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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 8:15:55 GMT
It's not so much that as I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of Edwards, who is both quick and a good crosser. Verlinden wouldn't need to physically dominate a central midfield, he'd be the number 10 or the second striker. He'll need to adapt but his skill set suggests he can and his performance in that role against Norwich was promising. Vokes isn't just going to be someone to get crosses in to, he's the focal point who's there to win the aerial duels and hold the ball up and drag defenders away to create space. He's done that very well as part of a strike partnership throughout his career. Most managers have a preferred way of playing that they seek to implement when they arrive. They stick with what's worked for them, rightly or wrongly. I personally don't think there is a system that the current squad fits easily. Maybe you could just about make a case for 3-5-2 with McClean at LWB, or 4-3-3 with Clucas at LB, but even then it's not perfect and you're relying on square pegs and at least one no mark in midfield. I'd actually rather see us rip it up and start again and build something more exciting and fresher than carry on with something mouldy and moribund, even if it takes us longer to do that. ...which to me represents let’s say “high optimism” re Verlinden and Edwards. (As well as Vokes getting 20 goals if the team play through the middle etc). So we’ve been there in our respective views about adaptability. But on your last point - even if we accept your perspective that he actually is creating something better, more exciting, fresher, which we don’t have any evidence for yet, can you see Jones given time? I don’t get what you’re seeing or not seeing in Edwards. It isn’t a question of adaptation, he fits the system already. He’s an attacking full back and one of the best performers under Jones thus far? He’s not the finished article but no player his age is. It doesn’t matter if Vokes doesn’t get 20 goals if his overall work and role helps the team score more. The answer to your last question is ‘it depends’. I don’t think you can make this kind of appointment and not give a manager time, personally. It was always going to take time for a young manager to find his feet in this league and it it was always going to take time for him to implement his methods and get his squad together, so in that sense, it would be stupid not to give him time. If things are looking like an absolute disaster and performances and results look like sending us down again then the board will probably have to act. If performances are encouraging however, even if results aren’t initially, he’ll get time from fans and the board. The fans only really turned wholesale on Rowett once he dug them and Bojan out publicly, they’d just about tolerated his tedious, grim incompetence up to that point, even though we were going nowhere with it.
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 6, 2019 8:18:40 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault. I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will). I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter. It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. NJ is a country mile away from what happened at Norwich - Farley is one of a growing cluster of managers without being experience of elite clubs, within a structure created by Webber based on analytics and using pan European scouting. (Similar to Wagner, Espirito Santos, Karanka, the Dof at Villa, Lampard even, Biesla). We appointed a guy with nothing of that experience. NJ was what they call a punt
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Post by marrer on Jun 6, 2019 8:36:38 GMT
I wish that people would stop quoting ‘experience’ as a key attribute for a manager. It’s totally irrelevant. This season the top 6 consisted of managers who have less than 4 full seasons’ experience at Championship level between them. 2 of them were virgin managers (Moore, only 6 previous games as a caretaker) and Fat Frank. 2 had never managed in the Championship before (Farke and Bielsa). Of the other 2, Wilder had one full season in the Championship behind him and Smith less than 3. The ‘experienced’ managers did nothing. For the love of fuck please stop this ridiculous ‘he’s never done it before therefore he can’t possibly achieve anything’ attitude. If anything, the less experienced guys are proving more successful. I’m just trying to reconcile the ‘virgin managers’ with your ‘love of (a) fuck ’ comment😀
