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Post by stokerstayinup on Dec 12, 2020 18:23:50 GMT
Swapping Thompson and Tymon with Clucas and McClean would see a noticeable increase in goals wouldn't it? They'd improve us, definitely. And they are losses. But not sure they've really been on their game this season. They shouldn't be losses on the Campbell scale. McClean's been involved in the previous 4 games in this run of tedious games to little effect - and Clucas has scored just the one this year, hasn't he? (although it was a beauty) This run of Wednesday, Wycombe, Boro, Cardiff and today has been as dull a run of games as we've seen for years. 8 points from 5 games is no disaster. Just the 3 goals though - and about as many times that we've strung together a passing move or I've moved to the edge of my seat during the game. I don't think it's about to get any better entertainment wise tbh.Campbell was the main source of excitement and his finishing from positions that aren't to be expected meant we were in a higher position than we probably deserved.It's a mental league though so who knows,especially if we get anywhere near our first team. Demerai Gray on loan would be a great starting point in Jan.
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Post by nottsover60 on Dec 12, 2020 18:25:28 GMT
If it gets results I’m not too fussed about champagne football. How can some not see the correlation of poor results with the number of injuries? Derby had plenty of injuries too. Injuries is an excuse to a point but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to win games, Derby tried. What Curtis Davies injured, Shinnie suspended Lawrence going off as against Campbell, Clucas, McLean, JOM, Gregory, Batth, Davies, Gunn, Allen plus playing Fletcher and Thompson when clearly not match fit? I don't think their list compares to ours to be honest. At least 6 of our unavailable players would have started today.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 12, 2020 18:26:55 GMT
It’s not though. Who have we missed? The midfield has got better. The right back has improved. The goalie is the same if not better. We missed Campbell today. We missed Vokes today not sure why he was dropped
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Dec 12, 2020 18:29:04 GMT
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Post by a on Dec 12, 2020 18:29:04 GMT
No it is ridiculous. Clucas got 11 last season and we haven’t missed him? Right back, you love edwards and hate smith so a void comment. Bursik isn’t better than Davies. We’re also missing Mikel, who would’ve been a better proposition than Thompson. So yes it is a ridiculous comment, but once again you’re ignorant of your own biases No he’s been awful when he’s played this season and that’s where we should judge. Collins has been way better than Smith. What’s it got to do with Edwards? We haven’t missed Davies in the slightest or Gunn. It hasn’t hindered us. It’s not about who’s better. He would have been but since Tymon and Cousins have been in midfield we’ve actually had a midfield that have protected the back 4. We haven’t missed him. Bias? It’s not about bias 😂😂 You love Tom Edwards and Smith taking his place seems to have upset you. Haven’t missed Davies? Made 2.5 saves per game and conceded 1 per game, Bursik 1 save per game 1.1 conceded. I know you don’t like stats when they don’t support your opinion but that shows that Davies has faced more shots and saved more of them. “It’s not about who’s better” are you ok? Of course it is, that’s why you play your best players you lemon 😂 Tymon has played well but I’d take Mikel any day over him or cousins. And Thompson was preferred today and was poor. As I’ve already said, you are blind to your own bias so I won’t repeat myself further with regards to that. Please reply so I can let you have the last word that you so desperately need.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:29:47 GMT
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Post by a on Dec 12, 2020 18:29:47 GMT
Derby had plenty of injuries too. Injuries is an excuse to a point but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to win games, Derby tried. What Curtis Davies injured, Shinnie suspended Lawrence going off as against Campbell, Clucas, McLean, JOM, Gregory, Batth, Davies, Gunn, Allen plus playing Fletcher and Thompson when clearly not match fit? I don't think their list compares to ours to be honest. At least 6 of our unavailable players would have started today. Yea I did think that in terms of injuries Curtis is a big loss but we’ve got much bigger issues
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Dec 12, 2020 18:32:40 GMT
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milky likes this
Post by liamo on Dec 12, 2020 18:32:40 GMT
We barely beat Wycombe and lost to Cardiff, in a game where we’re lacking quality and just need a single chance to win the game it’s not unreasonable to want more from your attacking players Again though it comes down to you criticising him because you expect him to carry us as an attacking threat ,especially without Campbell. He is a good player and we are lucky to have him but he isnt Maradona, he isnt even Arnautovic or Shaqiri. He wont win games single handedly and you're going to stay very disappointed if you expect him to. But he’s won us games before? If he doesn’t then who will?
