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Post by scfc75 on Jun 5, 2019 15:48:05 GMT
Scfc Bollocks utter bollocks. the ground never looked finished and it got so bad, our own people could hardly buy tickets on matchday anymore and, it was finally done years too late. (By the way leaving/delaying construction jobs usually means, they cost more). Oh I get that. But you’re quoting that they should run it as a business, and from a business perspective the economics don’t stack up. After the expansion our average gate hardly moved. We would have additional running costs and wouldn’t make that much more (if anything) in advertising and other matchday revenue. Off topic I know but it was a vanity project, not a business one. You can’t ask them to run the club as a business then demand an expensive project that won’t show a return for many years, if ever.
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Post by dreamtheater on Jun 5, 2019 15:58:20 GMT
To my eyes, for a premier league club branded and seen as a worlwide brand and, demonstrating occupancies above 96%, year on year from when we were promoted, shoving some seats in one corner to at least make the ground look finished on worlwide networked TV was, the nearest thing to a 'no brainer' I could possibly imagine.
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Post by dreamtheater on Jun 5, 2019 16:06:24 GMT
In short the fuckers running that club behind the scenes right now would dither about whether to order another fucking tray of sausage rolls on matchday whilst, spectacularly condoning the fucking up of transfer deal after transfer deal . Again not good enough.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 5, 2019 16:49:54 GMT
Lets stop kidding ourselves the club has been in a unstoppable downward spiral for the last three and a half years and the inexperienced (at top level) Mr Jones is unlikely to be able to reverse that cycle on a limited budget. We are paying the price for our horrendous player recruitment which brought in the likes of Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, Wolscheid and Joselu for countless millions and we are now unashamedly shopping for B List Championship journeymen and ageing PL rejects. Such players may help to consolidate our position in the Championship but they wont get us promoted and if they did they would need replacing at prohibitive expense. When I first started supporting the team over 60 years ago we were a mediocre second tier club with modest ambitions. I fear that we are likely to remain at a similar level for the foreseeable future. 60 years ago? Lucky you, we were about to appoint Tony Waddington. For this club and all other clubs apart from the top 6 success comes and goes in cycles
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 5, 2019 17:02:43 GMT
I agree about the downward spiral, the need to rebuild and the fact that the team we rebuild will by necessity be a Championship quality side nowhere near the quality we had while we were in the Premiership - in fact it would help if more fans recognised this rather than live under the delusion that we are still a Premiership side just waiting to bounce back.
However I disagree it's gone forever or that it's beyond the realms of possibility that Jones might be the man to get us back up. It's going to be hard work to get back there and we are going to have to do it by being the best Championship quality side in the Championship - not by being a Premiership quality side who just happen to be in the Championship.
As a reaction to the situation you can go for pessimism, optimism or delusion. I'm going for optimism - and I'm really looking forward to see how next season pans out. However if we don't get promoted next year I don't see it as the end of the world or proof of permanent mediocrity. I just want to see evidence that we have turned the corner and are capable of becoming genuine promotion candidates in the next couple of seasons.
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Post by danceswithclams on Jun 5, 2019 17:29:28 GMT
Nope but, I know how multi million pound organisations are supposed to work And, the one in question seems to happily reward failure after failure theres guys there laughing at the supporters seemingly capable of fucking abzolutely anything up with no consequence .The chief exec pissed on his chips with me years ago over the stadium extension. Then on filf and off .it just got worse. not good enough - sorry. But you can’t seem to work out how to use the quote function. Or string a coherent sentence together.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Jun 5, 2019 17:44:00 GMT
When we last went down, 33 years ago or therabout, I really thought we'd be back up after a couple of years at most, I even bought a badge "SCFC We will return"! 23 years later we were promoted so the badge was right!! This time I don't want to think about 23 years and to be honest am not really bothered as I doubt I'll be around then! What league we're in doesn't define what Stoke are to me. I watched little of the Prem last year and nothing 'live' on TV. If it wasn't for Stoke I doubt I'd watch much football and I used to watch it all religiously! Saying that am watching France v Brazil at the Toulon Tournament.
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 5, 2019 17:57:22 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault.
I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will).
I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter.
It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 5, 2019 18:20:26 GMT
2008-2017 was the silver years for me; the golden years were the first half of the 70s, when we went toe-to-toe with the top clubs, played entertaining football, and had our best achievements.
You are not wrong to identify the dreadful signings under Hughes last couple of seasons as the trigger of our demise, but I feel the Rowett signings will prove to be equally damaging in preventing our revival.
I don't count Etebo as a Rowett signing.
I think Jones is hamstrung with his signings until virtually all the above signings are off the books. So we have to be very patient.
