our size and with our resources and the expectations that inevitably come with that. I agree it is more nuanced and managerial success is almost the exact opposite of an exact science, but that is how it is often portrayed.
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