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Post by nott1 on May 28, 2022 6:23:05 GMT
I must've missed the 'passion and hunger to do well' he supposedly showed during his time here. Compare him with Fletcher, Maja and Sima, I'm not saying he was a word beater or a 20 goal a season striker but he was way ahead of whet they gave us, 4 fucking goals between them yet some on here still seem to want to continue to slate a player who has quite obviously continued to show his passion and hunger to do well with his new club. Some people just have a dislike for players - seems like some fans and MON did for Surrige. Gouranga. We have been sadly lacking in the striker positions including Surridge ,who just looked a clumsy oaf whilst with us.
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Post by stormin on May 28, 2022 6:55:34 GMT
I've been told that MON does banish players for things other managers wouldn't and definitely shouldn't do. Things like what, for example? Do you think highly rated Doughty will be back?
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Post by theonlooker on May 28, 2022 6:59:06 GMT
Things like what, for example? Do you think highly rated Doughty will be back? I've no idea? Maybe he will follow young Aldridge down to Millwall?
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 28, 2022 8:43:26 GMT
Do you think highly rated Doughty will be back? I've no idea? Maybe he will follow young Aldridge down to Millwall? Another one banished for no good reason. 3m on players he doesn’t rate. Useless.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 28, 2022 8:51:04 GMT
I've no idea? Maybe he will follow young Aldridge down to Millwall? Another ok banished for no good reason. 3m on players he doesn’t rate. Useless. Not sure why it happens. Is it that he doesn’t rate them or that he doesn’t like them personally. Either way it’s pretty damning, it’s either poor judgement of players attributes and abilities or just rank bad management. Any manager worth his while should be able to manage a whole range of personalities not create a cult to himself.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 28, 2022 8:53:48 GMT
Another ok banished for no good reason. 3m on players he doesn’t rate. Useless. Not sure why it happens. Is it that he doesn’t rate them or that he doesn’t like them personally. Either way it’s pretty damning, it’s either poor judgement of players attributes and abilities or just rank bad management. Any manager worth his while should be able to manage a whole range of personalities not create a cult to himself. Even the basic 3m spent and then got rid of then within 12 months is enough to be sacked. Without worrying about the whys of it all. We’re not in a position to be wasting that sort of money.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 28, 2022 9:00:42 GMT
I can't say I saw much promise at all in him after that lightning-quick start.
But you've got to ask why because he must have been buzzing after that early flurry of goals - and his revival under Cooper shows the tools are there.
I knew he wasn't a target man after listening to the interview with someone from a Bournemouth fanzine on Radio Stoke the day he joined. He pretty much described an anti target-man.
So it's clear what type he was from the off. There's no way MON hadn't watched hours of footage of him, even if it was Aldo's algorithm that flagged him initially.
We were very lucky one of the 2-3 teams with any money had a manager who'd worked with him previously and actually needed a striker in deadline week or we'd have been saddled with him after a probably unsuccessful loan spell at Cardiff.
His signing was the product of months of scouting and represented a massive outlay in terms of the 2021 Championship, which is very worrying.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 28, 2022 9:01:05 GMT
Not sure why it happens. Is it that he doesn’t rate them or that he doesn’t like them personally. Either way it’s pretty damning, it’s either poor judgement of players attributes and abilities or just rank bad management. Any manager worth his while should be able to manage a whole range of personalities not create a cult to himself. Even the basic 3m spent and then got rid of then within 12 months is enough to be sacked. Without worrying about the whys of it all. We’re not in a position to be wasting that sort of money. Could give an insight as to the type of environment most likely to be successful. Very draconian disciplinarian regimes seem popular with older folk but is there much evidence in the modern game or modern life in general of them being successful?
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Post by lordb on May 28, 2022 9:02:42 GMT
Even the basic 3m spent and then got rid of then within 12 months is enough to be sacked. Without worrying about the whys of it all. We’re not in a position to be wasting that sort of money. Could give an insight as to the type of environment most likely to be successful. Very draconian disciplinarian regimes seem popular with older folk but is there much evidence in the modern game or modern life in general of them being successful? Discipline looks strong at Man City and Liverpool Looks poor at Man United
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 28, 2022 9:03:52 GMT
Could give an insight as to the type of environment most likely to be successful. Very draconian disciplinarian regimes seem popular with older folk but is there much evidence in the modern game or modern life in general of them being successful? Discipline looks strong at Man City and Liverpool Looks poor at Man United Foden would not have got away with his antics under MON. He’d have been shipped out.