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Dec 12, 2020 18:32:49 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 12, 2020 18:32:49 GMT
No he’s been awful when he’s played this season and that’s where we should judge. Collins has been way better than Smith. What’s it got to do with Edwards? We haven’t missed Davies in the slightest or Gunn. It hasn’t hindered us. It’s not about who’s better. He would have been but since Tymon and Cousins have been in midfield we’ve actually had a midfield that have protected the back 4. We haven’t missed him. Bias? It’s not about bias 😂😂 You love Tom Edwards and Smith taking his place seems to have upset you. Haven’t missed Davies? Made 2.5 saves per game and conceded 1 per game, Bursik 1 save per game 1.1 conceded. I know you don’t like stats when they don’t support your opinion but that shows that Davies has faced more shots and saved more of them. “It’s not about who’s better” are you ok? Of course it is, that’s why you play your best players you lemon 😂 Tymon has played well but I’d take Mikel any day over him or cousins. And Thompson was preferred today and was poor. As I’ve already said, you are blind to your own bias so I won’t repeat myself further with regards to that. Please reply so I can let you have the last word that you so desperately need. It’s got nothing to do with Tom Edwards 😂😂 Bursik has been excellent on the whole and we haven’t missed Davies or Gunn (who is better than the pair of them). It’s not been an issue. You seem to be missing the point here though. I would too but we have missed Mikel have we? Thompson is dogshit, we know this. God and only knows why he started. I’m not blinded by anything. I just don’t think we’ve missed the injured players. You just don’t seem to get the point and understand the different between rating a player and missing them.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 12, 2020 18:34:25 GMT
It might have been dull but these are the sort of games we have been conceding late winners in previous years
A solid point
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Dec 12, 2020 18:37:51 GMT
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Post by milky on Dec 12, 2020 18:37:51 GMT
Again though it comes down to you criticising him because you expect him to carry us as an attacking threat ,especially without Campbell. He is a good player and we are lucky to have him but he isnt Maradona, he isnt even Arnautovic or Shaqiri. He wont win games single handedly and you're going to stay very disappointed if you expect him to. But he’s won us games before? If he doesn’t then who will? Well that's a completely different discussion. At the moment no one ,at least until Fletcher gets back up to speed. It's unfair to put the burden on him to do it all the time though just because he is largely surrounded by mediocrity.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:39:07 GMT
Post by toppercorner on Dec 12, 2020 18:39:07 GMT
My personal thoughts are that O'Neill does have to shoulder part of the blame for the poor performances. It's been going on too long, and more importantly, prior to the major injuries we have picked up recently. This isn't some knee jerk, "he's wank, fuck him off" kind of a post, quite the opposite, I think he's perfect for us and over the last 12 months saved us from further humiliation; however, we look nowhere near as accomplished as we did last season. We seem to be fighting as a team together, we seem fitter (although still not quite as fit as other teams) but we just aren't as threatening, or good. The first half, it was like 11 dogs chasing a balloon. The ball was pinging everywhere, directionless headers in the middle of the park, inability to trap a ball, inability to pass it properly without it either a) being to hard and bouncing off the player your passing too, or b) not getting there. Far too much hit and hope up the pitch to no one. The second half was better but why does it take one awful 1st half before we ramp it up in the second? and his subs? fuck me MON! We can have 5 yet he didn't make any until the very end of the game, and then they weren't the ones we're crying out for. For me that sort of mind set is costing us. Do Bournemouth and Norwich wait until the 76th minute before they mak subs, change tired legs for fresh blood? Do they fuck, they're proactive. very poor today and it's pissed me off. What would you have done differently? made subs earlier made more effective use of teh subs impressed upon the team that the last few games we haven't got going until 10 minutes into the second half, and instead we should start 'hungry' got the staff to tell them to get a foot on the ball, be composed, and move for passes. it's just been sloppy. And i belive its cost us. when he get its right, he really gets it right, but there's been too many times recently where tactical changes haven't been made, or made far far too late.
