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Post by thehoof on Jun 19, 2021 9:57:03 GMT
why are people surprised we were wank ? we've been wank for a very long time, we only ever progress in tournaments if we get an easy run, its not southgates fault per-se, we're just not very good, couple this with the fact our domestic league is very demanding then its no surprise we show up at tournament after tournament putting in sub par turgid performances. sure, southgate isn't a great manager, if he left the England job he'd probably struggle to get a premiership job, certainly non of the top 4 would touch him, but we've had one of the the best managers in world football (Capello) in charge and still we were wank so its not the manager thats the problem. we're better than the likes of Swedens and Denmarks but nowhere near as good as the likes of France, Italy, Portugal or Germany. Capello may once have been one of the best managers in the world, but his tactics and commitment to attacking football were non-existent. A real old “catenaccio” exponent-we score 1, the other side 0. If the other side scored first, that was it. Perhaps for all the money he was paid he should have mastered some basic football terms in English, but the idiots at the FA couldn’t see that employing a non - English speaking manager wouldn’t work.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 19, 2021 9:57:47 GMT
I’m mystified as to what job we’re asking from the full backs. If we’re going to be stodgy in the middle then the full backs have to fly forward when we’re on the front foot, but they haven’t done that so far. If the plan is to just tack on a quality attack to a nuts and bolts base, that isn’t going to work. I actually thought Pickford played well last night. Made some good saves and played at least one peach of a ball to create a good attacking situation for us. Pickford has done well so far, distribution has been excellent. Fair play.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 19, 2021 9:59:33 GMT
I’m mystified as to what job we’re asking from the full backs. If we’re going to be stodgy in the middle then the full backs have to fly forward when we’re on the front foot, but they haven’t done that so far. If the plan is to just tack on a quality attack to a nuts and bolts base, that isn’t going to work. I actually thought Pickford played well last night. Made some good saves and played at least one peach of a ball to create a good attacking situation for us. In every sense, when in possession and looking to attack, it was clear there had been no planning. Players were occupying the same spaces, running into each other. The prep for this tournament was poor, he doesn't know his best side, and that confusion translated into a performance that looked lethargic, but was probably more to do with the lack of a plan. England have a superb array of attacking talent and could do real damage here. But Southgate has decided that against decent sides, if you can call Croatia that, he is going to strangle games and grind them down. It might work to an extent but not against Portugal, France, Belgium. He's got no plan for going for the jugular. Hence yes, the two excellent full backs we have didn't know when to attack, didn't link well with Foden and sterling. Awful. Shite
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mr
Youth Player
Posts: 422
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Post by mr on Jun 19, 2021 10:01:02 GMT
I’m still mystified as to what that was last night, massive game against inferior opposition (on paper). Prior to the game I said that Scotland’s only change of getting something out of the game was by them kicking lumps out of us, Mcginns tackle on Kane in the first few minutes went remarkably unpunished then Scotland pretty much had us sussed out, two sitting midfielders protecting our CB’s with plenty of space from our forward line. Our approach was to get the ball to Sterling who stopped looked up, passed it back to Shaw, who passed it to Rice, who passed it to Mings, who passed it to Pickford, ample time for Scotland to slowly press forward. We are screaming out for a CM who can take control and open up things not the likes of Sterling stop, starting. Kane’s been shit so far but given the tactics that Southgate has adopted so far we’ll never create chances for him. Drop Rice or Phillips, they're the same player. Get Bellingham in.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 19, 2021 10:15:05 GMT
I’m still mystified as to what that was last night, massive game against inferior opposition (on paper). Prior to the game I said that Scotland’s only change of getting something out of the game was by them kicking lumps out of us, Mcginns tackle on Kane in the first few minutes went remarkably unpunished then Scotland pretty much had us sussed out, two sitting midfielders protecting our CB’s with plenty of space from our forward line. Our approach was to get the ball to Sterling who stopped looked up, passed it back to Shaw, who passed it to Rice, who passed it to Mings, who passed it to Pickford, ample time for Scotland to slowly press forward. We are screaming out for a CM who can take control and open up things not the likes of Sterling stop, starting. Kane’s been shit so far but given the tactics that Southgate has adopted so far we’ll never create chances for him. Drop Rice or Phillips, they're the same player. Get Bellingham in. Yeah I would too. It's a shame, we could have just been practicing with a simple 4-3-3 this last year or two, a system similar to Italy would suit us, but we have no clear plan going into this, so he'll focus on being cautious which doesn't look good when you play a lesser team
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Post by hardcastle on Jun 19, 2021 10:36:04 GMT
One upside of England's muted start to the tournement is to dampen the tabloid-encouraged jingoism that always seems to attach itself to these events. That said,there's no doubt that we have some pretty exciting attacking talent between Grealish, Mount, Sterling and Foden, it's just a case of getting the whole to match the sum of the parts.
