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Post by RAF on Mar 24, 2021 10:23:41 GMT
There were many parents back in the day that thought it was a big plus point with crewe, that coaches involved with the 1st team took such an interest in their development, even having them staying at their house pre match. Of course you wouldn't let it happen but from age of 9 kids at these clubs are travelling abroad with coaches and staying in hotels without parents. If your child is in that environment do you let them go or deprive them of the opportunity? I just think it was a very different age. It's about position and power, people who had any kind of position of power, whether it be teacher, coach, social worker, we always assumed to be trustworthy and were assumed to have earned the right to have the power that goes with it. From my own first hand experience, working class culture was always deferential in this way, and looked up to people in positions of trust and power, and the fact is most people were trustworthy but other's clearly abused this and exploited it badly. Like you say it would be considered an honour, or privilege to be taken under their wing and the other thing that was exploited was the fact that football was one of the few outlets for most working class kids to fulfil their dreams. This was also exploited. When I was a kid there was nothing else that mattered, or existed in the world tbh. My world revolved around it. Growing up, I could easily imagine myself and my family being starstruck by the likes of Barry Bennell. Absolutely Spit, I'd say naivety played a massive part. When I was a kid we were out playing all day not a care in the world and as long as you were back before it went dark then all was good. It's sad but no way will my boy have that kind of freedom because I cannot let that happen. I'm terrified something may happen to him. On a side note I was at South Cheshire college for a year 86 -87 and the rumours about Crewe were rife then. H
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 24, 2021 11:21:37 GMT
Watching the second episode made me wonder what the jury must be thinking to return the not guilty verdicts back then. Its scandalous to think that the opportunity was there, with evidence, to lock these people away, yet they got off scott free. It was also really sad to see billy seymour had died before justice finally gets served. RIP fella. Wasn't the problem it was in most of the cases the word of 2 or 4 or 5 kids against 1 adult as understandably alot of now grown up kids did not want to go public on what had happened to them, there was no physical or picture evidence, sitting on a jury you'd like to think you'd pick a wrong un but with a lawyer suggesting it was just for some other reason (compo or whatever) and people who had been coaching for 20 or 30 years and there only being 4 or 5 complainants I can't honestly say I'd have been absolutely certain enough to say guilty, now if there had been 40 or 50 or whatever thats different, going the other way we have seen the danger of automatically believing allegations like in the Carl Beech case. Regardless of the difficulty in getting convictions once allegations had been made there is no way the accused should have been allowed any involvement in football let alone with kids that is unforgiveable.
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 24, 2021 11:43:23 GMT
I just think it was a very different age. It's about position and power, people who had any kind of position of power, whether it be teacher, coach, social worker, we always assumed to be trustworthy and were assumed to have earned the right to have the power that goes with it. From my own first hand experience, working class culture was always deferential in this way, and looked up to people in positions of trust and power, and the fact is most people were trustworthy but other's clearly abused this and exploited it badly. Like you say it would be considered an honour, or privilege to be taken under their wing and the other thing that was exploited was the fact that football was one of the few outlets for most working class kids to fulfil their dreams. This was also exploited. When I was a kid there was nothing else that mattered, or existed in the world tbh. My world revolved around it. Growing up, I could easily imagine myself and my family being starstruck by the likes of Barry Bennell. Absolutely Spit, I'd say naivety played a massive part. When I was a kid we were out playing all day not a care in the world and as long as you were back before it went dark then all was good. It's sad but no way will my boy have that kind of freedom because I cannot let that happen. I'm terrified something may happen to him. On a side note I was at South Cheshire college for a year 86 -87 and the rumours about Crewe were rife then. H Yep, we used to play in the fields until you literally couldn't see the ball, from the ages of 10&11 and then a walk home in the dark on my own, just me and the football. There were younger than that sometimes. Used to get it in the ear when I got home but my parents never stopped us from going to play and used to just tell us not to talk to strangers. No mobiles then either of course. (when I were a lad !!!) I remember sometimes you'd get a parent coming to the top of the fields and yelling their kids names in pitch black, you knew they were in trouble.
