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Post by thevoid on Jun 16, 2019 13:06:12 GMT
There's only way we're exiting this division and it isn't up. We're the next Sunderland or Bolton.
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Post by sneydgreenstokie1 on Jun 16, 2019 13:07:54 GMT
There's only way we're exiting this division and it isn't up. We're the next Sunderland or Bolton. Love your positivity
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Post by stokefan1972 on Jun 16, 2019 13:15:12 GMT
Is the penny finally dropping with one or two? Jones has been brought in because of his knowledge of the lower leagues and his ability to create a lot with a little at Luton. John Coates went public at the meeting and particularly mentioned what Jones had done with Sonny Bradley at Luton, a player tossed aside by a few clubs. Signed on a free for buttons. It isn't rocket science. We spent a fortune on fees and wages last season and the season before. Just because it was spent badly doesn't mean it wasn't spent. It's obvious that any sales this summer will be used to pay expensive players out of their contracts, replaced with freebies and ultimately loans. I've been saying it for months....wakey wakey. Jones said we will cut our cloth
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Post by kustokie on Jun 16, 2019 13:15:22 GMT
There's only way we're exiting this division and it isn't up. We're the next Sunderland or Bolton. That’s the Spirit!
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Post by DC1863 on Jun 16, 2019 13:20:37 GMT
If Jones thinks they can add to the squad and the dressing room in a positive fashion I'll trust his judgement, at least they are clearly his signings if we get them in.
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Post by sportsman on Jun 16, 2019 13:34:13 GMT
I cant see a problem with clearing the shit, bringing in the best free's, and adding a couple of bigger purchases too no doubt.
The other way certainly hasn't worked.
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Post by thevoid on Jun 16, 2019 15:20:47 GMT
There's only way we're exiting this division and it isn't up. We're the next Sunderland or Bolton. Love your positivity I'm a realist. We've been on a downward spiral for a while now and I've yet to see any evidence of it turning around. Give me something to be positive about and I'll be positive.
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Post by sneydgreenstokie1 on Jun 16, 2019 15:57:10 GMT
By the same token why the continued negativity? There is nothing new to be negative about
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 16, 2019 15:59:42 GMT
I'm a realist. We've been on a downward spiral for a while now and I've yet to see any evidence of it turning around. Give me something to be positive about and I'll be positive. We've finally recognised we're in a downward spiral and rather then buy in players only bothered by the pay check and the exposure we'll give them we appear to be going for players with good character and/or a point to prove. I've no idea if it will work but it's far better than doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Isn't that a positive? There's no point being negative about the fact we are no longer capable of attracting Premiership quality players - that's just the reality of our situation. I'm really looking forward to next season - and in particular whether Jones can shape us into an effective team - something we haven't been for several seasons now - and I like the emphasis on teamwork over over "names".
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 16, 2019 16:41:00 GMT
I'm a realist. We've been on a downward spiral for a while now and I've yet to see any evidence of it turning around. Give me something to be positive about and I'll be positive. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating !, so far there is not enough evidence to say Jones knows what he is doing 3 wins in four months with the most expensive squad in the League tells a story, you can only go on the evidence at hand in reality.
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Post by heworksardtho on Jun 16, 2019 17:11:22 GMT
If Messi isn’t signed by the end of June then Jones Out 😎
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 16, 2019 17:32:22 GMT
I thought the problem was we couldn't score enough. Lots of links to defensive players, defenders who can play midfield and midfielders who can play defence.
Based on last season, Powell adds 8 goals and 6 assists, which is pretty similar to Ince (6 goals, 7 assists), who is now effectively lost from the side due to the fomation. So a tiny net positive perhaps. Gregory scored 9 - same as Afobe. so Vokes + Gregory = Vokes + Afobe pretty much.
NJ's full backs at Luton created 8 each. While a great attacking full back, Edwards can't do that - 1 assist as a reasonably attacking full back. The mystery of the LB who can do that deepens. We haven't got anyone who can score (or even assist) regularly from the two CM roles: From a mix of Clucas, Etebo, (Cousins?), Woods - we could probably bank on 4 goals and perhaps 4-8 assists all season.
