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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2020 16:28:26 GMT
How about the homeless ex servicemen in our Country would you be up for that to replace this BLM initiative for the next six months ?, I wonder if the fans would be booing it if we did ? You knowingly voted to make more of them homeless. I didn't notice that was part of the Tory Party election pledge, can you enlighten me with proof ?
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Post by sergeishtaniuk on Dec 6, 2020 16:29:20 GMT
Sorry mate, again, you've moved the goalpost, we were talking about the dead. I'd be up for whatever initiatives to help any homeless, whether they were in the military or not. If people booed a homeless initative, is that unacceptable or is it ok for people to boo? If they felt strongly enough about not supporting our ex service personnel then yes, I suspect some on here would be amongst them People couldnt get upset about it though, cant tell people what to think. If people think that ex service people should fend themselves, thats ok, everyone who disagrees is just a snowflake. You're not a snowflake, are you mate?
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Post by sergeishtaniuk on Dec 6, 2020 16:31:30 GMT
Sorry mate, did you not notice that I said yes, i dont think anyone should boo the anthem? You appear to have had your drivel already typed out and havent read what I wrote. No one said you had to a POC to be a victim of racism I specifically asked you if the booing of our national anthem by ROI fans is racist, you appear to have ignored what I wrote why ? Hi mate, did you not notice that I answered this and said yes? Probably more xenophobic than racist, but yes, its wrong. What about when English fans boo the Irish anthem, why have switched it around so the English are the victims? You appear to have forgotten to mention, once again, what relevance this has to the debate about kneeling.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 6, 2020 16:32:12 GMT
Im neither right nor left, straight down the middle me able to see and appreciate views from all partys. Not everthing is left or right, black and white etc etc. There is room in society to be more than just this or that. I can have views that differ from someone else without them labelling or stereotyping me. Whats needed is more conversation not name calling. But again, the 'pace and power' thing is also 'labelling'. That's why people take issue with that, stereotypical traits lazily referred to by many in the game. What's needed is more listening. Geoff stelling was talking about this on the radio last week , apparently he's been instructed by sky not to use this when describing a black player ! It's just political correctness in the extreme . How about a white player with pace and power .
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2020 16:33:07 GMT
If they felt strongly enough about not supporting our ex service personnel then yes, I suspect some on here would be amongst them People couldnt get upset about it though, cant tell people what to think. If people think that ex service people should fend themselves, thats ok, everyone who disagrees is just a snowflake. You're not a snowflake, are you mate? No problem with people expressing their feelings on anything at all, it's others like yourself who have taken on that mantra, no not a snowflake gammon apparently and yourself mate ?
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Post by sergeishtaniuk on Dec 6, 2020 16:34:39 GMT
But that would involve listening to black people, understanding why what sounds benign to us is actually offensive to them, and then taking steps to change. If this thread shows anything, its that people like our mate Lee are too selfish to do this. He likes labelling black people with stereotypes, why should he have to be the one to change?! Would you like a list of black commentators who are strongly opposed to BLM and taking the knee, and hold views similar to those expressed in my last post? Or do you not mean listening to that kind of black person? I could find you some people who are strongly opposed to killing Hitler and hold views that are similair to those expressed by Hitler. However, the majority think he was evil. You can find someone to justify any opinion you hold. Should we listen to the tiny minority who agree with you or the vast majority who agree with me? Bless, I know you're trying.
