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Post by zerps on Jun 8, 2021 19:20:05 GMT
People aren’t booing players for making a stand against racism They are booing players that they believe are showing support for a racist Marxist organisation who want to subjugate the very people who are being asked not to boo Are they showing support for Black Lives matter? Taking the knee started in American Football as a stand against racism by one or two players. The action was later adopted by Black Lives Matter. But that doesn't mean that taking the knee automatically means support of Black Lives Matter. I've always liked the George Cross. I liked it years before the BNP and other far right organisations decided they liked it. If I now wave a George Cross during the Euros, it doesn't mean I am in any way supporting any of the far right organisations who have since adopted it. I'm well to the left of centre - but I'll be buggered if I am going to give up liking a flag just because some right wing nutters also like it. It was actually started by House Stark I think. The Bolton’s refused to bend the knee to the Stark’s but didn’t have much choice in the end. Definitely a good thing because the Bolton’s were cunts. I’m still not sure what it’s got to do with football though?!
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Post by thfc67 on Jun 8, 2021 19:22:01 GMT
He's not being paid for "standing up for decency and being a statesman", he's a football coach. Leave the politics to the politicians. 🤣 Football is politics. This strand of thought is the latest one adopted by the knuckle draggers to justify racism I suppose "Football is politics." OK. Let's have all the teams taking a knee for all the Palestinian children murdered by Israel. Then they can take a knee for all the Uighurs being killed by China. Then they can...
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 8, 2021 19:25:49 GMT
🤣 Football is politics. This strand of thought is the latest one adopted by the knuckle draggers to justify racism I suppose "Football is politics." OK. Let's have all the teams taking a knee for all the Palestinian children murdered by Israel. Then they can take a knee for all the Uighurs being killed by China. Then they can... No idea what you mean by this mate
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 8, 2021 19:27:05 GMT
🤣 Football is politics. This strand of thought is the latest one adopted by the knuckle draggers to justify racism I suppose "Football is politics." OK. Let's have all the teams taking a knee for all the Palestinian children murdered by Israel. Then they can take a knee for all the Uighurs being killed by China. Then they can... Well if they want to make a political gesture they could refuse to play in a country that considerers homosexuality a crime I shan’t hold my breath waiting for the mass boycott of Qatar I will happily support such action
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 8, 2021 19:28:23 GMT
I don’t think Waga would boo anything, once again the big brush is out tarring everyone who has a different opinion to the woke brigade. Have you not read the thread? It's an argument which is totally senseless and is being universally used by people who are insulted by a harmless gesture in favor of something that just cannot be argued against. As if those idiots booing have a clue what Marxism is about. Jesus Christ. You boo that, it's simple, you're racist Of course I've read the thread And I've asked him if HE would boo. I'm sure he can answer. I'm sure as a decent person he WOULDN'T boo It’s ace how things are dead simple like this isn’t it, you get to feel all pleased about what a good person you are without having to actually think about anything in any real depth. Winner.
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Post by zerps on Jun 8, 2021 19:29:00 GMT
"Football is politics." OK. Let's have all the teams taking a knee for all the Palestinian children murdered by Israel. Then they can take a knee for all the Uighurs being killed by China. Then they can... No idea what you mean by this mate Meaning - much worse things are happening in the world than “blm” but the political force behind it has made it eclipse reality. It’s covid’s best pal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 19:36:12 GMT
Question
Do the anti-kneeling posters in this thread believe that the England footballers are taking a knee for their solidarity with the BLM movement?
I'd like, if possible, some justified criticism of Marxism too. Feels like a word chucked into critiques of taking the knee, but without any real understanding or appreciation of it at all.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 8, 2021 19:36:51 GMT
"Football is politics." OK. Let's have all the teams taking a knee for all the Palestinian children murdered by Israel. Then they can take a knee for all the Uighurs being killed by China. Then they can... No idea what you mean by this mate Probably because you’re so blinkered to what’s going on around the world
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 8, 2021 19:44:04 GMT
Did you actually read what he wrote? Which bits of that specifically would you take issue with? And being an international manager does involve a degree of statesmanship. I take issue with the whole of it. It is a total PR exercise, nothing else, written not by Southgate but someone else; coordinated by the FA, who are worried about the booing of the knee. I find the whole of it quite sickening, we're playing a football tournament, not goingn to war. But, despite all the changes in modern football, what cannot be questioned about the current generation of England players is their pride in representing this country.
This idea that some players don’t know what it means to play for England — or don’t care — has become something of a false narrative.