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Post by lordb on May 28, 2022 9:08:08 GMT
Discipline looks strong at Man City and Liverpool Looks poor at Man United Foden would not have got away with his antics under MON. He’d have been shipped out. Like DWP has been shipped out? & Fodens antics were away with England once which he rightly got dropped for Southgate rightly brought him back in the fold and it's all fine, well managed and great response from Foden who appears to be a decent character Very similar to how O'Neill handled DWP really You don't see anyone mess Pep or Klopp about
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 28, 2022 9:12:58 GMT
Foden would not have got away with his antics under MON. He’d have been shipped out. Like DWP has been shipped out? & Fodens antics were away with England once which he rightly got dropped for Southgate rightly brought him back in the fold and it's all fine, well managed and great response from Foden who appears to be a decent character Very similar to how O'Neill handled DWP really You don't see anyone mess Pep or Klopp about Foden has been up to plenty! We handled DWP terribly and Bursik and Edwards. And you do. Like with Foden. They’re just more flexible.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 28, 2022 9:17:36 GMT
Discipline looks strong at Man City and Liverpool Looks poor at Man United Foden would not have got away with his antics under MON. He’d have been shipped out. What is antics, being an individual? Surely you’re making your job a lot more difficult if you can’t deal with somewhat maverick individuals in an industry that’s close to being a performing art. Many if not most of the best players in history have been wayward individuals. TP’s disciplinary blind spot was Ric can you imagine how soulless that team would have been without him?
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Post by theonlooker on May 28, 2022 9:53:10 GMT
I can't say I saw much promise at all in him after that lightning-quick start. But you've got to ask why because he must have been buzzing after that early flurry of goals - and his revival under Cooper shows the tools are there. I knew he wasn't a target man after listening to the interview with someone from a Bournemouth fanzine on Radio Stoke the day he joined. He pretty much described an anti target-man. So it's clear what type he was from the off. There's no way MON hadn't watched hours of footage of him, even if it was Aldo's algorithm that flagged him initially. We were very lucky one of the 2-3 teams with any money had a manager who'd worked with him previously and actually needed a striker in deadline week or we'd have been saddled with him after a probably unsuccessful loan spell at Cardiff. His signing was the product of months of scouting and represented a massive outlay in terms of the 2021 Championship, which is very worrying. This is the danger of going down the road of algorithm type signings where there are plenty of other examples of it going right. We certainly aren't going to get it right first time.
The issue I have with us using this system is why haven't we had a proper stats based recruitment system before now? Why has it taken a 'wet behind the ears' club manager, straight out of international management to actually drag the club off it's lazy arse and put this in place? I could understand it if we were owned by Delia Smith for example, a TV chef with no real background in this kind of malarkey but we are owned by one of the best tech bookies around - and lord knows how many algorithms they have in place at Bet365 to help drive market prices. Surely it wasn't that much to think about to put two and two together and implement it into our club?
On top of that they had the example of Matthew Benham at Brentford - who had his own business that was designed to beat the bookies - so they would have been well aware of him and what he was all about!
Where we are now I see a few main issues - first one is the fact that the system is so wedded to the current manager and he has all of his own people in key positions - should he leave and his staff follow we have a new system that the owners didn't design or implement, arguably have little interest in (harsh?), hasn't had too much time to bed in and gain any traction and we run the risk of it being disbanded before it's even started properly.
The other issue is we don't have a bona fide football brain above the manager and in the boardroom - Andy Cousins is classed as a senior person but in reality he is the managers man and isn't really senior. We need genuine direction at the top - a man with experience of not just England but abroad and someone who has his finger on the pulse of the trends and how modern football is evolving. Owners worth nearly 9Bn should not find it hard to find one, put them in place and remunerate them at a level they require. It just HAS to be the direction any club with pretentions of PL football go in.