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Post by sergeishtaniuk on Dec 6, 2020 16:35:33 GMT
People couldnt get upset about it though, cant tell people what to think. If people think that ex service people should fend themselves, thats ok, everyone who disagrees is just a snowflake. You're not a snowflake, are you mate? No problem with people expressing their feelings on anything at all, it's others like yourself who have taken on that mantra, no not a snowflake gammon apparently and yourself mate ? So you have no problem with players kneeling to express their feelings on racial equality? Seem quite upset about it
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2020 16:37:47 GMT
I specifically asked you if the booing of our national anthem by ROI fans is racist, you appear to have ignored what I wrote why ? Hi mate, did you not notice that I answered this and said yes? Probably more xenophobic than racist, but yes, its wrong. What about when English fans boo the Irish anthem, why have switched it around so the English are the victims? You appear to have forgotten to mention, once again, what relevance this has to the debate about kneeling. You are the one banging on about racism regarding fans booing "taking the knee", it's a free country people are allowed to show their feelings in any way they choose to or at least they were without being labelled by people who are following the media narrative.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2020 16:40:22 GMT
No problem with people expressing their feelings on anything at all, it's others like yourself who have taken on that mantra, no not a snowflake gammon apparently and yourself mate ? So you have no problem with players kneeling to express their feelings on racial equality? Seem quite upset about it Don't really care about taking the knee even though I believe it has run it's course, I do object to players giving Black Power salutes on a football pitch for the reasons already given.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 6, 2020 16:44:51 GMT
Would you like a list of black commentators who are strongly opposed to BLM and taking the knee, and hold views similar to those expressed in my last post? Or do you not mean listening to that kind of black person? I could find you some people who are strongly opposed to killing Hitler and hold views that are similair to those expressed by Hitler. However, the majority think he was evil. You can find someone to justify any opinion you hold. Should we listen to the tiny minority who agree with you or the vast majority who agree with me? Bless, I know you're trying. So not that kind of black person then, I appreciate the confirmation. When you say “listen to black people” you actually mean “listen to black people who behave the way I expect them to, and dismiss any who don’t conform as some kind of Hitler apologists”. Disgraceful. And you’re going on about stereotyping people.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 6, 2020 16:45:26 GMT
But again, the 'pace and power' thing is also 'labelling'. That's why people take issue with that, stereotypical traits lazily referred to by many in the game. What's needed is more listening. Geoff stelling was talking about this on the radio last week , apparently he's been instructed by sky not to use this when describing a black player ! It's just political correctness in the extreme . How about a white player with pace and power . I think the problem is that it’s become a lazy stereotype to use that in connection with black footballers in general, even in cases where it isn’t true. Pogba is an example. He often doesn’t do himself any favours with his lethargic performances but even when he’s playing well, I’ve seen him take pelters from the likes of Souness for basically not being Patrick Vieira, Sulley Muntari, Moussa Sissoko etc- an all-action box to box tough tackler. That’s not the kind of midfielder he is - he’s more of a playmaker - but the perception of what he ‘should be’ as a black central midfielder seems somehow to be used against him.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 6, 2020 16:45:30 GMT
You knowingly voted to make more of them homeless. I didn't notice that was part of the Tory Party election pledge, can you enlighten me with proof ? Well is it a problem or not? The Tories have been in power for ten years and you highlighted this an issue that concerns you but you decided you didn't care enough to want to change it. Save us your transparent crocodile tears.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 6, 2020 16:45:38 GMT
But again, the 'pace and power' thing is also 'labelling'. That's why people take issue with that, stereotypical traits lazily referred to by many in the game. What's needed is more listening. Geoff stelling was talking about this on the radio last week , apparently he's been instructed by sky not to use this when describing a black player ! It's just political correctness in the extreme . How about a white player with pace and power . For me this is the sort of thing where it dilutes the bigger issue. Where did they get the evidence from? It’s almost saying any comment someone doesn’t like could be classed as racist. This just makes the issue look petty. There are bigger fish to fry in relation to racism than this.
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Post by sergeishtaniuk on Dec 6, 2020 16:46:27 GMT
So you have no problem with players kneeling to express their feelings on racial equality? Seem quite upset about it Don't really care about taking the knee even though I believe it has run it's course, I do object to players giving Black Power salutes on a football pitch for the reasons already given. But I thought you had "No problem with people expressing their feelings on anything at all"? Surely only a snowflake would be upset about a gesture used to combat people booing anti racism initatives? You're not a snowflake, are you mate?