Looks like another squad with 50 goals in it (tops) the way things are shaping up. (Equating to somewhere between 14th and 18th)
Early days. But even if we got a "Gayle" with this squad, i don't see the creativity.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 16, 2019 17:45:12 GMT
I thought the problem was we couldn't score enough. Lots of links to defensive players, defenders who can play midfield and midfielders who can play defence. Based on last season, Powell adds 8 goals and 6 assists, which is pretty similar to Ince (6 goals, 7 assists), who is now effectively lost from the side due to the fomation. So a tiny net positive perhaps. Gregory scored 9 - same as Afobe. so Vokes + Gregory = Vokes + Afobe pretty much. NJ's full backs at Luton created 8 each. While a great attacking full back, Edwards can't do that - 1 assist as a reasonably attacking full back. The mystery of the LB who can do that deepens. We haven't got anyone who can score (or even assist) regularly from the two CM roles: From a mix of Clucas, Etebo, (Cousins?), Woods - we could probably bank on 4 goals and perhaps 4-8 assists all season. Looks like another squad with 50 goals in it (tops) the way things are shaping up. (Equating to somewhere between 14th and 18th) Early days. But even if we got a "Gayle" with this squad, i don't see the creativity. As Greavesy said "It's a funny old game". 12 months ago we were busy chasing McClean, Afobe, and Ince, and doing nothing to strengthen the worst defence in the Prem., minus Zouma, until we finally hired 2 Everton rejects.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 20:25:26 GMT
Let us not forget craps, none of the past few managers can get a tune out of those expensive flops. I 've been saying the squad was crap for quite a while, but I'm hoping this Jones chap can turn the squad around. McLean, Ince and several others need to go IMHO. I've never rated Ince nor McLean, and even though I'm not a manager, I would not have signed either of them. Not having a go at you by the way, but that is what I feel at the mo!
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Post by harlequin on Jun 16, 2019 23:14:13 GMT
Maybe he's stacking the squad with players he knows he can get a tune out of. If he can get a core of a players who can run through a brick wall for him because of their work rate or personal history with him, the under performers are more likely to follow suit.
As it is, players are integrated into whatever toxic culture saw us relegated.
If the players start performing the level they should then that is the ideal scenario regardless of money spent.
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Post by reddipotter on Jun 17, 2019 8:41:29 GMT
I thought the problem was we couldn't score enough. Lots of links to defensive players, defenders who can play midfield and midfielders who can play defence. Based on last season, Powell adds 8 goals and 6 assists, which is pretty similar to Ince (6 goals, 7 assists), who is now effectively lost from the side due to the fomation. So a tiny net positive perhaps. Gregory scored 9 - same as Afobe. so Vokes + Gregory = Vokes + Afobe pretty much. NJ's full backs at Luton created 8 each. While a great attacking full back, Edwards can't do that - 1 assist as a reasonably attacking full back. The mystery of the LB who can do that deepens. We haven't got anyone who can score (or even assist) regularly from the two CM roles: From a mix of Clucas, Etebo, (Cousins?), Woods - we could probably bank on 4 goals and perhaps 4-8 assists all season. Looks like another squad with 50 goals in it (tops) the way things are shaping up. (Equating to somewhere between 14th and 18th) Early days. But even if we got a "Gayle" with this squad, i don't see the creativity. As Greavesy said "It's a funny old game". 12 months ago we were busy chasing McClean, Afobe, and Ince, and doing nothing to strengthen the worst defence in the Prem., minus Zouma, until we finally hired 2 Everton rejects. Interesting article by Rod Liddle in The Sunday Times yesterday, quoting a book of football research. Keeping a clean sheet gives you a 60% chance of three points and, of course, a certainty of one point. Scoring only gives you a 35% chance of three points. So having a good defence is the starting point.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 17, 2019 8:54:05 GMT
As Greavesy said "It's a funny old game". 12 months ago we were busy chasing McClean, Afobe, and Ince, and doing nothing to strengthen the worst defence in the Prem., minus Zouma, until we finally hired 2 Everton rejects. Interesting article by Rod Liddle in The Sunday Times yesterday, quoting a book of football research. Keeping a clean sheet gives you a 60% chance of three points and, of course, a certainty of one point. Scoring only gives you a 35% chance of three points. So having a good defence is the starting point. A Book of football research I thought he was ghost writing pullis ‘s latest biography My way or the shower towel
