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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 11:27:54 GMT
If, like you say, they’ve been at the top of the championship performers, theatrically they should be easy to move on. Allen is the only one who could get better than us, but given his age and how the team is made to accommodate him, he should also be moved on to generate money and free up wages too. It’s a concern that only Butland has been linked out, yet last season on paper, we were supposed to be the best team in the league. Its the prices we've paid and the wages we've put them on though that is causing the barrier: PL total wages = 2.9bn, Champ total wages = about 800m - so that suggests Champs wages are probably 20-25% PL wages. If we stick the buggers on wages that are somewhere in the middle, we've priced most Championship teams from ever taking them back... The few that can afford them would potentially be looking for better deals (not necessarily better players), where they can make a future profit themselves. Why pay for Ince when Callum Robinson is probably on a third of his wage, if that, and you could get 2x Callum Robinsons? Or using the loan system. Meanwhile the PL clubs are constantly aspiring to get better from a global market. Also - to note - We are really coming into the crux of the window now though, and there is always a surge near Deadline day... so still time It comes back to our failed recruitment / scouting / negotiating team. Pay high and give big contracts on players that if they fail you’re stuck with.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jul 7, 2019 11:52:32 GMT
Allen has missed about 4 games in his 3 seasons including playing virtually every minute last year. Oddly a complaint for the last 3 years is that the midfield doesn’t look balanced. Allen is a jack of all trades who plays a number of roles to an ok standard but I’d much rather have 3 distinct specialists than shunting him around to do a job. That applies to CAM where his early good start masked the fact there were better players for the role, his cdm role where I think someone with more positional strength would make us much better or where he plays in the middle 2, where his passing ability or lack of it is highlighted. A jack of all trades and a master of none. That doesn’t necessarily mean “he’s shit” but that doesn’t mean he isn’t part of the problem either. Especially being as though we’ve steadily declined for each of those 3 years, in combination with all the other factors we discuss.
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 7, 2019 17:18:57 GMT
Its the prices we've paid and the wages we've put them on though that is causing the barrier: PL total wages = 2.9bn, Champ total wages = about 800m - so that suggests Champs wages are probably 20-25% PL wages. If we stick the buggers on wages that are somewhere in the middle, we've priced most Championship teams from ever taking them back... The few that can afford them would potentially be looking for better deals (not necessarily better players), where they can make a future profit themselves. Why pay for Ince when Callum Robinson is probably on a third of his wage, if that, and you could get 2x Callum Robinsons? Or using the loan system. Meanwhile the PL clubs are constantly aspiring to get better from a global market. Also - to note - We are really coming into the crux of the window now though, and there is always a surge near Deadline day... so still time It comes back to our failed recruitment / scouting / negotiating team. Pay high and give big contracts on players that if they fail you’re stuck with. Yes, there is always a risk, but the size of the risk is down to a) the size of the investment and b) how confident you are in your recruitment process. I'm not sure why we ever thought we could spend 10m+ and get it right given the last few years record! Argubaly would have been better we'd spent on a clutch of smaller investments who'd done well in the Champs, until we got our aim right again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 17:52:32 GMT
It comes back to our failed recruitment / scouting / negotiating team. Pay high and give big contracts on players that if they fail you’re stuck with. Yes, there is always a risk, but the size of the risk is down to a) the size of the investment and b) how confident you are in your recruitment process. I'm not sure why we ever thought we could spend 10m+ and get it right given the last few years record! Argubaly would have been better we'd spent on a clutch of smaller investments who'd done well in the Champs, until we got our aim right again. Stevie Wonder would have a better scouting record than our scouts.
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Post by baystokie on Jul 7, 2019 18:04:07 GMT
Yes, there is always a risk, but the size of the risk is down to a) the size of the investment and b) how confident you are in your recruitment process. I'm not sure why we ever thought we could spend 10m+ and get it right given the last few years record! Argubaly would have been better we'd spent on a clutch of smaller investments who'd done well in the Champs, until we got our aim right again. Stevie Wonder would have a better scouting record than our scouts. Stevie Wonder is probably more perceptive than many folks on this forum
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 10, 2019 15:22:03 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 15:24:14 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford What in the fuck, they signed Jensen!? Honestly they're going to be a nightmare to play against this season, some cracking signings being made there.
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Post by bhp on Jul 10, 2019 16:03:12 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford What in the fuck, they signed Jensen!? Honestly they're going to be a nightmare to play against this season, some cracking signings being made there. Not to mention the players they already have! Although looks like Konsa & Maupay will be leaving. Bristol City made some solid signings also
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Jul 10, 2019 16:17:08 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford Nice Umbro kit Brentford have this season!!! That'd look nice for us with a white collar and cuffs!!! 👍🏼 Plus, if we had Umbro making our kits, we could have those retro "Ricoh" tops in the club shop......but with diamonds down the sleeves!!! 👍🏼 Win, win with Umbro!!! 👍🏼
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Post by GoBoks on Jul 10, 2019 17:27:56 GMT
Stevie Wonder would have a better scouting record than our scouts. Stevie Wonder is probably more perceptive than many folks on this forum Most of our fans can out-wonder Stevie Wonder!