You don’t need to dig deep to realise that. Yeah, like Foden and Mason trying to smuggle two whores into their hotel in Iceland last September? How do you know it wasn't written by Southgate? That certainly seems like something he'd do to me. It isn't just about the knee is it? The statement is appealing for unity and decency across the board, on all sides. Why is that unreasonable? No condoning Mason and Foden's actions but young men do make mistakes. Presumably Spurs have had a succession of saints turn out for them over the years?
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 8, 2021 19:45:33 GMT
Question Do the anti-kneeling posters in this thread believe that the England footballers are taking a knee for their solidarity with the BLM movement? I'd like, if possible, some justified criticism of Marxism too. Feels like a word chucked into critiques of taking the knee, but without any real understanding or appreciation of it at all. The footballers are doing it for various virtuous reasons and in good faith, I expect. It’s not going to magic away what the gesture itself represents and has intractable links to. Forget Marxism, it’s about a characterisation of our society, i.e. the public, i.e. the crowd, which many people justifiably find objectionable. Edit, incidentally I have no problem with the letter, I liked it in the main. So we should probably try and stick to that topic rather than derail the thread into the knee and BLM and Marxism (apols)
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 8, 2021 19:54:09 GMT
It's an argument which is totally senseless and is being universally used by people who are insulted by a harmless gesture in favor of something that just cannot be argued against. As if those idiots booing have a clue what Marxism is about. Jesus Christ. You boo that, it's simple, you're racist Of course I've read the thread And I've asked him if HE would boo. I'm sure he can answer. I'm sure as a decent person he WOULDN'T boo It’s ace how things are dead simple like this isn’t it, you get to feel all pleased about what a good person you are without having to actually think about anything in any real depth. Winner. But it really is simple though. Really really simple. The people who are taking the knee have said why they are doing it. It lasts a few seconds. Why would anyone be offended by it and choose to boo a simple brief gesture in support of racial equality?
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Post by Clem Fandango on Jun 8, 2021 19:55:16 GMT
Always liked southgate. Comes across as a thoroughly decent bloke and I’m sure he’d actually be good company over a pint. I don’t think he’s done much wrong as England manager.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 8, 2021 19:58:00 GMT
No idea what you mean by this mate Probably because you’re so blinkered to what’s going on around the world Not at all. I'm an open minded person. I hate intolerance, I hate prejudice. Booing other people because they are taking the knee, for a few seconds, is just blind intolerance and I haven't seen a sensible comment from you in this thread rather than attacking me.. By all means let me know what his original point was because I'm fucked if I know
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 8, 2021 20:02:46 GMT
It’s ace how things are dead simple like this isn’t it, you get to feel all pleased about what a good person you are without having to actually think about anything in any real depth. Winner. But it really is simple though. Really really simple. The people who are taking the knee have said why they are doing it. It lasts a few seconds. Why would anyone be offended by it and choose to boo a simple brief gesture in support of racial equality? Because they believe - correctly - that regardless of the players’ intentions, the gesture itself is inextricably linked to a political movement that they find extreme, disingenuous and wrong. Actually it is quite simple now you mention it And this really should be on the EE thread so I won’t comment more about it now. The letter is good.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 8, 2021 20:07:51 GMT
🤣 Football is politics. This strand of thought is the latest one adopted by the knuckle draggers to justify racism I suppose "Football is politics." OK. Let's have all the teams taking a knee for all the Palestinian children murdered by Israel. Then they can take a knee for all the Uighurs being killed by China. Then they can... Well said! For heavens sake, football is football! I don't give a flying toot if James McClean has x political view, if Tyrese Campbell supports y movement or if Charlie Adam is a secret WWE fan! I don't expect to have religion, politics, race, nationality or Covid stuffed down my throat when I want to be entertained. Absolutely, any form of bigotry and abuse is unacceptable, and anyone engaging in such behaviour needs to have stiff consequences that are swiftly and consistently applied regardless of the ethnicity, nationality, political leaning, religion, age. sex or whatever grouping is performing the abuse. But give me a break! In what world is it ok for people who have spent huge amounts to watch a game, movie, show, educational offering or whatever to be subjected to a display of the performers currently held beliefs? In most cases they happen to be blessed with a particular talent/skill but not with exceptional intelligence (and even if they were, they still aren't in the business of unsolicited evangelizing of their own beliefs), and or wide ranging experience.