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Post by potterpaul on Jun 6, 2019 8:37:32 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault. I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will). I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter. It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. I feel there was little thought gone into appointing Jones it seems to me it was a case of We don't score goals, Luton do, Jones tick We don't win games, Luton do, Jones tick Go get him boys. And I'm sick of hearing this Norwich comparison, WE ARE NOT NORWICH, it's like saying Leicester won the PL so can we. When you first consider a manager appointment the first thing you ask yourselves is how can WE make this appointment successful, what's his style, have we got a decent percentage of what he needs to get off to a decent start. With Jones the board should of known this was not the case and appointing him would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 8:38:48 GMT
Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. NJ is a country mile away from what happened at Norwich - Farley is one of a growing cluster of managers without being experience of elite clubs, within a structure created by Webber based on analytics and using pan European scouting. (Similar to Wagner, Espirito Santos, Karanka, the Dof at Villa, Lampard even, Biesla). We appointed a guy with nothing of that experience. NJ was what they call a punt So what you're saying is that nobody who hasn't worked for an elite club can be a success? And that Lampard, who wasn't even a coach at an elite club but has played for a couple, is a better bet than any manager who drags himself up by the bootstraps of the lower leagues?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 8:40:32 GMT
Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. I feel there was little thought gone into appointing Jones it seems to me it was a case of We don't score goals, Luton do, Jones tick We don't win games, Luton do, Jones tick Go get him boys. And I'm sick of hearing this Norwich comparison, WE ARE NOT NORWICH, it's like saying Leicester won the PL so can we. When you first consider a manager appointment the first thing you ask yourselves is how can WE make this appointment successful, what's his style, have we got a decent percentage of what he needs to get off to a decent start. With Jones the board should of known this was not the case and appointing him would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. Norwich appointed Farke with the express view that appointing him would be part of a process that would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. There are similarities between us and Norwich. It's not like for like, but it's not a completely different situation.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 8:43:32 GMT
Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. NJ is a country mile away from what happened at Norwich - Farley is one of a growing cluster of managers without being experience of elite clubs, within a structure created by Webber based on analytics and using pan European scouting. (Similar to Wagner, Espirito Santos, Karanka, the Dof at Villa, Lampard even, Biesla). We appointed a guy with nothing of that experience. NJ was what they call a punt I know about Webber and I know about Farke and Webber's previous tenure at Huddersfield with a similar model under Wagner. Espirito Santo is a complete one off that we can't hope to match because of Mendes, that's not so much football innovation but a marriage of convenience between Fosun and Mendes' agency. Lampard's executed well in the loan market but will have a job to rebuild the squad this year when he loses his 3 absolutely crucial players who won't return, there's question marks as to the sustainability of it. Bielsa is a tactical genius but largely got a lot more out of the squad that was previously there, rather than some great recruitment innovations. Villa again executed well in the market, and made a prudent choice in Dean Smith. But even so, there were detractors for him among Villa fans late into the season. Karanka? The guy throws a wobbler at the worst possible times, he's done it at two clubs now. My point about Farke, is if you go onto the Norwich forum and look around this time last year, it's full of posts referring to the fact the experiment has failed and they should kill it. Same just a few games into the season when they won one out of their first 6. Recruitment innovation is something we do not have, granted. But Jones tactically demonstrated astuteness at Luton and executed a plan. I can't remember the last time we went into a game with a coherent tactical plan from one game to the next. Likewise, Norwich fans weren't too excited about who they were bringing in. Chris Wilder slowly built his side at Sheff Utd after being appointed. No flash names, no flashy recruitment analytics of stats. Just a commitment to a tactical plan and a great level of coaching ability. We can't rule out Nathan Jones succeeding or anything else yet, he's only been here half a year. You can't mention NJ in the same breath as Lampard and say that one was a punt and the other one wasn't. Lampard was an incredibly risky appointment, you can count on one hand the number of top players who have gone onto achieve in management over the past few decades.
