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Post by canadianmoose on Jan 25, 2019 12:32:45 GMT
If he didn’t hold a commercial licence then he was breaking the law. Even if he did have a commercial licence the aircraft used was completely appropriate for the trip. Piper Malibu’s make this kind of journey all the time. It’s what they were built for. What I don’t get is why they were at 5000 feet in cruise and then dropped to 2500 feet. That suggests either a mechanical issue or that the pilot was no instrument rated and was trying to stay under the weather to maintain VFR. The Malibu has a service ceiling of 25,000 feet so no reason to be down so low. Surely he would only be breaking the law if he carried a paying passenger? I have to admit that I find it difficult to believe that either the player, or someone acting on the player's behalf, DID NOT pay the pilot for the trip but it is possible, I suppose. Yes, I’m assuming it was a paid trip.
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Post by bassmaster on Jan 25, 2019 12:47:05 GMT
Our local authorities are coming under increasing pressure to resume the search having called it off yesterday as there’s no reasonable expectation that anyone would be found alive. Whilst the pain for family and friends is acknowledged, it’s hardly fair to ask volunteers to continue to risk their own wellbeing and safety in what has been professionally assessed as a now pointless exercise.
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Post by Absolution on Jan 25, 2019 12:52:57 GMT
Our local authorities are coming under increasing pressure to resume the search having called it off yesterday as there’s no reasonable expectation that anyone would be found alive. Whilst the pain for family and friends is acknowledged, it’s hardly fair to ask volunteers to continue to risk their own wellbeing and safety in what has been professionally assessed as a now pointless exercise. Literal life and death situations like this are really difficult to be pragmatic about because the heart and the head are going in completely opposite directions. It's easy enough to sympathise with both sides.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 12:54:54 GMT
So very true mate,I’m a big believer that fate plays a massive part in everyone’s life So am I but if I walked into an airport for a flight that had been booked for me and they said "here's your plane mate" and one of those shitty little things was sitting on the runway I'd tell them to fuck right off and walk away. I really can't believe that anybody would think getting in one of those things is a good idea, for the distance they were travelling, at night and across the English channel it's just asking for trouble. I wunna even get on one of those Flybe ones to Dublin. If you can see the propellers, its a no from me.
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Post by raythesailor on Jan 25, 2019 13:02:07 GMT
As a proffesional sailing instructor and Charter skipper I had to go through very thorough practical and theoretical tests and examinations to obtain commercial endorsements and had to take updates every few years. This entitled me to take students and charterers on board and in the eyes of the regulators they are classed as Fare Paying Passengers. A private boat owner without these qualifications taking Fare paying passengers is Breaking The Law and can be heavily fined or imprisoned.
The boats are also subject to very strict regulations and additional safety equipment etc.
I am sure that the flying authorities have similar and possibly even stricter regulations.
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Post by canadianmoose on Jan 25, 2019 13:02:26 GMT
So am I but if I walked into an airport for a flight that had been booked for me and they said "here's your plane mate" and one of those shitty little things was sitting on the runway I'd tell them to fuck right off and walk away. I really can't believe that anybody would think getting in one of those things is a good idea, for the distance they were travelling, at night and across the English channel it's just asking for trouble. I wunna even get on one of those Flybe ones to Dublin. If you can see the propellers, its a no from me. You do understand that a turboprop is a jet engine with a prop on the end? It’s equally as reliable as any other jet engine.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 13:15:33 GMT
I wunna even get on one of those Flybe ones to Dublin. If you can see the propellers, its a no from me. You do understand that a turboprop is a jet engine with a prop on the end? It’s equally as reliable as any other jet engine. Don’t care.