The positive of the system we have in place is the logic we seem to be applying to transfers, which might have taken the 'luck' out of us getting most of our money back for Surridge. We seem to be giving 30+ players a year with an option, and only paying fees for players <24 with room to grow and develop. I think that is sound and sensible logic, which following on from my frustrations about only implementing a system now, would have helped limit the damage of the Rowett era and would certainly not see us in the mess we've been in for the last few years.
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Post by questionable on May 28, 2022 10:28:19 GMT
Regardless how shit/bad/good/average he was with us ON signed him and 100% on his head.
Fact of the matter is ON is a friggin shockingly bad manager who should have also been shown the door, got to the point where I hate the bloke now.
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Post by mowlee on May 28, 2022 10:34:20 GMT
Regardless how shit/bad/good/average he was with us ON signed him and 100% on his head. Fact of the matter is ON is a friggin shockingly bad manager who should have also been shown the door, got to the point where I hate the bloke now. am totally with ya.. donna worry.. first couple of defeats an the pressure will be on.. can’t see it ending well at all.. mon should of left on his own accord but hierarchy are main culprits.. letting a situation get toxic an untenable.. u wouldn’t think their business men an billionaires
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Post by foxysgloves on May 28, 2022 11:07:30 GMT
Regardless how shit/bad/good/average he was with us ON signed him and 100% on his head. Fact of the matter is ON is a friggin shockingly bad manager who should have also been shown the door, got to the point where I hate the bloke now. You hate him? For what exactly? Seems a bit strong.
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Post by pushon on May 28, 2022 11:38:35 GMT
I can't say I saw much promise at all in him after that lightning-quick start. But you've got to ask why because he must have been buzzing after that early flurry of goals - and his revival under Cooper shows the tools are there. I knew he wasn't a target man after listening to the interview with someone from a Bournemouth fanzine on Radio Stoke the day he joined. He pretty much described an anti target-man. So it's clear what type he was from the off. There's no way MON hadn't watched hours of footage of him, even if it was Aldo's algorithm that flagged him initially. We were very lucky one of the 2-3 teams with any money had a manager who'd worked with him previously and actually needed a striker in deadline week or we'd have been saddled with him after a probably unsuccessful loan spell at Cardiff. His signing was the product of months of scouting and represented a massive outlay in terms of the 2021 Championship, which is very worrying. This is the danger of going down the road of algorithm type signings where there are plenty of other examples of it going right. We certainly aren't going to get it right first time.
The issue I have with us using this system is why haven't we had a proper stats based recruitment system before now? Why has it taken a 'wet behind the ears' club manager, straight out of international management to actually drag the club off it's lazy arse and put this in place? I could understand it if we were owned by Delia Smith for example, a TV chef with no real background in this kind of malarkey but we are owned by one of the best tech bookies around - and lord knows how many algorithms they have in place at Bet365 to help drive market prices. Surely it wasn't that much to think about to put two and two together and implement it into our club? On top of that they had the example of Matthew Benham at Brentford - who had his own business that was designed to beat the bookies - so they would have been well aware of him and what he was all about! Where we are now I see a few main issues - first one is the fact that the system is so wedded to the current manager and he has all of his own people in key positions - should he leave and his staff follow we have a new system that the owners didn't design or implement, arguably have little interest in (harsh?), hasn't had too much time to bed in and gain any traction and we run the risk of it being disbanded before it's even started properly. The other issue is we don't have a bona fide football brain above the manager and in the boardroom - Andy Cousins is classed as a senior person but in reality he is the managers man and isn't really senior. We need genuine direction at the top - a man with experience of not just England but abroad and someone who has his finger on the pulse of the trends and how modern football is evolving. Owners worth nearly 9Bn should not find it hard to find one, put them in place and remunerate them at a level they require. It just HAS to be the direction any club with pretentions of PL football go in.
The positive of the system we have in place is the logic we seem to be applying to transfers, which might have taken the 'luck' out of us getting most of our money back for Surridge. We seem to be giving 30+ players a year with an option, and only paying fees for players <24 with room to grow and develop. I think that is sound and sensible logic, which following on from my frustrations about only implementing a system now, would have helped limit the damage of the Rowett era and would certainly not see us in the mess we've been in for the last few years.
