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Post by crapslinger on Jun 13, 2019 19:12:38 GMT
Our defence improved significantly when Batth came in and the biggest culprit by far for hopeful, floaty, balls to the striker's head was Shawcross. I agree Batth isn't most the cultured player on the ball but he's far from dreadful. I'd like to see a more cultured player alongside Batth (who I see as first choice CB at the moment) but we can probably get away with a couple of old school CBs if we have a quality DM at the base of the diamond which should also lessen the need for lumping it up front. Because he was told to play them! Batth barely found a Stoke player and when dribbling with it looked frightening. Teams let him have the ball and targeted him. He's of limited ability I agree, lacks pace but did a job last season however as you rightly say he will be targeted because of his weakness's.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 13, 2019 19:48:14 GMT
Because he was told to play them! Batth barely found a Stoke player and when dribbling with it looked frightening. Teams let him have the ball and targeted him. He's of limited ability I agree, lacks pace but did a job last season however as you rightly say he will be targeted because of his weakness's. He did well overall and will be a good squad player but I do think people have gone ott over him.
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Post by FranktheRabbit on Jun 13, 2019 19:51:59 GMT
Exactly. I just really don't get Bayern's dislike for the guy. In my opinion he was outstanding after his arrival, and I don't think anyone we could have brought in would have done any better. Certainly good value for the money we paid. Couldn't agree more and has been what Stoke have been missing since we lost our identity! Who gives a fuck if he isn't the best on the ball, he does what an old fashioned centre back should do, puts his body on the line to DEFEND!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 13, 2019 19:54:55 GMT
In my opinion he was outstanding after his arrival, and I don't think anyone we could have brought in would have done any better. Certainly good value for the money we paid. Couldn't agree more and has been what Stoke have been missing since we lost our identity! Who gives a fuck if he isn't the best on the ball, he does what an old fashioned centre back should do, puts his body on the line to DEFEND! I don’t dislike him ffs. Like I’ve said I think he’s ok And I care because it was targeted and it made us function even less as a side that could build play up and attack. He has his uses and is well worth his place in the squad but he’s limited. It’s how you negate that matters. Teams targeted him, when that happens you know you have an issue.
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Post by FranktheRabbit on Jun 13, 2019 20:11:25 GMT
Couldn't agree more and has been what Stoke have been missing since we lost our identity! Who gives a fuck if he isn't the best on the ball, he does what an old fashioned centre back should do, puts his body on the line to DEFEND! I don’t dislike him ffs. Like I’ve said I think he’s ok And I care because it was targeted and it made us function even less as a side that could build play up and attack. He has his uses and is well worth his place in the squad but he’s limited. It’s how you negate that matters. Teams targeted him, when that happens you know you have an issue. Bollocks. I'm sorry but if you think Danny Batth was an issue at Stoke last season then you know fuck all.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 13, 2019 20:15:18 GMT
I don’t dislike him ffs. Like I’ve said I think he’s ok And I care because it was targeted and it made us function even less as a side that could build play up and attack. He has his uses and is well worth his place in the squad but he’s limited. It’s how you negate that matters. Teams targeted him, when that happens you know you have an issue. Bollocks. I'm sorry but if you think Danny Batth was an issue at Stoke last season then you know fuck all. Not at all. Teams played on it, they knew if they let him have it, they’d get it back quickly. It happened loads of times, there’d be a press and they’d let Batth have it with the intention of robbing him because he’s Bambi on ice or that he’d kick it out. He defended well but he hamstrung us when we had the ball. Like I said it’s how you negate that that matters as he is a good defender.
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Post by vahl on Jun 14, 2019 6:12:02 GMT
Most of the leagues' best strikers are in or close to the lower-left quadrant!? Is this graph telling us that being a better striker is pretty much independent of the ability to win aerial duels? The top right sees a fair few pretty ineffectual "lumps" I'd say it speaks more about the tactics that certain teams employ. None of the promoted sides this year were particularly reliant on target men and aerial wing play. Horses for courses, I'd Imagine Mama Sidibe would have been in the top right quad, but in spite of his goal return he was absolutely integral for how that team played. Graphs like this are superb, and I do love looking at them. But stats like this should always be used in context. It's why players like Micheal Keane get blown up to be the next big thing when in reality their stats are so high because of Burnley's commitment to a heavily defensive game. Put him in a more expansive team like Keane at Everton and he looks like half the player. You are trying to put a positive spin on it but you answered yourself too. 'I'd say it speaks more about the tactics that certain teams employ. None of the promoted sides this year were particularly reliant on target men and aerial wing play.' Doesn't that say it all?