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Post by potterpaul on Jun 6, 2019 8:45:51 GMT
I feel there was little thought gone into appointing Jones it seems to me it was a case of We don't score goals, Luton do, Jones tick We don't win games, Luton do, Jones tick Go get him boys. And I'm sick of hearing this Norwich comparison, WE ARE NOT NORWICH, it's like saying Leicester won the PL so can we. When you first consider a manager appointment the first thing you ask yourselves is how can WE make this appointment successful, what's his style, have we got a decent percentage of what he needs to get off to a decent start. With Jones the board should of known this was not the case and appointing him would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. Norwich appointed Farke with the express view that appointing him would be part of a process that would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. There are similarities between us and Norwich. It's not like for like, but it's not a completely different situation. It doesn't make a scrap of difference Rob, too many variables from club to club, this last season they got their shit together we didn't and haven't for 3 seasons.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 8:50:08 GMT
Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. I feel there was little thought gone into appointing Jones it seems to me it was a case of We don't score goals, Luton do, Jones tick We don't win games, Luton do, Jones tick Go get him boys. And I'm sick of hearing this Norwich comparison, WE ARE NOT NORWICH, it's like saying Leicester won the PL so can we. When you first consider a manager appointment the first thing you ask yourselves is how can WE make this appointment successful, what's his style, have we got a decent percentage of what he needs to get off to a decent start. With Jones the board should of known this was not the case and appointing him would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. We aren't Norwich, I'm not even saying NJ is guaranteed to succeed. I'm just merely pointing out striking similarities between posts on here and posts on their board: "We all said we''d give Farke 10 games (imo the board will stick with him) but we could realistically be in bottom three by time these games are up, IF Farke can''t get results. And if that happens it''s hard to see how any manager starts to turn things round." "Unfortunately the problems are far deeper and wider than farke. He is an inexperienced manager with no track record at all let alone the championship. The board have committed us to a massive strategic change which was always high risk." "New season. Same problems as all last season." "He''s had more than 50 league games and it just isn''t getting any better - continually shipping goals for fun. Take out the Farke references and they could fit on any thread on the board. The lesson I'm putting forward is not that "oh Norwich were shit but then good which means we will be" it's that time reveals all, and we have committed to this Manager. We may as well see how that investment turns out, I'm as concerned as the next person but it's early June and the pieces are not in place, until they are it's all rampant speculation.
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Post by mattador78 on Jun 6, 2019 9:08:30 GMT
If Leicester won the premier league so can we! Not saying we ever will but somebody has to win it 😉👍
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 6, 2019 9:31:45 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault. I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will). I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter. It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. NJ is a country mile away from what happened at Norwich - Farlke is one of a growing cluster of managers without being experience of elite clubs, within a structure created by Webber based on analytics and using pan European scouting. (Similar to Wagner, Espirito Santos, Karanka, the Dof at Villa, Lampard even, Biesla). We appointed a guy with nothing of that experience. NJ was what they call a punt
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 9:36:34 GMT
Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. NJ is a country mile away from what happened at Norwich - Farlke is one of a growing cluster of managers without being experience of elite clubs, within a structure created by Webber based on analytics and using pan European scouting. (Similar to Wagner, Espirito Santos, Karanka, the Dof at Villa, Lampard even, Biesla). We appointed a guy with nothing of that experience. NJ was what they call a punt I replied above.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 9:36:36 GMT
Norwich appointed Farke with the express view that appointing him would be part of a process that would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. There are similarities between us and Norwich. It's not like for like, but it's not a completely different situation. It doesn't make a scrap of difference Rob, too many variables from club to club, this last season they got their shit together we didn't and haven't for 3 seasons. It didn’t happen overnight for them even though they’re way ahead of schedule. They were in the same boat as us before Webber went there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 9:45:07 GMT
Lets stop kidding ourselves the club has been in a unstoppable downward spiral for the last three and a half years and the inexperienced (at top level) Mr Jones is unlikely to be able to reverse that cycle on a limited budget. We are paying the price for our horrendous player recruitment which brought in the likes of Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, Wolscheid and Joselu for countless millions and we are now unashamedly shopping for B List Championship journeymen and ageing PL rejects. Such players may help to consolidate our position in the Championship but they wont get us promoted and if they did they would need replacing at prohibitive expense. When I first started supporting the team over 60 years ago we were a mediocre second tier club with modest ambitions. I fear that we are likely to remain at a similar level for the foreseeable future. Do you walk around with a permanent rain cloud over your head?