The foremost priority at Bet 365 won't be Stoke City and quite understandably. Which other clubs have a bona fide football brain in the boardroom who 'calls the shots?'I'm not taking the 'p', but I am curious.
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Post by theonlooker on May 28, 2022 12:07:33 GMT
This is the danger of going down the road of algorithm type signings where there are plenty of other examples of it going right. We certainly aren't going to get it right first time.
The issue I have with us using this system is why haven't we had a proper stats based recruitment system before now? Why has it taken a 'wet behind the ears' club manager, straight out of international management to actually drag the club off it's lazy arse and put this in place? I could understand it if we were owned by Delia Smith for example, a TV chef with no real background in this kind of malarkey but we are owned by one of the best tech bookies around - and lord knows how many algorithms they have in place at Bet365 to help drive market prices. Surely it wasn't that much to think about to put two and two together and implement it into our club? On top of that they had the example of Matthew Benham at Brentford - who had his own business that was designed to beat the bookies - so they would have been well aware of him and what he was all about! Where we are now I see a few main issues - first one is the fact that the system is so wedded to the current manager and he has all of his own people in key positions - should he leave and his staff follow we have a new system that the owners didn't design or implement, arguably have little interest in (harsh?), hasn't had too much time to bed in and gain any traction and we run the risk of it being disbanded before it's even started properly. The other issue is we don't have a bona fide football brain above the manager and in the boardroom - Andy Cousins is classed as a senior person but in reality he is the managers man and isn't really senior. We need genuine direction at the top - a man with experience of not just England but abroad and someone who has his finger on the pulse of the trends and how modern football is evolving. Owners worth nearly 9Bn should not find it hard to find one, put them in place and remunerate them at a level they require. It just HAS to be the direction any club with pretentions of PL football go in.
The positive of the system we have in place is the logic we seem to be applying to transfers, which might have taken the 'luck' out of us getting most of our money back for Surridge. We seem to be giving 30+ players a year with an option, and only paying fees for players <24 with room to grow and develop. I think that is sound and sensible logic, which following on from my frustrations about only implementing a system now, would have helped limit the damage of the Rowett era and would certainly not see us in the mess we've been in for the last few years.
The foremost priority at Bet 365 won't be Stoke City and quite understandably. Which other clubs have a bona fide football brain in the boardroom who 'calls the shots?'I'm not taking the 'p', but I am curious. Where did I say 'calls the shots' out of interest?
I'm talking about a director of football or a consultancy type role that can help the directors steer the club in the right direction. Turn on BT sport and you'll see Wrexham playing Grimsby - the two Holywood lads employ Les Reed as a consultant to help them run the club on the football side of the business. Even the Shanahans at the Vale have employed David Flitcroft in a similar role. There's two clubs in Non-League and League Two that have something we don't.
We had nobody until MON rocked up, and he picked his mate from NI and even that is in a role that can't really be described as a Director of Football type role. Before that it was John's mate Cartwright, a glorified agent as a Technical Director.
Pretty much all top clubs have one these days. We are so far behind the times it is untrue.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 28, 2022 12:18:17 GMT
The foremost priority at Bet 365 won't be Stoke City and quite understandably. Which other clubs have a bona fide football brain in the boardroom who 'calls the shots?'I'm not taking the 'p', but I am curious. Where did I say 'calls the shots' out of interest?
I'm talking about a director of football or a consultancy type role that can help the directors steer the club in the right direction. Turn on BT sport and you'll see Wrexham playing Grimsby - the two Holywood lads employ Les Reed as a consultant to help them run the club on the football side of the business. Even the Shanahans at the Vale have employed David Flitcroft in a similar role. There's two clubs in Non-League and League Two that have something we don't.
We had nobody until MON rocked up, and he picked his mate from NI and even that is in a role that can't really be described as a Director of Football type role. Before that it was John's mate Cartwright, a glorified agent as a Technical Director.
Pretty much all top clubs have one these days. We are so far behind the times it is untrue.
