Scholes and Cartwright? Time To Go?

[ashleyscfc]

Relegation to the championship could cost the club £100m, the local area even more. On top of that hundreds of jobs both directly connected to the club and in the area. Even worse our local pride will take a massive knock when things just seemed to be turning a corner.

These two men, one head of recruitment and the other the man who appointed him have presided over this mess. Whilst being overseen and trusted by a board seemingly sleep at the wheel.

I fully appreciate and accept that Tony Scholes is no chief scout, he has no footballing experience to speak of in the game. However after many statements from the club that "only the manager signs players", we have seen with the signings of Bauer and Ndiaye that this is not strictly true. In terms of quality of player bought in he is not to blame. He is however responsible for the man he hired to do that side of the work. They have both failed on numerous occasions.

Tony Scholes however is in charge of how budgets are used, and as head of “running” of the club, he oversees all aspects including setting the standards of what the club is and means to those affected by it.

Yet again tonight we have Jesé in the papers with reports he’s out on the piss in Spain, not really spending time with his child and the Stoke City mole John Percy has another exclusive again about lack of standards and care from stoke city footballers with no official line from the club.

What is our press department doing?
Why does nobody at the top of our club appear to have a grip of this situation?
Why have we had bad press after bad press when we are in a relegation battle for week after week?

Why is Tony Scholes and the board not setting the standards for what is expected of players and Staff? Regardless of who is manager? Why is it not intrinsically drummed in to players what it means to play for this club? What it means to the area and why is that respect for the club instilled into them from day one? Why does it appear it has taken a new manager to come in to install discipline into this squad and give the club direction? It is clear we need more successful "footballing people" at the top of the club to sort this mess out and people with proven track records of success. Especially recruitment.


The whole situation reeks of a rudderless ship that has already hit the iceberg and I'm afraid the club management were willingly asleep at the wheel.

Since Cartwright has come in I dare say his hit rate has been less that 50% on signings. Scholes and he have presided over::
- Berahino fiasco - A player with a known chequered past and now clearly spending far over the odds
- Imbula - A player with the wrong 'attitude' from the start, little grasp of English. Another player who was clearly the wrong fit for the club
- Agudelo - What happened there?!
- Wimmer - A player with an astronomical fee but no quality to show for it. Another time Spurs have had our pants down.
- Palacios - A make way for the crouch deal with little pay off
- Jese - Ambition...say no more
- Moting - A free transfer replacing your best player who kept us in the league must be great for a CEO when it comes off, but when it does you pay the price
- The late signing of Bruno - Seemingly a self sabotage mission to mess up the start of the season and what was turning into the most stable centre back partnership we'd had in years for what?
- Letting Bardsley go for Johnson
- Extended contracts for Ireland Affellay? Why?
- John Guidetti, Texiera, Sidwell, Van Ginkel, Jamie Ness, Edu, Shea, Bony - All failures
- The failure to sign a striker of good enough quality since 2012


Its nothing short of a complete shambles and shows how without a strong manager we are a vacant of any identity as a club as it is not being set by the board at all.

We have heard about 'self sustainability' and wanting to produce more academy players and yet we have had a revolving door of academy directors and seemingly no pragmatic approach to put things right apart from keeping talking about it and hoping it becomes true. Im sure Peter Coates would love for stoke to follow a Southampton model and sell one or two academy or recruited players for £30m+ every year but we have no track record of being able to do it, and no idea how to start to make that happen. The academy and scouting team is not up to it and simply wishing it would happen gets us in the situation we have now. Simply buying good foreign players for the U23 squad or an off the shelf Coever training scheme won't cut it.

Not only that but hoping to do that would mean the club have an ongoing identity of both the club they are, the type of players they want to recruit and the type of football we want to play. And I have seen nothing to suggest we have a clue?! We have no identity, no 'stoke way'. For example, even in the championship the Brighton academy philosophy was "Brighton want to play and attractive brand of possession football with a winning mentality throughout their teams. We therefore recognise the need for all players to become skilled and confident technicians who enjoy and are comfortable on possession. Whilst developing a real game understanding"

What do we stand for? Apart from a trying to get in a bunch of failed mercenaries that nobody else wants? Name the number of times stoke bought a successful recognised premier league player who was wanted by other clubs? Allen? Crouch?

Yes the community aspects of the club have expanded but anyone who has any day to day interaction with the club know that is not a well run ship. From match day experience, the car parks, ticket office, the PA system, communication from the club, marketing. The club have done lots of great things in recent history such as the ticket price freezes, away fan travel, supporters council etc but I don't think this is enough to cover the ongoing clusterfuck that is Stoke City FC at the moment. The former management team staff still being at the club, failed signings, bad press.

These problems are not from recent times and will take a lot of tough honesty and pragmatism from the club to put right. Change must happen.