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 14, 2019 6:22:27 GMT
I'd say it speaks more about the tactics that certain teams employ. None of the promoted sides this year were particularly reliant on target men and aerial wing play. Horses for courses, I'd Imagine Mama Sidibe would have been in the top right quad, but in spite of his goal return he was absolutely integral for how that team played. Graphs like this are superb, and I do love looking at them. But stats like this should always be used in context. It's why players like Micheal Keane get blown up to be the next big thing when in reality their stats are so high because of Burnley's commitment to a heavily defensive game. Put him in a more expansive team like Keane at Everton and he looks like half the player. You are trying to put a positive spin on it but you answered yourself too. 'I'd say it speaks more about the tactics that certain teams employ. None of the promoted sides this year were particularly reliant on target men and aerial wing play.' Doesn't that say it all? Not really, cause things change every year and teams play differently every year. All 3 promoted teams play very differently too because of their personnel. Villa are pretty direct outside of the defence whilst Norwich play high tempo wide pressing and neat interchanges resulting in overloads. . Just because no one used target men this year doesn’t mean it’s a tactic that can’t work.
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Post by vahl on Jun 14, 2019 6:30:26 GMT
You are trying to put a positive spin on it but you answered yourself too. 'I'd say it speaks more about the tactics that certain teams employ. None of the promoted sides this year were particularly reliant on target men and aerial wing play.' Doesn't that say it all? Not really, cause things change every year and teams play differently every year. All 3 promoted teams play very differently too because of their personnel. Villa are pretty direct outside of the defence whilst Norwich play high tempo wide pressing and neat interchanges resulting in overloads. . Just because no one used target men this year doesn’t mean it’s a tactic that can’t work. I'd say that, almost entirely ironically, we are the proof that the Target Man systems don't work. Our free-fall is pretty self explanatory. You can blame the players but ultimately we've been trying to flog a dead horse for years now. That's why I'm in full support of the Diamond project. An entirely new way of playing for us is just what the Dr ordered. Sparky was on to something but then shit it completely when he smashed Man City.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 14, 2019 7:47:50 GMT
Not really, cause things change every year and teams play differently every year. All 3 promoted teams play very differently too because of their personnel. Villa are pretty direct outside of the defence whilst Norwich play high tempo wide pressing and neat interchanges resulting in overloads. . Just because no one used target men this year doesn’t mean it’s a tactic that can’t work. I'd say that, almost entirely ironically, we are the proof that the Target Man systems don't work. Our free-fall is pretty self explanatory. You can blame the players but ultimately we've been trying to flog a dead horse for years now. That's why I'm in full support of the Diamond project. An entirely new way of playing for us is just what the Dr ordered. Sparky was on to something but then shit it completely when he smashed Man City. I still think looking back he stumbled on false 9 instead of making an actual tactical commitment to it. It was a way for him to get Afellay and Bojan in the side together, without losing Arnautovic and Shaqiri. I don't believe he had any really nuance of how to apply it long term as demonstrated by the fact he got rid of it after a couple of games after we drew a blank at WBA away. If he did genuinely believe in it, rather than sheerly doing it out of necessity he would have reverted to it at any point in the next 18 months. He had a similar attitude in his brief spell at Soton, just putting a team out and letting them sort it with a minimal commitment towards inverted wingers. Awful stuff. I wouldn't call what Hughes then employed "target man" play either, the forward never had anyone round him. We played inverted wingers which reduced crossing and more often than not put it straight to his feet rather than his head. We didn't score from a corner for around 40 games which you would think would be a necessity playing that system. It's no mistake Pulis has a career average of 30% goals from set pieces because they are fundamental to his target man/cage system. Lambert's tactics were pretty much, "give it to Shaqiri and hope for the best". Everyone else was secondary in that system, it was all just going through Shaq. Rowett meanwhile operated a bizarre no tempo possession play which was completely in contrast with what had worked with him before again with an inverted winger in Tom Ince. I still think Rowett was trying to fit a system to the players rather than bringing in players to fit his established systems. Which as we all know is back to front. This is a man who told Will Hughes he's not his kind of player, so why then play a system based around midfield and defensive ball retention when you move clubs? I agree with you, if we're going to play diamond let's go for it 100%. But at this stage and given the 3-4 years of tactical ambiguity we've been subject to, I'll happily just take a commitment to any type of tactical system as it stands.