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Post by numberounominion on Jun 5, 2019 19:25:44 GMT
The golden years were the Tony Waddington years and the lou macari years for me
To me, the way we play is more important than the league we play in
I want to see positive body language, positive play and a ' we can beat this lot ' attitude from the players from the first minute to the last
We got that with waddo and lou in charge and it would be great to see it again.
That's how klopp, sends Liverpool out to play, so it's not as if, it's an outdated Way of playing.
Would be great to see us play that way again.
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Post by Linx on Jun 5, 2019 19:46:56 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline....It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. And the longer it takes for us to get our act together, the more strident the siren calls from The Capped One will become, assuming that he would still be available, such that PC and Co. will not be able to resist.
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Post by Absolution on Jun 5, 2019 19:48:44 GMT
When we last went down, 33 years ago or therabout, I really thought we'd be back up after a couple of years at most, I even bought a badge "SCFC We will return"! 23 years later we were promoted so the badge was right!! This time I don't want to think about 23 years and to be honest am not really bothered as I doubt I'll be around then! What league we're in doesn't define what Stoke are to me. I watched little of the Prem last year and nothing 'live' on TV. If it wasn't for Stoke I doubt I'd watch much football and I used to watch it all religiously! Saying that am watching France v Brazil at the Toulon Tournament. Same here. Apart from the badge and the Toulon Tournament.
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Post by cdlstoke on Jun 5, 2019 19:50:10 GMT
Scfc Bollocks utter bollocks. the ground never looked finished and it got so bad, our own people could hardly buy tickets on matchday anymore and, it was finally done years too late. (By the way leaving/delaying construction jobs usually means, they cost more). Oh I get that. But you’re quoting that they should run it as a business, and from a business perspective the economics don’t stack up. After the expansion our average gate hardly moved. We would have additional running costs and wouldn’t make that much more (if anything) in advertising and other matchday revenue. Off topic I know but it was a vanity project, not a business one. You can’t ask them to run the club as a business then demand an expensive project that won’t show a return for many years, if ever. Average gate 2015-16 27534 / 2016-17 27433/ 2017-18 29280 So there was a significant increase in gates.👍
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 5, 2019 19:51:27 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline....It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. And the longer it takes for us to get our act together, the more strident the siren calls from The Capped One will become, assuming that he would still be available, such that PC and Co. will not be able to resist. That’s a very plausible scenario!
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Post by zerps on Jun 5, 2019 19:53:24 GMT
You can’t go back
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Post by Goonie on Jun 5, 2019 20:02:17 GMT
We've gone from Golden Years to Golden Showers 😁🤬😡😫
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Post by Goonie on Jun 5, 2019 20:03:39 GMT
Oh I get that. But you’re quoting that they should run it as a business, and from a business perspective the economics don’t stack up. After the expansion our average gate hardly moved. We would have additional running costs and wouldn’t make that much more (if anything) in advertising and other matchday revenue. Off topic I know but it was a vanity project, not a business one. You can’t ask them to run the club as a business then demand an expensive project that won’t show a return for many years, if ever. Average gate 2015-16 27534 / 2016-17 27433/ 2017-18 29280 So there was a significant increase in gates.👍 Filled a corner in....finally! 👍😁
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 5, 2019 20:04:38 GMT
2016-2018 were golden years?
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Post by scfc75 on Jun 5, 2019 20:39:46 GMT
Oh I get that. But you’re quoting that they should run it as a business, and from a business perspective the economics don’t stack up. After the expansion our average gate hardly moved. We would have additional running costs and wouldn’t make that much more (if anything) in advertising and other matchday revenue. Off topic I know but it was a vanity project, not a business one. You can’t ask them to run the club as a business then demand an expensive project that won’t show a return for many years, if ever. Average gate 2015-16 27534 / 2016-17 27433/ 2017-18 29280 So there was a significant increase in gates.👍 Fair enough.... but gate receipts only rose by £540k before costs. I don’t know the extra running costs but if you assume the net benefit is £400k a season, and the expansion cost was £3m, it would take 8 further seasons in the top flight to just break even. That’s without factoring in maintenance costs etc.
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Post by rawli on Jun 5, 2019 20:54:17 GMT
Average gate 2015-16 27534 / 2016-17 27433/ 2017-18 29280 So there was a significant increase in gates.👍 Fair enough.... but gate receipts only rose by £540k before costs. I don’t know the extra running costs but if you assume the net benefit is £400k a season, and the expansion cost was £3m, it would take 8 further seasons in the top flight to just break even. That’s without factoring in maintenance costs etc. Stops one of the drafts though.