As fans I think we need to put pressure on them to make sure they do.

[metalhead]

Can't imagine either will be going.

[generationex]

No strong manager will put up with Cartwright.
Coates Junior needs to accept it was a screw -up.
And authorise the 100 million it will cost to put his mistake right.

[mrcoke]

It makes me a very sad Stokie to say I second the OP.

I would go a step further. The club has "sleep walked" towards relegation and I have to admit I misplaced my loyalty for too long to the Chairman and Hughes. I finally lost patience with Hughes during November as we failed to beat fellow struggling clubs and were thrashed by West Ham in December.

Tonight, with all the news leaked in recent weeks I have to say I cannot support the Chairman any longer. He and the executive of the club have clearly been negligent in so many aspects of the club administration. They kept fans like me on side for a long time with policies like freezing ticket prices, free transport, steady improvements in all the fixed assets, etc., but have clearly fallen far short on the aspects of managing the human resources. The failure to get individuals fit for purpose, dreadful errors in player investments, and the lack of discipline off the pitch, leads me to conclude their needs to be a new strong capable chairman who must turn the club inside out and remove all the people responsible for the debacle that has taken place and restore order.

We should be eternally grateful for what he has done for Stoke City, but it is time Peter Coates handed the reins over to someone else.

[FrankButcher]

Cartwright has been a disaster "Technical Director" for stoke in my opinion at least with John Rudge and Pulis we knew Pulis was choosing the players and Rudge was helping him by taking the work load from Pulis when needed.

[djduncanjames]

OK what did Carto get right?

Arnie, Bojan, Muni, who else (the latter 2 were polly put on his desk by an agent..

What did he get right ?

I can't think of one other,than Arnie.

Wolly, Joselu, really? Any of us could of rang Chelsea for Moses or Van Ginkel.. Guidetti, Bony...
Fill in the blanks. With millions of zeros

[djduncanjames]

[CalgaryPotter]

Jobs for the boys & nepotism reign at Stoke.

Read Cartwright’s Wiki. He’s a nothing player, a nothing manager who had a stint as an agent at Beswicks. Players under his guidance were fucking no marks too.

Hughes management team have family members in a number of positions.

Were all these positions advertised and the best persons interviewed and picked for the job?

Were they bollocks. Even with all Bet365 money we’re a fucking joke.

[cobhamstokey]

If Coates got rid of these 2 clowns it would go a long way towards winning back the fans. Get in 2 proper football people not an accountant. Those deals listed are the reason we’re in the mess we are.
We need to freshen up the club with a new management team, hungry young players and a new media team.
I’d stick with Lambert so we can see what he can do with a decent striker or two.

[Deleted]

Apr 12, 2018 6:59:33 GMT cobhamstokey said:

If Coates got rid of these 2 clowns it would go a long way towards winning back the fans. Get in 2 proper football people not an accountant. Those deals listed are the reason we’re in the mess we are.
We need to freshen up the club with a new management team, hungry young players and a new media team.
I’d stick with Lambert so we can see what he can do with a decent striker or two.

Spot on Cobs, I totally agree.

Get rid of Scholes and Carto and most of the fans would see that the Coates clan have understood the situation(at long last) and are taking positive steps to rectify the problems.

Sadly and worryingly I fear one or both will remain in their positions and it will be just the manager and players who are deemed responsible.

[superheroantonius]

Imo... Lambo badou and bauer have come in and been positive and had a positive impact

And we are still no where near good enough!!

Which shows what a right royal mess up, hughes scholes and carto made of everything

I agree hughes scholes and carto should all go. That is fair

I dont think individually or collectively, Lambo badou and bauer deserve criticism for producing an improvement but being unable to produce a miracle

[cheekymatt71]

I fear they are going nowhere. We need a new team recruited for Championship next season. We need to start planning and looking for players now, so Cartwright would have been out the door already if that was the plan.

[jarvinski]

Best post this year, everything said is true

[wuzza]

The underlying question always remains though ‘how much are their actions governed by the instructions of those they work for?’.
Scholes probably works to guidelines provided by Coates and Cartwright works inline with demands from Scholes and the team manager of the time.
I’m not saying they are full blown scapegoats but I think it would be wrong to think that losing them would cure all the current ills that beset the club,
Look at the underlying philosophy that has been imposed on the club (sustainability and youth development) and you might just find the root of a lot of the problems.

[superheroantonius]

Its interesting that when TP started at stoke he was surrounded by proper football people... John rudge, gerry francis, peter reid

And he seemed to be better for it. And the club seemed to be better for it

Now, the club is awash with proper gravy train people, scholes, carto, half of mark hughes extended family at one point

And the results are there for all to see

You reap what You sew

[flea79]

this being Coates would only bring back Moxey

[superheroantonius]

Just sort It coates

Stop sitting on your hands
Stop looking the other way

And Just fecking sort It

You yourself managed to get in john rudge, gerry francis and peter reid in the not too distant past.
I dont even know what they did! But I do know they were the fount of all footballing knowledge compared to scholes and carto

Stop running a laughing stock

Get in some proper football people, like what You used to do.