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 12, 2020 18:42:33 GMT
I present to you.......
“It’s getting worse every game
Boring, dull, shit football again.
More negative shite from the manager.
Absolute dross yet again. One paced negative crap with no intention of winning of that game
We have a manager used to managing underdogs who are just grateful to be there. For Stoke City, in what is the second tier of English football after a 10 year spell in the top flight, it's simply not good enough.
There certainly doesn’t look like a lot of coaching has gone into our side, we haven’t got the foggiest what to do when we have the ball.”
A manager of a side rooted to the bottom of the table? A manager of a side unaffected by a tsunami of significant injuries? A manager of a side that hasn’t been in the top three form teams virtually since he took over?
No.
Possibly the best manager we’ve had in decades. We’re not a very patient or understanding lot are we?
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Dec 12, 2020 18:46:21 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 12, 2020 18:46:21 GMT
I present to you....... “It’s getting worse every game Boring, dull, shit football again. More negative shite from the manager. Absolute dross yet again. One paced negative crap with no intention of winning of that game We have a manager used to managing underdogs who are just grateful to be there. For Stoke City, in what is the second tier of English football after a 10 year spell in the top flight, it's simply not good enough. There certainly doesn’t look like a lot of coaching has gone into our side, we haven’t got the foggiest what to do when we have the ball.” A manager of a side rooted to the bottom of the table? A manager of a side unaffected by a tsunami of significant injuries? A manager of a side that hasn’t been in the top three form teams virtually since he took over? No. Possibly the best manager we’ve had in decades. We’re not a very patient or understanding lot are we? He is a very good manager but he’s been very average this season.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:48:01 GMT
Post by boskampsflaps on Dec 12, 2020 18:48:01 GMT
I'm guessing counter but Brown isn't up to much and Tymon seems more comfortable in the middle, he needs to start giving Verlinden and Ince a go if thats what he's after. Absolutely. I think we are sorted pretty much in defence, maybe besides Fox, midfield and attack is where we’ve had the biggest disruption but I fear Ince is done although he looked bright today, and verlinden has a lot of hype so he could be an asset. Need a decent transfer window really to stay competitive All I want to see in the transfer window is a DM, lose Cousins and the midfield will go back to looking weak and easly played through as before after that, as you suggest, a left back would be good. Given the ffp I think thats the best we can hope for.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:50:31 GMT
Post by boskampsflaps on Dec 12, 2020 18:50:31 GMT
Derby had plenty of injuries too. Injuries is an excuse to a point but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to win games, Derby tried. What Curtis Davies injured, Shinnie suspended Lawrence going off as against Campbell, Clucas, McLean, JOM, Gregory, Batth, Davies, Gunn, Allen plus playing Fletcher and Thompson when clearly not match fit? I don't think their list compares to ours to be honest. At least 6 of our unavailable players would have started today. So we missed one key player, two at a push, and it all went to shit. Going off tonight you'd think it was Derby trying to sneek into the top 6.
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Post by Ron on Dec 12, 2020 18:54:22 GMT
Yes it was dire but what does anyone expect with what we had available?! In the end a point away from home against any side isn’t a bad result. Let’s not forget we have only conceded in 2 of our away games- against Watford and Swansea. Give a bit of credit where it’s due.
However- I think we all agree we’d like to see us retain the ball much better.
Plus we had some awfully limited footballers out there today... in fact that’s one of the weakest midfields I’ve ever seen us field... although credit to Cousins he does a decent job.
