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Post by PotteringThrough on May 19, 2021 14:41:14 GMT
I don't understand. When is beating children ever the answer? You beat someone, they beat someone, their children beat other children and the spiral continues. Until someone actually says, "hey, let's talk about this. You are abusing people in the street, should we talk about it and maybe try to resolve it?"... Said person is then beaten up. This is definitely my Eutopian vision of the planet... Great to see fellow intellectuals on this board providing constructive solutions of how to solve societal issues. It may interest you that the UK (and England in particular) has one of the highest discrepancies of social economic statuses between areas of residence in Europe, and guess what, it also has one of the highest discrepancies between professions, qualifications, and achievements in school correlating to said inequalities. It is of absolutely no coincidence that some are failed by the British system of education. You only have to reference various international studies of education and societal inequalities, such as PISA, to see where things fall down. This too correlates to increased violence, violent protests and social disorder. You want to fix society? Fix education, but I tell you one thing, beating children or condoning violence will only make matters worse. "There can be no keener revelation of society's soul, than the way in which it treats it's children." Nelson Mandela. I think a few need a bit of soul searching personally. And then a bit of critical perspective of British society. I think folk will come back with.....he wasn't a child...on this one, as he was 21. Nevertheless, I agree violence and condoning violence is simply not the way forward imo I don't think it sets a good example put it that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. Violence isn’t the answer, but what do you think would be a good example in this instance? We only got the snippet of the aftermath which shows McBurnies actions, but what about the provocation in the first instance - how do we stop that? “Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me” - this doesn’t cut it in this cruel world now. The rise of social media and the endless abuse that is dished out does have a toll and it does have an impact and unfortunately increasingly dire consequences. This is taught in schools but it’s not changing things. And that’s not to say trolls online are all youngsters - they aren’t. I remember a few years ago Curtis Woodhouse got abuse on Twitter. He then found out where the abuser lived and posted a picture of himself on the persons street/front door asking for an apology or he was knocking on - he got an apology then. The threat of violence worked yet the only one who actually got abused was Woodhouse in the first instance, this seems unfair to me. Social platforms must do more and take more responsibility but 21 year old blokes giving someone verbal abuse in the street or at the pub for likes is a problem as well. There should be some punishment for this, it’s just not acceptable or normal behaviour. Is this lad likely to abuse someone in the street again or has he learned a valuable lesson?
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Post by gaznandi on May 19, 2021 15:14:26 GMT
I think folk will come back with.....he wasn't a child...on this one, as he was 21. Nevertheless, I agree violence and condoning violence is simply not the way forward imo I don't think it sets a good example put it that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. Violence isn’t the answer, but what do you think would be a good example in this instance? We only got the snippet of the aftermath which shows McBurnies actions, but what about the provocation in the first instance - how do we stop that? “Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me” - this doesn’t cut it in this cruel world now. The rise of social media and the endless abuse that is dished out does have a toll and it does have an impact and unfortunately increasingly dire consequences. This is taught in schools but it’s not changing things. And that’s not to say trolls online are all youngsters - they aren’t. I remember a few years ago Curtis Woodhouse got abuse on Twitter. He then found out where the abuser lived and posted a picture of himself on the persons street/front door asking for an apology or he was knocking on - he got an apology then. The threat of violence worked yet the only one who actually got abused was Woodhouse in the first instance, this seems unfair to me. Social platforms must do more and take more responsibility but 21 year old blokes giving someone verbal abuse in the street or at the pub for likes is a problem as well. There should be some punishment for this, it’s just not acceptable or normal behaviour. Is this lad likely to abuse someone in the street again or has he learned a valuable lesson? Stoke fans (ALL fans) give players and opposing fans dogs abuse every time they come across each other, every match. I assume we'll all be much nicer now after this thread in case an opposition player does a Cantona and lumps someone in the stand? After all, if it's given out then surely it's fine to take the punishment? Or is it all forgiven and 'bants' if it's done in the stadium and not on the street?
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Post by xchpotter on May 19, 2021 15:23:47 GMT
I think folk will come back with.....he wasn't a child...on this one, as he was 21. Nevertheless, I agree violence and condoning violence is simply not the way forward imo I don't think it sets a good example put it that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. Violence isn’t the answer, but what do you think would be a good example in this instance? We only got the snippet of the aftermath which shows McBurnies actions, but what about the provocation in the first instance - how do we stop that? “Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me” - this doesn’t cut it in this cruel world now. The rise of social media and the endless abuse that is dished out does have a toll and it does have an impact and unfortunately increasingly dire consequences. This is taught in schools but it’s not changing things. And that’s not to say trolls online are all youngsters - they aren’t. I remember a few years ago Curtis Woodhouse got abuse on Twitter. He then found out where the abuser lived and posted a picture of himself on the persons street/front door asking for an apology or he was knocking on - he got an apology then. The threat of violence worked yet the only one who actually got abused was Woodhouse in the first instance, this seems unfair to me. Social platforms must do more and take more responsibility but 21 year old blokes giving someone verbal abuse in the street or at the pub for likes is a problem as well. There should be some punishment for this, it’s just not acceptable or normal behaviour. Is this lad likely to abuse someone in the street again or has he learned a valuable lesson? What Mcburnie should have done was invite the lad to a sit down cup of tea and a chat. That way he could have spent hours listening to how this grown up had probably had a tough life and not got the right up bringing and how someone else was to blame. I’m sure this lad would have been only too happy to have engaged in this and would have felt the whole thing very cathartic. He would then have realised how gobbing off and abusing people isn’t the right thing to do and would have changed his life around completely leading to a light bulb moment where he could then volunteer and help society to be a far better place for all. He was just misunderstood, that’s all.
