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Post by pavel on Sept 23, 2019 16:18:12 GMT
So you don't want us to act like every other modern successful clubs of the last decade by making hard decisions when the manager just isn't performing and looking at the market for a better product. That's why we are where we are now by not modernising our structure, fishing in a small pool for our managers and sticking our head in the sand hoping for deliverance when everything is going pear-shaped around us. There isn't a program just a god awful mess, lack of any discernible progress and 2 points out of 24 and 3 wins since he arrived. No other forward looking club with ambition would tolerate such a situation. How many modern successful clubs have had 4 managers in 2 years? There are exceptions (eg Watford - but that currently isn't looking like a good example) but if a club is changing their manager every few months there is a bigger problem than the manager - and just sacking the manager isn't the answer - in fact if the underlying issues aren't addressed the chances are it will just make things worse. Those people calling for patience aren't denying there is a problem. All they are doing is pointing out the problem runs deeper and that changing the manger isn't necessarily the answer. Which given our trajectory since we really got a taste for scape goating the manager is sort of obvious. Jones was hailed as our saviour by many on here and now Hughton is getting the same bonkers adulation Jones got on his appointment. It's just wishful thinking wrapped up in a call for decisive action. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm not questioning the motivation - I'm questioning the blind faith in our next saviour. No matter what the underlying issues that are deep within the club, which I agree there are and have posted on many times, Jones's position is untenable, we are deep in a relegation battle and he has failed throughout his time her to come up with a coherent team on the pitch, where it matters. Since he's come here things have just deteriorated to the extent that we are looking at the trap door to division 2. Nobody wants to see a manger sacked for the sake of it, least of all me, but there is not one iota of evidence that he will improve things, we are in a downward spiral with a manager that has always had success (in lower divisions) and he is floundering. Nobody is scapegoating the manager, most of us are aware of the deeper problems at the club and most, I'm sure, don't see Hughton as a nailed on saviour but someone who has been successful in this division and above, a fairly safe pair of hands if we want to use that term. I would prefer that we cast our net wider for a new manager, make those root and branch changes to the club structure we were promised and bring in qualified, inventive and truly competent football people at all levels of the club including the senior management and board and this needs to happen as soon as possible. However I'm afraid we cant think medium term at the moment, we need to act and be decisive now. We're definitely in firefighting territory because of, let's be frank, the mess Jones has made of his first foray into the higher echelons of the football league, his tactics, his game plans, his signings, his decision to let better players leave the club without adequate replacements and his apparent inability to manage/work with quality players. Do I feel sorry for him, yes. Does he need to go, definitely.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Sept 23, 2019 16:21:55 GMT
And if a new manager loses his first ten games and draws the next three, do we get rid of him as well? We have to sack Jones now - otherwise we won't be able to appoint our Lord and Saviour Chris The Infallible Hughton before the international break which in turn will mean not being able to sack the fraud Chris The Charlatan Hughton before Xmas in order to give the next saviour/fraud the chance to disappoint with their new year signings. Get with the program. PS I believe the club now include a P45 with every contract to save postage. Nonsense from you as usual. Although please give me an example of a manager with a ten percent win record having managed more than 20 games who 1. Was NOT sacked AND 2. Went on to be successful in his job
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2019 17:04:50 GMT
We have to sack Jones now - otherwise we won't be able to appoint our Lord and Saviour Chris The Infallible Hughton before the international break which in turn will mean not being able to sack the fraud Chris The Charlatan Hughton before Xmas in order to give the next saviour/fraud the chance to disappoint with their new year signings. Get with the program. PS I believe the club now include a P45 with every contract to save postage. Nonsense from you as usual. Although please give me an example of a manager with a ten percent win record having managed more than 20 games who 1. Was NOT sacked AND 2. Went on to be successful in his job Admittedly not as bad as Jones's start but here and for some other losers try thisJones is inexperienced at this level and a gamble - which is the nonsense I have been consistently posting since he was appointed. The thing is the problems Jones is facing are exactly the same as the problems his replacement would have to deal with. And they are really difficult problems. The thing I'm struggling with is the blind faith that changing manager (yet again) will make those problems go away. Sticking with Jones is clearly a risk. But so is changing manager. I've no idea if sticking with Jones will work out. But equally I have no confidence that simply changing the manager will solve the problem. My preference at the moment is to stick. But that's no more nonsense than expecting that slaughtering yet another goat will make the crops grow even when the growing pile of goat corpses might suggest otherwise.