Didn’t know that’s where Les Reed was nowadays he’s miles better than that I’d take him as DoF here anyday and if he could persuade Nicola Cortese along with him as CEO all the better they worked miracles at Southampton.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 28, 2022 12:26:00 GMT
The foremost priority at Bet 365 won't be Stoke City and quite understandably. Which other clubs have a bona fide football brain in the boardroom who 'calls the shots?'I'm not taking the 'p', but I am curious. Where did I say 'calls the shots' out of interest?
I'm talking about a director of football or a consultancy type role that can help the directors steer the club in the right direction. Turn on BT sport and you'll see Wrexham playing Grimsby - the two Holywood lads employ Les Reed as a consultant to help them run the club on the football side of the business. Even the Shanahans at the Vale have employed David Flitcroft in a similar role. There's two clubs in Non-League and League Two that have something we don't.
We had nobody until MON rocked up, and he picked his mate from NI and even that is in a role that can't really be described as a Director of Football type role. Before that it was John's mate Cartwright, a glorified agent as a Technical Director.
Pretty much all top clubs have one these days. We are so far behind the times it is untrue.
trainingground.guru/articles/cousins-promoted-to-head-of-football-operations-by-stoke-cityIt muddies the waters that he's so clearly MON's man - but we don't actually know Cousins' exact remit , do we? Or his ability, for that matter. There's nothing to say he's any less able than Flitcroft at Vale, for example. Man City don't employ idiots. They all largely look at the same metrics and end up chasing the same players in their budget And, to be fair, we didn't know really what Carto brought to the table either. He was blamed for a lot of Hughes' late-period nonsense, wasn't he? Then had to put up with Rowett's insanity. And it's still usually the case that the manager has the final say. For example, Ten Hag is going after his old players, even if they have to theoretically go through some analytical filter. If a club retain any faith in the manager, if he puts his foot down, he gets his way usually. It's just a shame Hughes completely lost the plot and we employed a managerial team that thought Benik Afobe was worth £13m. That's bad luck in anyone's book I'd be very interested to know if the manager doesn't get the ultimate say in any manager-technical director/DOF dynamic. And if the DOF has the power to sack the manager at many clubs, certainly in England? Norwich seemed to be one such club - but their DOF seems to have completely lost the plot, to the point where pretty much 100% of their fans want him out.
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Post by theonlooker on May 28, 2022 12:49:21 GMT
Where did I say 'calls the shots' out of interest?
I'm talking about a director of football or a consultancy type role that can help the directors steer the club in the right direction. Turn on BT sport and you'll see Wrexham playing Grimsby - the two Holywood lads employ Les Reed as a consultant to help them run the club on the football side of the business. Even the Shanahans at the Vale have employed David Flitcroft in a similar role. There's two clubs in Non-League and League Two that have something we don't.
We had nobody until MON rocked up, and he picked his mate from NI and even that is in a role that can't really be described as a Director of Football type role. Before that it was John's mate Cartwright, a glorified agent as a Technical Director.
Pretty much all top clubs have one these days. We are so far behind the times it is untrue.