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Post by vahl on Jun 14, 2019 9:48:46 GMT
I'd say that, almost entirely ironically, we are the proof that the Target Man systems don't work. Our free-fall is pretty self explanatory. You can blame the players but ultimately we've been trying to flog a dead horse for years now. That's why I'm in full support of the Diamond project. An entirely new way of playing for us is just what the Dr ordered. Sparky was on to something but then shit it completely when he smashed Man City. I still think looking back he stumbled on false 9 instead of making an actual tactical commitment to it. It was a way for him to get Afellay and Bojan in the side together, without losing Arnautovic and Shaqiri. I don't believe he had any really nuance of how to apply it long term as demonstrated by the fact he got rid of it after a couple of games after we drew a blank at WBA away. If he did genuinely believe in it, rather than sheerly doing it out of necessity he would have reverted to it at any point in the next 18 months. He had a similar attitude in his brief spell at Soton, just putting a team out and letting them sort it with a minimal commitment towards inverted wingers. Awful stuff. I wouldn't call what Hughes then employed "target man" play either, the forward never had anyone round him. We played inverted wingers which reduced crossing and more often than not put it straight to his feet rather than his head. We didn't score from a corner for around 40 games which you would think would be a necessity playing that system. It's no mistake Pulis has a career average of 30% goals from set pieces because they are fundamental to his target man/cage system. Lambert's tactics were pretty much, "give it to Shaqiri and hope for the best". Everyone else was secondary in that system, it was all just going through Shaq. Rowett meanwhile operated a bizarre no tempo possession play which was completely in contrast with what had worked with him before again with an inverted winger in Tom Ince. I still think Rowett was trying to fit a system to the players rather than bringing in players to fit his established systems. Which as we all know is back to front. This is a man who told Will Hughes he's not his kind of player, so why then play a system based around midfield and defensive ball retention when you move clubs? I agree with you, if we're going to play diamond let's go for it 100%. But at this stage and given the 3-4 years of tactical ambiguity we've been subject to, I'll happily just take a commitment to any type of tactical system as it stands. I see what you're saying. When you go through it all man-for-man it's not great reading, as you've put it. Quite rightly too. However, I'm seeing Peter Crouch running out on to the pitch wearing our colours in all the years gone by he was here and I'm just seeing us playing with a Target Man - one of the best in the business of course - but when he's on the pitch there's only one way any team is playing when attacking, be it Liverpool, Spurs or Stoke. All in all I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Championship has moved on from that style of play, as did the Premiership and we were struggling to adapt until now. When (not IF!) we click with this Diamond we should be in for some quality stuff.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jun 14, 2019 10:28:50 GMT
As for Pelly Ruddock, what's the latest?
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jun 14, 2019 10:40:03 GMT
I still think looking back he stumbled on false 9 instead of making an actual tactical commitment to it. It was a way for him to get Afellay and Bojan in the side together, without losing Arnautovic and Shaqiri. I don't believe he had any really nuance of how to apply it long term as demonstrated by the fact he got rid of it after a couple of games after we drew a blank at WBA away. If he did genuinely believe in it, rather than sheerly doing it out of necessity he would have reverted to it at any point in the next 18 months. He had a similar attitude in his brief spell at Soton, just putting a team out and letting them sort it with a minimal commitment towards inverted wingers. Awful stuff. I wouldn't call what Hughes then employed "target man" play either, the forward never had anyone round him. We played inverted wingers which reduced crossing and more often than not put it straight to his feet rather than his head. We didn't score from a corner for around 40 games which you would think would be a necessity playing that system. It's no mistake Pulis has a career average of 30% goals from set pieces because they are fundamental to his target man/cage system. Lambert's tactics were pretty much, "give it to Shaqiri and hope for the best". Everyone else was secondary in that system, it was all just going through Shaq. Rowett meanwhile operated a bizarre no tempo possession play which was completely in contrast with what had worked with him before again with an inverted winger in Tom Ince. I still think Rowett was trying to fit a system to the players rather than bringing in players to fit his established systems. Which as we all know is back to front. This is a man who told Will Hughes he's not his kind of player, so why then play a system based around midfield and defensive ball retention when you move clubs? I agree with you, if we're going to play diamond let's go for it 100%. But at this stage and given the 3-4 years of tactical ambiguity we've been subject to, I'll happily just take a commitment to any type of tactical system as it stands. I see what you're saying. When you go through it all man-for-man it's not great reading, as you've put it. Quite rightly too. However, I'm seeing Peter Crouch running out on to the pitch wearing our colours in all the years gone by he was here and I'm just seeing us playing with a Target Man - one of the best in the business of course - but when he's on the pitch there's only one way any team is playing when attacking, be it Liverpool, Spurs or Stoke. All in all I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Championship has moved on from that style of play, as did the Premiership and we were struggling to adapt until now. When (not IF!) we click with this Diamond we should be in for some quality stuff. Fulham were promoted with a target man as a key player and Brighton had Glenn Murray so hard to conclude the system doesn't work on last season alone. Surely depends on the balance and what support you provide. Despite Byern ignoring the evidenc eof his eyes and the stats, Vokes is good in the air, holds the ball well and seems an okay finisher. He needs support from either Afobe or Gregory directly and then service from wide. Any system with the right players can work, look at the differences between Burnley and Place or Sheff Utd, Nowrich and Villa as examples