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Post by 1863 on Jan 25, 2019 14:22:42 GMT
I wunna even get on one of those Flybe ones to Dublin. If you can see the propellers, its a no from me. You do understand that a turboprop is a jet engine with a prop on the end? It’s equally as reliable as any other jet engine. Although PA46 Malibu's have undoubtedly been fitted with a 'Turbine' engine, this 1984 vintage model was quite clearly a 'Piston' engined model. Wikipedias entry for this particular engine is worth a 'google' "The Continental TSIO-520-BE powered Malibu was discontinued in 1988 following a series of incidents and accidents attributed to engine failures. One such accident resulted in a settlement in which Teledyne Continental Motors paid $32,125,000 to a pilot injured in the crash of a Malibu.[6]" By all means, support and encourage 'General Aviation' but please don't ever try to give credence to the notion that the owner's of this particular aircraft, the persons who have offered the services of this aircraft between France and Wales (illegally, N registered US) , the agents (football and otherwise) who have procured the use of this a/c indeed the private pilot's who have offered their questionable abilities in operating this aircraft, don't in some way have the blood of Emiliano Sala on their hands. I bet everyone on this board in their own careers knows the pervasiveness of the 'bottom feeders' that have made nearly every trade and industry compete on anything but a level playing field, in this country. The knowledge that even in the heady atmosphere of 'private executive' air charter, this type of behaviour occurs and ultimately leads to the death of this poor kid, comes as no shock, to anyone who has watched the spivs who move in these circles grow evermore Bold.
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Post by trentvale68 on Jan 25, 2019 14:28:18 GMT
Let's say they did survive the landing/crash, how long could they survive in a raft? Do these things include bottled water attached in someway, could you survive off available rainwater? I know you can ages without food but water is another matter. Plus of course clothing or lack of to protect from the elements? If there is even a 1per cent chance, they must continue the search. It's not as if we're talking the entire Atlantic ocean is it? You can bet if it was the Duke of Edinburgh, they'd have conscripted every man and his dog and a Dunkirk worthy armada to join in a search.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 25, 2019 14:43:49 GMT
If he didn’t hold a commercial licence then he was breaking the law. Even if he did have a commercial licence the aircraft used was completely appropriate for the trip. Piper Malibu’s make this kind of journey all the time. It’s what they were built for. What I don’t get is why they were at 5000 feet in cruise and then dropped to 2500 feet. That suggests either a mechanical issue or that the pilot was no instrument rated and was trying to stay under the weather to maintain VFR. The Malibu has a service ceiling of 25,000 feet so no reason to be down so low. Maybe the plane was icing up so the pilot dropped altitude for that reason, which they often do.
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Post by bassmaster on Jan 25, 2019 14:50:06 GMT
Our local authorities are coming under increasing pressure to resume the search having called it off yesterday as there’s no reasonable expectation that anyone would be found alive. Whilst the pain for family and friends is acknowledged, it’s hardly fair to ask volunteers to continue to risk their own wellbeing and safety in what has been professionally assessed as a now pointless exercise. Literal life and death situations like this are really difficult to be pragmatic about because the heart and the head are going in completely opposite directions. It's easy enough to sympathise with both sides. Being blunt, this is not a 'life' situation anymore and has not been for some time. Why exert pressure to continue an operation that risks the life's and wellbeing of others?
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Post by raythesailor on Jan 25, 2019 16:37:13 GMT
Let's say they did survive the landing/crash, how long could they survive in a raft? Do these things include bottled water attached in someway, could you survive off available rainwater? I know you can ages without food but water is another matter. Plus of course clothing or lack of to protect from the elements? If there is even a 1per cent chance, they must continue the search. It's not as if we're talking the entire Atlantic ocean is it? You can bet if it was the Duke of Edinburgh, they'd have conscripted every man and his dog and a Dunkirk worthy armada to join in a search. If they had managed to launch and inflate a life raft they would have been easily found within a few short hours. The sea temperatures are so cold that if they were in the water they would probably be incapable of climbing into the raft. The raft would carry water, and more importantly flares. As Bassmaster has said further searches are futile. We must sadly accept that they are gone. Sonar or even RN submarine searches are the only hope of finding any wreckage. The tides in this area are so strong that any small amounts of debris that may eventually come up could be in the middle of the Bay Of Biscay before they are found.
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Post by trentvale68 on Jan 25, 2019 22:35:20 GMT
Curious on this as at what point would the authorities declare somebody dead in this situation, with no body likely to ever be found??