Give Kane a game off to recharch his batteries and bring in DCL with Grealish and Sterling either side. Bring back our two most progressive full backs Trippier and the Chelsea lad on the left. Mount in the middle to give a measure of control for our back four alongside Bellingham with Rice patrolling behind.
It could all be a cheeky plan to get us finishing runner up in the group !
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Post by iglugluk on Jun 19, 2021 10:37:58 GMT
England's approach reminded me of many of our recent performances. Alot of slow passing around with little to no penetration and a general lack an attacking plan. All topped off by the fact our team were significantly more expensive and highly paid players than those available to the opposition!
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Post by RAF on Jun 19, 2021 10:40:47 GMT
I’m still mystified as to what that was last night, massive game against inferior opposition (on paper). Prior to the game I said that Scotland’s only change of getting something out of the game was by them kicking lumps out of us, Mcginns tackle on Kane in the first few minutes went remarkably unpunished then Scotland pretty much had us sussed out, two sitting midfielders protecting our CB’s with plenty of space from our forward line. Our approach was to get the ball to Sterling who stopped looked up, passed it back to Shaw, who passed it to Rice, who passed it to Mings, who passed it to Pickford, ample time for Scotland to slowly press forward. We are screaming out for a CM who can take control and open up things not the likes of Sterling stop, starting. Kane’s been shit so far but given the tactics that Southgate has adopted so far we’ll never create chances for him. Drop Rice or Phillips, they're the same player. Get Bellingham in. Yes, but expect Henderson though. H
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Post by tqstokie on Jun 19, 2021 10:46:03 GMT
I think he made a huge selection bollock by not picking Ward Prowse. Mason Mount could not beat the first man and his delivery was rubbish. Scotlands corners were a danger every time. Shaw and James are not the answer at fullback. James spent more time passing backwards than forwards. Gone are the days when passing back to the goalkeeper was met with derision and considered the very last option. The rules were actually changed to make passing back to the goalkeeper more difficult.
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Post by serpico on Jun 19, 2021 10:47:40 GMT
why are people surprised we were wank ? we've been wank for a very long time, we only ever progress in tournaments if we get an easy run, its not southgates fault per-se, we're just not very good, couple this with the fact our domestic league is very demanding then its no surprise we show up at tournament after tournament putting in sub par turgid performances. sure, southgate isn't a great manager, if he left the England job he'd probably struggle to get a premiership job, certainly non of the top 4 would touch him, but we've had one of the the best managers in world football (Capello) in charge and still we were wank so its not the manager thats the problem. we're better than the likes of Swedens and Denmarks but nowhere near as good as the likes of France, Italy, Portugal or Germany. We are capable of good stuff though. We showed that in the opening 20 minutes against Croatia, we have perhaps our most exciting collection of attacking talent since about France 98. I get that Scotland were always going to be up for it and organised but in both games so far Southgate’s substitutions have actively weakened us. Why is he so terrified of having Foden and Grealish on the pitch at the same time? Why is Sancho, excellent form for his club, an unused afterthought while Sterling has to apparently play every second of every game? Why was Rashford brought on as a centre forward when that isn’t really his game these days? Its the same at every tournament though, theres always a player on the bench who everyone thinks should play but then when he does it doesn't make any difference, every tournament we hear "he should have played [insert name]" " his substitutions are wank" etc etc etc but imo its not the manager thats the problem (even though i don't rate him) as i said in my original post, its a combination of the players not being as good as we/they think they are and the English premier league being much more physically demanding than other leagues so by the time a tournament comes round they're too knackered to perform.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 19, 2021 10:49:10 GMT