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Post by bertieb on Jul 10, 2019 19:27:24 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford Nice Umbro kit Brentford have this season!!! That'd look nice for us with a white collar and cuffs!!! 👍🏼 Plus, if we had Umbro making our kits, we could have those retro "Ricoh" tops in the club shop......but with diamonds down the sleeves!!! 👍🏼 Win, win with Umbro!!! 👍🏼 Best shirt ever with the umbro diamonds down the sleeve.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 10, 2019 19:51:27 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford I've had them at 16/1 each way for promotion. I thought they were only a couple away from a push last year. Possibly one of, if not the best team we played over two matches last season.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 10, 2019 19:57:05 GMT
The jizzfest over Brentford therefore means they'll finish below us next season.
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Post by wearepremierleague on Jul 10, 2019 20:03:48 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford I've had them at 16/1 each way for promotion. I thought they were only a couple away from a push last year. Possibly one of, if not the best team we played over two matches last season. They absolutely spanked us in both games. How we come out of the first game with a draw I have no idea
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Post by thevoid on Jul 10, 2019 20:37:44 GMT
Well done Mr Coates. Your arrogance, fiddling while Rome burnt and short-sightedness have seen us overtaken by Bournemouth and being outspent by Brentford 👏
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 20:42:29 GMT
Well done Mr Coates. Your arrogance, fiddling while Rome burnt and short-sightedness have seen us overtaken by Bournemouth and being outspent by Brentford 👏 We outspent Brentford last season by almost tenfold. The biggest criticism you can level at the family is their choice of manager who spent that money last summer, and their choice of people who continue to drive the process. For example, whilst we were chucking 6M at James McClean, they were buying Said Benrahma for 1.75M. Whilst we were loaning Ashley Williams for a fortune, they were buying Konsa for less than 3M (both together less than McClean!). Whilst McClean is worth less than what we paid and Williams no longer here, Brentford are about to make an absolute fortune on both those players.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 10, 2019 21:03:42 GMT
Well done Mr Coates. Your arrogance, fiddling while Rome burnt and short-sightedness have seen us overtaken by Bournemouth and being outspent by Brentford 👏 We outspent Brentford last season by almost tenfold. The biggest criticism you can level at the family is their choice of manager who spent that money last summer, and their choice of people who continue to drive the process. For example, whilst we were chucking 6M at James McClean, they were buying Said Benrahma for 1.75M. Whilst we were loaning Ashley Williams for a fortune, they were buying Konsa for less than 3M (both together less than McClean!). Whilst McClean is worth less than what we paid and Williams no longer here, Brentford are about to make an absolute fortune on both those players. And good luck to them, they've got a 'model' and it's working for them, despite repeatedly having to sell their key players. But let's say it as it is, we're in this position because PC rested on his laurels, saw teams like Burnley, Huddersfield, Watford, Bournemouth and Brighton coming up and assumed we'd be safe because these clubs would fill the relegation slots and we could trudge along replacing Arnie with the likes of Choupo-Moting and Jese. He allowed us to become complacent from a position of strength.
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Post by lordb on Jul 10, 2019 21:15:10 GMT
I've had them at 16/1 each way for promotion. I thought they were only a couple away from a push last year. Possibly one of, if not the best team we played over two matches last season. They absolutely spanked us in both games. How we come out of the first game with a draw I have no idea Brentford switched off for about twenty minutes in the home game which was when we scored. Might explain why they finished so low down the table? Easily best side we played last set for me but they must have had a big flaw.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 10, 2019 21:28:28 GMT
Possible Sawyers replacement in at Brentford What in the fuck, they signed Jensen!? Honestly they're going to be a nightmare to play against this season, some cracking signings being made there. Never heard of him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 21:53:46 GMT
What in the fuck, they signed Jensen!? Honestly they're going to be a nightmare to play against this season, some cracking signings being made there. Never heard of him. Highly rated young player, engine on him and a composed passer and all rounder. I'd have preferred him to Sawyers to be honest.
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Post by Afrojack on Jul 10, 2019 21:59:36 GMT
Highly rated young player, engine on him and a composed passer and all rounder. I'd have preferred him to Sawyers to be honest. Really? Only managed 6 appearances for Celta last season and prior to that only played in Norway
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 10, 2019 22:01:35 GMT
Highly rated young player, engine on him and a composed passer and all rounder. I'd have preferred him to Sawyers to be honest. Fair do's I do think our midfield is not too bad to be fair dependant on who leaves.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 22:03:57 GMT
Highly rated young player, engine on him and a composed passer and all rounder. I'd have preferred him to Sawyers to be honest. Really? Only managed 6 appearances for Celta last season and prior to that only played in Norway Yeah he's incredibly highly regarded, or certainly was when I last heard about him. Captained his side aged about 20 and won bags of awards. Aye, he's played pretty much all his football in Norway but that doesn't make him shite.