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Post by citynickscfc on May 19, 2021 15:24:11 GMT
I think folk will come back with.....he wasn't a child...on this one, as he was 21. Nevertheless, I agree violence and condoning violence is simply not the way forward imo I don't think it sets a good example put it that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. Violence isn’t the answer, but what do you think would be a good example in this instance? We only got the snippet of the aftermath which shows McBurnies actions, but what about the provocation in the first instance - how do we stop that? “Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me” - this doesn’t cut it in this cruel world now. The rise of social media and the endless abuse that is dished out does have a toll and it does have an impact and unfortunately increasingly dire consequences. This is taught in schools but it’s not changing things. And that’s not to say trolls online are all youngsters - they aren’t. I remember a few years ago Curtis Woodhouse got abuse on Twitter. He then found out where the abuser lived and posted a picture of himself on the persons street/front door asking for an apology or he was knocking on - he got an apology then. The threat of violence worked yet the only one who actually got abused was Woodhouse in the first instance, this seems unfair to me. Social platforms must do more and take more responsibility but 21 year old blokes giving someone verbal abuse in the street or at the pub for likes is a problem as well. There should be some punishment for this, it’s just not acceptable or normal behaviour. Is this lad likely to abuse someone in the street again or has he learned a valuable lesson? I believe the courts could issue him with a valuable lesson along with the premises set by social media bans and other forms of legal punishment beyond returning threats and violence. I don't believe anyone learns any valuable lessons from violent retaliation, non what so ever. An early 1900's nursery rhyme is also irrelevant in today's postmodern society. Criminal acts can be based upon psychological damage and I feel the aggression and retaliation to this incident has turned the victim into the perpetrator. He could have called the police, laughed at the guy and drove off in his 200k sports car with a wheel spin, or simply told the lad to do some solid self reflecting. The 'child' may have learnt from these responses. Either way the people condoning this are once again misdirected in their assertion of why such things occur. It's systematic and endemic in the UK. Again, it begins with education. Be it parental, institutional, or social. The systems have failed these individuals and are continuing to do so, so simply put... Expect more of the same. Be it an adult or a child, there are much better, more constructive ways of dealing with this situation. Just like locking criminals up does nothing without attempted rehabilitation, drug addicts too, or sending the naughty child out of the classroom. These archaic methods do absolutely no good and should be seriously reconsidered on a societal level. I genuinely can't believe people are condoning violence in 2021, especially against children (minors, or any age individual). Why would it be different if he was beating up an elderly? It wouldn't.
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Post by PotteringThrough on May 19, 2021 15:41:13 GMT
Violence isn’t the answer, but what do you think would be a good example in this instance? We only got the snippet of the aftermath which shows McBurnies actions, but what about the provocation in the first instance - how do we stop that? “Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me” - this doesn’t cut it in this cruel world now. The rise of social media and the endless abuse that is dished out does have a toll and it does have an impact and unfortunately increasingly dire consequences. This is taught in schools but it’s not changing things. And that’s not to say trolls online are all youngsters - they aren’t. I remember a few years ago Curtis Woodhouse got abuse on Twitter. He then found out where the abuser lived and posted a picture of himself on the persons street/front door asking for an apology or he was knocking on - he got an apology then. The threat of violence worked yet the only one who actually got abused was Woodhouse in the first instance, this seems unfair to me. Social platforms must do more and take more responsibility but 21 year old blokes giving someone verbal abuse in the street or at the pub for likes is a problem as well. There should be some punishment for this, it’s just not acceptable or normal behaviour. Is this lad likely to abuse someone in the street again or has he learned a valuable lesson? I believe the courts could issue him with a valuable lesson along with the premises set by social media bans and other forms of legal punishment beyond returning threats and violence. I don't believe anyone learns any valuable lessons from violent retaliation, non what so ever. An early 1900's nursery rhyme is also irrelevant in today's postmodern society. Criminal acts can be based upon psychological damage and I feel the aggression and retaliation to this incident has turned the victim into the perpetrator. He could have called the police, laughed at the guy and drove off in his 200k sports car with a wheel spin, or simply told the lad to do some solid self reflecting. The 'child' may have learnt from these responses. Either way the people condoning this are once again misdirected in their assertion of why such things occur. It's systematic and endemic in the UK. Again, it begins with education. Be it parental, institutional, or social. The systems have failed these individuals and are continuing to do so, so simply put... Expect more of the same. Be it an adult or a child, there are much better, more constructive ways of dealing with this situation. Just like locking criminals up does nothing without attempted rehabilitation, drug addicts too, or sending the naughty child out of the classroom. These archaic methods do absolutely no good and should be seriously reconsidered on a societal level. I genuinely can't believe people are condoning violence in 2021, especially against children (minors, or any age individual). Why would it be different if he was beating up an elderly? It wouldn't. Ok, so what does McBurnie get out of your solution? How much abuse does he get regularly? Is this a common occurrence for him and is he, as a human, expected to just tolerate it and pass a note to the police saying “they’re bothering me again but it’s ok I’ve smiled, sucked it up and drove away in my fancy car that I can afford because I just happen to be a half decent footballer.”? There’s a lot of what ifs involved and those condemning McBurnies actions should also view it from his perspective - how much grief does he get regularly? Just to reiterate - it’s a 21 year old lad who’s dishing the abuse out and not expecting any consequences, not kids but an adult. I’m not condoning violence I just think there’s a bit of grey area with this one & we still haven’t got the full picture because we don’t see what happens in the middle (if that other video is the start).