trainingground.guru/articles/cousins-promoted-to-head-of-football-operations-by-stoke-cityIt muddies the waters that he's so clearly MON's man - but we don't actually know Cousins' exact remit , do we? Or his ability, for that matter. There's nothing to say he's any less able than Flitcroft at Vale, for example. Man City don't employ idiots. They all largely look at the same metrics and end up chasing the same players in their budget And, to be fair, we didn't know really what Carto brought to the table either. He was blamed for a lot of Hughes' late-period nonsense, wasn't he? Then had to put up with Rowett's insanity. And it's still usually the case that the manager has the final say. For example, Ten Hag is going after his old players, even if they have to theoretically go through some analytical filter. If a club retain any faith in the manager, if he puts his foot down, he gets his way usually. It's just a shame Hughes completely lost the plot and we employed a managerial team that thought Benik Afobe was worth £13m. That's bad luck in anyone's book I'd be very interested to know if the manager doesn't get the ultimate say in any manager-technical director/DOF dynamic. And if the DOF has the power to sack the manager at many clubs, certainly in England? Norwich seemed to be one such club - but their DOF seems to have completely lost the plot, to the point where pretty much 100% of their fans want him out. Absolutely but we can't keep doing what we're doing can we? Until MON came in and steadied the ship, we were on a fast track to League One. We may still be on that track albeit at a slower pace. As a club and as a supporter base, we can't keep hanging everything on the manager, blame him for everything that goes wrong and pin all future fortunes on changing that manager for someone else. From the owners perspective, like it or not, the game has changed. Everything no longer hangs on a first team manager at most normal clubs. The first team coach is now just a cog that slots in and out of the machine when it stops working as well as it did. The overall processes that make up that machine - vision, recruitment etc are the key to it all. At our club, the manager IS the machine and when it stops working, or even fails to start working we have to change it all and hope the next one in is a more finely tuned version than the last and if not, run with it for 12 to 24 months and hope it kicks into life.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 28, 2022 12:58:18 GMT
trainingground.guru/articles/cousins-promoted-to-head-of-football-operations-by-stoke-cityIt muddies the waters that he's so clearly MON's man - but we don't actually know Cousins' exact remit , do we? Or his ability, for that matter. There's nothing to say he's any less able than Flitcroft at Vale, for example. Man City don't employ idiots. They all largely look at the same metrics and end up chasing the same players in their budget And, to be fair, we didn't know really what Carto brought to the table either. He was blamed for a lot of Hughes' late-period nonsense, wasn't he? Then had to put up with Rowett's insanity. And it's still usually the case that the manager has the final say. For example, Ten Hag is going after his old players, even if they have to theoretically go through some analytical filter. If a club retain any faith in the manager, if he puts his foot down, he gets his way usually. It's just a shame Hughes completely lost the plot and we employed a managerial team that thought Benik Afobe was worth £13m. That's bad luck in anyone's book I'd be very interested to know if the manager doesn't get the ultimate say in any manager-technical director/DOF dynamic. And if the DOF has the power to sack the manager at many clubs, certainly in England? Norwich seemed to be one such club - but their DOF seems to have completely lost the plot, to the point where pretty much 100% of their fans want him out. Absolutely but we can't keep doing what we're doing can we? Until MON came in and steadied the ship, we were on a fast track to League One. We may still be on that track albeit at a slower pace. As a club and as a supporter base, we can't keep hanging everything on the manager, blame him for everything that goes wrong and pin all future fortunes on changing that manager for someone else. From the owners perspective, like it or not, the game has changed. Everything no longer hangs on a first team manager at most normal clubs. The first team coach is now just a cog that slots in and out of the machine when it stops working as well as it did. The overall processes that make up that machine - vision, recruitment etc are the key to it all. At our club, the manager IS the machine and when it stops working, or even fails to start working we have to change it all and hope the next one in is a more finely tuned version than the last and if not, run with it for 12 to 24 months and hope it kicks into life. I just wonder how different it is at most clubs though. Unless you give the DOF real power to make signings and hire and fire, most things ultimately fall on the manager if they retain the ultimate veto power over signings. And in this country, there are hardly any examples where he doesn't. For example, Cooper had the power to splash £2m+ on Surridge because he'd had him for a season. Even Klopp does apparently, even though they've got this supposedly God-like transfer structure It just comes down to the judgement of the key individuals tasked with the key decisions, regardless of what title they have. I think in most cases, it's manager-led and clubs have success for as long as he can avoid losing the plot.