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Post by vahl on Jun 14, 2019 12:10:51 GMT
I see what you're saying. When you go through it all man-for-man it's not great reading, as you've put it. Quite rightly too. However, I'm seeing Peter Crouch running out on to the pitch wearing our colours in all the years gone by he was here and I'm just seeing us playing with a Target Man - one of the best in the business of course - but when he's on the pitch there's only one way any team is playing when attacking, be it Liverpool, Spurs or Stoke. All in all I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Championship has moved on from that style of play, as did the Premiership and we were struggling to adapt until now. When (not IF!) we click with this Diamond we should be in for some quality stuff. Fulham were promoted with a target man as a key player and Brighton had Glenn Murray so hard to conclude the system doesn't work on last season alone. Surely depends on the balance and what support you provide. Despite Byern ignoring the evidenc eof his eyes and the stats, Vokes is good in the air, holds the ball well and seems an okay finisher. He needs support from either Afobe or Gregory directly and then service from wide. Any system with the right players can work, look at the differences between Burnley and Place or Sheff Utd, Nowrich and Villa as examples Fulham are 1 team out of 6 promoted in the last 2 seasons though? I am confident that the good ol' lump it to the big man is a thing of the past now. I don't know why Vokes was signed. We knew we weren't going to make a push for the promotion spots half way through the season, didn't we? What you ideally want, is your 2 strikers to be polar opposite for the diamond to work, and that is where the secret to its success lies imo. 1 complete forward (Afobe) and 1 maverick that will run with the ball and run the channels - so to leave the spaces forward for Powell to exploit. People talk about having FB's that provide width but in any formation that's a given now. The diamond will naturally give even the weakest FB's space to run at. I don't know if Vokes will be a guaranteed start when the team is settled. I guess it depends on what works best when they all get together. He doesn't score goals and eventually we will need this to change. Afobe could be a massive player this season alongside Gregory. Even better, and probably dreamland, would be a Dwight Gayle or (for me personally, Prem bound I know) Ollie Watkins alongside him (Afobe).
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Post by kelw on Jun 14, 2019 12:16:41 GMT
Fulham were promoted with a target man as a key player and Brighton had Glenn Murray so hard to conclude the system doesn't work on last season alone. Surely depends on the balance and what support you provide. Despite Byern ignoring the evidenc eof his eyes and the stats, Vokes is good in the air, holds the ball well and seems an okay finisher. He needs support from either Afobe or Gregory directly and then service from wide. Any system with the right players can work, look at the differences between Burnley and Place or Sheff Utd, Nowrich and Villa as examples Fulham are 1 team out of 6 promoted in the last 2 seasons though? I am confident that the good ol' lump it to the big man is a thing of the past now. I don't know why Vokes was signed. We knew we weren't going to make a push for the promotion spots half way through the season, didn't we? What you ideally want, is your 2 strikers to be polar opposite for the diamond to work, and that is where the secret to its success lies imo. 1 complete forward (Afobe) and 1 maverick that will run with the ball and run the channels - so to leave the spaces forward for Powell to exploit. People talk about having FB's that provide width but in any formation that's a given now. The diamond will naturally give even the weakest FB's space to run at. I don't know if Vokes will be a guaranteed start when the team is settled. I guess it depends on what works best when they all get together. He doesn't score goals and eventually we will need this to change. Afobe could be a massive player this season alongside Gregory. Even better, and probably dreamland, would be a Dwight Gayle or (for me personally, Prem bound I know) Ollie Watkins alongside him (Afobe). I think we saw with Vokes v Sheff U how dangerous he is if he gets some service. A player I think we'll see the best of next term
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Post by vahl on Jun 14, 2019 12:21:03 GMT
Fulham are 1 team out of 6 promoted in the last 2 seasons though? I am confident that the good ol' lump it to the big man is a thing of the past now. I don't know why Vokes was signed. We knew we weren't going to make a push for the promotion spots half way through the season, didn't we? What you ideally want, is your 2 strikers to be polar opposite for the diamond to work, and that is where the secret to its success lies imo. 1 complete forward (Afobe) and 1 maverick that will run with the ball and run the channels - so to leave the spaces forward for Powell to exploit. People talk about having FB's that provide width but in any formation that's a given now. The diamond will naturally give even the weakest FB's space to run at. I don't know if Vokes will be a guaranteed start when the team is settled. I guess it depends on what works best when they all get together. He doesn't score goals and eventually we will need this to change. Afobe could be a massive player this season alongside Gregory. Even better, and probably dreamland, would be a Dwight Gayle or (for me personally, Prem bound I know) Ollie Watkins alongside him (Afobe). I think we saw with Vokes v Sheff U how dangerous he is if he gets some service. A player I think we'll see the best of next term I don't know tbh. I saw us beat Liverpool 6-1 in the last game of the season once and here we are discussing our next Championship adventure.
