Negativity will derail us

[Trouserdog]

I'm not going to pretend that the last few years have been anything but awful, but when it comes to discussing Stoke, I'm already getting sick of stating the case for the bleeding obvious.

For the first time in years we have a manager at the helm who has a long-term plan, a tactical vision and a recent success on which to base his Stoke blueprint. However, never before has a new manager been burdened with such a dreadfully imbalanced and unmotivated squad of high-earning toxic twats. Simply getting to the end of the season unscathed is, for 2018/19, mission complete as far as I'm concerned. I honestly don't think any Stoke manager has come into a more difficult situation than Jones has, and now he needs time to get rid of the dross and start to bring in his own players.

All the while though, we have the looming shadow of FFP limiting our room for manoeuvre, meaning we have to either get rid of the likes of Wimmer, Imbula et al (which has so far proven to be impossible) or sell the crown jewels and replace them with cheaper alternatives. Make no mistake, this is the sort of scenario that relegates bigger clubs than us (ask Sunderland) so we really have to be patient with what we're asking Jones to achieve and the time we're expecting him to achieve it in.

While the more impatient amongst us will point to Norwich and demand a similar rise from mid-table obscurity from stoke next year, we have to remember that what The Canaries have achieved is something exceptional, not a divine right for any club with a bit of history. The kind of pricks who are already hammering Jones for everything he does are the sort of gobshites who Norwich also had to contend with- and there were plenty of idiots in Norfolk calling for Daniel Farke's head because they were too impatient/stupid to realise that successful football teams are built over time, not overnight.

Make no mistake, Nathan Jones knows exactly what he wants when it comes to his team. he knows the system he wants to play and he knows the sort of players he wants in that system. What he can't do is magic them all here over one summer and get them integrated into his plan within a matter of weeks. Next year, I hope we do see something much better than this year (we need to, to be fair) but please don't demand that we fly out of the blocks and are tearing up the division by September; it isn't going to happen. We have to trust this man to assemble what he wants, and having read a fair bit on what he turned Luton into and how he did it, the main thing he needs from us is patience and time. I'm as sick of watching shite as anyone, but over the last few weeks of the season, the first green shoots of progress were visible. We were the better side against the 2 teams who won automatic promotion and also dominated Millwall on their own patch; compare that to the chaotic shambles we saw at Brentford or the moribund dross that Rowett oversaw at Christmas time. It wasn't brilliant, no, but it was a lot better.

Therefore, please let's not allow this summer to turn into 3 months of sniping and bitching, where we whinge at every player we're linked with, slash our wrists at every friendly defeat and then enter next year under a cloud of negativity. We have to allow the manager to do his thing and start the re-build, and it isn't going to be done in one window. This summer's about starting that process; next season's about making visible, demonstrable progress from this one and restoring some pride; the future's about building us into something like we once were, but we're not at that point yet. As supporters, we have to do our part- support the manager, support the club and allow success the conditions it needs in order to grow.

[andystokey]

Well said

[Deleted]

Great post. People need to give the bloke time to put his own stamp on the club.

[mattador78]

May 6, 2019 12:32:33 GMT Trouserdog said:

I'm not going to pretend that the last few years have been anything but awful, but when it comes to discussing Stoke, I'm already getting sick of stating the case for the bleeding obvious.

For the first time in years we have a manager at the helm who has a long-term plan, a tactical vision and a recent success on which to base his Stoke blueprint. However, never before has a new manager been burdened with such a dreadfully imbalanced and unmotivated squad of high-earning toxic twats. Simply getting to the end of the season unscathed is, for 2018/19, mission complete as far as I'm concerned. I honestly don't think any Stoke manager has come into a more difficult situation than Jones has, and now he needs time to get rid of the dross and start to bring in his own players.

All the while though, we have the looming shadow of FFP limiting our room for manoeuvre, meaning we have to either get rid of the likes of Wimmer, Imbula et al (which has so far proven to be impossible) or sell the crown jewels and replace them with cheaper alternatives. Make no mistake, this is the sort of scenario that relegates bigger clubs than us (ask Sunderland) so we really have to be patient with what we're asking Jones to achieve and the time we're expecting him to achieve it in.

While the more impatient amongst us will point to Norwich and demand a similar rise from mid-table obscurity from stoke next year, we have to remember that what The Canaries have achieved is something exceptional, not a divine right for any club with a bit of history. The kind of pricks who are already hammering Jones for everything he does are the sort of gobshites who Norwich also had to contend with- and there were plenty of idiots in Norfolk calling for Daniel Farke's head because they were too impatient/stupid to realise that successful football teams are built over time, not overnight.