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Post by soulsurvivor on Jun 8, 2021 20:11:01 GMT
Taking the knee was initially to show support to BLM, all decent folk were outraged and it was a great gesture from around the world. We in GB are so tolerant but as always seems to happen a simple gesture gets hijacked, it gets flogged to death then the ordinary tolerant people realise that it no longer means support it starts to elevate the black movement above equal. That is why I dont agree because it is no longer spontaneous it is no longer saying enough we are now in a situation where we can't say stop it for now and are judged as the minority. We did it, supported it, it was a powerful message now stop telling us how to behave or think as the majority of ordinary folk, the sent majority want to move on
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Post by loyalstripey on Jun 8, 2021 20:13:06 GMT
Well, I know these issues understandably create a lot of emotion from all corners..... but for me, wow, what a statement from our national manager.
He's articulate, thoughtful, educated and do you know what.... I'd really respect him if he was my manager, both for what he's done as a professional and what he stands for as a person. I'd want to play my heart out for someone who cares as much as he appears to.
Great words Gareth, no over to you lads.... doo eet for England!! Just doo eet!!
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 8, 2021 20:21:50 GMT
But it really is simple though. Really really simple. The people who are taking the knee have said why they are doing it. It lasts a few seconds. Why would anyone be offended by it and choose to boo a simple brief gesture in support of racial equality? Because they believe - correctly - that regardless of the players’ intentions, the gesture itself is inextricably linked to a political movement that they find extreme, disingenuous and wrong. Actually it is quite simple now you mention it And this really should be on the EE thread so I won’t comment more about it now. The letter is good. I think it's more about linking it to the BLM movement to give them an excuse to take offence at a very simple gesture, because really, they don't feel comfortable with the concept of racial equality. I'll leave it there too. I also really liked the letter
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Post by kidcrewbob on Jun 8, 2021 20:35:21 GMT
A profound and powerful message and I don't think anyone could doubt the sincerity of Southgate's intentions to galvanise the country ahead of the competition. Similarly his condemnation of the racist abuse of players online (or off for that matter) is heartfelt and reflective of the opinions of 99.99% of all decent citizens (not just football fans) who find it abhorrent, disgusting and unacceptable in every way shape or form. There is a "but" for me though. The ongoing "taking the knee" gesture that was borne out of the raw emotion generated across the globe by a single, highly violent and controversial incident in the cesspit that is the US, has departed from that initial demonstration of outrage and is clearly (and ironically) starting to divide those who see it as having now metamorphisised to a more political, agenda-driven vehicle far removed from those original simple intentions of utter condemnation. Indeed, it had great impact and was very successful in creating a reaction and for the perpetrators, swift and some might say pretty brutal justice, but I fear for where this is now leading - are we / they saying that it's going to continue in perpetuity? - could it? should it? Are all Euro teams left to decide whether they do or don't TTK, what happens if some do and some don't? - will they be booed - who will be booing who and who will have their cards marked on & off the pitch if they do / don't? What happens next season in the Prem, EFL and beyonds ad infenitum....... It seems that the continual pushing of line that if you don't support TTK or express any alernate viewpoint or outward signs of disagreement that each and every match needs to incorporte the ritual then "you are by definition a racist" I fear for the future of the game. If Les Ferdinand can see that it's run it's course and had it's impact then why can't other moderate people in the game ? Perhaps because Les Ferdinand does not represent the majority opinion amongst moderate people in English football? I'm not saying Ferdinand is wrong or that those who take the knee are right - just pointing out that people do have differing opinions even when they are basically on the same side. That's why I personally think booing taking the knee is wrong. It should be possible for a sportsman to express an honestly held opinion without being booed for it - I wouldn't dream of booing Les Ferdinand because he happens to have a different opinion on making a stand against racism than I do.. That’s fair comment Lakes but are we saying that it should carry on for ever then and that the rules of kick-off should be changed to accommodate it ? Is there an end game here - what about when there’s a death at the club - we have the minutes silence / applause then the knee-take and then the game?
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 8, 2021 20:54:29 GMT
Perhaps because Les Ferdinand does not represent the majority opinion amongst moderate people in English football? I'm not saying Ferdinand is wrong or that those who take the knee are right - just pointing out that people do have differing opinions even when they are basically on the same side. That's why I personally think booing taking the knee is wrong. It should be possible for a sportsman to express an honestly held opinion without being booed for it - I wouldn't dream of booing Les Ferdinand because he happens to have a different opinion on making a stand against racism than I do.. That’s fair comment Lakes but are we saying that it should carry on for ever then and that the rules of kick-off should be changed to accommodate it ? Is there an end game here - what about when there’s a death at the club - we have the minutes silence / applause then the knee-take and then the game? The initial links to BLM and the whole knee bending hoohaa in America have stained this just cause of anti racism beyond repair. To continue to double down with this rhetoric that we will keep doing it to make a stand against racists is completely and wilfully misunderstanding the reality of British society. Not all people who boo are racists. And if these oh so virtuous lovers of harmony and racial inequality really did want to stop the current divide they would compromise and come up with a different positive gesture that all anti racists could get behind. But no keep doubling down and keep heating that pot. This sadly will not end well and BLM will love it.