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Post by RAF on Mar 24, 2021 11:45:27 GMT
Absolutely Spit, I'd say naivety played a massive part. When I was a kid we were out playing all day not a care in the world and as long as you were back before it went dark then all was good. It's sad but no way will my boy have that kind of freedom because I cannot let that happen. I'm terrified something may happen to him. On a side note I was at South Cheshire college for a year 86 -87 and the rumours about Crewe were rife then. H Yep, we used to play in the fields until you literally couldn't see the ball, from the ages of 10&11 and then a walk home in the dark on my own, just me and the football. There were younger than that sometimes. Used to get it in the ear when I got home but my parents never stopped us from going to play and used to just tell us not to talk to strangers. No mobiles then either of course. (when I were a lad !!!) I remember sometimes you'd get a parent coming to the top of the fields and yelling their kids names in pitch black, you knew they were in trouble. It's sad our children or even their children won't see that kind of innocent freedom. H
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Post by outspaced on Mar 24, 2021 12:01:45 GMT
Paul Stewart is clearly a broken man. He tore Stoke apart one Christmas game at the Vic. I remember thinking what a striker he was and David White was a terrific player. Whether people agree or not they both got an England cap, the pinnacle of a player's career especially in those times. That they rose that high is testament to their character. Paul said that being out on the pitch blocked it out.
Steve Walters had me though, he could have gone far as he was a cracking player but admitted that the drive to do it wasn't there because of what happened to him. Just tragic.
I think it's safe to say that many young lads have probably taken their own lives because of these monsters and nobody will ever know that was the reason why.
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Post by nantwichstokie on Mar 24, 2021 12:39:22 GMT
I used to go down playing at Crewe post Bennell and Steve Walters Dad Chris used to take training a lot of the time. Seemed a top bloke. What got me was when Steve Walters admitted that he'd told his Dad Chris but he'd just blanked what he'd been told. Shocking. I'm not sure if they spoke much more again before Chris died.
Anyone playing Junior football around that era late 80's and early 90's was well aware of all the rumours. Darios bum boys etc... Dario G is a proper oddball. Although I don't think he's a proper wrong un. I'm sure that would of come out by now with all this coming to light.
The former chief executive of Crewe tried calling it out at the time. As seen on the doc Dario wouldn't have it. Its fair enough the chief exec coming on now saying that he'd heard rumours but why didn't he pursue it further?
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Mar 24, 2021 13:05:08 GMT
Paul Stewart is clearly a broken man. He tore Stoke apart one Christmas game at the Vic. I remember thinking what a striker he was and David White was a terrific player. Whether people agree or not they both got an England cap, the pinnacle of a player's career especially in those times. That they rose that high is testament to their character. Paul said that being out on the pitch blocked it out. Steve Walters had me though, he could have gone far as he was a cracking player but admitted that the drive to do it wasn't there because of what happened to him. Just tragic. I think it's safe to say that many young lads have probably taken their own lives because of these monsters and nobody will ever know that was the reason why. Made me wonder what demons Gary Speed was dealing with to take his own life. Saddest programme I have ever watched. I hope as long as I live I never watch anything that sad again.
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Post by outspaced on Mar 24, 2021 13:40:26 GMT
Paul Stewart is clearly a broken man. He tore Stoke apart one Christmas game at the Vic. I remember thinking what a striker he was and David White was a terrific player. Whether people agree or not they both got an England cap, the pinnacle of a player's career especially in those times. That they rose that high is testament to their character. Paul said that being out on the pitch blocked it out. Steve Walters had me though, he could have gone far as he was a cracking player but admitted that the drive to do it wasn't there because of what happened to him. Just tragic. I think it's safe to say that many young lads have probably taken their own lives because of these monsters and nobody will ever know that was the reason why. Made me wonder what demons Gary Speed was dealing with to take his own life. Saddest programme I have ever watched. I hope as long as I live I never watch anything that sad again. People have said that Gary Speed was at one time involved with coaching with Bennell. I don't know if that's true. If it is then you'd think that would be a big part in his passing. It's horrific that people who would put your trust in do these things. Sport coaches, The Church, Social Workers, Police etc. I suppose those with these urges see that getting into these services gives them opportunity to carry them out because the youngsters will be under their spell and believe that bad things will happen to them if they tell anybody. Most of those who did though were just dismissed. It's all so sad.