Make no mistake, Nathan Jones knows exactly what he wants when it comes to his team. he knows the system he wants to play and he knows the sort of players he wants in that system. What he can't do is magic them all here over one summer and get them integrated into his plan within a matter of weeks. Next year, I hope we do see something much better than this year (we need to, to be fair) but please don't demand that we fly out of the blocks and are tearing up the division by September; it isn't going to happen. We have to trust this man to assemble what he wants, and having read a fair bit on what he turned Luton into and how he did it, the main thing he needs from us is patience and time. I'm as sick of watching shite as anyone, but over the last few weeks of the season, the first green shoots of progress were visible. We were the better side against the 2 teams who won automatic promotion and also dominated Millwall on their own patch; compare that to the chaotic shambles we saw at Brentford or the moribund dross that Rowett oversaw at Christmas time. It wasn't brilliant, no, but it was a lot better.

Therefore, please let's not allow this summer to turn into 3 months of sniping and bitching, where we whinge at every player we're linked with, slash our wrists at every friendly defeat and then enter next year under a cloud of negativity. We have to allow the manager to do his thing and start the re-build, and it isn't going to be done in one window. This summer's about starting that process; next season's about making visible, demonstrable progress from this one and restoring some pride; the future's about building us into something like we once were, but we're not at that point yet. As supporters, we have to do our part- support the manager, support the club and allow success the conditions it needs in order to grow.

I concur however you are preaching to the perverted on here in a lot of cases 👍 and I meant perverted as they enjoy the moaning

[Deleted]

The 2018/19 is no more.

All negativity should be consigned to the dustbin until we have seen the ins and outs, pre-season and the first couple of months with NJ's own team on the pitch.

People constantly droning on about mismanagement need to move on, mistakes have been made now lets give everyone a chance to rectify them......

[riponstokie]

Superb post. Anyone who believes 3 years on the slide are going to be stopped & converted into a simple promotion push are deluded. Next season is about stopping the rot, moving forward & progress. In my view, the season after is where we will tear this league apart. People calling for Jones' head if we aren't running away with the title are deluded, and ignorant of the colossal regression & negativity this club has been defined by the last 3 years. Give NJ time & we'll have a club to be proud of.

[MadridStokie]

Yes, a great post.

I think one of the big challenges Jones has to face is that, in the likely event that he does not completely assemble the squad he wants this summer, he is going to have to "pretend" that he has. In other words, he may have to move forward with some players that he did not really want but he cannot come out and say that. So his starting 20 or whatever number next season is unfortunately likely to contain players he does not really want but he cannot afford to alienate them and cause disharmony in the squad. And yet it is Jones that will get hammered if things do not show some improvement early even if the recruitment team / elimination team do not do enough over the next weeks to enable him to get as close as humanly possible to his desired 20.

I am not sure fans will show patience for this point (amongst many other factors) but I could see this being a big issue for Jones and he will need to find a way to overcome it.

[wakefieldstokie]

“Love... love will tear us apart, again”

[davejohnno1]

I love these "it's the fans fault" threads with a passion.

Each and every one of them is awesome.

Fans will praise. Fans will moan. Some will do both.

Such is life.

[philm87]

Was just about to say, how long do you reckon before some precious soul shows up and says ''Are you saying it's the fans fault''?

It's a bit more nuanced than that.

[andystokey]

Luckily the oatcake isn't the whole fanbase.

[CBUFAWKIPWH]

Great post - sums up the situation perfectly. The only sane thing to do is get behind the team and support them while they find their feet and hopefully start to turn into genuine promotion candidates. Moaning about the lack of instant success is going to get us nowhere.

[hooftastic]

It won't matter. NJ has a remit to rebuild and as long as we aren't relegation fodder then he's here to stay.

[stokeson]

Looks like a summer of Quire practice befor football reality kicks in .Sing boys sing.

[sheikhmomo]

If we're 16th next season he should be sacked. The end.

[danceswithclams]

May 6, 2019 12:39:27 GMT prestwichpotter said:

People constantly droning on about mismanagement need to move on

Don't you understand that we must/cannot stop continually expressing dissatisfaction about how the upper management of this club have fucked things up so badly and reminding everyone how we've thrown our Premier League status away, because if we do, then...er...because if we do, then everyone else won't know how angry we are or how we're not going anymore despite the fact that we've been watching Stoke since the Mesopotamian era.

[baltipiesmuggler]

Absolutely spot on.

My biggest worry for next year is impatience from the fans. I think many still think things will just click and we'll be sat in the top 3 after a couple of months.

Personally, I'd be happy enough to be sat mid table - as long as I'm entertained by a side that shows ambition, has absolute commitment and effort and can play a little.