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 23, 2019 17:09:42 GMT
What exactly are these problems he is facing then. Lambert said the same, sorted them, Rowett arrives, says the same, seemingly sorted them then gets sacked. Jones arrives banging on about putting procedures in place, has a full pre season, buys his own players and low and behold these problems are wheeled out again for why we must be patient etc. Really as a layman I really can't get my head round it!!
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2019 17:09:56 GMT
Nonsense from you as usual. Although please give me an example of a manager with a ten percent win record having managed more than 20 games who 1. Was NOT sacked AND 2. Went on to be successful in his job Admittedly not as bad as Jones's start but here and for some other losers try thisJones is inexperienced at this level and a gamble - which is the nonsense I have been consistently posting since he was appointed. The thing is the problems Jones is facing are exactly the same as the problems his replacement would have to deal with. And they are really difficult problems. The thing I'm struggling with is the blind faith that changing manager (yet again) will make those problems go away. Sticking with Jones is clearly a risk. But so is changing manager. I've no idea if sticking with Jones will work out. But equally I have no confidence that simply changing the manager will solve the problem. My preference at the moment is to stick. But that's no more nonsense than expecting that slaughtering yet another goat will make the crops grow even when the growing pile of goat corpses might suggest otherwise. Are you seriously suggesting the managers in those links are in comparable situations?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2019 18:24:15 GMT
Admittedly not as bad as Jones's start but here and for some other losers try thisJones is inexperienced at this level and a gamble - which is the nonsense I have been consistently posting since he was appointed. The thing is the problems Jones is facing are exactly the same as the problems his replacement would have to deal with. And they are really difficult problems. The thing I'm struggling with is the blind faith that changing manager (yet again) will make those problems go away. Sticking with Jones is clearly a risk. But so is changing manager. I've no idea if sticking with Jones will work out. But equally I have no confidence that simply changing the manager will solve the problem. My preference at the moment is to stick. But that's no more nonsense than expecting that slaughtering yet another goat will make the crops grow even when the growing pile of goat corpses might suggest otherwise. Are you seriously suggesting the managers in those links are in comparable situations? Of course not - it just illustrates that a bad trot doesn't necessarily justify writing off a manager as useless. If owners just looked at those records in isolation some of the best managers around would never have been given a chance to show what they could do. It may even indicate that the best managers need a bad trot to learn and improve. We are currently in a relegation battle with half a new squad, some lingering smells from our failed Premiership era, massively inflated (and probably unrealistic) expectations, players low on form and confidence and a lack of clarity as to out best starting 11. Which would still be true if we get rid of Jones. Jones might not be able to turn it round. But equally he might. It's the blind faith that changing the manager is the answer that I find bizarre - especially given our track record. All I and a few other are doing is pointing out there are no guarantees - our crime appears to be not being wide eyed believers in the infallible power of changing the manager.