One upside of England's muted start to the tournement is to dampen the tabloid-encouraged jingoism that always seems to attach itself to these events. That said,there's no doubt that we have some pretty exciting attacking talent between Grealish, Mount, Sterling and Foden, it's just a case of getting the whole to match the sum of the parts. Give Kane a game off to recharch his batteries and bring in DCL with Grealish and Sterling either side. Bring back our two most progressive full backs Trippier and the Chelsea lad on the left. Mount in the middle to give a measure of control for our back four alongside Bellingham with Rice patrolling behind. It could all be a cheeky plan to get us finishing runner up in the group ! The expectations are illogical. There is an unrealistic sense of self entitlement as usual. It's an English disease that sees us falling flat on our faces. 4 points from 2 games is not a disastrous start. A top 8 finish would be about right for this set of players and set up. We have talent but so do quite a few teams in this tournament. We don't have any world class players in the squad like De Bruyne, Kante, Ronaldo or Mbappe. I don't think Kane anywhere near as good as Lukaku for example, I'd say we don't even have a player as talented as Arnautovic, players who change a game. Foden is the nearest but he is still developing and still hit and miss. We don't have any top class defenders and that's the reason why he's playing 2 defensive midfielders.
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Post by zerps on Jun 19, 2021 10:50:58 GMT
Drop Rice or Phillips, they're the same player. Get Bellingham in. Yeah I would too. It's a shame, we could have just been practicing with a simple 4-3-3 this last year or two, a system similar to Italy would suit us, but we have no clear plan going into this, so he'll focus on being cautious which doesn't look good when you play a lesser team Yep, then we’ll play someone half decent and they’ll tear us a new one as we try and pass backwards for the win
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Post by AlliG on Jun 19, 2021 10:59:19 GMT
I hope someone remembered to wake up the Scottish keeper at the end. He might have caught pneumonia if he was allowed to sleep out all night in that rain. Even Gordon Marshall could have kept a clean sheet for Scotland yesterday.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 19, 2021 11:00:38 GMT
We are capable of good stuff though. We showed that in the opening 20 minutes against Croatia, we have perhaps our most exciting collection of attacking talent since about France 98. I get that Scotland were always going to be up for it and organised but in both games so far Southgate’s substitutions have actively weakened us. Why is he so terrified of having Foden and Grealish on the pitch at the same time? Why is Sancho, excellent form for his club, an unused afterthought while Sterling has to apparently play every second of every game? Why was Rashford brought on as a centre forward when that isn’t really his game these days? Its the same at every tournament though, theres always a player on the bench who everyone thinks should play but then when he does it doesn't make any difference, every tournament we hear "he should have played [insert name]" " his substitutions are wank" etc etc etc but imo its not the manager thats the problem (even though i don't rate him) as i said in my original post, its a combination of the players not being as good as we/they think they are and the English premier league being much more physically demanding than other leagues so by the time a tournament comes round they're too knackered to perform. Good points. Plus most of the best players in the Premier League are not English. Even the better one's depend on outstanding foreign players. For example, Kane doesn't have a Son, Foden does not have a De Bruyne, Mount doesn't have a Kante at international level
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 19, 2021 11:01:43 GMT
I hope someone remembered to wake up the Scottish keeper at the end. He might have caught pneumonia if he was allowed to sleep out all night in that rain. Even Gordon Marshall could have kept a clean sheet for Scotland yesterday. He needed a rest after the Czech game, let's face it. Nice of us to oblige.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jun 19, 2021 11:08:47 GMT
One upside of England's muted start to the tournement is to dampen the tabloid-encouraged jingoism that always seems to attach itself to these events. That said,there's no doubt that we have some pretty exciting attacking talent between Grealish, Mount, Sterling and Foden, it's just a case of getting the whole to match the sum of the parts. Give Kane a game off to recharch his batteries and bring in DCL with Grealish and Sterling either side. Bring back our two most progressive full backs Trippier and the Chelsea lad on the left. Mount in the middle to give a measure of control for our back four alongside Bellingham with Rice patrolling behind. It could all be a cheeky plan to get us finishing runner up in the group ! The expectations are illogical. There is an unrealistic sense of self entitlement as usual. It's an English disease that sees us falling flat on our faces. 