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Post by citynickscfc on May 19, 2021 17:40:50 GMT
I believe the courts could issue him with a valuable lesson along with the premises set by social media bans and other forms of legal punishment beyond returning threats and violence. I don't believe anyone learns any valuable lessons from violent retaliation, non what so ever. An early 1900's nursery rhyme is also irrelevant in today's postmodern society. Criminal acts can be based upon psychological damage and I feel the aggression and retaliation to this incident has turned the victim into the perpetrator. He could have called the police, laughed at the guy and drove off in his 200k sports car with a wheel spin, or simply told the lad to do some solid self reflecting. The 'child' may have learnt from these responses. Either way the people condoning this are once again misdirected in their assertion of why such things occur. It's systematic and endemic in the UK. Again, it begins with education. Be it parental, institutional, or social. The systems have failed these individuals and are continuing to do so, so simply put... Expect more of the same. Be it an adult or a child, there are much better, more constructive ways of dealing with this situation. Just like locking criminals up does nothing without attempted rehabilitation, drug addicts too, or sending the naughty child out of the classroom. These archaic methods do absolutely no good and should be seriously reconsidered on a societal level. I genuinely can't believe people are condoning violence in 2021, especially against children (minors, or any age individual). Why would it be different if he was beating up an elderly? It wouldn't. Ok, so what does McBurnie get out of your solution? How much abuse does he get regularly? Is this a common occurrence for him and is he, as a human, expected to just tolerate it and pass a note to the police saying “they’re bothering me again but it’s ok I’ve smiled, sucked it up and drove away in my fancy car that I can afford because I just happen to be a half decent footballer.”? There’s a lot of what ifs involved and those condemning McBurnies actions should also view it from his perspective - how much grief does he get regularly? Just to reiterate - it’s a 21 year old lad who’s dishing the abuse out and not expecting any consequences, not kids but an adult. I’m not condoning violence I just think there’s a bit of grey area with this one & we still haven’t got the full picture because we don’t see what happens in the middle (if that other video is the start). He gets criminal justice, surely. And the reinforcement of being both a victim, publications acknowledging bullying and working to eradicate it from society much like discrimination. That's what he gets, right? Justice? Are you suggesting the justice system won't facilitate justice? Then you need to turn your attention to the systems that your country, your voice, and your votes, implement. What you are suggesting and incentivising is some form of social order whereby individuals take law into their own hands. Again, Britain's distain with police, as with America, comes from social injustices relating to inequity and inequality, particularly regarding S.E.S.
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Post by PotteringThrough on May 19, 2021 18:12:21 GMT
Ok, so what does McBurnie get out of your solution? How much abuse does he get regularly? Is this a common occurrence for him and is he, as a human, expected to just tolerate it and pass a note to the police saying “they’re bothering me again but it’s ok I’ve smiled, sucked it up and drove away in my fancy car that I can afford because I just happen to be a half decent footballer.”? There’s a lot of what ifs involved and those condemning McBurnies actions should also view it from his perspective - how much grief does he get regularly? Just to reiterate - it’s a 21 year old lad who’s dishing the abuse out and not expecting any consequences, not kids but an adult. I’m not condoning violence I just think there’s a bit of grey area with this one & we still haven’t got the full picture because we don’t see what happens in the middle (if that other video is the start). He gets criminal justice, surely. And the reinforcement of being both a victim, publications acknowledging bullying and working to eradicate it from society much like discrimination. That's what he gets, right? Justice? Are you suggesting the justice system won't facilitate justice? Then you need to turn your attention to the systems that your country, your voice, and your votes, implement. What you are suggesting and incentivising is some form of social order whereby individuals take law into their own hands. Again, Britain's distain with police, as with America, comes from social injustices relating to inequity and inequality, particularly regarding S.E.S. Ah, but you’re assuming the other guy is guilty without a trial? Is that justice? It has to be deemed warranting of prosecution but getting to that stage is a different matter and there’s no guarantee that the case will progress, so is that justice? Say original 21 year old bloke decides not to share the video and then there’s very little evidence, other than McBurnie saying it and his girlfriend (I think she was there). What happens then, do you expect criminal justice to be meted out?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 18:51:03 GMT
Everyone has their breaking point. I don't blame him for snacking the little prick. Hopefully that'll teach him to gob off at someone next time. I don't understand. When is beating children ever the answer? You beat someone, they beat someone, their children beat other children and the spiral continues. Until someone actually says, "hey, let's talk about this. You are abusing people in the street, should we talk about it and maybe try to resolve it?"... Said person is then beaten up. This is definitely my Eutopian vision of the planet... Great to see fellow intellectuals on this board providing constructive solutions of how to solve societal issues. It may interest you that the UK (and England in particular) has one of the highest discrepancies of social economic statuses between areas of residence in Europe, and guess what, it also has one of the highest discrepancies between professions, qualifications, and achievements in school correlating to said inequalities. It is of absolutely no coincidence that some are failed by the British system of education. You only have to reference various international studies of education and societal inequalities, such as PISA, to see where things fall down. This too correlates to increased violence, violent protests and social disorder. You want to fix society? Fix education, but I tell you one thing, beating children or condoning violence will only make matters worse. "There can be no keener revelation of society's soul, than the way in which it treats it's children." Nelson Mandela. I think a few need a bit of soul searching personally. And then a bit of critical perspective of British society. He's not a child. As stated by someone on here he is 21 years old.