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Post by christhepotter on Jun 8, 2021 20:56:57 GMT
People aren’t booing players for making a stand against racism They are booing players that they believe are showing support for a racist Marxist organisation who want to subjugate the very people who are being asked not to boo Exactly this ..
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 8, 2021 21:00:17 GMT
Perhaps because Les Ferdinand does not represent the majority opinion amongst moderate people in English football? I'm not saying Ferdinand is wrong or that those who take the knee are right - just pointing out that people do have differing opinions even when they are basically on the same side. That's why I personally think booing taking the knee is wrong. It should be possible for a sportsman to express an honestly held opinion without being booed for it - I wouldn't dream of booing Les Ferdinand because he happens to have a different opinion on making a stand against racism than I do.. That’s fair comment Lakes but are we saying that it should carry on for ever then and that the rules of kick-off should be changed to accommodate it ? Is there an end game here - what about when there’s a death at the club - we have the minutes silence / applause then the knee-take and then the game? I haven't really got an opinion on how long it should last. I guess it is up to the people doing it and the football authorities, as to how long they continue to do it. There are lots of things which do bother me, but sportsmen kneeling for, what, 10 seconds before kick off (less than the time it takes to take a throw in!!!!) isn't at the top of my priorities so they can continue to do it for as long as they feel it helps. As I have aged I have got more tolerant - sorry!
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 8, 2021 21:06:30 GMT
That’s fair comment Lakes but are we saying that it should carry on for ever then and that the rules of kick-off should be changed to accommodate it ? Is there an end game here - what about when there’s a death at the club - we have the minutes silence / applause then the knee-take and then the game? I haven't really got an opinion on how long it should last. I guess it is up to the people doing it and the football authorities, as to how long they continue to do it. There are lots of things which do bother me, but sportsmen kneeling for, what, 10 seconds before kick off (less than the time it takes to take a throw in!!!!) isn't at the top of my priorities so they can continue to do it for as long as they feel it helps. As I have aged I have got more tolerant - sorry! But it isn't helping though is it. There is a very clear percentage of British society that don't like it and they are not all racists. There are much less divisive ways of doing this, why not concentrate on that? It would certainly turn the temperature down or do you want it to get to a more serious disagreement. Is this how we find the racists, when the violence begins. And all the while the real racists in society are loving it just as much as BLM will be licking their lips.
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peterpan1
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Post by peterpan1 on Jun 8, 2021 21:08:50 GMT
I still think Southgate is a fraud. Anyone can pay lip service and appear to be statesman like. Maybe leave all that to the politicians hey Gareth. His stance on the knee issue is cringe-worthy. I'll be very interested to see what the Scottish and Welsh teams do before kick off following their Rugby Union teams refusal to bend.
I'll happily eat humble pie if we ever lift some Silverware, until then Southgate has won the square root of nowt.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 8, 2021 21:11:19 GMT
I still think Southgate is a fraud. Anyone can pay lip service and appear to be statesman like. Maybe leave all that to the politicians hey Gareth. His stance on the knee issue is cringe-worthy. I'll be very interested to see what the Scottish and Welsh teams do before kick off following their Rugby Union teams refusal to bend. I'll happily eat humble pie if we ever lift some Silverware, until then Southgate has won the square root of nowt. His qualities as a manager are very much up for debate. I don’t think his qualities as a man are. Seems a top bloke.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 8, 2021 21:19:06 GMT
I haven't really got an opinion on how long it should last. I guess it is up to the people doing it and the football authorities, as to how long they continue to do it. There are lots of things which do bother me, but sportsmen kneeling for, what, 10 seconds before kick off (less than the time it takes to take a throw in!!!!) isn't at the top of my priorities so they can continue to do it for as long as they feel it helps. As I have aged I have got more tolerant - sorry! But it isn't helping though is it. There is a very clear percentage of British society that don't like it and they are not all racists. There are much less divisive ways of doing this, why not concentrate on that? It would certainly turn the temperature down or do you want it to get to a more serious disagreement. Is this how we find the racists, when the violence begins. And all the while the real racists in society are loving it just as much as BLM will be licking their lips. We live in a democracy though. So if they think taking the knee helps they have the right to continue to do it. I don't think the booing helps but I haven't tried to stop anyone booing. Racists have had a pretty easy time of it in the UK for a very long time. We even have a current Prime minister who used a phrase of slaver origin, namely, "piccaninnies with watermelon smiles" to describe black children. So the actions taken so far to try to eradicate racism in the UK haven't exactly been a resounding success, have they? If taking the knee gets up the noses of people like Boris Johnson, that's fine by me.