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 6, 2019 9:45:52 GMT
Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books. I feel there was little thought gone into appointing Jones it seems to me it was a case of We don't score goals, Luton do, Jones tick We don't win games, Luton do, Jones tick Go get him boys. And I'm sick of hearing this Norwich comparison, WE ARE NOT NORWICH, it's like saying Leicester won the PL so can we. When you first consider a manager appointment the first thing you ask yourselves is how can WE make this appointment successful, what's his style, have we got a decent percentage of what he needs to get off to a decent start. With Jones the board should of known this was not the case and appointing him would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. Yea, .....or NJ was chosen due to a good knowledge of League 1 players, as the Board gave up on a fast return and planned to operate with a squad costing half of the wages, while recouping 20m or so net profit from sales. I’ve seen mention of NJ being an alternative to tired names etc. Well I’m actually Not blasting NJ - but would rather we employed a DOF from the coaching hierarchy of Dortmund/ PSG/ Liverpool/ Bayern too - and build an infrastructure for elite performance. And NJ to work within it
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 10:09:55 GMT
I feel there was little thought gone into appointing Jones it seems to me it was a case of We don't score goals, Luton do, Jones tick We don't win games, Luton do, Jones tick Go get him boys. And I'm sick of hearing this Norwich comparison, WE ARE NOT NORWICH, it's like saying Leicester won the PL so can we. When you first consider a manager appointment the first thing you ask yourselves is how can WE make this appointment successful, what's his style, have we got a decent percentage of what he needs to get off to a decent start. With Jones the board should of known this was not the case and appointing him would require wholesale changes that could take seasons to be completed. Yea, .....or NJ was chosen due to a good knowledge of League 1 players, as the Board gave up on a fast return and planned to operate with a squad costing half of the wages, while recouping 20m or so net profit from sales. I’ve seen mention of NJ being an alternative to tired names etc. Well I’m actually Not blasting NJ - but would rather we employed a DOF from the coaching hierarchy of Dortmund/ PSG/ Liverpool/ Bayern too - and build an infrastructure for elite performance. And NJ to work within it Spending lots of money =/= fast return. Last season proved that in abundance. Though I agree with your wider point, intelligent recruitment trumps expense driven recruitment every time.
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Post by cousindupree on Jun 6, 2019 10:40:06 GMT
NJ is a country mile away from what happened at Norwich - Farley is one of a growing cluster of managers without being experience of elite clubs, within a structure created by Webber based on analytics and using pan European scouting. (Similar to Wagner, Espirito Santos, Karanka, the Dof at Villa, Lampard even, Biesla). We appointed a guy with nothing of that experience. NJ was what they call a punt So what you're saying is that nobody who hasn't worked for an elite club can be a success? And that Lampard, who wasn't even a coach at an elite club but has played for a couple, is a better bet than any manager who drags himself up by the bootstraps of the lower leagues? I think you underestimate what knowledge comes from being involved in an elite club. Farke would have learnt a hell of a lot about structure and process and of course knowledge of the european market with significant contacts. I am not surprised he has succeeded just like Wagner did at Huddersfield similar backgrounds of course. I wouldn't understimate Lampards knowledge of coaching gained over many years at an elite club. Jones of course has knowledge of Luton Town and league 2 and half a season in league 1 in his locker. He is vastly inexperienced and has limited knowledge of implementing a successful new process. I genuinely hope he succeeds as he has a lot of attributes and is driven. Alas i think it may take a good few years before he gets us anywhere near promotion. Meanwhile with the rumoured signings he wants he seems to me to be trying to turn us into Luton Town. Many on here will be happy with that but for me a 10 yr legacy of premier league and the richest owners in the Championship we really should be aiming higher and bringing in people with some serious knowledge and experience gained from being in an elite club.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 10:57:25 GMT
So what you're saying is that nobody who hasn't worked for an elite club can be a success? And that Lampard, who wasn't even a coach at an elite club but has played for a couple, is a better bet than any manager who drags himself up by the bootstraps of the lower leagues? I think you underestimate what knowledge comes from being involved in an elite club. Farke would have learnt a hell of a lot about structure and process and of course knowledge of the european market with significant contacts. I am not surprised he has succeeded just like Wagner did at Huddersfield similar backgrounds of course. I wouldn't understimate Lampards knowledge of coaching gained over many years at an elite club. Jones of course has knowledge of Luton Town and league 2 and half a season in league 1 in his locker. He is vastly inexperienced and has limited knowledge of implementing a successful new process. I genuinely hope he succeeds as he has a lot of attributes and is driven. Alas i think it may take a good few years before he gets us anywhere near promotion. Meanwhile with the rumoured signings he wants he seems to me to be trying to turn us into Luton Town. Many on here will be happy with that but for me a 10 yr legacy of premier league and the richest owners in the Championship we really should be aiming higher and bringing in people with some serious knowledge and experience gained from being in an elite club. How many elite players have we seen crash and burn as managers though? Absolutely loads? It's great having the experience but if you're unable to absorb or communicate or parlay that it counts for nothing. What you seem to be saying is that there is no scope for an inexperienced manager from the lower leagues to do well or climb the ladder. I'm not having that at all, it's nonsense. Yeah, Jones is inexperienced. Yeah, it may take a while. I'm prepared for that if it means we create something new and interesting and blows away the cobwebs and I think the board were too. The snobbery about the lower leagues is sad and I don't know what basis you have for saying he's 'trying to turn us into Luton' as a perjorative? If he 'turns us into' a free scoring, energetic promotion juggernaut then that's a...good...thing, no?