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Post by pottersrule on Mar 24, 2021 14:09:38 GMT
Yep, we used to play in the fields until you literally couldn't see the ball, from the ages of 10&11 and then a walk home in the dark on my own, just me and the football. There were younger than that sometimes. Used to get it in the ear when I got home but my parents never stopped us from going to play and used to just tell us not to talk to strangers. No mobiles then either of course. (when I were a lad !!!) I remember sometimes you'd get a parent coming to the top of the fields and yelling their kids names in pitch black, you knew they were in trouble. It's sad our children or even their children won't see that kind of innocent freedom. H I was the first intake at Pikemere school when the new school opened in 1968/69 and all the kids walked to school in those days. Today you can't let your kids of primary school age out of your sight,and so they are mostly driven to school.It's bloody chaos driving any where near the area from 2.30-3.30. Used to love the walk home from school in those care free days,and as you say so bloody sad today's youngsters won't experience it.
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Post by Davef on Mar 24, 2021 14:44:29 GMT
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Post by spiderpuss on Mar 24, 2021 14:52:34 GMT
I just think it was a very different age. It's about position and power, people who had any kind of position of power, whether it be teacher, coach, social worker, we always assumed to be trustworthy and were assumed to have earned the right to have the power that goes with it. From my own first hand experience, working class culture was always deferential in this way, and looked up to people in positions of trust and power, and the fact is most people were trustworthy but other's clearly abused this and exploited it badly. Like you say it would be considered an honour, or privilege to be taken under their wing and the other thing that was exploited was the fact that football was one of the few outlets for most working class kids to fulfil their dreams. This was also exploited. When I was a kid there was nothing else that mattered, or existed in the world tbh. My world revolved around it. Growing up, I could easily imagine myself and my family being starstruck by the likes of Barry Bennell. Absolutely Spit, I'd say naivety played a massive part. When I was a kid we were out playing all day not a care in the world and as long as you were back before it went dark then all was good. It's sad but no way will my boy have that kind of freedom because I cannot let that happen. I'm terrified something may happen to him. On a side note I was at South Cheshire college for a year 86 -87 and the rumours about Crewe were rife then. H Agree worked in Crewe in that period and it was "common knowledge".
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Post by RAF on Mar 24, 2021 15:14:20 GMT
It's sad our children or even their children won't see that kind of innocent freedom. H I was the first intake at Pikemere school when the new school opened in 1968/69 and all the kids walked to school in those days. Today you can't let your kids of primary school age out of your sight,and so they are mostly driven to school.It's bloody chaos driving any where near the area from 2.30-3.30. Used to love the walk home from school in those care free days,and as you say so bloody sad today's youngsters won't experience it. My boy goes to Pikemere and I live on Hassall Road, the police have been out every day this week as youngsters have been approached by some dodgy fucker. I swear to Christ if I get hold of them I will be doing time. I see the traffic carnage every day, sad madness. H
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Post by pottersrule on Mar 24, 2021 18:06:15 GMT
I was the first intake at Pikemere school when the new school opened in 1968/69 and all the kids walked to school in those days. Today you can't let your kids of primary school age out of your sight,and so they are mostly driven to school.It's bloody chaos driving any where near the area from 2.30-3.30. Used to love the walk home from school in those care free days,and as you say so bloody sad today's youngsters won't experience it. My boy goes to Pikemere and I live on Hassall Road, the police have been out every day this week as youngsters have been approached by some dodgy fucker. I swear to Christ if I get hold of them I will be doing time. I see the traffic carnage every day, sad madness. H My lads partner is in Cheshire police and she was telling me about some scumbag approaching kids, it's every parents nightmare.I'm not saying kids weren't harmed in my day but,it was a rarity. I attended Cranberry lane before Pikemere was built and as an eight year old walked from college road every morning with a friend and my ten year old sister.That unfortunately couldn't happen today.What a sad fuckin world it has become.
