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Post by foster on Jun 1, 2021 3:07:11 GMT
how many footballers are kneeling because they think they are making a difference and how many are doing it because its just something they do now before kick off? Or will be singled out if they don't? Or because they forgot to tie their shoe laces?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jun 1, 2021 3:48:18 GMT
Is it possible to be ambivalent either way? I dislike the idea of the booing just because of the inevitable uproar it'll cause, but the same as taking or not taking the knee I suppose it's best left to personal choice. I find it awkward to criticise either stance. I'll be taking the much missed Trevor Brooking position on the new woke MOTD.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 8:37:13 GMT
What I find disturbing is lots of people appear to be far more upset by the taking the knee than actual racism. That, and the fact it takes 10 seconds...
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Post by zerps on Jun 1, 2021 8:48:27 GMT
I boo everyone not taking the knee
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 1, 2021 9:39:08 GMT
Booing though by its very nature is a more audible reaction than clapping. If you had 100 people clapping and another 100 booing, the booing would be more prominent. At some games, whilst I have heard boos I have heard clapping too. At these games the OP refers to, was there any clapping as well?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 1, 2021 9:43:19 GMT
Booing though by its very nature is a more audible reaction than clapping. If you had 100 people clapping and another 100 booing, the booing would be more prominent. At some games, whilst I have heard boos I have heard clapping too. At these games the OP refers to, was there any clapping as well? I noticed loud clapping at the Liverpool v Palace game last week and zero booing
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jun 1, 2021 13:15:03 GMT
Is it possible to be ambivalent either way? It doesn’t bother me that much, those few seconds haven’t caused me any real pain. Then again, I don’t think it’s actually doing anything either now. I do particularly enjoy it when a player forgets and runs forward on the first whistle before scurrying back to drop to the knee.
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Post by heworksardtho on Jun 1, 2021 13:36:57 GMT
Anyone know when Momo and Crappys bans expire? Bet they’re like a pair of coiled springs! Just seen them having a beer and meal at Noah’s Ark
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 1, 2021 13:46:20 GMT
Anyone know when Momo and Crappys bans expire? Bet they’re like a pair of coiled springs! Just seen them having a beer and meal at Noah’s Ark I’d believe you if it hadn’t been shut down! Honest....😉
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Post by thebasfordhedgehog on Jun 1, 2021 14:26:13 GMT
Just seen them having a beer and meal at Noah’s Ark I’d believe you if it hadn’t been shut down! Honest....😉 I spotted them yesterday, Badger, standing next to Sir Stan’s statue. They were probably waiting for Shangs to turn up.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 3, 2021 15:45:40 GMT
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Post by phileetin on Jun 3, 2021 15:50:07 GMT
i like the brendan version
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 15:54:14 GMT
So it's the people who are sick of being called racist, and they're vocalising that by *checks notes* booing a gesture (hollow or not) in support of black footballers. Inspired.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 3, 2021 16:00:26 GMT
Thinking it is a load of bollocks is one thing. Fair enough. I get that.
Booing the players who decide to do it is quite another. I'm not convinced all those who decide to boo understand how this comes over and what it might represent. To some of these players, would it feel that much different to the throwing of bananas on the pitch? I don't know. But it doesn't feel very supportive towards players who are having to put with a barrage of shitty racist tweets after each and every game.
It's ambiguous at best.