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 11:06:53 GMT
So what you're saying is that nobody who hasn't worked for an elite club can be a success? And that Lampard, who wasn't even a coach at an elite club but has played for a couple, is a better bet than any manager who drags himself up by the bootstraps of the lower leagues? I think you underestimate what knowledge comes from being involved in an elite club. Farke would have learnt a hell of a lot about structure and process and of course knowledge of the european market with significant contacts. I am not surprised he has succeeded just like Wagner did at Huddersfield similar backgrounds of course. I wouldn't understimate Lampards knowledge of coaching gained over many years at an elite club. Jones of course has knowledge of Luton Town and league 2 and half a season in league 1 in his locker. He is vastly inexperienced and has limited knowledge of implementing a successful new process. I genuinely hope he succeeds as he has a lot of attributes and is driven. Alas i think it may take a good few years before he gets us anywhere near promotion. Meanwhile with the rumoured signings he wants he seems to me to be trying to turn us into Luton Town. Many on here will be happy with that but for me a 10 yr legacy of premier league and the richest owners in the Championship we really should be aiming higher and bringing in people with some serious knowledge and experience gained from being in an elite club. Wagner managed Dortmund's second team for 4 years after coaching under Klopp for years. To say he and Lampard have similar backgrounds is absolutely ridiculous. Wagner's a very very experienced coach. Lampard was a cracking player at an elite club but no way has he picked up the same level of coaching nous as Wagner. Wagner was also supported by a dedicated Sporting Director who identified undervalued targets at German clubs. Lampard doesn't have this in place and will be hard pressed to find players on loan as good as he had this year. Jones has been a coach for a long time too, I don't get why people take that out of the equation when considering someone's experience. He also was at Luton for a few years, reversing their downturn and initiating a "successful new process" they got consistently better every year he was there. We tried the richest owner in the Championship angle last year and have been money driven recruitment wise for around 4 years....and it's fallen completely on its arse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 11:07:45 GMT
I think you underestimate what knowledge comes from being involved in an elite club. Farke would have learnt a hell of a lot about structure and process and of course knowledge of the european market with significant contacts. I am not surprised he has succeeded just like Wagner did at Huddersfield similar backgrounds of course. I wouldn't understimate Lampards knowledge of coaching gained over many years at an elite club. Jones of course has knowledge of Luton Town and league 2 and half a season in league 1 in his locker. He is vastly inexperienced and has limited knowledge of implementing a successful new process. I genuinely hope he succeeds as he has a lot of attributes and is driven. Alas i think it may take a good few years before he gets us anywhere near promotion. Meanwhile with the rumoured signings he wants he seems to me to be trying to turn us into Luton Town. Many on here will be happy with that but for me a 10 yr legacy of premier league and the richest owners in the Championship we really should be aiming higher and bringing in people with some serious knowledge and experience gained from being in an elite club. How many elite players have we seen crash and burn as managers though? Absolutely loads? It's great having the experience but if you're unable to absorb or communicate or parlay that it counts for nothing. What you seem to be saying is that there is no scope for an inexperienced manager from the lower leagues to do well or climb the ladder. I'm not having that at all, it's nonsense. Yeah, Jones is inexperienced. Yeah, it may take a while. I'm prepared for that if it means we create something new and interesting and blows away the cobwebs and I think the board were too. The snobbery about the lower leagues is sad and I don't know what basis you have for saying he's 'trying to turn us into Luton' as a perjorative? If he 'turns us into' a free scoring, energetic promotion juggernaut then that's a...good...thing, no? Also as a player, he took himself off to Spain for a few years, became fluent in the language and by his own admission immersed himself into the tactics of that particular league. That to me shows he's more than just your average lower league manager that's had a purple patch, it suggests he has a bit more about him. Ultimately time will tell, but we certainly need to give the bloke chance to build his own identity......