Give your manager a chance

And Give the fans some hope

[smallthorner]

I'm amazed Coates Junior gets off relatively scott free in the blame game.

Wouldn't surprise me if he's the biggest problem of the lot.

[davejohnno1]

Simon Jordan, unbelievably, has just spoken pretty well of Tony Scholes...less glowingly about Peter Coates it might be added as the two clearly don't get on.

[lordb]

Scholes is on the board,he isn't going anywhere is he.

[vahl]

Apr 12, 2018 8:40:40 GMT smallthorner said:

I'm amazed Coates Junior gets off relatively scott free in the blame game.

Wouldn't surprise me if he's the biggest problem of the lot.

Said it before, when Peter Coates decides it really is enough - which is coming up fast regardless, just because life goes on and he's old now - we are not going to be any better off for it.

His son doesn't have the same eye as his Dad for the nogger. It is that simple.

Something even as recent as the QSF chase will tell you and show you - John Coates was given the green light to go and get his man and got given the run around, publicly. The celebrity Spanish Super Agent knew more about what was going on than either John Coates or Tony Scholes and what's obvious to me is, during 'negotiations', Peter Coates gave them the call and told them to get back home pronto, because Daddy will sort it out.

Get fucking home, you're grounded. Forever.

[Davef]

Interesting....

[19notbeaten72]

Nothing will change & the hiring of Lambert with a contract of more than 6 months tells you all you need to know.
The club needs big changes right from the top with proper football people being employed with there finger on the pulse.

[wozzerthepotter]

I was just about to write a similar post to the OP's great post.

in companies turning over £100m plus the Chairman in this case Peter Coates does not make decisions he is on the board to advise and post a casting vote should there be a tie the decisions are made by DC, JC, Scholes & Carto and the rest of the board. However it is incumbent on PC to present the results of these votes in a positive way.

I would imagine that MH & PL have to present a request for expenditure on players, a budget is then set by the board. Obviously the board as group have not been willing to authorise the right level of expenditure to get the players we need with Scholes probably preaching the self sustainability mantra and a view that we would get by.

Hence the QSF cock up he obviously wanted more than the board were willing to spend the board came back and said that is our top offer and that was the end of that.

Carto's responsibility in all this is the players he has identified have been in general poorer than he believed and have been given contracts that are far to long.

I think we are probably seeing why MH continually said no one will do any better than I'm doing here. My guess is he has been tied up tight in a legal contract so we will never know.

Peter, Denise & John will have to have a good look at what has gone on and make decisions about the way forward which may be they are happy to be a championship club or hopefully they will have a root and branch clear out of senior management and players and start from scratch in the championship with a young vibrant up and coming manager.

A lot of things need to change this close season

[Staffsoatcake]

Scholes,Hoss and Lambert will all be here next season and beyond.

[iglugluk]

It's hard to envisage any fundamental changes happening given the recent history of the club.
The Coates family have allowed all their good work to disappear at an alarming rate but all the quotes and subsequent actions taken indicate a total refusal to take any responsibility for the huge mess their mistakes in approach have led to.
I simply have no faith in them to make the necessary changes, unfortunately........... many fans here could see this disastrous season approaching but those that mattered simply could not.
This situation remains the same now and everything we see happening at the club confirms this negative approach to making real and necessary changes......... an unbelievable level of incompetence for a club run by people capable of creating such a successful business in other areas.

[LGH87]

Apr 11, 2018 22:46:19 GMT ashleyscfc said:

Relegation to the championship could cost the club £100m, the local area even more. On top of that hundreds of jobs both directly connected to the club and in the area. Even worse our local pride will take a massive knock when things just seemed to be turning a corner.

These two men, one head of recruitment and the other the man who appointed him have presided over this mess. Whilst being overseen and trusted by a board seemingly sleep at the wheel.

I fully appreciate and accept that Tony Scholes is no chief scout, he has no footballing experience to speak of in the game. However after many statements from the club that "only the manager signs players", we have seen with the signings of Bauer and Ndiaye that this is not strictly true. In terms of quality of player bought in he is not to blame. He is however responsible for the man he hired to do that side of the work. They have both failed on numerous occasions.

Tony Scholes however is in charge of how budgets are used, and as head of “running” of the club, he oversees all aspects including setting the standards of what the club is and means to those affected by it.

Yet again tonight we have Jesé in the papers with reports he’s out on the piss in Spain, not really spending time with his child and the Stoke City mole John Percy has another exclusive again about lack of standards and care from stoke city footballers with no official line from the club.