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Post by a on May 19, 2021 20:34:43 GMT
Turns out he was 21 and has accepted because he acted like a complete prat he deserved his slap and knee to the midriff. Says he wont be pressing charges. Fair play. Case closed. There we go then. Probably had plenty of threats from Sheffield United fans or threat of losing his job?? Whatever the reason it is done and dusted, unless the club conduct an internal review.
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Post by a on May 19, 2021 20:39:07 GMT
Ok, so what does McBurnie get out of your solution? How much abuse does he get regularly? Is this a common occurrence for him and is he, as a human, expected to just tolerate it and pass a note to the police saying “they’re bothering me again but it’s ok I’ve smiled, sucked it up and drove away in my fancy car that I can afford because I just happen to be a half decent footballer.”? There’s a lot of what ifs involved and those condemning McBurnies actions should also view it from his perspective - how much grief does he get regularly? Just to reiterate - it’s a 21 year old lad who’s dishing the abuse out and not expecting any consequences, not kids but an adult. I’m not condoning violence I just think there’s a bit of grey area with this one & we still haven’t got the full picture because we don’t see what happens in the middle (if that other video is the start). He gets criminal justice, surely. And the reinforcement of being both a victim, publications acknowledging bullying and working to eradicate it from society much like discrimination. That's what he gets, right? Justice? Are you suggesting the justice system won't facilitate justice? Then you need to turn your attention to the systems that your country, your voice, and your votes, implement. What you are suggesting and incentivising is some form of social order whereby individuals take law into their own hands. Again, Britain's distain with police, as with America, comes from social injustices relating to inequity and inequality, particularly regarding S.E.S. If the ‘victim’ is unsupportive of a prosecution and isn’t the victim of a domestic related offence then there’s nothing the police or Criminal justice system can do. What are you suggesting happens in that case?
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Post by spitthedog on May 19, 2021 21:06:54 GMT
I believe the courts could issue him with a valuable lesson along with the premises set by social media bans and other forms of legal punishment beyond returning threats and violence. I don't believe anyone learns any valuable lessons from violent retaliation, non what so ever. An early 1900's nursery rhyme is also irrelevant in today's postmodern society. Criminal acts can be based upon psychological damage and I feel the aggression and retaliation to this incident has turned the victim into the perpetrator. He could have called the police, laughed at the guy and drove off in his 200k sports car with a wheel spin, or simply told the lad to do some solid self reflecting. The 'child' may have learnt from these responses. Either way the people condoning this are once again misdirected in their assertion of why such things occur. It's systematic and endemic in the UK. Again, it begins with education. Be it parental, institutional, or social. The systems have failed these individuals and are continuing to do so, so simply put... Expect more of the same. Be it an adult or a child, there are much better, more constructive ways of dealing with this situation. Just like locking criminals up does nothing without attempted rehabilitation, drug addicts too, or sending the naughty child out of the classroom. These archaic methods do absolutely no good and should be seriously reconsidered on a societal level. I genuinely can't believe people are condoning violence in 2021, especially against children (minors, or any age individual). Why would it be different if he was beating up an elderly? It wouldn't. Ok, so what does McBurnie get out of your solution? How much abuse does he get regularly? Is this a common occurrence for him and is he, as a human, expected to just tolerate it and pass a note to the police saying “they’re bothering me again but it’s ok I’ve smiled, sucked it up and drove away in my fancy car that I can afford because I just happen to be a half decent footballer.”? There’s a lot of what ifs involved and those condemning McBurnies actions should also view it from his perspective - how much grief does he get regularly? Just to reiterate - it’s a 21 year old lad who’s dishing the abuse out and not expecting any consequences, not kids but an adult. I’m not condoning violence I just think there’s a bit of grey area with this one & we still haven’t got the full picture because we don’t see what happens in the middle (if that other video is the start). On what basis are you assuming he doesn't expect any consequences? He didn't press charges. On that basis we might also assume that he expected consequences and has no problem with that.
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Post by PotteringThrough on May 19, 2021 21:18:00 GMT
Ok, so what does McBurnie get out of your solution? How much abuse does he get regularly? Is this a common occurrence for him and is he, as a human, expected to just tolerate it and pass a note to the police saying “they’re bothering me again but it’s ok I’ve smiled, sucked it up and drove away in my fancy car that I can afford because I just happen to be a half decent footballer.”? There’s a lot of what ifs involved and those condemning McBurnies actions should also view it from his perspective - how much grief does he get regularly? Just to reiterate - it’s a 21 year old lad who’s dishing the abuse out and not expecting any consequences, not kids but an adult. I’m not condoning violence I just think there’s a bit of grey area with this one & we still haven’t got the full picture because we don’t see what happens in the middle (if that other video is the start). On what basis are you assuming he doesn't expect any consequences? He didn't press charges. On that basis we might also assume that he expected consequences and has no problem with that. Would you film it? Would you film yourself verbally abusing someone on a personal level, knowing what you’re doing is morally reprehensible? To go off Nicks point, filming yourself potentially committing a crime thereby incriminating yourself? My original quote to you was more about balance, and what level of abuse was received & is therefore deemed acceptable before a response can be accepted. You’re quick to condemn McBurnie but you don’t have the full story - is that fair?