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Jan 25, 2019 22:39:36 GMT
Curious on this as at what point would the authorities declare somebody dead in this situation, with no body likely to ever be found?? I suspect they already will have done, it just hasn’t been made public yet.
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Post by canadianmoose on Jan 26, 2019 0:33:07 GMT
You do understand that a turboprop is a jet engine with a prop on the end? It’s equally as reliable as any other jet engine. Although PA46 Malibu's have undoubtedly been fitted with a 'Turbine' engine, this 1984 vintage model was quite clearly a 'Piston' engined model. Wikipedias entry for this particular engine is worth a 'google' "The Continental TSIO-520-BE powered Malibu was discontinued in 1988 following a series of incidents and accidents attributed to engine failures. One such accident resulted in a settlement in which Teledyne Continental Motors paid $32,125,000 to a pilot injured in the crash of a Malibu.[6]" By all means, support and encourage 'General Aviation' but please don't ever try to give credence to the notion that the owner's of this particular aircraft, the persons who have offered the services of this aircraft between France and Wales (illegally, N registered US) , the agents (football and otherwise) who have procured the use of this a/c indeed the private pilot's who have offered their questionable abilities in operating this aircraft, don't in some way have the blood of Emiliano Sala on their hands. I bet everyone on this board in their own careers knows the pervasiveness of the 'bottom feeders' that have made nearly every trade and industry compete on anything but a level playing field, in this country. The knowledge that even in the heady atmosphere of 'private executive' air charter, this type of behaviour occurs and ultimately leads to the death of this poor kid, comes as no shock, to anyone who has watched the spivs who move in these circles grow evermore Bold. Thanks for all that but I’m fully aware of the malibu engine in this case. The reply was regarding the “flybe” aircraft to Dublin as indicated from the quote You will also note that I made it clear that if this pilot accepted a paid job doing this trip as private pilot license holder he has broken the law. End of.
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Post by notaclucus on Jan 26, 2019 6:55:02 GMT
Just seen news Cardiff have been denied the opportunity to sign players for a limited amount of time after the window closes.
Massively disagree with the Prem's decision on this. Fair enough rules are rules but how bad would it look if because of this tragic accident they went out and signed another striker in the following days.
Surely circumstancially they've lost at least a week of the window?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 26, 2019 7:15:16 GMT
In one job I had in the RN I flew daily by Dauphin helicopter to warships operating in the English Channel. Even though these aircraft had a very good safety record we always wore immersion suits and self inflating life preservers. Attached to the preserver was a small radio locating beacon. My point is that a risk assessment of their journey should have high lighted the possibility of a ditching in poor weather and may just have saved their lives.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jan 26, 2019 8:16:44 GMT
In one job I had in the RN I flew daily by Dauphin helicopter to warships operating in the English Channel. Even though these aircraft had a very good safety record we always wore immersion suits and self inflating life preservers. Attached to the preserver was a small radio locating beacon. My point is that a risk assessment of their journey should have high lighted the possibility of a ditching in poor weather and may just have saved their lives. Me too LL. At the end of the Falklands War, as a Customs Officer, myself and my team flew out by helicopter to most of the ships returning to Plymouth. Like you we wore immersion suits and self inflating life jackets - and only those staff who had been on a course including immersion in a simulator tank designed to reproduce a forced landing at sea, were allowed to volunteer. You may ask why the warships and crew on the way back from war were required to clear Customs? Partly it was PR - the govt. were worried that the media would make critical comment if ships were not being visted. We made sure we never took any duty from the crew. For example, Rolex watches bought in the Far East by crew who happened to be there when the war started, were never seized or charged - I used to declare that they were "bomb damaged!" Partly it was to gain intelligence as to what, if any, amount of "souvenirs" - especially weapons and ammo - seized from the enemy would be attempted to be smuggled out of Devonport after the crew were given shore leave.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 26, 2019 11:52:06 GMT