What is our press department doing?
Why does nobody at the top of our club appear to have a grip of this situation?
Why have we had bad press after bad press when we are in a relegation battle for week after week?

Why is Tony Scholes and the board not setting the standards for what is expected of players and Staff? Regardless of who is manager? Why is it not intrinsically drummed in to players what it means to play for this club? What it means to the area and why is that respect for the club instilled into them from day one? Why does it appear it has taken a new manager to come in to install discipline into this squad and give the club direction? It is clear we need more successful "footballing people" at the top of the club to sort this mess out and people with proven track records of success. Especially recruitment.


The whole situation reeks of a rudderless ship that has already hit the iceberg and I'm afraid the club management were willingly asleep at the wheel.

Since Cartwright has come in I dare say his hit rate has been less that 50% on signings. Scholes and he have presided over::
- Berahino fiasco - A player with a known chequered past and now clearly spending far over the odds
- Imbula - A player with the wrong 'attitude' from the start, little grasp of English. Another player who was clearly the wrong fit for the club
- Agudelo - What happened there?!
- Wimmer - A player with an astronomical fee but no quality to show for it. Another time Spurs have had our pants down.
- Palacios - A make way for the crouch deal with little pay off
- Jese - Ambition...say no more
- Moting - A free transfer replacing your best player who kept us in the league must be great for a CEO when it comes off, but when it does you pay the price
- The late signing of Bruno - Seemingly a self sabotage mission to mess up the start of the season and what was turning into the most stable centre back partnership we'd had in years for what?
- Letting Bardsley go for Johnson
- Extended contracts for Ireland Affellay? Why?
- John Guidetti, Texiera, Sidwell, Van Ginkel, Jamie Ness, Edu, Shea, Bony - All failures
- The failure to sign a striker of good enough quality since 2012


Its nothing short of a complete shambles and shows how without a strong manager we are a vacant of any identity as a club as it is not being set by the board at all.

We have heard about 'self sustainability' and wanting to produce more academy players and yet we have had a revolving door of academy directors and seemingly no pragmatic approach to put things right apart from keeping talking about it and hoping it becomes true. Im sure Peter Coates would love for stoke to follow a Southampton model and sell one or two academy or recruited players for £30m+ every year but we have no track record of being able to do it, and no idea how to start to make that happen. The academy and scouting team is not up to it and simply wishing it would happen gets us in the situation we have now. Simply buying good foreign players for the U23 squad or an off the shelf Coever training scheme won't cut it.

Not only that but hoping to do that would mean the club have an ongoing identity of both the club they are, the type of players they want to recruit and the type of football we want to play. And I have seen nothing to suggest we have a clue?! We have no identity, no 'stoke way'. For example, even in the championship the Brighton academy philosophy was "Brighton want to play and attractive brand of possession football with a winning mentality throughout their teams. We therefore recognise the need for all players to become skilled and confident technicians who enjoy and are comfortable on possession. Whilst developing a real game understanding"

What do we stand for? Apart from a trying to get in a bunch of failed mercenaries that nobody else wants? Name the number of times stoke bought a successful recognised premier league player who was wanted by other clubs? Allen? Crouch?

Yes the community aspects of the club have expanded but anyone who has any day to day interaction with the club know that is not a well run ship. From match day experience, the car parks, ticket office, the PA system, communication from the club, marketing. The club have done lots of great things in recent history such as the ticket price freezes, away fan travel, supporters council etc but I don't think this is enough to cover the ongoing clusterfuck that is Stoke City FC at the moment. The former management team staff still being at the club, failed signings, bad press.

These problems are not from recent times and will take a lot of tough honesty and pragmatism from the club to put right. Change must happen.

As fans I think we need to put pressure on them to make sure they do.

Is there any way at all possible that we can get this sent to the club and ask for some kind of public response to it?

It's about time someone within the higher echelons of the clubs came out and spoke publicly about what has been going on for the last two years and why it has been such a shit show.

"What's all the fuss about"

[superheroantonius]

A carto job interview goes like this...

Carto: would you say, you have any special qualities?

Wimmer: i can eat gluten

Carto: wow!! Thats so cool!!! you are in. Have 18 million quid


It hasn't worked to date

And its not going to :-(

[johnnysoul60]

i hope thay learn and put it right .

I'm not sure we will hear anything about it but hope we see evidence

As for Individuals I'd guess Cartwright might be more vulnerable than Scholes but not sure either will go as John Coates semed to set the system up back in TP's day and he wont be off anywhere .

[sheikhmomo]

Apr 12, 2018 8:45:27 GMT davejohnno1 said:

Simon Jordan, unbelievably, has just spoken pretty well of Tony Scholes....

Failed club owner and Chairman, Simon Jordan?


That's like finding out your GP is recommended by Harold Shipman.