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 11:12:06 GMT
How many elite players have we seen crash and burn as managers though? Absolutely loads? It's great having the experience but if you're unable to absorb or communicate or parlay that it counts for nothing. What you seem to be saying is that there is no scope for an inexperienced manager from the lower leagues to do well or climb the ladder. I'm not having that at all, it's nonsense. Yeah, Jones is inexperienced. Yeah, it may take a while. I'm prepared for that if it means we create something new and interesting and blows away the cobwebs and I think the board were too. The snobbery about the lower leagues is sad and I don't know what basis you have for saying he's 'trying to turn us into Luton' as a perjorative? If he 'turns us into' a free scoring, energetic promotion juggernaut then that's a...good...thing, no? Also as a player, he took himself off to Spain for a few years, became fluent in the language and by his own admission immersed himself into the tactics of that particular league. That to me shows he's more than just your average lower league manager that's had a purple patch, it suggests he has a bit more about him. Ultimately time will tell, but we certainly need to give the bloke chance to build his own identity...... Exactly this, people are acting like he's been here for a long long time. He's had one window.
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Post by scfc75 on Jun 6, 2019 11:19:50 GMT
I think you underestimate what knowledge comes from being involved in an elite club. Farke would have learnt a hell of a lot about structure and process and of course knowledge of the european market with significant contacts. I am not surprised he has succeeded just like Wagner did at Huddersfield similar backgrounds of course. I wouldn't understimate Lampards knowledge of coaching gained over many years at an elite club. Jones of course has knowledge of Luton Town and league 2 and half a season in league 1 in his locker. He is vastly inexperienced and has limited knowledge of implementing a successful new process. I genuinely hope he succeeds as he has a lot of attributes and is driven. Alas i think it may take a good few years before he gets us anywhere near promotion. Meanwhile with the rumoured signings he wants he seems to me to be trying to turn us into Luton Town. Many on here will be happy with that but for me a 10 yr legacy of premier league and the richest owners in the Championship we really should be aiming higher and bringing in people with some serious knowledge and experience gained from being in an elite club. How many elite players have we seen crash and burn as managers though? Absolutely loads? It's great having the experience but if you're unable to absorb or communicate or parlay that it counts for nothing. What you seem to be saying is that there is no scope for an inexperienced manager from the lower leagues to do well or climb the ladder. I'm not having that at all, it's nonsense. Yeah, Jones is inexperienced. Yeah, it may take a while. I'm prepared for that if it means we create something new and interesting and blows away the cobwebs and I think the board were too. The snobbery about the lower leagues is sad and I don't know what basis you have for saying he's 'trying to turn us into Luton' as a perjorative? If he 'turns us into' a free scoring, energetic promotion juggernaut then that's a...good...thing, no? Tony Adams, Paul Scholes and Gary Neville are three recent examples that spring to mind. There are a lot more. Played at the top level, worked under some of the best coaches around. Neville even made a good pundit. They all lacked the ‘secret sauce’ that makes a good manager and I think it in part boils down to personality, and the ability to manage individuals. The best tactician in the world will fail if he can’t get the players on side and brought into what he’s trying to teach them. Imagine trying to man manage 20 odd millionaires, all with their own ego’s, problems and demands. Look at Mourinho’s last season at Chelsea. Same players downed tools because they no longer respected the manager, regardless of his ability as a coach.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 6, 2019 14:41:35 GMT
Lets stop kidding ourselves the club has been in a unstoppable downward spiral for the last three and a half years and the inexperienced (at top level) Mr Jones is unlikely to be able to reverse that cycle on a limited budget. We are paying the price for our horrendous player recruitment which brought in the likes of Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, Wolscheid and Joselu for countless millions and we are now unashamedly shopping for B List Championship journeymen and ageing PL rejects. Such players may help to consolidate our position in the Championship but they wont get us promoted and if they did they would need replacing at prohibitive expense. When I first started supporting the team over 60 years ago we were a mediocre second tier club with modest ambitions. I fear that we are likely to remain at a similar level for the foreseeable future. <chanting >Where were you, where were you, where were you in the Seventies? Golden years, my arse! Gone forever, my arse! Mediocre second tier club, hmmm ...... one trophy in >150 years makes it hard to argue?