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 24, 2021 18:35:46 GMT
God that was a difficult watch. I know they were more innocent times, but I can't imagine at any point how a parent wouldn't have alarm bells ringing at the point a coach started inviting young boys to stay at his house. My lad plays football and I've always trusted his coaches and got on well with them- he's often at training in their care and it's never even crossed my mind that they're any sort of threat to him. However, there is no way I'd ever even entertain the thought of allowing him to stay at their houses under any circumstances. Those parents will no doubt be suffering terrible guilt about what happened. I don't wish to imply they're bad parents- it just goes to show how people don't always behave rationally and can get swept along into conforming with what others are doing, assuming that because other parents are letting their boys stay over at a coach's house, it must be OK. There were many parents back in the day that thought it was a big plus point with crewe, that coaches involved with the 1st team took such an interest in their development, even having them staying at their house pre match. Of course you wouldn't let it happen but from age of 9 kids at these clubs are travelling abroad with coaches and staying in hotels without parents. If your child is in that environment do you let them go or deprive them of the opportunity? I think there's a big difference between travelling abroad with the team though and staying over at a coach's house. It's the same as kids going camping with scouts etc, or on an overnight trip with school- you'd be being over-cautious IMO if you refused to let your child go on those things. I guess we're just so much more aware of abuse these days than people were back then. As a parent, you'd never forgive yourself for putting your child in a situation like that, even if it was done purely out of naivety.
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Post by leicspotter on Mar 24, 2021 19:01:47 GMT
I would hope that nowadays the DBS (previously CRB) checks would go a long way to putting parents' minds at ease...and, more importantly, protecting the kids
I guess these too may be fallible, but 'back in the day' they didn't exist at all
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 24, 2021 19:21:24 GMT
There were many parents back in the day that thought it was a big plus point with crewe, that coaches involved with the 1st team took such an interest in their development, even having them staying at their house pre match. Of course you wouldn't let it happen but from age of 9 kids at these clubs are travelling abroad with coaches and staying in hotels without parents. If your child is in that environment do you let them go or deprive them of the opportunity? I think there's a big difference between travelling abroad with the team though and staying over at a coach's house. It's the same as kids going camping with scouts etc, or on an overnight trip with school- you'd be being over-cautious IMO if you refused to let your child go on those things. I guess we're just so much more aware of abuse these days than people were back then. As a parent, you'd never forgive yourself for putting your child in a situation like that, even if it was done purely out of naivety. The parent element, as a parent myself, is the most traumatic. Paul Stewart's mum, David Lake and protecting his dad because he knew he'd kill Bennell and the Southampton players mum. Sad, harrowing and very traumatic viewing for any parent of children involved in sport, scouts, church etc.
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Post by RAF on Mar 24, 2021 21:36:29 GMT
My boy goes to Pikemere and I live on Hassall Road, the police have been out every day this week as youngsters have been approached by some dodgy fucker. I swear to Christ if I get hold of them I will be doing time. I see the traffic carnage every day, sad madness. H My lads partner is in Cheshire police and she was telling me about some scumbag approaching kids, it's every parents nightmare.I'm not saying kids weren't harmed in my day but,it was a rarity. I attended Cranberry lane before Pikemere was built and as an eight year old walked from college road every morning with a friend and my ten year old sister.That unfortunately couldn't happen today.What a sad fuckin world it has become. I'm not sure whether it was a rarity or it just didn't get reported or the awareness wasn't there as it is now. I went to Cranberry btw. H
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Post by kustokie on Mar 24, 2021 23:30:51 GMT
It's an odd one for me. I've never openly abused any player at a game directly or online. I feel guilt for walking away and thinking he didn't care about his 'job' when it is now so obvious of all the demons that he was carrying. Watching that last night, it is amazing he carried on for so long - and to be honest even carried on and made it into professional football. The bigger worry for me is how many are in professional football now that are going through the same? I don't want to go over the top but watching that last night made me feel guilty for following the sport and putting money into the game that has let so many people down and wrecked so many lives. Indirectly, i'm part of the problem. It’s not just football mate it was obviously rife back then in all walks of life as has since been proven It’s just that like racism football has “taken it on” and is no longer keeping quiet It is still going on. The revelations of the American womens gymnastics team abused by the the team’s doctor and coaches showed it had been a systemic problem for years.