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Post by bertiestan on Jul 10, 2019 23:39:34 GMT
Really? Only managed 6 appearances for Celta last season and prior to that only played in Norway Yeah he's incredibly highly regarded, or certainly was when I last heard about him. Captained his side aged about 20 and won bags of awards. Aye, he's played pretty much all his football in Norway but that doesn't make him shite. Diouf was once a goal machine in Norway
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2019 23:41:51 GMT
Yeah he's incredibly highly regarded, or certainly was when I last heard about him. Captained his side aged about 20 and won bags of awards. Aye, he's played pretty much all his football in Norway but that doesn't make him shite. Diouf was once a goal machine in Norway Aye he was a goal machine in the German top league too. He wasn't a technically gifted box to box midfielder capable of being captain aged about 21 providing goals and assists and chipping in defensively too.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 10, 2019 23:46:08 GMT
The jizzfest over Brentford therefore means they'll finish below us next season. Jizzfests over another 17 teams will do it then!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 0:03:49 GMT
We outspent Brentford last season by almost tenfold. The biggest criticism you can level at the family is their choice of manager who spent that money last summer, and their choice of people who continue to drive the process. For example, whilst we were chucking 6M at James McClean, they were buying Said Benrahma for 1.75M. Whilst we were loaning Ashley Williams for a fortune, they were buying Konsa for less than 3M (both together less than McClean!). Whilst McClean is worth less than what we paid and Williams no longer here, Brentford are about to make an absolute fortune on both those players. And good luck to them, they've got a 'model' and it's working for them, despite repeatedly having to sell their key players. But let's say it as it is, we're in this position because PC rested on his laurels, saw teams like Burnley, Huddersfield, Watford, Bournemouth and Brighton coming up and assumed we'd be safe because these clubs would fill the relegation slots and we could trudge along replacing Arnie with the likes of Choupo-Moting and Jese. He allowed us to become complacent from a position of strength. I mean you've completely failed to address his point and countered your own initial point in the first place. It's not how much you spend, it's who and what you spend it on. Your initial point was that we aren't spending as much as them, yet they themselves demonstrate how much is spent is no indication of the quality you will receive.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 8:00:05 GMT
We outspent Brentford last season by almost tenfold. The biggest criticism you can level at the family is their choice of manager who spent that money last summer, and their choice of people who continue to drive the process. For example, whilst we were chucking 6M at James McClean, they were buying Said Benrahma for 1.75M. Whilst we were loaning Ashley Williams for a fortune, they were buying Konsa for less than 3M (both together less than McClean!). Whilst McClean is worth less than what we paid and Williams no longer here, Brentford are about to make an absolute fortune on both those players. And good luck to them, they've got a 'model' and it's working for them, despite repeatedly having to sell their key players. But let's say it as it is, we're in this position because PC rested on his laurels, saw teams like Burnley, Huddersfield, Watford, Bournemouth and Brighton coming up and assumed we'd be safe because these clubs would fill the relegation slots and we could trudge along replacing Arnie with the likes of Choupo-Moting and Jese. He allowed us to become complacent from a position of strength. That's the point a lot of people miss though. John Coates stated at the meet the supporters night they had that they have stood firm against selling our better players over many years, flying in the face of good business sense. If we had a model like Brentford then, bringing in good young players and developing them we had a board prepared to turn down offers and only ludicrous offers, at then PL level, that meant it could have been a very sustainable model, selling players at only very top dollar prices and keeping the core group of players ticking over. Hence my point, the real criticism is the choice of manager and the process, and not the financial input of the owners. They've spent good money very badly through two channels - first team manager and the process that aids recruitment. As we are now, we may have to go down the Brentford road very quickly if things go wrong at this level to try and get us back on a sound financial footing re. FFP.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 11, 2019 8:08:41 GMT
And good luck to them, they've got a 'model' and it's working for them, despite repeatedly having to sell their key players. But let's say it as it is, we're in this position because PC rested on his laurels, saw teams like Burnley, Huddersfield, Watford, Bournemouth and Brighton coming up and assumed we'd be safe because these clubs would fill the relegation slots and we could trudge along replacing Arnie with the likes of Choupo-Moting and Jese. He allowed us to become complacent from a position of strength. That's the point a lot of people miss though. John Coates stated at the meet the supporters night they had that they have stood firm against selling our better players over many years, flying in the face of good business sense. If we had a model like Brentford then, bringing in good young players and developing them we had a board prepared to turn down offers and only ludicrous offers, at then PL level, that meant it could have been a very sustainable model, selling players at only very top dollar prices and keeping the core group of players ticking over. Hence my point, the real criticism is the choice of manager and the process, and not the financial input of the owners. They've spent good money very badly through two channels - first team manager and the process that aids recruitment. As we are now, we may have to go down the Brentford road very quickly if things go wrong at this level to try and get us back on a sound financial footing re. FFP. Beyond that, we never seem to have a coherent 'model' the way a Brentford or a Norwich do. We don't do 'vision'.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 11, 2019 9:32:27 GMT
I'm hoping that Jones has been brought in to establish that model. As far as I'm concerned making sure that the u23s will be playing the same diamond system as the first team is the first step in the right direction. It seemed crazy to me not to have this already in place if we wanted to bring through our own young players.
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