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Post by theonlooker on May 28, 2022 13:05:39 GMT
Absolutely but we can't keep doing what we're doing can we? Until MON came in and steadied the ship, we were on a fast track to League One. We may still be on that track albeit at a slower pace. As a club and as a supporter base, we can't keep hanging everything on the manager, blame him for everything that goes wrong and pin all future fortunes on changing that manager for someone else. From the owners perspective, like it or not, the game has changed. Everything no longer hangs on a first team manager at most normal clubs. The first team coach is now just a cog that slots in and out of the machine when it stops working as well as it did. The overall processes that make up that machine - vision, recruitment etc are the key to it all. At our club, the manager IS the machine and when it stops working, or even fails to start working we have to change it all and hope the next one in is a more finely tuned version than the last and if not, run with it for 12 to 24 months and hope it kicks into life. I just wonder how different it is at most clubs though. Unless you give the DOF real power to make signings and hire and fire, most things ultimately fall on the manager if they retain the ultimate veto power over signings. And in this country, there are hardly any examples where he doesn't. Even Klopp does apparently, even though they've got this supposedly God-like transfer structure It just comes down to the judgement of the key individuals tasked with the key decisions, regardless of what title they have. I think in most cases, it's manager-led and clubs have success for as long as he can avoid losing the plot. That's kind of the point though? In your other post you said we were unlucky to stumble on a manager that thought 12M for Benik Afobe was a good deal? The other alternative mentioned at the time was Cartwright suggesting Dwight Gayle. Neither fitted their choice of manager's system did they? Why? A good DOF could have maybe asked the question of the board about the suitability of a manager like Rowett to spend that money, or maybe even have suggested alternatives if the knowledge at that level of the club was to spend 50M+ ? Equally a good DOF might have steered them away from Nathan Jones where John's mate in the pub steered them to him? The bottom line is, we've spent nigh on 100M going from top 10 in the PL to four consecutive bottom half Championship finishes. We can argue the ins and outs all day but what we're doing and how we're operating just isn't working at all, and it needs to change.
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Post by mickstupp on May 28, 2022 13:28:19 GMT
Regardless how shit/bad/good/average he was with us ON signed him and 100% on his head. Fact of the matter is ON is a friggin shockingly bad manager who should have also been shown the door, got to the point where I hate the bloke now. Grow up FFS
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 28, 2022 13:31:47 GMT
Regardless how shit/bad/good/average he was with us ON signed him and 100% on his head. Fact of the matter is ON is a friggin shockingly bad manager who should have also been shown the door, got to the point where I hate the bloke now. What a relentless bore you are and this from a bloke that posted during the season that didn’t care if we lost🤔
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Post by FullerMagic on May 28, 2022 13:58:23 GMT
I just wonder how different it is at most clubs though. Unless you give the DOF real power to make signings and hire and fire, most things ultimately fall on the manager if they retain the ultimate veto power over signings. And in this country, there are hardly any examples where he doesn't. Even Klopp does apparently, even though they've got this supposedly God-like transfer structure It just comes down to the judgement of the key individuals tasked with the key decisions, regardless of what title they have. I think in most cases, it's manager-led and clubs have success for as long as he can avoid losing the plot. That's kind of the point though? In your other post you said we were unlucky to stumble on a manager that thought 12M for Benik Afobe was a good deal? The other alternative mentioned at the time was Cartwright suggesting Dwight Gayle. Neither fitted their choice of manager's system did they? Why? A good DOF could have maybe asked the question of the board about the suitability of a manager like Rowett to spend that money, or maybe even have suggested alternatives if the knowledge at that level of the club was to spend 50M+ ? Equally a good DOF might have steered them away from Nathan Jones where John's mate in the pub steered them to him? The bottom line is, we've spent nigh on 100M going from top 10 in the PL to four consecutive bottom half Championship finishes. We can argue the ins and outs all day but what we're doing and how we're operating just isn't working at all, and it needs to change. Tough to find a figure like that though. It looks like only about half the clubs in our league have even got anyone at that level, and it's unclear how many have real influence and power Webber looked like a diamond at Norwich, and yet 12 months where he seems to have barely put a foot right, and they want him hung, drawn and quartered. We'll have to see how the this structure goes because this will be here for the duration of the MON era - then at least when MON goes, so will Cousins. So there'll be a chance for yet another structural reboot then. It's always tough to attribute blame and credit though. A good manager can cover up failings elsewhere in the club, and a bad one can really highlight them.
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Post by nott1 on May 28, 2022 14:05:06 GMT
Things like what, for example? Do you think highly rated Doughty will be back? Highly rated by who? He's done beggar all so far!