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Post by southcoaststokie on Jun 14, 2019 12:25:10 GMT
As for Pelly Ruddock, what's the latest? Good try 👍👍👍😁😁, is he a centre half or a target man, I forget.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jun 14, 2019 13:57:09 GMT
As for Pelly Ruddock, what's the latest? Good try 👍👍👍😁😁, is he a centre half or a target man, I forget. Why have separate threads for player rumours when they get hi-jacked by rambling off topic?
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Post by southcoaststokie on Jun 14, 2019 17:34:28 GMT
Good try 👍👍👍😁😁, is he a centre half or a target man, I forget. Why have separate threads for player rumours when they get hi-jacked by rambling off topic? I know what you mean Jimmy, you see a thread about a player at the top of the page, and you are lucky if you can even see a mention of the player for pages , too many threads going off topic atm.
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Post by bolders on Jun 14, 2019 18:11:06 GMT
Good try 👍👍👍😁😁, is he a centre half or a target man, I forget. Why have separate threads for player rumours when they get hi-jacked by rambling off topic? You mean they hijacked by one poster
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Post by LGH87 on Jun 14, 2019 23:08:19 GMT
Bollocks. I'm sorry but if you think Danny Batth was an issue at Stoke last season then you know fuck all. Not at all. Teams played on it, they knew if they let him have it, they’d get it back quickly. It happened loads of times, there’d be a press and they’d let Batth have it with the intention of robbing him because he’s Bambi on ice or that he’d kick it out. He defended well but he hamstrung us when we had the ball. Like I said it’s how you negate that that matters as he is a good defender. Two good full backs and a proper holding midfield player. That’s how you negate it. Three options for him to give the ball to at all times
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 15, 2019 7:35:29 GMT
Not at all. Teams played on it, they knew if they let him have it, they’d get it back quickly. It happened loads of times, there’d be a press and they’d let Batth have it with the intention of robbing him because he’s Bambi on ice or that he’d kick it out. He defended well but he hamstrung us when we had the ball. Like I said it’s how you negate that that matters as he is a good defender. Two good full backs and a proper holding midfield player. That’s how you negate it. Three options for him to give the ball to at all times It would help but I still would prefer us just not giving him the ball tbh.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 15, 2019 7:36:21 GMT
Why have separate threads for player rumours when they get hi-jacked by rambling off topic? I know what you mean Jimmy, you see a thread about a player at the top of the page, and you are lucky if you can even see a mention of the player for pages , too many threads going off topic atm. And that tells you fuck all is happening.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 8, 2019 19:06:04 GMT
Spinksy says he remains a possibility
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 8, 2019 19:11:39 GMT
Spinksy says he remains a possibility I get a bit nervous when he keeps telling us how 'really, really good' this squad is? A bit of pressure there to play "really, really good" every week!....fingers crossed and I hope he's right!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 19:13:23 GMT
Surely he’s got the message now that Luton aren’t going to sell to us.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 8, 2019 19:15:29 GMT
Surely he’s got the message now that Luton aren’t going to sell to us. Why? Stacey turned us down, according to reports, to sign for a Premier League team, that's the players choice not Luton. As for Justin, he turned out to be too expensive for us now and again went to another Premier League side. I think all this "Luton won't sell to Stoke" talk is a complete myth. If the money's right, they would.
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Post by kelw on Jul 8, 2019 19:18:13 GMT
As for Pelly Ruddock, what's the latest? I googled him and he isn't the son of Neil at a guess
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Post by BraveSirRobin on Jul 8, 2019 19:21:29 GMT
As for Pelly Ruddock, what's the latest? I googled him and he isn't the son of Neil at a guess more likely the son of donovan.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 8, 2019 20:01:58 GMT
Luton fans still maintaining a move here would be "sideways"
Jesus.
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