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Post by gaznandi on May 19, 2021 22:34:52 GMT
On what basis are you assuming he doesn't expect any consequences? He didn't press charges. On that basis we might also assume that he expected consequences and has no problem with that. Would you film it? Would you film yourself verbally abusing someone on a personal level, knowing what you’re doing is morally reprehensible? To go off Nicks point, filming yourself potentially committing a crime thereby incriminating yourself? My original quote to you was more about balance, and what level of abuse was received & is therefore deemed acceptable before a response can be accepted. You’re quick to condemn McBurnie but you don’t have the full story - is that fair? I refer again to my post. 5000, 10,000, 20,000, 40,000 etc etc, fans do this every single match. Do they all need a twatting or is it different because the players being abused are in a place of work as opposed to the street? Really curious where the line is drawn here and why tbh.
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Post by spitthedog on May 19, 2021 23:21:20 GMT
On what basis are you assuming he doesn't expect any consequences? He didn't press charges. On that basis we might also assume that he expected consequences and has no problem with that. Would you film it? Would you film yourself verbally abusing someone on a personal level, knowing what you’re doing is morally reprehensible? To go off Nicks point, filming yourself potentially committing a crime thereby incriminating yourself? My original quote to you was more about balance, and what level of abuse was received & is therefore deemed acceptable before a response can be accepted. You’re quick to condemn McBurnie but you don’t have the full story - is that fair? Do you have the full story? I'm not really sure where you have found the evidence to suggest that I am quick to condemn McBurnie? I am fairly quick to condemn violence, and people taking the law into their own hands which many on here are advocating. There is a very clear distinction there. I have no idea if McBurnie was guilty of these or not and therefore have not made any such judgement, just like I have no evidence about any serious level of abuse that was taking place.
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Post by citynickscfc on May 20, 2021 5:10:21 GMT
He gets criminal justice, surely. And the reinforcement of being both a victim, publications acknowledging bullying and working to eradicate it from society much like discrimination. That's what he gets, right? Justice? Are you suggesting the justice system won't facilitate justice? Then you need to turn your attention to the systems that your country, your voice, and your votes, implement. What you are suggesting and incentivising is some form of social order whereby individuals take law into their own hands. Again, Britain's distain with police, as with America, comes from social injustices relating to inequity and inequality, particularly regarding S.E.S. Ah, but you’re assuming the other guy is guilty without a trial? Is that justice? It has to be deemed warranting of prosecution but getting to that stage is a different matter and there’s no guarantee that the case will progress, so is that justice? Say original 21 year old bloke decides not to share the video and then there’s very little evidence, other than McBurnie saying it and his girlfriend (I think she was there). What happens then, do you expect criminal justice to be meted out? I was suggesting that Mcburnie would get criminal justice, reporting the guy abusing him to the police. At least it would go on record, which is very much a preventative measure.
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Post by PotteringThrough on May 20, 2021 7:03:52 GMT
Would you film it? Would you film yourself verbally abusing someone on a personal level, knowing what you’re doing is morally reprehensible? To go off Nicks point, filming yourself potentially committing a crime thereby incriminating yourself? My original quote to you was more about balance, and what level of abuse was received & is therefore deemed acceptable before a response can be accepted. You’re quick to condemn McBurnie but you don’t have the full story - is that fair? I refer again to my post. 5000, 10,000, 20,000, 40,000 etc etc, fans do this every single match. Do they all need a twatting or is it different because the players being abused are in a place of work as opposed to the street? Really curious where the line is drawn here and why tbh. I think it’s up to you where you draw the line. I don’t see them as being one and the same - I think there’s a difference in what the lad in the video is doing on the street compared to a crowd of people calling someone a cheat when they fall over. I don’t think “all” fans deliver personal abuse to players on the same level as the video. I still don’t think we’ve got the full story, we don’t what else has been said to McBurnie to cause the reaction in its entirety but I think we’re clear now it wasn’t a 14 year old as the original post suggested.
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Post by PotteringThrough on May 20, 2021 8:06:34 GMT
Would you film it? Would you film yourself verbally abusing someone on a personal level, knowing what you’re doing is morally reprehensible? To go off Nicks point, filming yourself potentially committing a crime thereby incriminating yourself? My original quote to you was more about balance, and what level of abuse was received & is therefore deemed acceptable before a response can be accepted. You’re quick to condemn McBurnie but you don’t have the full story - is that fair? Do you have the full story? I'm not really sure where you have found the evidence to suggest that I am quick to condemn McBurnie? I am fairly quick to condemn violence, and people taking the law into their own hands which many on here are advocating. There is a very clear distinction there. I have no idea if McBurnie was guilty of these or not and therefore have not made any such judgement, just like I have no evidence about any serious level of abuse that was taking place. No, you’re right - you weren’t condemning McBurnie. Apologies. I’ve also been quite clear there’s a fair bit of information missing from this and I’d like the full picture. However I would argue there’s evidence that personal abuse was taking place, whether you view that as serious or not is your call, but given the man is not pressing charges I doubt we will get the full answers which includes both parties actions in the build up.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on May 20, 2021 9:26:30 GMT
The guy was dishing out very vocal threatening and aggressive dogs abuse with plenty of extreme language. He got his face slapped for it. He's even been quoted as saying he was out of order and deserved his comeuppance and fair play to him for that. In my younger years, and I am certain plenty of others on here have done stupid things and got themselves into a bit of bother. I eventually learnt my lesson and nowadays mostly just grumble at the telly.