It's also worth noting a majority of people did not boo and majorities are also important aren't they?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 16:06:14 GMT
Thinking it is a load of bollocks is one thing. Fair enough. I get that. Booing the players who decide to do it is quite another. I'm not convinced all those who decide to boo understand how this comes over and what it might represent. To some of these players, would it feel that much different to the throwing of bananas on the pitch? I don't know. But it doesn't feel very supportive towards players who are having to put with a barrage of shitty racist tweets after each and every game. It's ambiguous at best. It's also worth noting a majority of people did not boo and majorities are also important aren't they? That's the key difference isn't it. Not agreeing with it is one thing. Being motivated to boo - especially when you likely know how the players themselves could interpret it - another entirely.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 3, 2021 16:09:08 GMT
that's O'Neill playing the 'class war' card.....surprise, surprise! a very unlikely ally for some.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 3, 2021 16:20:09 GMT
Thinking it is a load of bollocks is one thing. Fair enough. I get that. Booing the players who decide to do it is quite another. I'm not convinced all those who decide to boo understand how this comes over and what it might represent. To some of these players, would it feel that much different to the throwing of bananas on the pitch? I don't know. But it doesn't feel very supportive towards players who are having to put with a barrage of shitty racist tweets after each and every game. It's ambiguous at best. It's also worth noting a majority of people did not boo and majorities are also important aren't they? i guess it’s all down to interpretation and people’s understanding of what it signifies. I’ve always said i’d be more in favour of something more unified like the whole team holding hands prior to kick off as that can only be identified positively. It’d be interesting to see people’s reaction to that. i think it’d be more positive. Rightly or wrongly some people will always link the knee to BLM as when it was first initiated that was what it signified and was something that was pushed. Personally I don’t really care about it being done as it’s become so insignificant. Id never boo it but I do think that often people will justify booing it in their head because they identify it with the likes of Sasha Johnson and what she had to say. I think its wrong to call anybody who boos racist based on a possible interpretation in their head which isn’t racist but because of their portrayed understanding and personal views on a political group that do have a nasty side. Like most things at the moment it seems like mudslinging without people having a mature conversation about their opposing views.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 16:22:07 GMT
Thinking it is a load of bollocks is one thing. Fair enough. I get that. Booing the players who decide to do it is quite another. I'm not convinced all those who decide to boo understand how this comes over and what it might represent. To some of these players, would it feel that much different to the throwing of bananas on the pitch? I don't know. But it doesn't feel very supportive towards players who are having to put with a barrage of shitty racist tweets after each and every game. It's ambiguous at best. It's also worth noting a majority of people did not boo and majorities are also important aren't they? i guess it’s all down to interpretation and people’s understanding of what it signifies. I’ve always said i’d be more in favour of something more unified like the whole team holding hands prior to kick off as that can only be identified positively. It’d be interesting to see people’s reaction to that. i think it’d be more positive. Rightly or wrongly some people will always link the knee to BLM as when it was first initiated that was what it signified and was something that was pushed. Personally I don’t really about it being done as it’s become so insignificant. Id never boo it but I do think that often people will justify booing it in their head because they identify it with the likes of Sasha Johnson and what she had to say. I think its wrong to call anybody who boos racist based on a possible interpretation in their head which isn’t racist but because of their lack. personal views on a political group that do have a nasty side. Like most things at the moment it seems like mudslinging without people having a mature conversation about their opposing views. Is that not wilful ignorance on their part though, to ignore what the players themselves have actually said and what it means to them and instead ascribe it to something else? It smacks of looking for a reason to boo it, which is a bit sinister to me.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Jun 3, 2021 16:23:13 GMT
If you bring something political into a sport people are going to boo it, it doesn’t matter what the underlying cause is.