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peterpan1
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Post by peterpan1 on Jun 8, 2021 21:21:46 GMT
I still think Southgate is a fraud. Anyone can pay lip service and appear to be statesman like. Maybe leave all that to the politicians hey Gareth. His stance on the knee issue is cringe-worthy. I'll be very interested to see what the Scottish and Welsh teams do before kick off following their Rugby Union teams refusal to bend. I'll happily eat humble pie if we ever lift some Silverware, until then Southgate has won the square root of nowt. His qualities as a manager are very much up for debate. I don’t think his qualities as a man are. Seems a top bloke. Good point, however all my mates are top blokes. I'd rather Southgate be a complete cnut if it meant us actually winning something before I pop my cloggs.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 8, 2021 21:23:31 GMT
His qualities as a manager are very much up for debate. I don’t think his qualities as a man are. Seems a top bloke. Good point, however all my mates are top blokes. I'd rather Southgate be a complete cnut if it meant us actually winning something before I pop my cloggs. I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive.
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Post by kidcrewbob on Jun 8, 2021 21:30:17 GMT
That’s fair comment Lakes but are we saying that it should carry on for ever then and that the rules of kick-off should be changed to accommodate it ? Is there an end game here - what about when there’s a death at the club - we have the minutes silence / applause then the knee-take and then the game? I haven't really got an opinion on how long it should last. I guess it is up to the people doing it and the football authorities, as to how long they continue to do it. There are lots of things which do bother me, but sportsmen kneeling for, what, 10 seconds before kick off (less than the time it takes to take a throw in!!!!) isn't at the top of my priorities so they can continue to do it for as long as they feel it helps. As I have aged I have got more tolerant - sorry! I too have aged but conversely become increasingly irritated that one of my lifelong simple “escapes” from a sometimes shitty day to day reality has become a circus of excessive pre-match sideshows & shenanigans, with line-ups, ritual hand shaking, silences, applauses, armbands, poppies and centre cirtles of players with heads bowed if the club cat dies and now cause-driven gesture politics - I’m just pissed off that the game has been hijacked by all and sundry over the years to the point that it’s no longer the pleasure it once was. I agree that the world is a fucked up place with shit going on all over but the point was made pretty well and I think folk should be given a break from being under pressure to comply and /or risk being scrutinised and judged whether they are on message or not at a fucking game of football.... This looming competition risks becoming a contentious shit show with more focus on the booing vs clapping decibels than the games themselves - and I hate the fact that it’s come to this with fans split and divided over something that has been hitherto well supported at the outset (and rightly so) but it’s time to move on.........all IMHO
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 8, 2021 21:32:58 GMT
But it isn't helping though is it. There is a very clear percentage of British society that don't like it and they are not all racists. There are much less divisive ways of doing this, why not concentrate on that? It would certainly turn the temperature down or do you want it to get to a more serious disagreement. Is this how we find the racists, when the violence begins. And all the while the real racists in society are loving it just as much as BLM will be licking their lips. We live in a democracy though. So if they think taking the knee helps they have the right to continue to do it. I don't think the booing helps but I haven't tried to stop anyone booing. Racists have had a pretty easy time of it in the UK for a very long time. We even have a current Prime minister who used a phrase of slaver origin, namely, "piccaninnies with watermelon smiles" to describe black children. So the actions taken so far to try to eradicate racism in the UK haven't exactly been a resounding success, have they? If taking the knee gets up the noses of people like Boris Johnson, that's fine by me. So you like it because it gets up peoples noses, in particular the Prime Minister? (who I agree is a bell end) But want to ignore where it is all heading? Recipe for disaster that attitude in my opinion. But yeah lets keep doubling down to teach the unwashed football masses a lesson and risk major bother rather than come up with our own original ideas. The American knee bending import will indeed do.
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