Its life and the 21 year old MAN is well on his way to learning a very important life lesson. And hopefully he will pass the lesson onto his kids so they make less of his mistakes. Actions have consequences. And that applies to McBurnie as well so if he does eventually get charged then he will need to deal with that through the legal system. However given the purported "victims" response I think we have a neat solution that avoids wasting time in the legal system. Case closed for me.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 9:49:30 GMT
The guy was dishing out very vocal threatening and aggressive dogs abuse with plenty of extreme language. He got his face slapped for it. He's even been quoted as saying he was out of order and deserved his comeuppance and fair play to him for that. In my younger years, and I am certain plenty of others on here have done stupid things and got themselves into a bit of bother. I eventually learnt my lesson and nowadays mostly just grumble at the telly. Its life and the 21 year old MAN is well on his way to learning a very important life lesson. And hopefully he will pass the lesson onto his kids so they make less of his mistakes. Actions have consequences. And that applies to McBurnie as well so if he does eventually get charged then he will need to deal with that through the legal system. However given the purported "victims" response I think we have a neat solution that avoids wasting time in the legal system. Case closed for me. Spot on.
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Post by a on May 20, 2021 12:35:29 GMT
Ah, but you’re assuming the other guy is guilty without a trial? Is that justice? It has to be deemed warranting of prosecution but getting to that stage is a different matter and there’s no guarantee that the case will progress, so is that justice? Say original 21 year old bloke decides not to share the video and then there’s very little evidence, other than McBurnie saying it and his girlfriend (I think she was there). What happens then, do you expect criminal justice to be meted out? I was suggesting that Mcburnie would get criminal justice, reporting the guy abusing him to the police. At least it would go on record, which is very much a preventative measure. This whole thing of it “going on record” means nothing. You can be investigated 100x but if it’s not progressed then if anything it gives the accused ammunition to pursue a case for wrongful arrest. Hopefully both have learned a life lesson, even though I’d probably take the side of McBurnie he has been foolish in reacting, but I don’t really blame him
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Post by citynickscfc on May 20, 2021 14:10:34 GMT
I was suggesting that Mcburnie would get criminal justice, reporting the guy abusing him to the police. At least it would go on record, which is very much a preventative measure. This whole thing of it “going on record” means nothing. You can be investigated 100x but if it’s not progressed then if anything it gives the accused ammunition to pursue a case for wrongful arrest. Hopefully both have learned a life lesson, even though I’d probably take the side of McBurnie he has been foolish in reacting, but I don’t really blame him I mean, criminal records effect employment. Rational individuals tend to not want to commit crimes, unless they have to which is another matter altogether (of inequality or socioeconomically motivated). In this instance, a crime is clearly committed with witnesses, he could even get the guy banned from matches, or take it to social media, get footballers together to rally against bullying and antagonising of individuals, mental health for example... Hundreds of positive possibilities from being the victim and bring attention to injustices, or perhaps making an example of justice, in society. Instead he's reinforced abusive retaliation, taking the law into his own hands, risked his career, his reputation and credibility, all to react to name calling/bullying. If it was self defence, I agree I can accept defending ones self... But this clearly isnt (although he seems to be provoked in some way) the video clearly shows intent on his part, he makes an absolutely conscious effort to physically harm another individual, and to the degree of which is otherwise unknown. Such instances have ended up in people being killed, see police brutality that is not often intentional. There is no way in any aspect of rational society that such a reaction is acceptable, nor considered so.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on May 20, 2021 14:22:32 GMT
This whole thing of it “going on record” means nothing. You can be investigated 100x but if it’s not progressed then if anything it gives the accused ammunition to pursue a case for wrongful arrest. Hopefully both have learned a life lesson, even though I’d probably take the side of McBurnie he has been foolish in reacting, but I don’t really blame him I mean, criminal records effect employment. Rational individuals tend to not want to commit crimes, unless they have to which is another matter altogether (of inequality or socioeconomically motivated). In this instance, a crime is clearly committed with witnesses, he could even get the guy banned from matches, or take it to social media, get footballers together to rally against bullying and antagonising of individuals, mental health for example... Hundreds of positive possibilities from being the victim and bring attention to injustices, or perhaps making an example of justice, in society. Instead he's reinforced abusive retaliation, taking the law into his own hands, risked his career, his reputation and credibility, all to react to name calling/bullying. If it was self defence, I agree I can accept defending ones self... But this clearly isnt (although he seems to be provoked in some way) the video clearly shows intent on his part, he makes an absolutely conscious effort to physically harm another individual, and to the degree of which is otherwise unknown. Such instances have ended up in people being killed, see police brutality that is not often intentional. There is no way in any aspect of rational society that such a reaction is acceptable, nor considered so. Try being McBurnie, hounded with abuse like this quite frequently I would suspect, likely being told how shit at his job he is, how ugly his missus is, how he should kill himself etc. Tell me you'd still ignore that after umpteenth person directs venom at you. At some point anyone will snap in the face of such provocation. Some people need a slap, I've had the moral high ground drilled into me from a young age and guess what, it doesn't work, yet a smack in the jaw often does, as we have seen here.