People just want to watch the football, call the ref a wanker and go home.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 16:25:51 GMT
If you bring something political into a sport people are going to boo it, it doesn’t matter what the underlying cause is. People just want to watch the football, call the ref a wanker and go home. I'm bang up for binning off the national anthem if that's what we're tipping.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 3, 2021 16:28:35 GMT
i guess it’s all down to interpretation and people’s understanding of what it signifies. I’ve always said i’d be more in favour of something more unified like the whole team holding hands prior to kick off as that can only be identified positively. It’d be interesting to see people’s reaction to that. i think it’d be more positive. Rightly or wrongly some people will always link the knee to BLM as when it was first initiated that was what it signified and was something that was pushed. Personally I don’t really about it being done as it’s become so insignificant. Id never boo it but I do think that often people will justify booing it in their head because they identify it with the likes of Sasha Johnson and what she had to say. I think its wrong to call anybody who boos racist based on a possible interpretation in their head which isn’t racist but because of their lack. personal views on a political group that do have a nasty side. Like most things at the moment it seems like mudslinging without people having a mature conversation about their opposing views. Is that not wilful ignorance on their part though, to ignore what the players themselves have actually said and what it means to them and instead ascribe it to something else? It smacks of looking for a reason to boo it, which is a bit sinister to me. i’m pretty sure they don’t care I’m sure if best mates can fall out over politics they’re even less likely to listen to what a footballer says that’s even if they see it. People are very stubborn and if they have a view itll very rarely change and the more that views challenged. the less likely they are to budge. It can happen on a lot of things politics, religion, football, like / dislike of police being the main ones.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 16:39:32 GMT
Is that not wilful ignorance on their part though, to ignore what the players themselves have actually said and what it means to them and instead ascribe it to something else? It smacks of looking for a reason to boo it, which is a bit sinister to me. i’m pretty sure they don’t care I’m sure if best mates can fall out over politics they’re even less likely to listen to what a footballer says that’s even if they see it. People are very stubborn and if they have a view itll very rarely change and the more that views challenged. the less likely they are to budge. It can happen on a lot of things politics, religion, football, like / dislike of police being the main ones. Absolutely. But that’s a flaw. It’s on them.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 3, 2021 17:55:36 GMT
i guess it’s all down to interpretation and people’s understanding of what it signifies. I’ve always said i’d be more in favour of something more unified like the whole team holding hands prior to kick off as that can only be identified positively. It’d be interesting to see people’s reaction to that. i think it’d be more positive. Rightly or wrongly some people will always link the knee to BLM as when it was first initiated that was what it signified and was something that was pushed. Personally I don’t really about it being done as it’s become so insignificant. Id never boo it but I do think that often people will justify booing it in their head because they identify it with the likes of Sasha Johnson and what she had to say. I think its wrong to call anybody who boos racist based on a possible interpretation in their head which isn’t racist but because of their lack. personal views on a political group that do have a nasty side. Like most things at the moment it seems like mudslinging without people having a mature conversation about their opposing views. Is that not wilful ignorance on their part though, to ignore what the players themselves have actually said and what it means to them and instead ascribe it to something else? It smacks of looking for a reason to boo it, which is a bit sinister to me. I'll tell you what is really sinister is an incident happening thousands of miles away in a different country that results in the football authorities, Sky, BT etc in the UK jumping feet first into support of an organisation with very dubious aims. And we have to watch our players, to some their heroes, bending a knee to it all, because in the first instance they were coerced into it. That's how it all started, it was BLM Inc all the way. Oh I know they have quietly tried to change recent history and alter the narrative along the way because they knew they had dropped a bollock by joining forces with an organisation they didn't understand. But facts are facts, this is what they did and it pissed a lot of people off. And now they have the nerve to condemn people who are still pissed even though they have quietly changed the narrative. Yeah ok. They had the chance to do something with the advancement of Kick It Out during this time but they went for the big draw BLM movement. A movement that cares mostly about black lives harmed by white men, which incidentally is fair enough, its their right to campaign for what they want in a "free" society but make that mission statement clear and maybe make your name a bit more honest. They seem to care very little about black men gunning one another down hourly all across America as I never hear them talking or campaigning about that. So which black lives matter most to them? Shouldn't they care equally for all black lives? I thought equality was all the rage nowadays. But whatever ones view, politics should have no place in sport. It will ruin it, guaranteed. Whatever next a pre match Jig to combat the gender pay gap. I won't boo at a match but I won't be moaning about anyone who does. That's their choice and they are entitled to it and it doesn't make them a racist.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 17:59:12 GMT