But he, Thompson, Tymon and Brown are incredibly average league One/ two footballers.
Any point gained when having play all 4 of the above is a bonus for me.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:17:59 GMT
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 12, 2020 19:17:59 GMT
I present to you....... “It’s getting worse every game Boring, dull, shit football again. More negative shite from the manager. Absolute dross yet again. One paced negative crap with no intention of winning of that game We have a manager used to managing underdogs who are just grateful to be there. For Stoke City, in what is the second tier of English football after a 10 year spell in the top flight, it's simply not good enough. There certainly doesn’t look like a lot of coaching has gone into our side, we haven’t got the foggiest what to do when we have the ball.” A manager of a side rooted to the bottom of the table? A manager of a side unaffected by a tsunami of significant injuries? A manager of a side that hasn’t been in the top three form teams virtually since he took over? No. Possibly the best manager we’ve had in decades. We’re not a very patient or understanding lot are we? He is a very good manager but he’s been very average this season. He’s the messiah. He’s just occasionally a very naughty boy. I’ll let him off though.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:19:31 GMT
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Post by bgreen13 on Dec 12, 2020 19:19:31 GMT
The tides turning.... Again
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Dec 12, 2020 19:23:16 GMT
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Post by a on Dec 12, 2020 19:23:16 GMT
The tides turning.... Again I think some have forgotten Nathan Jones exists
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Dec 12, 2020 19:28:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 19:28:25 GMT
It’s getting worse every game We have fewer players every game. The one's that came back today looked off the pace (barring Souttar) and probably rushed into the team. Without Campbell and a fit and firing Fletcher, we were always going to look a bit crap.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:36:03 GMT
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Post by foxysgloves on Dec 12, 2020 19:36:03 GMT
It’s getting worse every game We have fewer players every game. The one's that came back today looked off the pace (barring Souttar) and probably rushed into the team. Without Campbell and a fit and firing Fletcher, we were always going to look a bit crap. Yeah but. We’re Stoke. We’re 8th. They’re shit. Etc.
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Dec 12, 2020 19:36:32 GMT
Post by GeneralFaye on Dec 12, 2020 19:36:32 GMT
I think we did try and take it to them in the second half, if we had Campbell on I'm sure we would've scored. Taking in the circumstances, I'll take it and move on.
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Post by StaffordPotter on Dec 12, 2020 19:38:01 GMT
The tides turning.... Again Is it fuck.
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Post by nottsover60 on Dec 12, 2020 19:52:42 GMT
What Curtis Davies injured, Shinnie suspended Lawrence going off as against Campbell, Clucas, McLean, JOM, Gregory, Batth, Davies, Gunn, Allen plus playing Fletcher and Thompson when clearly not match fit? I don't think their list compares to ours to be honest. At least 6 of our unavailable players would have started today. So we missed one key player, two at a push, and it all went to shit. Going off tonight you'd think it was Derby trying to sneek into the top 6. Gk - key position and good as Bursik has been he's not ona level with Davies or Gunn for experience. Campbell - probably one of the 3 best attacking players in the Championship at the moment. McLean - key player driving us forward and would have helped Fox with their fast winger. Clucas - again keyplayer for driving us forward, providing incisive passes and a goal threat arriving late in the penalty area. JOM - best player we've got at winning second ball which no one else can match. His forward passes are a class above Championship level plus he has a physical presence retaining the ball, calming influence and way of talking to referees which we miss. In my opinion his loss is almost on a par with Campbell's. Allen - if he comes back as good as he was pre injury will walk into the team and would get into any other Championship team. I make that 6 key players. A win today was more vital to Derby than us I would argue. We are not going to be top 2 so keeping in touch with the play off places especially with players out is our aim and a point did that. May is the time we need to be in the top 6 not now. I'd rather have us keeping under the radar now. Derby needed to win to get out of the relegation zone. .