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 9:06:09 GMT
I'm a realist. We've been on a downward spiral for a while now and I've yet to see any evidence of it turning around. Give me something to be positive about and I'll be positive. Why though? Pointless being like that now, we have a new season under a new, exciting manager and we're getting rid of a lot of the shit, old, fat men who led to our relegation and bringing in new players who, let's face it, none of us know enough about to judge. That's bloody exciting to me. I couldn't be bothered going into next season without a bit of hope. That's what it's all about. As Nello once said 'I've always wanted to be happy, so I decided to be'.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 17, 2019 11:33:50 GMT
As Greavesy said "It's a funny old game". 12 months ago we were busy chasing McClean, Afobe, and Ince, and doing nothing to strengthen the worst defence in the Prem., minus Zouma, until we finally hired 2 Everton rejects. Interesting article by Rod Liddle in The Sunday Times yesterday, quoting a book of football research. Keeping a clean sheet gives you a 60% chance of three points and, of course, a certainty of one point. Scoring only gives you a 35% chance of three points. So having a good defence is the starting point. That's a fact you can't disagree with. All great teams and teams that win things invariably have sound defences. But there is a difference between having a sound defence and playing negatively, parking the bus with 10 men behind the ball. I don't believe many teams win championships doing the latter. Keeping clean sheet will keep you in the division, e.g. Stoke this last season, but if you want to win leagues or cups you have to win matches and that means scoring goals. To score goals, you don't just need a striker who takes his chances, but you have to create goal scoring chances.
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Post by franklin66 on Jun 17, 2019 11:37:11 GMT
I'm a realist. We've been on a downward spiral for a while now and I've yet to see any evidence of it turning around. Give me something to be positive about and I'll be positive. We have but we now have owners who have the money to buy our way out of trouble if they wish.
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Post by lordb on Jun 17, 2019 11:38:37 GMT
I thought the problem was we couldn't score enough. Lots of links to defensive players, defenders who can play midfield and midfielders who can play defence. Based on last season, Powell adds 8 goals and 6 assists, which is pretty similar to Ince (6 goals, 7 assists), who is now effectively lost from the side due to the fomation. So a tiny net positive perhaps. Gregory scored 9 - same as Afobe. so Vokes + Gregory = Vokes + Afobe pretty much. NJ's full backs at Luton created 8 each. While a great attacking full back, Edwards can't do that - 1 assist as a reasonably attacking full back. The mystery of the LB who can do that deepens. We haven't got anyone who can score (or even assist) regularly from the two CM roles: From a mix of Clucas, Etebo, (Cousins?), Woods - we could probably bank on 4 goals and perhaps 4-8 assists all season. Looks like another squad with 50 goals in it (tops) the way things are shaping up. (Equating to somewhere between 14th and 18th) Early days. But even if we got a "Gayle" with this squad, i don't see the creativity. Edwards made lots of decent crosses last season issue was Afobe's 'movement' in the penalty area was appalling looking for Vokes & the others to work on that overall your point stands
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Post by reddipotter on Jun 17, 2019 13:01:32 GMT
Interesting article by Rod Liddle in The Sunday Times yesterday, quoting a book of football research. Keeping a clean sheet gives you a 60% chance of three points and, of course, a certainty of one point. Scoring only gives you a 35% chance of three points. So having a good defence is the starting point. That's a fact you can't disagree with. All great teams and teams that win things invariably have sound defences. But there is a difference between having a sound defence and playing negatively, parking the bus with 10 men behind the ball. I don't believe many teams win championships doing the latter. Keeping clean sheet will keep you in the division, e.g. Stoke this last season, but if you want to win leagues or cups you have to win matches and that means scoring goals. To score goals, you don't just need a striker who takes his chances, but you have to create goal scoring chances. Yes, of course, but the point of the stats is that if you keep a clean sheet, you only need to score one goal to win. If you try to outscore the opposition, the chances of three points drops from 60% to 35%. Most successful teams build from a sound defence so we shouldn't complain about signing lots of defenders.