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Post by theonlooker on May 28, 2022 14:35:07 GMT
That's kind of the point though? In your other post you said we were unlucky to stumble on a manager that thought 12M for Benik Afobe was a good deal? The other alternative mentioned at the time was Cartwright suggesting Dwight Gayle. Neither fitted their choice of manager's system did they? Why? A good DOF could have maybe asked the question of the board about the suitability of a manager like Rowett to spend that money, or maybe even have suggested alternatives if the knowledge at that level of the club was to spend 50M+ ? Equally a good DOF might have steered them away from Nathan Jones where John's mate in the pub steered them to him? The bottom line is, we've spent nigh on 100M going from top 10 in the PL to four consecutive bottom half Championship finishes. We can argue the ins and outs all day but what we're doing and how we're operating just isn't working at all, and it needs to change. Tough to find a figure like that though. It looks like only about half the clubs in our league have even got anyone at that level, and it's unclear how many have real influence and power Webber looked like a diamond at Norwich, and yet 12 months where he seems to have barely put a foot right, and they want him hung, drawn and quartered. We'll have to see how the this structure goes because this will be here for the duration of the MON era - then at least when MON goes, so will Cousins. So there'll be a chance for yet another structural reboot then. It's always tough to attribute blame and credit though. A good manager can cover up failings elsewhere in the club, and a bad one can really highlight them. The Webber thing at Norwich is simply a victim of the circumstances. There is no real room for progressive growth at a club that gets promotion, sells it's crown jewels - rinse repeat. They restrict themselves to a yo-yo model and it's only natural people will get fed up. I compare our owners wealth with that of the richest in our leagues and I look at them and they have no issue in finding good people to fill those roles. Now i'm not saying we should be fighting it out with the Chelsea's, Man City's of this world at the top of the PL but surely our owners could lay their hands on a good person to go in alongside them and work with them, and the finances won't be an issue would it? If they don't know people themselves they could surely pay someone as a consultant to help them find someone? Leicester and Brighton are similar sized clubs - one has foreign ownership, other has local ownership. Neither of those clubs have issues with finding good football people at boardroom level? You look at the makeup of the board right now and it's all insular - John and Peter with Richard Smith. With the greatest respect to them all, their football knowledge wouldn't go amiss on here - and we all talk shit on a daily basis. There are one or two posters that post regularly on here whose views I would take over our owners. Genuinely. You are one of them. The whole point of this though is there is obviously no appetite to change. They are happy with what they are doing, happy with how they run the club even if they might be frustrated with the results. Our daily arguments right now are around if we think the manager is doing a good enough job, and if we should sack him or stick with him - totally pointless in reality. They could sack him tomorrow, replace him with Chris Hughton and we'd all be pulling our hair out whist they would be slapping themselves on the back, happy with their days work. Equally they could wait until he has less than 6 months left on his deal, panic and bring in another Lambert. We've got to try a different direction and I hope they know it or if they don't, recognise it pretty quickly. Give it 5 years or so and the old skool manager won't even exist and they are thin on the ground now.
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Post by pushon on May 29, 2022 10:07:36 GMT
The foremost priority at Bet 365 won't be Stoke City and quite understandably. Which other clubs have a bona fide football brain in the boardroom who 'calls the shots?'I'm not taking the 'p', but I am curious. Where did I say 'calls the shots' out of interest?
I'm talking about a director of football or a consultancy type role that can help the directors steer the club in the right direction. Turn on BT sport and you'll see Wrexham playing Grimsby - the two Holywood lads employ Les Reed as a consultant to help them run the club on the football side of the business. Even the Shanahans at the Vale have employed David Flitcroft in a similar role. There's two clubs in Non-League and League Two that have something we don't.
We had nobody until MON rocked up, and he picked his mate from NI and even that is in a role that can't really be described as a Director of Football type role. Before that it was John's mate Cartwright, a glorified agent as a Technical Director.
Pretty much all top clubs have one these days. We are so far behind the times it is untrue.
We need genuine direction at the 'top',suggests to me an 'executive director' who indeed can 'call the shots', the role of the Chairman or CEO at most clubs I would say. An advisor on football related matters is certainly beneficial imho,but is usually a none executive director at best and is probably not able to dictate to the Fist Team Manager, as was the role of John Rudge in his time at Stoke.
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