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Post by citynickscfc on Sept 23, 2019 18:41:04 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting the managers in those links are in comparable situations? Of course not - it just illustrates that a bad trot doesn't necessarily justify writing off a manager as useless. If owners just looked at those records in isolation some of the best managers around would never have been given a chance to show what they could do. It may even indicate that the best managers need a bad trot to learn and improve. We are currently in a relegation battle with half a new squad, some lingering smells from our failed Premiership era, massively inflated (and probably unrealistic) expectations, players low on form and confidence and a lack of clarity as to out best starting 11. Which would still be true if we get rid of Jones. Jones might not be able to turn it round. But equally he might. It's the blind faith that changing the manager is the answer that I find bizarre - especially given our track record. All I and a few other are doing is pointing out there are no guarantees - our crime appears to be not being wide eyed believers in the infallible power of changing the manager. It's the likelihood of something occurring that you attribute towards chance, and Jones, statistically, has absolutely no chance of turning this around towards a successful season. He had very very little chance to turn this around to assist us surviving this league. So what are the chances of someone with actual ability and credentials doing so? Probably a lot higher than Jones, and that is why any team changes their manager. It would be a such if hughton didn't turn it around, for example. TP also. Failed transfer Windows and a summer under Jones suggests that January will not help us at all. So instead of doubting that a change is wrong, because statistically it is the better option, how can you justify Hobbes staying on? If you can't then your simply justifying a change. This is not a bad trot, this is a fatal fall into the death pit with a stake through your legs and broken arms. We seem lifeless, in fear, defending for our lives, playing for draws... We haven't got a clue going forward. I can't even say how Jones would fix this in 3 more Windows the mess that he has created with his 9(is it) new signings? None of them even play. Why should we change? Because if we want the survive we pretty much have to, and if we have any ambition fit the next 5 years there basically no sign of reasoning to keep Jones at all
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Post by smallthorner on Sept 23, 2019 18:41:40 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting the managers in those links are in comparable situations? Of course not - it just illustrates that a bad trot doesn't necessarily justify writing off a manager as useless. If owners just looked at those records in isolation some of the best managers around would never have been given a chance to show what they could do. It may even indicate that the best managers need a bad trot to learn and improve. We are currently in a relegation battle with half a new squad, some lingering smells from our failed Premiership era, massively inflated (and probably unrealistic) expectations, players low on form and confidence and a lack of clarity as to out best starting 11. Which would still be true if we get rid of Jones. Jones might not be able to turn it round. But equally he might. It's the blind faith that changing the manager is the answer that I find bizarre - especially given our track record. All I and a few other are doing is pointing out there are no guarantees - our crime appears to be not being wide eyed believers in the infallible power of changing the manager. What I find bizarre is the fact that this guy is still Manager of SCFC. Absolutely abysmal results and points haul throughout his his tenure. No sign of progress. Horrendous signings. He needs putting out of his misery pronto.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2019 19:04:54 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting the managers in those links are in comparable situations? Of course not - it just illustrates that a bad trot doesn't necessarily justify writing off a manager as useless. If owners just looked at those records in isolation some of the best managers around would never have been given a chance to show what they could do. It may even indicate that the best managers need a bad trot to learn and improve. We are currently in a relegation battle with half a new squad, some lingering smells from our failed Premiership era, massively inflated (and probably unrealistic) expectations, players low on form and confidence and a lack of clarity as to out best starting 11. Which would still be true if we get rid of Jones. Jones might not be able to turn it round. But equally he might. It's the blind faith that changing the manager is the answer that I find bizarre - especially given our track record. All I and a few other are doing is pointing out there are no guarantees - our crime appears to be not being wide eyed believers in the infallible power of changing the manager. But the links you sent were to top managers who (Fergie in a different era aside) had been on runs of three defeats in nine. Surely you can recognise we’re on a run of 4 wins in 30 and that’s a completely different league to those? Find us some managers who went on that kind of run and turned on round with that same club? You’re also mischaracterising things with the ‘magic wand’ stuff. I don’t think anyone thinks Hughton is the messiah or will come in and instantly make everything hunky dory. But he’s the best available one out there in keeping with the kind of manager the owners go for and there are no signs things are going to radically improve under the incumbent. I like Jones and really wish this would work out but at this point doing so is every inch ‘blind faith’ as wanting a change, if not more so. Yes there are some problems that go beyond the manager but each manager since the start of 2016 has made some unfathomable choices that have plunged us deeper and deeper into the quicksand.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2019 20:33:09 GMT
Of course not - it just illustrates that a bad trot doesn't necessarily justify writing off a manager as useless. If owners just looked at those records in isolation some of the best managers around would never have been given a chance to show what they could do. It may even indicate that the best managers need a bad trot to learn and improve. We are currently in a relegation battle with half a new squad, some lingering smells from our failed Premiership era, massively inflated (and probably unrealistic) expectations, players low on form and confidence and a lack of clarity as to out best starting 11. Which would still be true if we get rid of Jones. Jones might not be able to turn it round. But equally he might. It's the blind faith that changing the manager is the answer that I find bizarre - especially given our track record. All I and a few other are doing is pointing out there are no guarantees - our crime appears to be not being wide eyed believers in the infallible power of changing the manager. But the links you sent were to top managers who (Fergie in a different era aside) had been on runs of three defeats in nine. Surely you can recognise we’re on a run of 4 wins in 30 and that’s a completely different league to those? Find us some managers who went on that kind of run and turned on round with that same club? You’re also mischaracterising things with the ‘magic wand’ stuff. I don’t think anyone thinks Hughton is the messiah or will come in and instantly make everything hunky dory. But he’s the best available one out there in keeping with the kind of manager the owners go for and there are no signs things are going to radically improve under the incumbent. I like Jones and really wish this would work out but at this point doing so is every inch ‘blind faith’ as wanting a change, if not more so. Yes there are some problems that go beyond the manager but each manager since the start of 2016 has made some unfathomable choices that have plunged us deeper and deeper into the quicksand. And what makes you think the next one won't plunge us even deeper? After all by your own admission appointing Jones has made us far worse than we were under Rowett.