In one job I had in the RN I flew daily by Dauphin helicopter to warships operating in the English Channel. Even though these aircraft had a very good safety record we always wore immersion suits and self inflating life preservers. Attached to the preserver was a small radio locating beacon. My point is that a risk assessment of their journey should have high lighted the possibility of a ditching in poor weather and may just have saved their lives. Me too LL. At the end of the Falklands War, as a Customs Officer, myself and my team flew out by helicopter to most of the ships returning to Plymouth. Like you we wore immersion suits and self inflating life jackets - and only those staff who had been on a course including immersion in a simulator tank designed to reproduce a forced landing at sea, were allowed to volunteer. You may ask why the warships and crew on the way back from war were required to clear Customs? Partly it was PR - the govt. were worried that the media would make critical comment if ships were not being visted. We made sure we never took any duty from the crew. For example, Rolex watches bought in the Far East by crew who happened to be there when the war started, were never seized - I used to declare that they were "bomb damaged!" Partly it was to gain intelligence as to what, if any, amount of "souvenirs" - especially weapons and ammo - seized from the enemy would be attempted to be smuggled out of Devonport after the crew were given shore leave. I returned from the Falklands on QE2 having been on the frigate HMS Antelope which was sunk by enemy action. We came back to Southampton and remember the Customs "checks". I literally had nothing to declare as it was all at the bottom of San Carlos Sound where it still is. Wonder if our paths ever crossed as Customs we’re always onboard ships I was on returning to Devonport from deployment all over the world?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jan 26, 2019 13:51:58 GMT
Me too LL. At the end of the Falklands War, as a Customs Officer, myself and my team flew out by helicopter to most of the ships returning to Plymouth. Like you we wore immersion suits and self inflating life jackets - and only those staff who had been on a course including immersion in a simulator tank designed to reproduce a forced landing at sea, were allowed to volunteer. You may ask why the warships and crew on the way back from war were required to clear Customs? Partly it was PR - the govt. were worried that the media would make critical comment if ships were not being visted. We made sure we never took any duty from the crew. For example, Rolex watches bought in the Far East by crew who happened to be there when the war started, were never seized - I used to declare that they were "bomb damaged!" Partly it was to gain intelligence as to what, if any, amount of "souvenirs" - especially weapons and ammo - seized from the enemy would be attempted to be smuggled out of Devonport after the crew were given shore leave. I returned from the Falklands on QE2 having been on the frigate HMS Antelope which was sunk by enemy action. We came back to Southampton and remember the Customs "checks". I literally had nothing to declare as it was all at the bottom of San Carlos Sound where it still is. Wonder if our paths ever crossed as Customs we’re always onboard ships I was on returning to Devonport from deployment all over the world? Well done for surviving Antelope. I still remember the news coming through that she had been hit followed by the graphic pictures. It brought it all home to me how close many of the ships came to disaster when I flew out to one returning ship (might have been HMS Arrow?) and noted recent metal patches either side of the hanger deck. We were met by the Master at Arms who explained that the patches were where an Exocet had passed through the hanger without exploding. My next door neighbour (a Marine captain) survived Mt. Tumbledown - and the father of a customs colleague was an officer on the Atlantic Conveyer when she was sunk - thankfully he survived. Amazingly my colleague actually got confirmation of his dad's survival within an hour or two of hearing that she had been hit. We probably did cross paths at some point - like ships that pass in the night if you'll excuse the pun!
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Feb 3, 2019 21:05:54 GMT
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Post by JesusisaStokie on Feb 3, 2019 21:15:08 GMT
RIP
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 21:20:55 GMT
So am I but if I walked into an airport for a flight that had been booked for me and they said "here's your plane mate" and one of those shitty little things was sitting on the runway I'd tell them to fuck right off and walk away. I really can't believe that anybody would think getting in one of those things is a good idea, for the distance they were travelling, at night and across the English channel it's just asking for trouble. I wunna even get on one of those Flybe ones to Dublin. If you can see the propellers, its a no from me. Those propeller flyebe are the safest because if the engine fail they can glide
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Feb 3, 2019 23:00:43 GMT
Glad they’ve found the wreckage, at least his and the pilots family get some semblance of closure now.