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 17, 2019 18:07:05 GMT
That's a fact you can't disagree with. All great teams and teams that win things invariably have sound defences. But there is a difference between having a sound defence and playing negatively, parking the bus with 10 men behind the ball. I don't believe many teams win championships doing the latter. Keeping clean sheet will keep you in the division, e.g. Stoke this last season, but if you want to win leagues or cups you have to win matches and that means scoring goals. To score goals, you don't just need a striker who takes his chances, but you have to create goal scoring chances. Yes, of course, but the point of the stats is that if you keep a clean sheet, you only need to score one goal to win. If you try to outscore the opposition, the chances of three points drops from 60% to 35%. Most successful teams build from a sound defence so we shouldn't complain about signing lots of defenders. basically a goal equates to an average of a point - look at the top 2 divisions. A goal scored is therefore worth more than one conceded as it more strongly relates to league position. There is also logic behind the higher value of a goal scored.... if if I am drawing, a goal scored wins me 2pts and a goal conceded loses me 1 if I am winning by a goal, a goal scored wins me 0 pts but one conceded loses me 1 if am losing by a goal, a goal scored wins me 1pt and One conceded costs me 0pts if I am winning or losing by more than a goal, the goal scored or conceded is aLso worth 0pts. therefore, on average, a goal scored is worth about 1.pt and a goal conceded is worth 0.67 pts to an average team, assuming the first three (most usual) scenarios are equally likely. In general - underlying both goals for and against is possession - the more you keep the ball, the more you have the opportunity of an incisive pass, and the less chance your opponent has. The misleading idea conveyed by the clean sheet stat is you should intentionally strive for a clean sheet through the best defenders above all else to win games. Many of those clean sheets are because one team was simply better in possession, occupying opponents higher up the pitch, denying the chance of creating chances - and as much to do with midfielders or attackers as defenders. Conclusion: you need good players all over the pitch to keep the ball off your opponentents and deter them attacking. This is the better route to clean sheets, overall. It’s certainly the better route to being higher up the league. We had a defensive record capable of the play offs last year, good possession stats, but below par on chances and goals. which tells you where our particular weakness lies. It isn’t defenders from what I see.
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 17, 2019 18:44:04 GMT
As Greavesy said "It's a funny old game". 12 months ago we were busy chasing McClean, Afobe, and Ince, and doing nothing to strengthen the worst defence in the Prem., minus Zouma, until we finally hired 2 Everton rejects. Interesting article by Rod Liddle in The Sunday Times yesterday, quoting a book of football research. Keeping a clean sheet gives you a 60% chance of three points and, of course, a certainty of one point. Scoring only gives you a 35% chance of three points. So having a good defence is the starting point. The question is how to keep a clean sheet. Having a good defence is not the only reason teams keep clean sheets. Having a midfield who can protect a back four can be as important.