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Post by stokeykez on Sept 23, 2019 20:38:56 GMT
But the links you sent were to top managers who (Fergie in a different era aside) had been on runs of three defeats in nine. Surely you can recognise we’re on a run of 4 wins in 30 and that’s a completely different league to those? Find us some managers who went on that kind of run and turned on round with that same club? You’re also mischaracterising things with the ‘magic wand’ stuff. I don’t think anyone thinks Hughton is the messiah or will come in and instantly make everything hunky dory. But he’s the best available one out there in keeping with the kind of manager the owners go for and there are no signs things are going to radically improve under the incumbent. I like Jones and really wish this would work out but at this point doing so is every inch ‘blind faith’ as wanting a change, if not more so. Yes there are some problems that go beyond the manager but each manager since the start of 2016 has made some unfathomable choices that have plunged us deeper and deeper into the quicksand. And what makes you think the next one won't plunge us even deeper? After all by your own admission appointing Jones has made us far worse than we were under Rowett. That's because the club went for the penny pinching cheap option, nathan jones was a massive gamble for stoke, one that has backfired in spectacular style. This job needed someone with quality championship experience
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2019 20:39:52 GMT
But the links you sent were to top managers who (Fergie in a different era aside) had been on runs of three defeats in nine. Surely you can recognise we’re on a run of 4 wins in 30 and that’s a completely different league to those? Find us some managers who went on that kind of run and turned on round with that same club? You’re also mischaracterising things with the ‘magic wand’ stuff. I don’t think anyone thinks Hughton is the messiah or will come in and instantly make everything hunky dory. But he’s the best available one out there in keeping with the kind of manager the owners go for and there are no signs things are going to radically improve under the incumbent. I like Jones and really wish this would work out but at this point doing so is every inch ‘blind faith’ as wanting a change, if not more so. Yes there are some problems that go beyond the manager but each manager since the start of 2016 has made some unfathomable choices that have plunged us deeper and deeper into the quicksand. And what makes you think the next one won't plunge us even deeper? After all by your own admission appointing Jones has made us far worse than we were under Rowett. He may well do. At this point there isn’t much to lose though is there? We can’t finish 25th. My opinion now is that we’ve reached a point where it’s more likely that a change will improve us than sticking, as much of a shame though I think that is. What is it that you see getting better if he stays put?
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Post by Goonie on Sept 23, 2019 21:00:19 GMT
What exactly are these problems he is facing then. Lambert said the same, sorted them, Rowett arrives, says the same, seemingly sorted them then gets sacked. Jones arrives banging on about putting procedures in place, has a full pre season, buys his own players and low and behold these problems are wheeled out again for why we must be patient etc. Really as a layman I really can't get my head round it!! Exactly that! Shawcross, Allen, Butland, Edwards, Diouf (!) Still remain from the relegated squad (any others?) So who's left to cause problems apart from those brought in by Rowett and Jones himself? Jones just not up to it and needs to go
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