Is that not wilful ignorance on their part though, to ignore what the players themselves have actually said and what it means to them and instead ascribe it to something else? It smacks of looking for a reason to boo it, which is a bit sinister to me. I'll tell you what is really sinister is an incident happening thousands of miles away in a different country that results in the football authorities, Sky, BT etc in the UK jumping feet first into support of an organisation with very dubious aims. And we have to watch our players, to some their heroes, bending a knee to it all, because in the first instance they were coerced into it. That's how it all started, it was BLM Inc all the way. Oh I know they have quietly tried to change recent history and alter the narrative along the way because they knew they had dropped a bollock by joining forces with an organisation they didn't understand. But facts are facts, this is what they did and it pissed a lot of people off. And now they have the nerve to condemn people who are still pissed even though they have quietly changed the narrative. Yeah ok. They had the chance to do something with the advancement of Kick It Out during this time but they went for the big draw BLM movement. A movement that cares mostly about black lives harmed by white men, which incidentally is fair enough, its their right to campaign for what they want in a "free" society but make that mission statement clear and maybe make your name a bit more honest. They seem to care very little about black men gunning one another down hourly all across America as I never hear them talking or campaigning about that. So which black lives matter most to them? Shouldn't they care equally for all black lives? I thought equality was all the rage nowadays. But whatever ones view, politics should have no place in sport. It will ruin it, guaranteed. Whatever next a pre match Jig to combat the gender pay gap. I won't boo at a match but I won't be moaning about anyone who does. That's their choice and they are entitled to it and it doesn't make them a racist. It’s possible to divorce it from BLM the organisation though and the players themselves have been at pains to do precisely that.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 3, 2021 18:08:13 GMT
I'll tell you what is really sinister is an incident happening thousands of miles away in a different country that results in the football authorities, Sky, BT etc in the UK jumping feet first into support of an organisation with very dubious aims. And we have to watch our players, to some their heroes, bending a knee to it all, because in the first instance they were coerced into it. That's how it all started, it was BLM Inc all the way. Oh I know they have quietly tried to change recent history and alter the narrative along the way because they knew they had dropped a bollock by joining forces with an organisation they didn't understand. But facts are facts, this is what they did and it pissed a lot of people off. And now they have the nerve to condemn people who are still pissed even though they have quietly changed the narrative. Yeah ok. They had the chance to do something with the advancement of Kick It Out during this time but they went for the big draw BLM movement. A movement that cares mostly about black lives harmed by white men, which incidentally is fair enough, its their right to campaign for what they want in a "free" society but make that mission statement clear and maybe make your name a bit more honest. They seem to care very little about black men gunning one another down hourly all across America as I never hear them talking or campaigning about that. So which black lives matter most to them? Shouldn't they care equally for all black lives? I thought equality was all the rage nowadays. But whatever ones view, politics should have no place in sport. It will ruin it, guaranteed. Whatever next a pre match Jig to combat the gender pay gap. I won't boo at a match but I won't be moaning about anyone who does. That's their choice and they are entitled to it and it doesn't make them a racist. It’s possible to divorce it from BLM the organisation though and the players themselves have been at pains to do precisely that. Of course, but the problem is they have done it surreptitiously and many media outlets have taken glee at the opportunity to frame the typical football crowd as racist Neanderthals. And up until very recently the BLM iconography was still blazoned on the screen. Its a right mess now as taking the knee will forever be linked to BLM Inc. It needs to be consigned to history as all it will do now is increase the divide. So much for unity. Come up with other more positive strategies and stop piggy backing on an event that took place thousands of miles away that does not accurately reflect British society.
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Post by leicspotter on Jun 3, 2021 18:11:01 GMT
Why can't football come up with its own, unique, method of conveying the anti racism message? Southgate says fans don't understand, I think he has a point. Fans don't understand why football has taken on an overtly political stance when it could, should, have taken on an overtly anti racist stance.