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Post by cdlstoke on Jun 5, 2019 21:54:02 GMT
Average gate 2015-16 27534 / 2016-17 27433/ 2017-18 29280 So there was a significant increase in gates.👍 Fair enough.... but gate receipts only rose by £540k before costs. I don’t know the extra running costs but if you assume the net benefit is £400k a season, and the expansion cost was £3m, it would take 8 further seasons in the top flight to just break even. That’s without factoring in maintenance costs etc. Unfortunately we needed stay in the premier league to make it pay. I’m hoping for a return, but not sure if Jones will do it. He’s starting worry me with to much talk and not enough walking as they say.🤔 we will soon find out.😬
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 5, 2019 22:23:55 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault. I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will). I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter. It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. I don’t understand why Edwards in particular would struggle with the diamond? I don’t agree that Verlinden or Vokes will either?
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 5, 2019 23:11:45 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault. I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will). I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter. It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. I don’t understand why Edwards in particular would struggle with the diamond? I don’t agree that Verlinden or Vokes will either? I recall we debated this before and (from memory) our difference of opinion stemmed from the perceived ease or difficulty we saw in changing system. With a target man like Vokes, I see us relying on fullbacks to create from crosses. Edwards isn’t bad, but from what I’ve seen, hasn’t the speed or exceptional crossing ability to be a prolific supply line. (Similarly I see Verlinden as a promising wide player but without the physicality to dominate a central midfield). Both are good players. Previously if I recall correctly, you thought it less of a deal than me to adapt. (?). More fundamentally, why does NJ want to change system? Underlying my question is the belief that we have some good championship players in Etebo, Clucas, Ince, Woods, Voles, Verlinden (and possibly Afobe even) - and 3 out of 4 of a good defence (assuming Pieters is gone) - so why not use a system that best suits these, based on where these players have played their best most often; and building on the time these players have spent together already and use transfer resources to build on this base? (Aka add pace on the left, energy when Allen leaves and another creative player). So it’s possible, of course, Edwards and Verlinden excel, but I don’t understand the motivation or onus to take the risk.
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Post by potterpaul on Jun 6, 2019 3:32:36 GMT
I can never figure out why Joselu gets listed with the rest of the Bash Street Kids, when he wasn't here that long, he wasn't a drain on resources, and we sold him for a profit as far as I am aware. He wasn't great but wasn't a disaster either, we just didn't use him much.
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Post by madnellie on Jun 6, 2019 3:48:57 GMT
2016-2018 were golden years? The pyrite years.
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Post by kelw on Jun 6, 2019 6:41:04 GMT
The golden years were the Tony Waddington years and the lou macari years for me To me, the way we play is more important than the league we play in I want to see positive body language, positive play and a ' we can beat this lot ' attitude from the players from the first minute to the last We got that with waddo and lou in charge and it would be great to see it again. That's how klopp, sends Liverpool out to play, so it's not as if, it's an outdated Way of playing. Would be great to see us play that way again. Beating Mansfield over outplaying the Man Citys Utds and Spurs etc?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 6, 2019 7:09:29 GMT
I don’t understand why Edwards in particular would struggle with the diamond? I don’t agree that Verlinden or Vokes will either? I recall we debated this before and (from memory) our difference of opinion stemmed from the perceived ease or difficulty we saw in changing system. With a target man like Vokes, I see us relying on fullbacks to create from crosses. Edwards isn’t bad, but from what I’ve seen, hasn’t the speed or exceptional crossing ability to be a prolific supply line. (Similarly I see Verlinden as a promising wide player but without the physicality to dominate a central midfield). Both are good players. Previously if I recall correctly, you thought it less of a deal than me to adapt. (?). More fundamentally, why does NJ want to change system? Underlying my question is the belief that we have some good championship players in Etebo, Clucas, Ince, Woods, Voles, Verlinden (and possibly Afobe even) - and 3 out of 4 of a good defence (assuming Pieters is gone) - so why not use a system that best suits these, based on where these players have played their best most often; and building on the time these players have spent together already and use transfer resources to build on this base? (Aka add pace on the left, energy when Allen leaves and another creative player). So it’s possible, of course, Edwards and Verlinden excel, but I don’t understand the motivation or onus to take the risk. It's not so much that as I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of Edwards, who is both quick and a good crosser. Verlinden wouldn't need to physically dominate a central midfield, he'd be the number 10 or the second striker. He'll need to adapt but his skill set suggests he can and his performance in that role against Norwich was promising. Vokes isn't just going to be someone to get crosses in to, he's the focal point who's there to win the aerial duels and hold the ball up and drag defenders away to create space. He's done that very well as part of a strike partnership throughout his career. Most managers have a preferred way of playing that they seek to implement when they arrive. They stick with what's worked for them, rightly or wrongly. I personally don't think there is a system that the current squad fits easily. Maybe you could just about make a case for 3-5-2 with McClean at LWB, or 4-3-3 with Clucas at LB, but even then it's not perfect and you're relying on square pegs and at least one no mark in midfield. I'd actually rather see us rip it up and start again and build something more exciting and fresher than carry on with something mouldy and moribund, even if it takes us longer to do that.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 7:18:30 GMT
Nostalgia driven waffle, you can't predict anything in football with near perfect accuracy it's one of the main reasons we love the game.