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Dec 13, 2020 1:41:30 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 13, 2020 1:41:30 GMT
So we missed one key player, two at a push, and it all went to shit. Going off tonight you'd think it was Derby trying to sneek into the top 6. Gk - key position and good as Bursik has been he's not ona level with Davies or Gunn for experience. Campbell - probably one of the 3 best attacking players in the Championship at the moment. McLean - key player driving us forward and would have helped Fox with their fast winger. Clucas - again keyplayer for driving us forward, providing incisive passes and a goal threat arriving late in the penalty area. JOM - best player we've got at winning second ball which no one else can match. His forward passes are a class above Championship level plus he has a physical presence retaining the ball, calming influence and way of talking to referees which we miss. In my opinion his loss is almost on a par with Campbell's. Allen - if he comes back as good as he was pre injury will walk into the team and would get into any other Championship team. I make that 6 key players. A win today was more vital to Derby than us I would argue. We are not going to be top 2 so keeping in touch with the play off places especially with players out is our aim and a point did that. May is the time we need to be in the top 6 not now. I'd rather have us keeping under the radar now. Derby needed to win to get out of the relegation zone. . We haven’t missed either keeper. Clucas has been awful this season. Tymon has played better centrally. I genuinely thought Fox was concussed and that was the reason he was so bad today. He didn’t look like he knew he was a lot of the time. Cousins has come in for JOM and the midfield has improved with it as he can defend. They should play together mind. And we haven’t missed Allen at all.
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Post by potterpaul on Dec 13, 2020 4:36:55 GMT
It’s not though. Who have we missed? The midfield has got better. The right back has improved. The goalie is the same if not better. We missed Campbell today. Exactly, how can you miss a midfield that's hugely bypassed with hoof ball. Like you correctly point out the defensive shield as improved since the so called injury crisis, which this type of football demands. The midfield creation is being stifled rather than encouraged and allowed.
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Dec 13, 2020 5:46:21 GMT
Post by dirtclod on Dec 13, 2020 5:46:21 GMT
I do like this manager - his after game comments actually make sense. After reading the below - I'll take the point.
"We knew it'd be a difficult game coming here. We were running on fumes a little bit, to be honest - [Harry] Souttar, [Steven] Fletcher and [Jordan] Thompson came back into the team today having trained very little after injury.
"I was pleased overall that we didn't lose the game. I thought first half we were too passive, but second half we were much better and the game could have gone either way in the end.
"The positive was another clean sheet, which was good. On the day, we probably just didn't have enough quality when we had the opportunity to win the game."
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Dec 13, 2020 8:57:18 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 13, 2020 8:57:18 GMT
It’s not though. Who have we missed? The midfield has got better. The right back has improved. The goalie is the same if not better. We missed Campbell today. Exactly, how can you miss a midfield that's hugely bypassed with hoof ball. Like you correctly point out the defensive shield as improved since the so called injury crisis, which this type of football demands. The midfield creation is being stifled rather than encouraged and allowed. Exactly. You can’t miss something that wasn’t there in the first place. People keep mentioning Clucas and I love him but this season he’s been awful. We haven’t missed him in the slightest. We’ve missed last season’s version for sure but then we have when he’s been on.