4 points from 2 games is not a disastrous start. A top 8 finish would be about right for this set of players and set up. We have talent but so do quite a few teams in this tournament. We don't have any world class players in the squad like De Bruyne, Kante, Ronaldo or Mbappe. I don't think Kane anywhere near as good as Lukaku for example, I'd say we don't even have a player as talented as Arnautovic, players who change a game. Foden is the nearest but he is still developing and still hit and miss. We don't have any top class defenders and that's the reason why he's playing 2 defensive midfielders. Is it really that unrealistic? I know what you mean by the 'English disease' but for this tournament look around you - a lot of nations are either in transition or have key players missing. It's not the strongest field. The most complete squad is easily France followed by Belgium (who are not that strong defensively) - but Germany are old, Italy and Spain in rebuild, Croatia past it and Netherlands missing Van Dijk with Southamptons old reserve keeper at the back and managed by a bloke sacked from Palace after 8 games. Against that the England squad ought to be thinking ambitiously - and coached by someone like Tuchel or Klopp could possibly go all the way.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 19, 2021 11:10:26 GMT
We are capable of good stuff though. We showed that in the opening 20 minutes against Croatia, we have perhaps our most exciting collection of attacking talent since about France 98. I get that Scotland were always going to be up for it and organised but in both games so far Southgate’s substitutions have actively weakened us. Why is he so terrified of having Foden and Grealish on the pitch at the same time? Why is Sancho, excellent form for his club, an unused afterthought while Sterling has to apparently play every second of every game? Why was Rashford brought on as a centre forward when that isn’t really his game these days? Its the same at every tournament though, theres always a player on the bench who everyone thinks should play but then when he does it doesn't make any difference, every tournament we hear "he should have played [insert name]" " his substitutions are wank" etc etc etc but imo its not the manager thats the problem (even though i don't rate him) as i said in my original post, its a combination of the players not being as good as we/they think they are and the English premier league being much more physically demanding than other leagues so by the time a tournament comes round they're too knackered to perform. I think those are both factors definitely, though we shouldn't forget that a fair number of the stars of the other favourites play their football in England as well. There are all the long standing issues with English football that put us at a disadvantage - the ingrained aversion to 'thinking' being one of them. The attacking players we have I think you could put up against pretty much anyone in the tournament. Possibly the full backs too. We're weak in other areas. I think a shrewder, less timid manager would have been able to get us to create some chances in open play though.
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Post by moon on Jun 19, 2021 11:11:23 GMT
Thought Phillips was absolute cack. Scotland at home and we played for a fucking point. Embarrassing. What was so bad about Phillips? I thought he did his job fine. For me the problem was playing both him and Rice when we clearly needed a more attacking option. Kane doesn’t help matters for us up front, he is clearly a quality player when playing for Tottenham but he hasn’t shown it for England recently. I can’t imagine Guardiola signing him up if that’s all he has to offer playing alongside Sterling and Foden, it’s not all on Kane though, in the final third we were devoid of ideas. Southgate is a nice guy but I’m not convinced we are ever going to progress with him, we had a great run at the World Cup but in fairness we had the easiest path we could’ve hoped for. If there is one thing he has done well it is to pick players from a wide variety of teams, we have quite a few in the squad who were plying their trade in the championship not too long ago. Those before him always preferred players from the top 4 regardless of their form or whether they played regularly.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 19, 2021 11:12:51 GMT