It wont actually take much to keep me invested.

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 12:32:33 GMT Trouserdog said:

I'm not going to pretend that the last few years have been anything but awful, but when it comes to discussing Stoke, I'm already getting sick of stating the case for the bleeding obvious.

For the first time in years we have a manager at the helm who has a long-term plan, a tactical vision and a recent success on which to base his Stoke blueprint. However, never before has a new manager been burdened with such a dreadfully imbalanced and unmotivated squad of high-earning toxic twats. Simply getting to the end of the season unscathed is, for 2018/19, mission complete as far as I'm concerned. I honestly don't think any Stoke manager has come into a more difficult situation than Jones has, and now he needs time to get rid of the dross and start to bring in his own players.

All the while though, we have the looming shadow of FFP limiting our room for manoeuvre, meaning we have to either get rid of the likes of Wimmer, Imbula et al (which has so far proven to be impossible) or sell the crown jewels and replace them with cheaper alternatives. Make no mistake, this is the sort of scenario that relegates bigger clubs than us (ask Sunderland) so we really have to be patient with what we're asking Jones to achieve and the time we're expecting him to achieve it in.

While the more impatient amongst us will point to Norwich and demand a similar rise from mid-table obscurity from stoke next year, we have to remember that what The Canaries have achieved is something exceptional, not a divine right for any club with a bit of history. The kind of pricks who are already hammering Jones for everything he does are the sort of gobshites who Norwich also had to contend with- and there were plenty of idiots in Norfolk calling for Daniel Farke's head because they were too impatient/stupid to realise that successful football teams are built over time, not overnight.

Make no mistake, Nathan Jones knows exactly what he wants when it comes to his team. he knows the system he wants to play and he knows the sort of players he wants in that system. What he can't do is magic them all here over one summer and get them integrated into his plan within a matter of weeks. Next year, I hope we do see something much better than this year (we need to, to be fair) but please don't demand that we fly out of the blocks and are tearing up the division by September; it isn't going to happen. We have to trust this man to assemble what he wants, and having read a fair bit on what he turned Luton into and how he did it, the main thing he needs from us is patience and time. I'm as sick of watching shite as anyone, but over the last few weeks of the season, the first green shoots of progress were visible. We were the better side against the 2 teams who won automatic promotion and also dominated Millwall on their own patch; compare that to the chaotic shambles we saw at Brentford or the moribund dross that Rowett oversaw at Christmas time. It wasn't brilliant, no, but it was a lot better.

Therefore, please let's not allow this summer to turn into 3 months of sniping and bitching, where we whinge at every player we're linked with, slash our wrists at every friendly defeat and then enter next year under a cloud of negativity. We have to allow the manager to do his thing and start the re-build, and it isn't going to be done in one window. This summer's about starting that process; next season's about making visible, demonstrable progress from this one and restoring some pride; the future's about building us into something like we once were, but we're not at that point yet. As supporters, we have to do our part- support the manager, support the club and allow success the conditions it needs in order to grow.

Why do you spend 6 paragraphs saying "the bleeding obvious" when you could have said it all in one sentence?

[mrcoke]

May 6, 2019 13:09:15 GMT sheikhmomo said:

If we're 16th next season he should be sacked. The end.

Norwich finished 8th 3 seasons ago, Farke took over and in his first season finished 14th conceding 60 goals.

You would no doubt have sacked him, but the Norwich owners were more sensible and stuck with him, even though Norwich started the season W1,D2,L3,  and he has now produced a Championship champion side.

Santo also took 2 years at Wolves to turn their fortunes round. They were also 14th after his first season in charge, conceding 58 goals. No doubt you would have sacked him as well after his first season in charge.

As the excellent OP said, we have to be patient and let Jones work things out. He is likely to have set backs with some of our best players leaving and it is not going to be turned round quickly.

[cousindupree]

Christ another let give him time post! Yes I get it. Fast forward to the end of next season for a cut and paste post in the same theme.
Jones is an inexperienced manager who frankly has to learn fast. Lets hope he does.
Norwich is a totally different scenario. Farke learnt his management skills at Borussia Dortmund and tapped into his European contacts to come up with some serious gems for little investment,
We on the other hand have appointed a manager who learnt his trade in div 1 and div 2 and will be back there for many of his new players, lets hope its a winning strategy

[mrcoke]

May 6, 2019 13:29:32 GMT cousindupree said:

Christ another let give him time post! Yes I get it. Fast forward to the end of next season for a cut and paste post in the same theme.
Jones is an inexperienced manager who frankly has to learn fast. Lets hope he does.
Norwich is a totally different scenario. Farke learnt his management skills at Borussia Dortmund and tapped into his European contacts to come up with some serious gems for little investment,
We on the other hand have appointed a manager who learnt his trade in div 1 and div 2 and will be back there for many of his new players, lets hope its a winning strategy

Brian Clough learnt his trade at Hartlepools United and drove the team bus. During his career he often signed "unknown" and little thought of players (as well as some of the best) because his aim was to build successful teams, which Jones has already done.
Ferguson started in the Scottish 2nd Division and got sacked from his first job.