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Post by reddipotter on Jun 17, 2019 19:34:15 GMT
Yes, of course, but the point of the stats is that if you keep a clean sheet, you only need to score one goal to win. If you try to outscore the opposition, the chances of three points drops from 60% to 35%. Most successful teams build from a sound defence so we shouldn't complain about signing lots of defenders. basically a goal equates to an average of a point - look at the top 2 divisions. A goal scored is therefore worth more than one conceded as it more strongly relates to league position. There is also logic behind the higher value of a goal scored.... if if I am drawing, a goal scored wins me 3 Pts and a goal conceded loses me 1 if I am winning by a goal, a goal scored wins me 0 pts but one conceded loses me 1 if am losing by a goal, a goal scored wins me 1pt and One conceded costs me 0pts if I am winning or losing by more than a goal, the goal scored or conceded is aLso worth 0pts. therefore, on average, a goal scored is worth about 1.33 pts and a goal conceded is worth 0.67 pts to an average team, assuming the first three (most usual) scenarios are equally likely. In general - underlying both goals for and against is possession - the more you keep the ball, the more you have the opportunity of an incisive pass, and the less chance your opponent has. The misleading idea conveyed by the clean sheet stat is you should intentionally strive for a clean sheet through the best defenders above all else to win games. Many of those clean sheets are because one team was simply better in possession, occupying opponents higher up the pitch, denying the chance of creating chances - and as much to do with midfielders or attackers as defenders. Conclusion: you need good players all over the pitch to keep the ball off your opponentents and deter them attacking. This is the better route to clean sheets, overall. It’s certainly the better route to being higher up the league. We had a defensive record capable of the play offs last year, good possession stats, but below par on chances and goals. which tells you where our particular weakness lies. It isn’t defenders from what I see. I'm not sure I'm numerate enough to follow the first part of your answer, except to say that if I am drawing a goal scored wins another 2 points not 3. And your conclusion seems to contradict the research in the book. I don't know which is right. Of course, as you say, keeping a clean sheet is not just about defenders. I hope we'll see forwards pressurising the opposition defence as teams like Liverpool and Spurs do.
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 18, 2019 6:49:37 GMT
basically a goal equates to an average of a point - look at the top 2 divisions. A goal scored is therefore worth more than one conceded as it more strongly relates to league position. There is also logic behind the higher value of a goal scored.... if if I am drawing, a goal scored wins me 3 Pts and a goal conceded loses me 1 if I am winning by a goal, a goal scored wins me 0 pts but one conceded loses me 1 if am losing by a goal, a goal scored wins me 1pt and One conceded costs me 0pts if I am winning or losing by more than a goal, the goal scored or conceded is aLso worth 0pts. therefore, on average, a goal scored is worth about 1.33 pts and a goal conceded is worth 0.67 pts to an average team, assuming the first three (most usual) scenarios are equally likely. In general - underlying both goals for and against is possession - the more you keep the ball, the more you have the opportunity of an incisive pass, and the less chance your opponent has. The misleading idea conveyed by the clean sheet stat is you should intentionally strive for a clean sheet through the best defenders above all else to win games. Many of those clean sheets are because one team was simply better in possession, occupying opponents higher up the pitch, denying the chance of creating chances - and as much to do with midfielders or attackers as defenders. Conclusion: you need good players all over the pitch to keep the ball off your opponentents and deter them attacking. This is the better route to clean sheets, overall. It’s certainly the better route to being higher up the league. We had a defensive record capable of the play offs last year, good possession stats, but below par on chances and goals. which tells you where our particular weakness lies. It isn’t defenders from what I see. I'm not sure I'm numerate enough to follow the first part of your answer, except to say that if I am drawing a goal scored wins another 2 points not 3. And your conclusion seems to contradict the research in the book. I don't know which is right. Of course, as you say, keeping a clean sheet is not just about defenders. I hope we'll see forwards pressurising the opposition defence as teams like Liverpool and Spurs do. Thanks - you are dead right it’s 2 pts. (I’ll amend) Rehashed an argument I remember for 3pts for a win
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Post by nutterpotter on Jun 18, 2019 12:12:18 GMT
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jun 18, 2019 12:15:20 GMT
We can only hope that Jones sees him as back up for midfield and right back. Sounds like he's lost his way a bit so could easily get his mojo back perhaps.
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Post by datguy on Jun 18, 2019 12:19:07 GMT
I've supported all of the signings so far.
But this fella screams of someone Luton should be bringing in, not Stoke. First worrying one.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jun 18, 2019 12:27:05 GMT
He's free, he still has potential, has suffered with injuries and seems a good character. And he's a squad player.
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