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Post by dreamtheater on Jun 6, 2019 14:53:57 GMT
Nostalgia driven waffle, you can't predict anything in football with near perfect accuracy it's one of the main reasons we love the game. "B-list" Championship players started the "Golden Years" and have got many a side promoted in the past decade, what's more important is to have a tactical system in place that informs the recruitment. I'm far more comfortable signing players that are less well known that might help us tactically than shoe-horning a player in there because of his name. Any side we got promoted with would need expensive additions because of the gulf in quality. I'd much rather look at 2008-2018 as an era passed, and a new one potentially starting than forver torturing myself by saying "Oh it's all over now, we'll never get back". For once, we've actually come down better as a whole than at any other point in our history. Just compare the club infrastructure from 2008 to now. Cant predict anything in football with any accuracy ? WELL! I confidently predict Manchester city will win a lot more things over the next 5 -10 years or so. Y'see .success is about wealth, good ownership and good sometimes ruthless management without sentiment. We completely fucked up on at least two of those components leading to loss of the third and perhaps most crucial i.e the wealth.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 15:02:08 GMT
Nostalgia driven waffle, you can't predict anything in football with near perfect accuracy it's one of the main reasons we love the game. "B-list" Championship players started the "Golden Years" and have got many a side promoted in the past decade, what's more important is to have a tactical system in place that informs the recruitment. I'm far more comfortable signing players that are less well known that might help us tactically than shoe-horning a player in there because of his name. Any side we got promoted with would need expensive additions because of the gulf in quality. I'd much rather look at 2008-2018 as an era passed, and a new one potentially starting than forver torturing myself by saying "Oh it's all over now, we'll never get back". For once, we've actually come down better as a whole than at any other point in our history. Just compare the club infrastructure from 2008 to now. Cant predict anything in football with any accuracy ? WELL! I confidently predict Manchester city will win a lot more things over the next 5 -10 years or so. Y'see .success is about wealth, good ownership and good sometimes ruthless management without sentiment. We completely fucked up on at least two of those components leading to loss of the third and perhaps most crucial i.e the wealth. Yeah so that's not near perfect accuracy is it? If you actually bothered to read the post.
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Post by dreamtheater on Jun 6, 2019 15:04:32 GMT
Look at what man citeh have done. Richest owners invest in best ground and surrounding facilities the envy of the entire premier league (have any of you driven around north Manchester recently?) then, go get the best most expensive football manager on the planet. Allow him to purchase the best football players money can buy, pay them the highest wages and yet through all this be absolutely focussed and single minded and so then .HOW CAN YOU FAIL? -----ps our approach and whole business model for a once 29th richest football club in the world is now pygmy like in comparison.
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Post by Davef on Jun 6, 2019 15:05:49 GMT
Look at what man citeh have done. Richest owners invest in best ground and surrounding facilities the envy of the entire premier league (have any of you driven around north Manchester recently?) then, go get the best most expensive football manager on the planet. Allow him to purchase the best football players money can buy, pay thenm the highest wages and yet through all tjis be absolutely focussed and single minded and so then .HOW CAN YOU FAIL? -----ps our approach and whole business model for a once 29th richest football club in the world is now pygmy like in comparison. Jesus wept.
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Post by dreamtheater on Jun 6, 2019 15:06:22 GMT
Hide behind you approximations .....I happen to think the game is becoming more predictable than ever before. And Dave. we were competing on the same pitch as these buggers until recently..you can say 'jesus wept' but. Is there a single word there that isnt true?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 15:08:41 GMT
Look at what man citeh have done. Richest owners invest in best ground and surrounding facilities the envy of the entire premier league (have any of you driven around north Manchester recently?) then, go get the best most expensive football manager on the planet. Allow him to purchase the best football players money can buy, pay them the highest wages and yet through all this be absolutely focussed and single minded and so then .HOW CAN YOU FAIL? -----ps our approach and whole business model for a once 29th richest football club in the world is now pygmy like in comparison. Are you suggesting we should be competing with Manchester City?
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Post by dreamtheater on Jun 6, 2019 15:13:12 GMT
I am certainly suggesting, if not for sheer incompetence that unfolded before our very eyes, we should at least be in the same bloody league as them 😑😑😑😑😑😑 and I still remember mame diouf going full length against them ..wasnt long ago was it ?
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