Starting at the bottom and working your way up produces some of the best managers in life. More so than some who have it handed to them on a plate.

[Deleted]

Very good post trouserdog. It will take a while for the dross to be shifted. I moan, but not about Jones. The upper echelons need sorting IMHO!
Now. About this quire practice. No doubt, we won't all be singing off the same song sheet. Will the person who posted that, please tell me they were joking about that spelling! Try putting HICOR into something to do with singing! Re- arranging it, by the way!

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 12:53:57 GMT davejohnno1 said:

I love these "it's the fans fault" threads with a passion.

Each and every one of them is awesome.

Fans will praise. Fans will moan. Some will do both.

Such is life.

Yeah, but some piss and moan for the sake of it. They see negativity in virtually everything the club does.

[chuckrocky]

May 6, 2019 13:29:32 GMT cousindupree said:

Christ another let give him time post! Yes I get it. Fast forward to the end of next season for a cut and paste post in the same theme.
Jones is an inexperienced manager who frankly has to learn fast. Lets hope he does.
Norwich is a totally different scenario. Farke learnt his management skills at Borussia Dortmund and tapped into his European contacts to come up with some serious gems for little investment,
We on the other hand have appointed a manager who learnt his trade in div 1 and div 2 and will be back there for many of his new players, lets hope its a winning strategy

So you’re saying a manger who’s only ever managed the reserves of a big club is more experienced than a first team manager of a lower league club?

[cheeesfreeex]

I've pretty much kept me gob shut since Nathan's arrival.
Prepared to give him and the players a chance to see what they've got.

Not impressed with what he's shown so far.
Even pre match yesterday he was full of hollow words, contradictory shit.
'A great Club, great players etc etc. Looking forward to building my own squad...'

Actions Nathan, actions... should be doing far better with the squad that you've got.

Crap selections, shite tactics. The Diamond exposed down the sides yet again.

Hoping for a miraculous summer, it'll have to be to alter this.

Not impressed so far.
;-(

[Deleted]

Well said Trousers. It will fall massively on deaf ears, but well done for the effort all the same.

[spitthedog]

I'm sure we can all agree that if it wasn't for negativity on the Oatcake we would be playing Barcelona on Tuesday with an away goal

[Deleted]

May 6, 2019 14:07:18 GMT cheeesfreeex said:

I've pretty much kept me gob shut since Nathan's arrival.
Prepared to give him and the players a chance to see what they've got.

Not impressed with what he's shown so far.
Even pre match yesterday he was full of hollow words, contradictory shit.
'A great Club, great players etc etc. Looking forward to building my own squad...'

Actions Nathan, actions... should be doing far better with the squad that you've got.

Crap selections, shite tactics. The Diamond exposed down the sides yet again.

Hoping for a miraculous summer, it'll have to be to alter this.

Not impressed so far.
;-(

How many actions in relation to building the squad he wants do you expect from him so far??

[sheikhmomo]

May 6, 2019 13:38:09 GMT mrcoke said:

May 6, 2019 13:29:32 GMT cousindupree said:

Christ another let give him time post! Yes I get it. Fast forward to the end of next season for a cut and paste post in the same theme.
Jones is an inexperienced manager who frankly has to learn fast. Lets hope he does.
Norwich is a totally different scenario. Farke learnt his management skills at Borussia Dortmund and tapped into his European contacts to come up with some serious gems for little investment,
We on the other hand have appointed a manager who learnt his trade in div 1 and div 2 and will be back there for many of his new players, lets hope its a winning strategy

Brian Clough learnt his trade at Hartlepools United and drove the team bus. During his career he often signed "unknown" and little thought of players (as well as some of the best) because his aim was to build successful teams, which Jones has already done.
Ferguson started in the Scottish 2nd Division and got sacked from his first job.

Starting at the bottom and working your way up produces some of the best managers in life. More so than some who have it handed to them on a plate.

So relegation aside, he gets a complete free pass again next year. We don't need to see improvement because he may do a 'Farke'?

Jesus fucking wept, ten years in the Premier League and 18 months later we're just happy to be a bottom half Championship club with the biggest wage budget by a street.

He and we need to be much much better or he will pay with his job

That's football.

[spitthedog]

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