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2020 16:46:42 GMT
Would you like a list of black commentators who are strongly opposed to BLM and taking the knee, and hold views similar to those expressed in my last post? Or do you not mean listening to that kind of black person? I could find you some people who are strongly opposed to killing Hitler and hold views that are similair to those expressed by Hitler. However, the majority think he was evil. You can find someone to justify any opinion you hold. Should we listen to the tiny minority who agree with you or the vast majority who agree with me? Bless, I know you're trying. Hitler is dead did you miss that as well
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Post by sergeishtaniuk on Dec 6, 2020 16:48:07 GMT
I could find you some people who are strongly opposed to killing Hitler and hold views that are similair to those expressed by Hitler. However, the majority think he was evil. You can find someone to justify any opinion you hold. Should we listen to the tiny minority who agree with you or the vast majority who agree with me? Bless, I know you're trying. So not that kind of black person then, I appreciate the confirmation. When you say “listen to black people” you actually mean “listen to black people who behave the way I expect them to, and dismiss any who don’t conform as some kind of Hitler apologists”. Disgraceful. And you’re going on about stereotyping people. Aww, bless So, can you explain why you listen to one black person whose views conform with your own and not the thousands of others marching for BLM? Are they the wrong kinds of black people, the ones who want equality?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 6, 2020 16:52:40 GMT
This loathsome, pathetic self-flagellation driven by the woke brigade was always going to end in tears when freedoms of ordinary, normal British people were restored. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The pro censorship, cancel culture mob propped up by the big virtue signalling corporates are now finally going to see the people rise against this utterly dumb bullshit. Woke politics has no place on a football pitch. It's got enough airtime with the BBC and Sky.
Identity politics was always going to end up dividing more. History tells us that time and time again. The people have had enough of being told day after day what to do and think by a bunch of millionaire elites and are now rising up against this crazed wokedom - its great to see.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 6, 2020 16:53:56 GMT
Geoff stelling was talking about this on the radio last week , apparently he's been instructed by sky not to use this when describing a black player ! It's just political correctness in the extreme . How about a white player with pace and power . For me this is the sort of thing where it dilutes the bigger issue. Where did they get the evidence from? It’s almost saying any comment someone doesn’t like could be classed as racist. This just makes the issue look petty. There are bigger fish to fry in relation to racism than this. Do we get to make the call there on which fish to fry as far as racism goes though? Why not try to fry them all? As you said earlier there’s a need for more conversation all round but that requires a willingness to listen to what the other side is saying and having a bash at empathy. Before we dismiss something as ‘extreme political correctness’ why not at least hear the reasons behind why people might object to it or how being referred to in such a way makes those affected feel?
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 6, 2020 16:56:52 GMT
So not that kind of black person then, I appreciate the confirmation. When you say “listen to black people” you actually mean “listen to black people who behave the way I expect them to, and dismiss any who don’t conform as some kind of Hitler apologists”. Disgraceful. And you’re going on about stereotyping people. Aww, bless So, can you explain why you listen to one black person whose views conform with your own and not the thousands of others marching for BLM? Are they the wrong kinds of black people, the ones who want equality? I do listen to them, then I make my own mind up. You should give it a try, rather than blindly going with what you perceive “the majority” to believe (highly debatable, btw) and then lazily throwing around accusations of racism to avoid a grown-up conversation about it.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 6, 2020 17:04:26 GMT
Don't really care about taking the knee even though I believe it has run it's course, I do object to players giving Black Power salutes on a football pitch for the reasons already given. But I thought you had "No problem with people expressing their feelings on anything at all"? Surely only a snowflake would be upset about a gesture used to combat people booing anti racism initatives? You're not a snowflake, are you mate? That is not expressing their feelings that is a reaction, should players be aligning themselves with nationalism and socialism on a football pitch ?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 6, 2020 17:06:43 GMT
But I thought you had "No problem with people expressing their feelings on anything at all"? Surely only a snowflake would be upset about a gesture used to combat people booing anti racism initatives? You're not a snowflake, are you mate? That is not expressing their feelings that is a reaction, should players be aligning themselves with nationalism and socialism on a football pitch ? Wikipedia alert.