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Dec 13, 2020 9:20:54 GMT
Post by nottsover60 on Dec 13, 2020 9:20:54 GMT
Gk - key position and good as Bursik has been he's not ona level with Davies or Gunn for experience. Campbell - probably one of the 3 best attacking players in the Championship at the moment. McLean - key player driving us forward and would have helped Fox with their fast winger. Clucas - again keyplayer for driving us forward, providing incisive passes and a goal threat arriving late in the penalty area. JOM - best player we've got at winning second ball which no one else can match. His forward passes are a class above Championship level plus he has a physical presence retaining the ball, calming influence and way of talking to referees which we miss. In my opinion his loss is almost on a par with Campbell's. Allen - if he comes back as good as he was pre injury will walk into the team and would get into any other Championship team. I make that 6 key players. A win today was more vital to Derby than us I would argue. We are not going to be top 2 so keeping in touch with the play off places especially with players out is our aim and a point did that. May is the time we need to be in the top 6 not now. I'd rather have us keeping under the radar now. Derby needed to win to get out of the relegation zone. . We haven’t missed either keeper. Clucas has been awful this season. Tymon has played better centrally. I genuinely thought Fox was concussed and that was the reason he was so bad today. He didn’t look like he knew he was a lot of the time. Cousins has come in for JOM and the midfield has improved with it as he can defend. They should play together mind. And we haven’t missed Allen at all. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I cannot fault any of the players who have come in but think the dynamics of the team have changed with them. For example confidence in Bursik isn't as high as the other two gk so we aren't passing back to him as much resulting in more long hopeful balls forward. Cousins has done a great job defensively and I would keep him there alongside or even behind Mikel who is a class above the rest. My husband (Vale not Stoke unfortunately) watched us the other week with me (loads of criticisms) but said he'd never rated Mikel particularly but his vision and use of the ball was really class (but then you'll say what would a Vale fan know). Clucas hasn't had a good season but was looking better after his first injury, links up well with the forwards, gets into the box more than our other midfield players so gives more support to the centre forward and even when playing badly scores goals as he has a better shot getting pace on them better than anyone bar Tyrese. So well as the back ups have played we have gone back to defending and hoofing with them in the team. By the way I agree with you about Allen but he will be straight back in and I have to admit he played well for O'Neill with more self discipline instead of trying to do everybody's job.
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Dec 13, 2020 9:23:15 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 13, 2020 9:23:15 GMT
We haven’t missed either keeper. Clucas has been awful this season. Tymon has played better centrally. I genuinely thought Fox was concussed and that was the reason he was so bad today. He didn’t look like he knew he was a lot of the time. Cousins has come in for JOM and the midfield has improved with it as he can defend. They should play together mind. And we haven’t missed Allen at all. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I cannot fault any of the players who have come in but think the dynamics of the team have changed with them. For example confidence in Bursik isn't as high as the other two gk so we aren't passing back to him as much resulting in more long hopeful balls forward. Cousins has done a great job defensively and I would keep him there alongside or even behind Mikel who is a class above the rest. My husband (Vale not Stoke unfortunately) watched us the other week with me (loads of criticisms) but said he'd never rated Mikel particularly but his vision and use of the ball was really class (but then you'll say what would a Vale fan know). Clucas hasn't had a good season but was looking better after his first injury, links up well with the forwards, gets into the box more than our other midfield players so gives more support to the centre forward and even when playing badly scores goals as he has a better shot getting pace on them better than anyone bar Tyrese. So we'll as the back ups have played we have gone back to defending and hoofing with them in the team. By the way I agree with you about Allen but he will be straight back in and I have to admit he played well for O'Neill with more self discipline instead of trying to do everybody's job. I just don’t think that is true re Bursik. There’s no evidence for it. Mikel’s passing has been excellent but I don’t think we’ve missed it. Indeed I don’t think we were using it particularly well before as we’ve bypassed the midfield for most of the season.
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Post by potterpaul on Dec 13, 2020 9:36:29 GMT
Exactly, how can you miss a midfield that's hugely bypassed with hoof ball. Like you correctly point out the defensive shield as improved since the so called injury crisis, which this type of football demands. The midfield creation is being stifled rather than encouraged and allowed. Exactly. You can’t miss something that wasn’t there in the first place. People keep mentioning Clucas and I love him but this season he’s been awful. We haven’t missed him in the slightest. We’ve missed last season’s version for sure but then we have when he’s been on. Yeah, at the moment it needs to be Cousins with any one from Mikel, Clucas or Tymon and really on form there's little difference between the 3 but Cousins as been superb at this level. Thompson seems to be in the Allen basket, where does he fit in that midfield? And it might be a case of he could offer something somewhere outside the midfield. The bonus is his age.
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