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Post by a on May 20, 2021 16:55:04 GMT
This whole thing of it “going on record” means nothing. You can be investigated 100x but if it’s not progressed then if anything it gives the accused ammunition to pursue a case for wrongful arrest. Hopefully both have learned a life lesson, even though I’d probably take the side of McBurnie he has been foolish in reacting, but I don’t really blame him I mean, criminal records effect employment. Rational individuals tend to not want to commit crimes, unless they have to which is another matter altogether (of inequality or socioeconomically motivated). In this instance, a crime is clearly committed with witnesses, he could even get the guy banned from matches, or take it to social media, get footballers together to rally against bullying and antagonising of individuals, mental health for example... Hundreds of positive possibilities from being the victim and bring attention to injustices, or perhaps making an example of justice, in society. Instead he's reinforced abusive retaliation, taking the law into his own hands, risked his career, his reputation and credibility, all to react to name calling/bullying. If it was self defence, I agree I can accept defending ones self... But this clearly isnt (although he seems to be provoked in some way) the video clearly shows intent on his part, he makes an absolutely conscious effort to physically harm another individual, and to the degree of which is otherwise unknown. Such instances have ended up in people being killed, see police brutality that is not often intentional. There is no way in any aspect of rational society that such a reaction is acceptable, nor considered so. I’m talking about simply recording a crime but it going nowhere, it means nothing, unless there is some form of prosecution then it won’t matter for jobs etc.
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Post by citynickscfc on May 20, 2021 17:35:07 GMT
I mean, criminal records effect employment. Rational individuals tend to not want to commit crimes, unless they have to which is another matter altogether (of inequality or socioeconomically motivated). In this instance, a crime is clearly committed with witnesses, he could even get the guy banned from matches, or take it to social media, get footballers together to rally against bullying and antagonising of individuals, mental health for example... Hundreds of positive possibilities from being the victim and bring attention to injustices, or perhaps making an example of justice, in society. Instead he's reinforced abusive retaliation, taking the law into his own hands, risked his career, his reputation and credibility, all to react to name calling/bullying. If it was self defence, I agree I can accept defending ones self... But this clearly isnt (although he seems to be provoked in some way) the video clearly shows intent on his part, he makes an absolutely conscious effort to physically harm another individual, and to the degree of which is otherwise unknown. Such instances have ended up in people being killed, see police brutality that is not often intentional. There is no way in any aspect of rational society that such a reaction is acceptable, nor considered so. I’m talking about simply recording a crime but it going nowhere, it means nothing, unless there is some form of prosecution then it won’t matter for jobs etc. There are literally hundreds of anti bullying campaigns in every nation these days. In addition, it is actually illegal to bully other individuals in Finland, including in schools. We discuss these things regularly with children when the opportunity presents itself, and that is most certainly not a threat - its an opportunity to open dialogue and acknowledge the various perspectives. Banter, particularly prolonged, is a form of bullying...too. I guess that is something that is as amiss in the UK's public understanding of how to behave socially and developing a critical perspective of societal issues. Much like the phrase 'equality' that is banded around without consideration of equity. Im not saying all people, but it seems predominant on this discussion board which is quite saddening. Thus, as a practicing educator, you are unlikely to find professionals or parents telling their children to 'just whack em in the chops' as a result of someone calling a name. Bullying is definitely an issue globally, as are the many forms of discrimination. These should be countered with acknowledgement, preventative measures and dialogue that it is unacceptable to do, and otherwise should not be tolerated by or within society.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 19:29:50 GMT
Meaningless showing the edited highlights on someones phone .
If you focus entirely on the bit of the video that supports your agenda then you can show the exact opposite of what happened
There used to be a series of ads for the Guardian ...get the Guardian for the bigger picture ...
A man pushes a kid into the road for no reason !!!
Then the bigger picture ...an idiot is bombing along the pavement on a moped ...so from a different camera angle ...the man pushes the kid into the road to stop him getting run over ...and as soon as the moped is gone ... about a second later ...helps him up and escorts him back to the pavement
The ad is better than the paper . If you focus on exactly what you want to show with mobile phone footage , you can show the exact opposite of what actually happened .
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Post by mickeythemaestro on May 21, 2021 8:54:27 GMT
I’m talking about simply recording a crime but it going nowhere, it means nothing, unless there is some form of prosecution then it won’t matter for jobs etc. There are literally hundreds of anti bullying campaigns in every nation these days. In addition, it is actually illegal to bully other individuals in Finland, including in schools. We discuss these things regularly with children when the opportunity presents itself, and that is most certainly not a threat - its an opportunity to open dialogue and acknowledge the various perspectives. Banter, particularly prolonged, is a form of bullying...too. I guess that is something that is as amiss in the UK's public understanding of how to behave socially and developing a critical perspective of societal issues. Much like the phrase 'equality' that is banded around without consideration of equity. Im not saying all people, but it seems predominant on this discussion board which is quite saddening. Thus, as a practicing educator, you are unlikely to find professionals or parents telling their children to 'just whack em in the chops' as a result of someone calling a name. Bullying is definitely an issue globally, as are the many forms of discrimination. These should be countered with acknowledgement, preventative measures and dialogue that it is unacceptable to do, and otherwise should not be tolerated by or within society. What is your understanding of the word equity as opposed to the word equality?