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Post by lee1982 on Dec 6, 2020 17:06:58 GMT
That would be true if i was offended by it. Thinking something is ridiculous and calling for common sense to applied doesnt mean ive been offended. Takes a hell of a lot for me to feel offended. So how can you assume others are offended by something they don't agree with? They also don't agree with something, yet you resort to name calling by labelling them Snowflakes just because its something you don't agree with. I'm not offended by Millwall fans booing, I just think it is wrong. I'm not offended by being called a Snowflake either, it just makes me think that the person using it is struggling to make a coherent argument. the struggle to make a coherent argument is all to clear with the racist card. Once dealt its impossible to come back from, it ends all arguments/conversations dead and allows the user to claim a moral high ground and superiority over others.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 6, 2020 17:12:10 GMT
Geoff stelling was talking about this on the radio last week , apparently he's been instructed by sky not to use this when describing a black player ! It's just political correctness in the extreme . How about a white player with pace and power . I think the problem is that it’s become a lazy stereotype to use that in connection with black footballers in general, even in cases where it isn’t true. Pogba is an example. He often doesn’t do himself any favours with his lethargic performances but even when he’s playing well, I’ve seen him take pelters from the likes of Souness for basically not being Patrick Vieira, Sulley Muntari, Moussa Sissoko etc- an all-action box to box tough tackler. That’s not the kind of midfielder he is - he’s more of a playmaker - but the perception of what he ‘should be’ as a black central midfielder seems somehow to be used against him. There are lots of lazy stereotypical comments used in football , I remember decades ago black players were generally thought to be lazy . We've come a long way since those days the top black players are revered for their ability pace and power . It's not a negative comment in any way . I get your general point though
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Post by lee1982 on Dec 6, 2020 17:21:47 GMT
How come this has been moved?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Dec 6, 2020 17:23:53 GMT
I think the problem is that it’s become a lazy stereotype to use that in connection with black footballers in general, even in cases where it isn’t true. Pogba is an example. He often doesn’t do himself any favours with his lethargic performances but even when he’s playing well, I’ve seen him take pelters from the likes of Souness for basically not being Patrick Vieira, Sulley Muntari, Moussa Sissoko etc- an all-action box to box tough tackler. That’s not the kind of midfielder he is - he’s more of a playmaker - but the perception of what he ‘should be’ as a black central midfielder seems somehow to be used against him. There are lots of lazy stereotypical comments used in football , I remember decades ago black players were generally thought to be lazy . We've come a long way since those days the top black players are revered for their ability pace and power . It's not a negative comment in any way . I get your general point though Imagine being accused of having pace and power! Disgraceful🙄 It’s a fact that black players are generally better conditioned athletes, the attributes of pace and power are at the forefront of that description. I’ve heard many black players be described as intelligent footballers such as Kante, Makelele, Gullit, Van Dijk etc. The accusations that commentators/pundits use racial stereotypes for all black footballers is utter drivel. In my opinion if I’m allowed one.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 6, 2020 17:24:19 GMT
For me this is the sort of thing where it dilutes the bigger issue. Where did they get the evidence from? It’s almost saying any comment someone doesn’t like could be classed as racist. This just makes the issue look petty. There are bigger fish to fry in relation to racism than this. Do we get to make the call there on which fish to fry as far as racism goes though? Why not try to fry them all? As you said earlier there’s a need for more conversation all round but that requires a willingness to listen to what the other side is saying and having a bash at empathy. Before we dismiss something as ‘extreme political correctness’ why not at least hear the reasons behind why people might object to it or how being referred to in such a way makes those affected feel? A fair point but do you genuinely think we could deal with every comment that’s made and if we do where does it end in relation to anyone being offended. Surely on more minor matters like this it’s for the individual to discuss it doesn’t need to be made into a big issue. I think there has to be some rationality otherwise we’ll be be setting an overly high bar where expectation is concerned and what we can be offended by. I just don’t get how any reasonable person can be truely offended by being described as “pace and power” I’d take that as a compliment. Maybe it’s my age but do you not think we’re becoming very fragile as a society and very easily offended and I’m not just talking about the subject of this thread I’m talking about across the board. At this rate no one will say anything as they’ll be so fearful of everything they say being analysed.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 6, 2020 17:30:49 GMT
Do we get to make the call there on which fish to fry as far as racism goes though? Why not try to fry them all? As you said earlier there’s a need for more conversation all round but that requires a willingness to listen to what the other side is saying and having a bash at empathy. Before we dismiss something as ‘extreme political correctness’ why not at least hear the reasons behind why people might object to it or how being referred to in such a way makes those affected feel? A fair point but do you genuinely think we could deal with every comment that’s made and if we do where does it end in relation to anyone being offended. Surely on more minor matters like this it’s for the individual to discuss it doesn’t need to be made into a big issue. I think there has to be some rationality otherwise we’ll be be setting an overly high bar where expectation is concerned and what we can be offended by. I just don’t get how any reasonable person can be truely offended by being described as “pace and power” I’d take that as a compliment. Maybe it’s my age but do you not think we’re becoming very fragile as a society and very easily offended and I’m not just talking about the subject of this thread I’m talking about across the board. At this rate no one will say anything as they’ll be so fearful of everything they say being analysed. Not every comment no but if we can genuinely improve understanding of the issues that can only be a good thing, no. Here’s something on the ‘pace and power’ thing medium.com/@leslie9614/pace-and-power-it-is-time-to-change-the-language-of-punditry-10562bc23374Again, I’m not sure it’s for us to determine what’s a ‘minor issue’ - maybe we ought to hear people out before deciding that?