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Post by skip on Mar 24, 2021 23:50:37 GMT
My lads partner is in Cheshire police and she was telling me about some scumbag approaching kids, it's every parents nightmare.I'm not saying kids weren't harmed in my day but,it was a rarity. I attended Cranberry lane before Pikemere was built and as an eight year old walked from college road every morning with a friend and my ten year old sister.That unfortunately couldn't happen today.What a sad fuckin world it has become. I'm not sure whether it was a rarity or it just didn't get reported or the awareness wasn't there as it is now. I went to Cranberry btw. H I concur. This programme in itself, is all the evidence we need to know it was rife, but unspoken of. Child Line was set up in the mid 1980s for a reason - society had finally begun to admit to itself that not all was rosey and innocent. I too was part of the football on the rec until dark generation but we knew that for every old boy who'd sit on a bench and watch up play footie for completely innocent reasons, that there was the creepy fuckers down near the swings. Nothing was ever done, you were just told to avoid them. There was another who'd prop up the shallow end in the local swimming pool in the summer holidays. Just gawping at us. He was never kicked out, or asked why he was there. Looking back, fucking hell, what were the responsible adults thinking? Just hoping that bad shit doesn't happen to good kids, I don't know.
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Post by RF10 on Mar 25, 2021 8:12:31 GMT
Watched the first episode last night, bloody hell. One of the most haunting things I've ever watched, those poor people and family's. How they were almost able to pretend normality for so long is beyond words.
After watching it I struggled to sleep properly and kept thinking of all the situations that were shown. Whilst they are all incredibly brave, the courage for Andy Woodward to come out initially was incredible. You can tell the demons released for so many people when he did.
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Post by flea79 on Mar 25, 2021 10:03:09 GMT
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Post by jeycov on Mar 25, 2021 10:15:11 GMT
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Post by nott1 on Mar 25, 2021 10:33:05 GMT
I do wonder why people never seem to exact revenge when they became adults, I'm sure` I would go looking for them if it happened to me. Perhaps it's so upsetting to them they don't feel able!
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Post by flea79 on Mar 25, 2021 10:40:06 GMT
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Mar 25, 2021 11:57:34 GMT
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Post by lordb on Mar 25, 2021 12:04:14 GMT
I do wonder why people never seem to exact revenge when they became adults, I'm sure` I would go looking for them if it happened to me. Perhaps it's so upsetting to them they don't feel able! not sure revenge is what they need
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Post by Davef on Mar 25, 2021 12:32:09 GMT
Not sure about the use of the word "Survivors" in the statement. "Victims" would probably have been better.
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2021 12:35:04 GMT
This world can be a dark place at times. Huge sympathy for those affected by this.
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Post by stokiejoeofalsager on Mar 25, 2021 13:27:45 GMT
I do wonder why people never seem to exact revenge when they became adults, I'm sure` I would go looking for them if it happened to me. Perhaps it's so upsetting to them they don't feel able! I’d presume there’s still that inbuilt power dynamic there. You could see that when they had to get a connecting train in Milton Keynes even the possibility of being within a few miles of him put them back into that same mindset.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2021 13:47:40 GMT
Andy Woodward looks like a shadow of a man. Just watching now. Walters was as they sais the golden boy at Crewe and often wondered what happened to him. I think will reserve my opinion on John Bowler's attitude
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