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Post by a on May 21, 2021 9:15:08 GMT
I’m talking about simply recording a crime but it going nowhere, it means nothing, unless there is some form of prosecution then it won’t matter for jobs etc. There are literally hundreds of anti bullying campaigns in every nation these days. In addition, it is actually illegal to bully other individuals in Finland, including in schools. We discuss these things regularly with children when the opportunity presents itself, and that is most certainly not a threat - its an opportunity to open dialogue and acknowledge the various perspectives. Banter, particularly prolonged, is a form of bullying...too. I guess that is something that is as amiss in the UK's public understanding of how to behave socially and developing a critical perspective of societal issues. Much like the phrase 'equality' that is banded around without consideration of equity. Im not saying all people, but it seems predominant on this discussion board which is quite saddening. Thus, as a practicing educator, you are unlikely to find professionals or parents telling their children to 'just whack em in the chops' as a result of someone calling a name. Bullying is definitely an issue globally, as are the many forms of discrimination. These should be countered with acknowledgement, preventative measures and dialogue that it is unacceptable to do, and otherwise should not be tolerated by or within society. I think the world has gone soft. I abhor bullying by the way.
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Post by citynickscfc on May 21, 2021 10:19:38 GMT
There are literally hundreds of anti bullying campaigns in every nation these days. In addition, it is actually illegal to bully other individuals in Finland, including in schools. We discuss these things regularly with children when the opportunity presents itself, and that is most certainly not a threat - its an opportunity to open dialogue and acknowledge the various perspectives. Banter, particularly prolonged, is a form of bullying...too. I guess that is something that is as amiss in the UK's public understanding of how to behave socially and developing a critical perspective of societal issues. Much like the phrase 'equality' that is banded around without consideration of equity. Im not saying all people, but it seems predominant on this discussion board which is quite saddening. Thus, as a practicing educator, you are unlikely to find professionals or parents telling their children to 'just whack em in the chops' as a result of someone calling a name. Bullying is definitely an issue globally, as are the many forms of discrimination. These should be countered with acknowledgement, preventative measures and dialogue that it is unacceptable to do, and otherwise should not be tolerated by or within society. What is your understanding of the word equity as opposed to the word equality? There is a good graphic used for this purpose. Anyhow, there's an example of discussion regarding equality and equity in this article, particularly regarding education... And as we will know, education forms (and reforms) the very foundations of our present and future society. This has not been proof read by the way, and this is not the basis of my argument as such,but may provide insight. I literally just googled the image and started to read the document. medium.com/complexity-liberalism/equality-and-equity-99e04448e8fa
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Post by citynickscfc on May 21, 2021 10:30:09 GMT
There are literally hundreds of anti bullying campaigns in every nation these days. In addition, it is actually illegal to bully other individuals in Finland, including in schools. We discuss these things regularly with children when the opportunity presents itself, and that is most certainly not a threat - its an opportunity to open dialogue and acknowledge the various perspectives. Banter, particularly prolonged, is a form of bullying...too. I guess that is something that is as amiss in the UK's public understanding of how to behave socially and developing a critical perspective of societal issues. Much like the phrase 'equality' that is banded around without consideration of equity. Im not saying all people, but it seems predominant on this discussion board which is quite saddening. Thus, as a practicing educator, you are unlikely to find professionals or parents telling their children to 'just whack em in the chops' as a result of someone calling a name. Bullying is definitely an issue globally, as are the many forms of discrimination. These should be countered with acknowledgement, preventative measures and dialogue that it is unacceptable to do, and otherwise should not be tolerated by or within society. I think the world has gone soft. I abhor bullying by the way. If by soft, you mean started to open it's eyes to discrimination and injustices on a global scale (partially due to globalization), I agree. "Something like 2 billion and rising people in the world survive on 1-2$ per day income,or less... How much indifference can the world take before something breaks?". The world most certainly hasn't gone soft. If anything, it's been closing its eyes to things line social injustices for far too long. I mean, would you condone your own child walking around the street abusing others? Or in the other side, walking around responding to any form of provokation (perceived or real) with physical violence? Also smacking your own child? The world has changed, not everyone is ready for change nor accepts it, and the change is constant. Things like smacking your children, we know better to continue the violent spiral, there are much better ways of dealing with these things. Perhaps that is exactly what happened to Mcburnie as a child...who knows.
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Post by a on May 21, 2021 16:31:20 GMT
I think the world has gone soft. I abhor bullying by the way. If by soft, you mean started to open it's eyes to discrimination and injustices on a global scale (partially due to globalization), I agree. "Something like 2 billion and rising people in the world survive on 1-2$ per day income,or less... How much indifference can the world take before something breaks?". The world most certainly hasn't gone soft. If anything, it's been closing its eyes to things line social injustices for far too long. I mean, would you condone your own child walking around the street abusing others? Or in the other side, walking around responding to any form of provokation (perceived or real) with physical violence? Also smacking your own child? The world has changed, not everyone is ready for change nor accepts it, and the change is constant. Things like smacking your children, we know better to continue the violent spiral, there are much better ways of dealing with these things. Perhaps that is exactly what happened to Mcburnie as a child...who knows. Crime statistics including knife crime are troubling though aren’t they?
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