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Post by lee1982 on Dec 6, 2020 17:31:27 GMT
There are lots of lazy stereotypical comments used in football , I remember decades ago black players were generally thought to be lazy . We've come a long way since those days the top black players are revered for their ability pace and power . It's not a negative comment in any way . I get your general point though Imagine being accused of having pace and power! Disgraceful🙄 It’s a fact that black players are generally better conditioned athletes, the attributes of pace and power are at the forefront of that description. I’ve heard many black players be described as intelligent footballers such as Kante, Makelele, Gullit, Van Dijk etc. The accusations that commentators/pundits use racial stereotypes for all black footballers is utter drivel. In my opinion if I’m allowed one. exactly and this highlights a point i made earlier about black men and women dominating 100m sprint and to a degree many more track and field events. Theres nothing wrong with this, its not a negative attribute to throw at someone. The sooner we accept that we do have our differences the easier it becomes to talk about them. Walking on egg shells wont help the situation.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 6, 2020 17:31:51 GMT
The problem with this type of gesture in sport is your either damned if you do damned if you don’t I do t agree with it full stop. However I can get on board with every club doing it at their first home game earlier in the summer when the cause was more in the news. I can see the argument that footballers are showing their support for the cause (not necessarily the political movement behind it) However once it carried on how do you stop. It took the nurse that started the clapping to organise the cessation. Once this taking the knee went past the stage of every club doing once at their home ground how do you stop?? You get to the stage where football fans just want to see a game of football not seeing the knee before every game wether that be on tv or in the ground. Millwall may have a bad reputation but those fans just want to watch a game of football. If they want politics they will turn on the news or get on the millwall mb eeb Causes such as this need to know when to stop and move to other ways to get their message across otherwise they may up alienating people to their cause which is worse than booing. It’s now ok to bash millwall and paint them as just racist but the truth is more they just want to watch a game of football not look at 22 players taking a political stance. On a similar but separate matter football authorities do not deal with the racism in the game so they can’t get on their moral horse now
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 6, 2020 17:34:52 GMT
A fair point but do you genuinely think we could deal with every comment that’s made and if we do where does it end in relation to anyone being offended. Surely on more minor matters like this it’s for the individual to discuss it doesn’t need to be made into a big issue. I think there has to be some rationality otherwise we’ll be be setting an overly high bar where expectation is concerned and what we can be offended by. I just don’t get how any reasonable person can be truely offended by being described as “pace and power” I’d take that as a compliment. Maybe it’s my age but do you not think we’re becoming very fragile as a society and very easily offended and I’m not just talking about the subject of this thread I’m talking about across the board. At this rate no one will say anything as they’ll be so fearful of everything they say being analysed. Not every comment no but if we can genuinely improve understanding of the issues that can only be a good thing, no. Here’s something on the ‘pace and power’ thing medium.com/@leslie9614/pace-and-power-it-is-time-to-change-the-language-of-punditry-10562bc23374Again, I’m not sure it’s for us to determine what’s a ‘minor issue’ - maybe we ought to hear people out before deciding that? I’m no expert but the best way would be to have a board made up from all members of the community and that are deemed independent and rational and let them decide
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