One upside of England's muted start to the tournement is to dampen the tabloid-encouraged jingoism that always seems to attach itself to these events. That said,there's no doubt that we have some pretty exciting attacking talent between Grealish, Mount, Sterling and Foden, it's just a case of getting the whole to match the sum of the parts. Give Kane a game off to recharch his batteries and bring in DCL with Grealish and Sterling either side. Bring back our two most progressive full backs Trippier and the Chelsea lad on the left. Mount in the middle to give a measure of control for our back four alongside Bellingham with Rice patrolling behind. It could all be a cheeky plan to get us finishing runner up in the group ! The expectations are illogical. There is an unrealistic sense of self entitlement as usual. It's an English disease that sees us falling flat on our faces. 4 points from 2 games is not a disastrous start. A top 8 finish would be about right for this set of players and set up. We have talent but so do quite a few teams in this tournament. We don't have any world class players in the squad like De Bruyne, Kante, Ronaldo or Mbappe. I don't think Kane anywhere near as good as Lukaku for example, I'd say we don't even have a player as talented as Arnautovic, players who change a game. Foden is the nearest but he is still developing and still hit and miss. We don't have any top class defenders and that's the reason why he's playing 2 defensive midfielders. It's the manner of the performances though. We're not a France or an Italy, that's for sure, and I suspect we're not even a Spain or a Germany or a Portugal. But we should with the players we have be capable of doing more than shuffling the ball sideways nervously to each other for three hours. That's basically what we've done so far. A team with Grealish, Foden, Sterling, Kane, Mount and Sancho at its disposal should be able to create chances.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 19, 2021 11:30:25 GMT
The expectations are illogical. There is an unrealistic sense of self entitlement as usual. It's an English disease that sees us falling flat on our faces. 4 points from 2 games is not a disastrous start. A top 8 finish would be about right for this set of players and set up. We have talent but so do quite a few teams in this tournament. We don't have any world class players in the squad like De Bruyne, Kante, Ronaldo or Mbappe. I don't think Kane anywhere near as good as Lukaku for example, I'd say we don't even have a player as talented as Arnautovic, players who change a game. Foden is the nearest but he is still developing and still hit and miss. We don't have any top class defenders and that's the reason why he's playing 2 defensive midfielders. Is it really that unrealistic? I know what you mean by the 'English disease' but for this tournament look around you - a lot of nations are either in transition or have key players missing. It's not the strongest field. The most complete squad is easily France followed by Belgium (who are not that strong defensively) - but Germany are old, Italy and Spain in rebuild, Croatia past it and Netherlands missing Van Dijk with Southamptons old reserve keeper at the back and managed by a bloke sacked from Palace after 8 games. Against that the England squad ought to be thinking ambitiously - and coached by someone like Tuchel or Klopp could possibly go all the way. Just don't see any world class players in the squad, and I think you need them in tournaments unless you are very organised and have a system that players are used to playing. I think we could be better with a team who are used to playing with each other regularly but they look like a group of strangers so far. But I agree Germany and Spain are no better. Spain can hold the ball better but look like they are allergic to scoring goals. England definitely need to be less cautious and go for it a bit more, let these young players learn the hard way if need be. Souness got it spot on, you are not going anywhere in an international tournament with 2 holding/defensive midfielders who are not even that good. England were getting giddy after the first game but I thought Modric ran the midfield for the most part, its just that Croatia had zero attacking options and too many poor players generally and home advantage helped England there too. I partly blame the hysteria on Shearer, Lampard and Ferdinand bigging England up relentlessly in that first game when we were very average and just about got over the line.
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Post by musik on Jun 19, 2021 11:41:58 GMT
Who won the official Man of the Match award there?
In the TV studio in Sweden among the host's journalist, referee and two ex footballers it was STERLING who got it unofficially, closely followed by Kane.
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Post by damagedswan on Jun 19, 2021 11:47:34 GMT
Who won the official Man of the Match award there? In the TV studio in Sweden among the host's journalist, referee and two ex footballers it was STERLING who got it unofficially, closely followed by Kane. Billy Gilmour.
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Post by musik on Jun 19, 2021 11:50:52 GMT
Who won the official Man of the Match award there? In the TV studio in Sweden among the host's journalist, referee and two ex footballers it was STERLING who got it unofficially, closely followed by Kane. Billy Gilmour. Thanks!