The game united with the keep off social media initiative, so it shouldn't be that difficult to come up with something that all players can get behind and make their point
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Post by ursemboys on Jun 3, 2021 18:18:22 GMT
My Best mate is black and he objects to BLM, and he doesn't give a toss if its black or coloured has long has it spoken has its meant to be and not has a slur.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 3, 2021 18:32:41 GMT
I'll tell you what is really sinister is an incident happening thousands of miles away in a different country that results in the football authorities, Sky, BT etc in the UK jumping feet first into support of an organisation with very dubious aims. And we have to watch our players, to some their heroes, bending a knee to it all, because in the first instance they were coerced into it. That's how it all started, it was BLM Inc all the way. Oh I know they have quietly tried to change recent history and alter the narrative along the way because they knew they had dropped a bollock by joining forces with an organisation they didn't understand. But facts are facts, this is what they did and it pissed a lot of people off. And now they have the nerve to condemn people who are still pissed even though they have quietly changed the narrative. Yeah ok. They had the chance to do something with the advancement of Kick It Out during this time but they went for the big draw BLM movement. A movement that cares mostly about black lives harmed by white men, which incidentally is fair enough, its their right to campaign for what they want in a "free" society but make that mission statement clear and maybe make your name a bit more honest. They seem to care very little about black men gunning one another down hourly all across America as I never hear them talking or campaigning about that. So which black lives matter most to them? Shouldn't they care equally for all black lives? I thought equality was all the rage nowadays. But whatever ones view, politics should have no place in sport. It will ruin it, guaranteed. Whatever next a pre match Jig to combat the gender pay gap. I won't boo at a match but I won't be moaning about anyone who does. That's their choice and they are entitled to it and it doesn't make them a racist. It’s possible to divorce it from BLM the organisation though and the players themselves have been at pains to do precisely that. People don’t forget though rightly or wrongly. Calling them “racist” because they’re unwilling to change their initial views doesn’t help matters either. It just stokes the fire more. This is why a new initiative of unity is a win win. Taking the knee divides too many people. It’s too easy too call people racist who won’t kneel or boo it when there reasons are never listened too. I wouldn’t boo people taking the knee but I wouldn’t kneel either. I would however wear a t-shirt or wristband promoting unity and equality. Now that’s something everyone could get behind unless they truly were racist.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 3, 2021 18:33:57 GMT
It’s possible to divorce it from BLM the organisation though and the players themselves have been at pains to do precisely that. People don’t forget though rightly or wrongly. People calling them “racist” because they’re unwilling to change their initial views doesn’t help matters either. It just stokes the fire more. This is why a new initiative of unity is a win win. Taking the knee divides too many people. It’s too easy too call people racist who won’t kneel or boo it when they’re reasons are never listened too. I wouldn’t boo people taking the knee but I wouldn’t kneel either. I would however wear a t-shirt or wristband promoting unity and equality. Now that’s something everyone could get behind unless they truly were racist. Bang on again Cobham
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 3, 2021 18:34:04 GMT
It’s possible to divorce it from BLM the organisation though and the players themselves have been at pains to do precisely that. Of course, but the problem is they have done it surreptitiously and many media outlets have taken glee at the opportunity to frame the typical football crowd as racist Neanderthals. And up until very recently the BLM iconography was still blazoned on the screen. Its a right mess now as taking the knee will forever be linked to BLM Inc. It needs to be consigned to history as all it will do now is increase the divide. So much for unity. Come up with other more positive strategies and stop piggy backing on an event that took place thousands of miles away that does not accurately reflect British society. Again though, to me booing a gesture of support for black footballers (which is what the players themselves see it as) doesn’t seem a particularly clear way of protesting against being seen as a racist Neanderthal. It’s fine to not agree with it but being motivated to boo shows a total disregard for the players themselves and I’d have thought that was more important than whatever noise Sky and whoever are making?
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