"B-list" Championship players started the "Golden Years" and have got many a side promoted in the past decade, what's more important is to have a tactical system in place that informs the recruitment. I'm far more comfortable signing players that are less well known that might help us tactically than shoe-horning a player in there because of his name. Any side we got promoted with would need expensive additions because of the gulf in quality.
I'd much rather look at 2008-2018 as an era passed, and a new one potentially starting than forver torturing myself by saying "Oh it's all over now, we'll never get back". For once, we've actually come down better as a whole than at any other point in our history. Just compare the club infrastructure from 2008 to now.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 6, 2019 7:22:18 GMT
Agree, except that NJ is part of the decline. Chipper lower league PE teacher type who has clearly read many a good motivational sports science book... perfect for cutting our cloth and getting the wage bill down by 50percent. Alas, the root cause at Stoke - lack of expertise in football innovation - is not addressed, We just fall further behind the skill sets being employed at Norwich, Derby, Villa, Leeds et al. Not NJs fault. I wasn’t expecting a repeat of last summer - despite the lack of barriers to spending cited by Jones - having got used to the chasm between statement and action over the past 6 months - but thus far I’m seeing all the signs of the construction of a team built to battle in the middle of the table. (And I hold my breadth to see whether it will). I’m left wondering what NJ is actually trying to do. I see, like many, our strengths, weaknesses and the imminent departures. We are well organised, good defence, lack forward mobility and have a good target man but no source of reliable delivery. We need youth, pace, mobility and delivery quality. Why not start from there? The 4132 or 4231 is well suited to sevral of the players that we’d want to stay, while the diamond isn’t - Ince, verlinden, Vokes, Edwards will all perform in the former and struggle in the latter. It can all change over summer, but am predicting jones gone with his team impotent and confused by winter. Appointing Nathan Jones was innovative, they could have gone for any of the tried and tested names. Norwich were having the exact same discussion about Farke's tactics last year, when all they had was a surfeit of Bundesliga 2 players on the books.
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Post by tony1234 on Jun 6, 2019 8:06:19 GMT
I recall we debated this before and (from memory) our difference of opinion stemmed from the perceived ease or difficulty we saw in changing system. With a target man like Vokes, I see us relying on fullbacks to create from crosses. Edwards isn’t bad, but from what I’ve seen, hasn’t the speed or exceptional crossing ability to be a prolific supply line. (Similarly I see Verlinden as a promising wide player but without the physicality to dominate a central midfield). Both are good players. Previously if I recall correctly, you thought it less of a deal than me to adapt. (?). More fundamentally, why does NJ want to change system? Underlying my question is the belief that we have some good championship players in Etebo, Clucas, Ince, Woods, Voles, Verlinden (and possibly Afobe even) - and 3 out of 4 of a good defence (assuming Pieters is gone) - so why not use a system that best suits these, based on where these players have played their best most often; and building on the time these players have spent together already and use transfer resources to build on this base? (Aka add pace on the left, energy when Allen leaves and another creative player). So it’s possible, of course, Edwards and Verlinden excel, but I don’t understand the motivation or onus to take the risk. It's not so much that as I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of Edwards, who is both quick and a good crosser. Verlinden wouldn't need to physically dominate a central midfield, he'd be the number 10 or the second striker. He'll need to adapt but his skill set suggests he can and his performance in that role against Norwich was promising. Vokes isn't just going to be someone to get crosses in to, he's the focal point who's there to win the aerial duels and hold the ball up and drag defenders away to create space. He's done that very well as part of a strike partnership throughout his career. Most managers have a preferred way of playing that they seek to implement when they arrive. They stick with what's worked for them, rightly or wrongly. I personally don't think there is a system that the current squad fits easily. Maybe you could just about make a case for 3-5-2 with McClean at LWB, or 4-3-3 with Clucas at LB, but even then it's not perfect and you're relying on square pegs and at least one no mark in midfield. I'd actually rather see us rip it up and start again and build something more exciting and fresher than carry on with something mouldy and moribund, even if it takes us longer to do that. ...which to me represents let’s say “high optimism” re Verlinden and Edwards. (As well as Vokes getting 20 goals if the team play through the middle etc). So we’ve been there in our respective views about adaptability. But on your last point - even if we accept your perspective that he actually is creating something better, more exciting, fresher, which we don’t have any evidence for yet, can you see Jones given time?
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