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Post by thehoof on Jun 19, 2021 12:30:42 GMT
We are capable of good stuff though. We showed that in the opening 20 minutes against Croatia, we have perhaps our most exciting collection of attacking talent since about France 98. I get that Scotland were always going to be up for it and organised but in both games so far Southgate’s substitutions have actively weakened us. Why is he so terrified of having Foden and Grealish on the pitch at the same time? Why is Sancho, excellent form for his club, an unused afterthought while Sterling has to apparently play every second of every game? Why was Rashford brought on as a centre forward when that isn’t really his game these days? Its the same at every tournament though, theres always a player on the bench who everyone thinks should play but then when he does it doesn't make any difference, every tournament we hear "he should have played [insert name]" " his substitutions are wank" etc etc etc but imo its not the manager thats the problem (even though i don't rate him) as i said in my original post, its a combination of the players not being as good as we/they think they are and the English premier league being much more physically demanding than other leagues so by the time a tournament comes round they're too knackered to perform. Half of the Belgian team and the Scotland side play in the Premier League must just be the English lads who can’t hack it.
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Post by thestatusquo on Jun 19, 2021 12:53:45 GMT
It was frightened football at its worst and the epitome of how Southgate comes across as a person. Dull, devoid of flair and imagination. We’ll get through but go out to the first decent team we meet.
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Post by kustokie on Jun 19, 2021 13:31:58 GMT
We should beaten Scotland with just about any set up, if the players understood what it was, which they clearly didn’t. It was set up to,allow Foden and Sterling to stay wide and get behind Scotland’s wingbacks, stretching their back three with England’s full backs bombing up and down. James is supposed to have pace and is left footed, which made more sense than playing a right footed left back. But they clearly didn’t understand the system, which might mean they didn’t work on it in training. Sterling and Foden were all over the pitch and I have no idea what Kane was supposed to be doing, but at least he didn’t take any corners. Hopefully, this was a big wake up call for the players and the coaches. If we don’t make it to the next round, it doesn’t bode well for the world qualifiers. We have the most talented group of players we have had in a long time, but their teamwork is poor. That’s down to the manager and the coaching staff. That was arguably our best line up, with the exception of Mount instead of Grealish. From his demeanor, Southgate is clearly a thinker (maybe he overthinks things) but he doesn’t seem to be able to communicate his thinking to the players. All good managers are students of the game but only the best can translate their thinking into action. Ferguson and Kruyff were some of the best examples of that.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Jun 19, 2021 16:05:43 GMT
If Southgate & MON swapped jobs,would England & Stoke notice the differance?lol.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 19, 2021 16:16:27 GMT
I’m mystified as to what job we’re asking from the full backs. If we’re going to be stodgy in the middle then the full backs have to fly forward when we’re on the front foot, but they haven’t done that so far. If the plan is to just tack on a quality attack to a nuts and bolts base, that isn’t going to work. I actually thought Pickford played well last night. Made some good saves and played at least one peach of a ball to create a good attacking situation for us. Pickford is a very rare type of English footballer who looks infinitely better in an international shirt than a club shirt.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 16:21:50 GMT
Italy = pride Portugal = pride Even Scotland = pride Stuart Pearce , Tony Adams ,Alan shearer = pride This a lot , from the manager down , is a load of chat about inclusivity , school dinners , BLM , political gesturing blah blah and no pride on the pitch Can you imagine Stuart Pearce , Tony Adams, Alan shearer and co being bullied out of the game by the Scots . No chance . What a ridiculous thing to say. How does supporting feeding children, driving for equality and being inclusive a bad thing or affect the way they play football. If anything I am more proud of this team because of the work they do off the pitch. They are a quality bunch of players and we should get behind them. The manager just got it wrong yesterday . We move on They weren't quality v Scotland , they bottled it If you look at Alan shearer's analysis, which is fair , time and again , when the pass was on, they bottled it ... www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/57540281As for Southgates views on inclusiveness , racism etc , we simply don't need to know what they are , it's completely totally irrelevant to the game He is a football manager. All Southgate has to do , is get the players to go out there and give it there all , and they didn't , they went out there and they bottled it
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 19, 2021 16:25:09 GMT
I’m mystified as to what job we’re asking from the full backs. If we’re going to be stodgy in the middle then the full backs have to fly forward when we’re on the front foot, but they haven’t done that so far. If the plan is to just tack on a quality attack to a nuts and bolts base, that isn’t going to work. I actually thought Pickford played well last night. Made some good saves and played at least one peach of a ball to create a good attacking situation for us. Pickford is a very rare type of English footballer who looks infinitely better in an international shirt than a club shirt. Michael Owen syndrome.
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