Tragic.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Feb 3, 2019 23:10:16 GMT
Yep tragic. RIP.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 23:45:35 GMT
The murky world of football agents. Agent's email reveals how Emiliano Sala was persuaded to sign for Cardiff "In the prior email, McKay told Sala how Cardiff "will pay you around £50,000-per-week, plus bonuses, on a contract of four to five years. And whoever accompanies you, whether it is your agent or your mother, who, according to English law, can represent you, could claim around £1m from the deal."
He added: "It is said that you did not want to go to Cardiff. It is probably our fault because we have said in the media that other clubs like West Ham, Everton, etc were interested in order to create an interest around you."
McKay suggests he can eventually get Sala a move to "Manchester, Liverpool and Chelsea" should he sign for Cardiff. He wrote on Jan 8: "We are not interested in personal affairs; finances, holidays, baby-sitting, that is not our business."
McKay referenced the multi-million pound deals that his family had been involved in, adding: "We make transfers! More than 600 until today, from Didier Drogba, to (Nicolas) Anelka, (Dimitri) Payet, (Jean Michael) Seri, (André-Frank Zambo) Anguissa. Let us introduce you to the way we operate and how we came to this Cardiff City saga. We work for clubs in France, and for players who want to be transferred to England. As far as you are concerned, we have talked to all the clubs, including Manchester, Chelsea, Liverpool. We think you could end up in such clubs.
"We approached Nantes, as we do with many players in other clubs, to obtain the mandate of sale. We are not preventing you from working with another agent, but most players are very satisfied with our mediation. We do not say 'we are like a father to a son to our players'. No, if you had not been a footballer, these people would not be interested in you. In the end they are only interested in the money. What we all want a lot of, of course. That's why we like to work with just the clubs. No sentiment, we're just doing business."
Referring specifically to the Cardiff City deal, Mr McKay wrote: "My experience says: if you do not go for the Premier League now, you will regret it.
"It's been said that Cardiff does not interest you. But that is probably our mistake, because we 'leaked' in the media that other clubs like West Ham and Everton want you. Just to stimulate the interest in you.
"That is how we work and that may be misinterpreted by the player. But without that 'buzz' nobody would know you. Because, honestly, nobody follows the French competition [Ligue 1]."
The emails were initially published in French newspaper L'Equipe. McKay told Telegraph Sport: "I sent the emails to L'Equipe because I want the truth to come out. This is out how it works."
He said his family had been left "devastated" by events over the last week. McKay described how he arranged the flight.
"I said to Dave [Henderson], I need a plane. He said no problem. He paid the landing fees and fuel."
Crash investigators are poised to launch a sea-bed search after indicating the single-engined aircraft came down somewhere off the coast of Surtainville, on the Cotentin Peninsula. Cushions from two seats believed to belong to the were discovered on a beach about 20 miles from the last known position of the aircraft.
According to McKay, Henderson had to pay for Ibbotson's hotel in France, and for the airline fuel. Ibbotson, who had written online that he was a bit "rusty" before the flight, had reportedly told Henderson that he had lost his credit card. Related Topics"Follow Telegraph Football
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Post by trentvale68 on Feb 4, 2019 0:29:50 GMT
Perhaps unlikely but would be something if could recover bodies although after 2 weeks it will be a grim sight.
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Post by shakermaker on Feb 4, 2019 12:03:49 GMT
It's just been confirmed an underwater rover has found a body within the wreckage. Just truly heartbreaking. Must be awful to look at if you're one of the investigators. RIP to both.
Do these planes have a black box fitted to them?
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Post by Gifton on Feb 4, 2019 14:33:23 GMT
It's just been confirmed an underwater rover has found a body within the wreckage. Just truly heartbreaking. Must be awful to look at if you're one of the investigators. RIP to both. Do these planes have a black box fitted to them? I might be wrong but I'm sure I read this type of plane doesn't legally require a black box.
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Post by canadianmoose on Feb 4, 2019 14:44:11 GMT
It's just been confirmed an underwater rover has found a body within the wreckage. Just truly heartbreaking. Must be awful to look at if you're one of the investigators. RIP to both. Do these planes have a black box fitted to them? No. Only an ELT. (Emergency Locator Transmitter) - At least here in Canada. But they don't work in deep water anyway.
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