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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Jan 13, 2018 21:37:28 GMT
Far far far far too simplistic a viewpoint. It just doesn't work like that. Contracts will only be drawn up once ALL clauses/articles are agreed. IF you believe the written press, there were loose ends to iron out. These loose ends quite likely would need to be agreed in writing as part of the main contract or an annex. Therefore nothing could be prepared or signed until both parties had full agreement...100%. You do not sign a contract of this magnitude and say "don't worry, we'll sort out the other bits once you've left your current position and have come to Stoke...you can trust us, honest!". The problem is too many people think signing a multi million pound contract is like popping your pin in when completing your shopping. These are grown adults who have likely brought a house that takes a minimum of 6 weeks to draw up contracts yet think giving someone a 4 million pound contract is a pinch of salt that takes minutes. It's ridiculous venting based on frustration and disappointment but instead of thinking clearly they have to find someone to blame so of course the club the love and the staff that work there are the enemy. They are children who've been sent to the naughty step and are now sulking and blaming their parents. It laughable. To contractually agree to pay someone or something an agreed amount does only take minutes..... the actual payment can be delivered over a longer time period.
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Post by miggoscfc on Jan 13, 2018 21:40:52 GMT
The problem is too many people think signing a multi million pound contract is like popping your pin in when completing your shopping. These are grown adults who have likely brought a house that takes a minimum of 6 weeks to draw up contracts yet think giving someone a 4 million pound contract is a pinch of salt that takes minutes. It's ridiculous venting based on frustration and disappointment but instead of thinking clearly they have to find someone to blame so of course the club the love and the staff that work there are the enemy. They are children who've been sent to the naughty step and are now sulking and blaming their parents. It laughable. To contractually agree to pay someone or something an agreed amount does only take minutes..... the actual payment can be delivered over a longer time period. Well of course it does but that still needs a contract doesn't it.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Jan 13, 2018 21:43:53 GMT
To contractually agree to pay someone or something an agreed amount does only take minutes..... the actual payment can be delivered over a longer time period. Well of course it does but that still needs a contract doesn't it. Hence my previous about the urgency of getting the contract signed as quickly as possible.. to stop the opportunity to have a change of heart or be used as a bargaining tool to increase their own circumstances with their present employer..... they flew out on a wing and a prayer...
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jan 13, 2018 21:47:42 GMT
Exactly. A woman who hates football, has no affection for stoke city because of how the supporters treated her dad last time and who is using her huge wealth to indulge both her brother and father. Neither peter coates nor Jon coates are hugely successful. What worries me Dave is who is picking what? Brother John picks a younger, progressive manager so Denise will happily release more funds for her brother? Old Daddy picks another old dinosaur so Denise draws up the financial drawbridge again? Isn't that a ridiculously simplistic way of looking at it?
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jan 13, 2018 21:49:25 GMT
It happens more times than you might think. People say yes to jobs then overnight some nagging doubt changes their mind. When that happens its best for both parties the truth was out. If he was worried about seeing his family, ex wife, lifestyle whatever. He wouldn't be pulling up any trees for us. Surely we've seen with Jese, Palacios etc. Getting a contract signed that shouldn't have been costs both parties even more. I'm no big Scholes fan but the package was excellent by all accounts. The guy said yes you can't blame SCFC for this. As for getting rid of TS do we think having no CEO will help negotiations between players and managers in the next two weeks. I don't think so. We just need to move on. The most sensible poster on here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 21:51:40 GMT
What worries me Dave is who is picking what? Brother John picks a younger, progressive manager so Denise will happily release more funds for her brother? Old Daddy picks another old dinosaur so Denise draws up the financial drawbridge again? Isn't that a ridiculously simplistic way of looking at it? What were you expecting, a complete dissertation of football administration?
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Post by sheriffofrockridge on Jan 13, 2018 21:53:24 GMT
Far far far far too simplistic a viewpoint. It just doesn't work like that. Contracts will only be drawn up once ALL clauses/articles are agreed. IF you believe the written press, there were loose ends to iron out. These loose ends quite likely would need to be agreed in writing as part of the main contract or an annex. Therefore nothing could be prepared or signed until both parties had full agreement...100%. You do not sign a contract of this magnitude and say "don't worry, we'll sort out the other bits once you've left your current position and have come to Stoke...you can trust us, honest!". But there is a world of difference to meeting up and sounding someone out and then agreeing contracts. Every contract I have negotiated has never needed a trip out to iron out loose ends. This is done during the initial discussions.. Once completed the contract is sent electronically and signed there and then, especially for someone we really want.... We don’t allow a period to allow them to change their mind, especially with the opportunity to allow us to be used as a bargaining tool for their present employer.... this process has a wing and prayer process written all over it and heads should roll as this has happened too frequently! I don't know your business or the type and size of contracts you negotiate but for sure they're not all handled as you say. I'm also based in Germany and negotiate global contracts based on German, Swiss and UK law. Some of these contracts have taken months to agree and certainly would not have been agreed without face to face discussions with the other parties, close to signature, in order to iron out a few loose ends. In my line of work, how I describe it above is the norm. We only draft the final contract once agreement is reached on all points. Both parties then take some time to review the final contract before signing. I can't see how SCFC has done anything unprofessionally here.
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Post by miggoscfc on Jan 13, 2018 21:54:40 GMT
Well of course it does but that still needs a contract doesn't it. Hence my previous about the urgency of getting the contract signed as quickly as possible.. to stop the opportunity to have a change of heart or be used as a bargaining tool to increase their own circumstances with their present employer..... they flew out on a wing and a prayer... Yes but you can't magic it up out of thin air it may have taken 12-24 hrs to draw up and the solicitors to go over the intricate detail if he changes his mind what can you do ? He may have changed his mind 20 minutes later for all we know.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 13, 2018 22:05:40 GMT
Who do you consider to be our owner/s? The ultimate parent company of Stoke City Football Club Limited is bet365 Group Limited. bet365 Group Limited is under the control of Denise Coates CBE and her family. Therefore I consider it to be the Coates Family. Why do you ask? I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 13, 2018 22:09:04 GMT
The ultimate parent company of Stoke City Football Club Limited is bet365 Group Limited. bet365 Group Limited is under the control of Denise Coates CBE and her family. Therefore I consider it to be the Coates Family. Why do you ask? I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not. The arrogance they've shown over this whole debacle (starting in May) has been astounding.
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Post by miggoscfc on Jan 13, 2018 22:09:55 GMT
The ultimate parent company of Stoke City Football Club Limited is bet365 Group Limited. bet365 Group Limited is under the control of Denise Coates CBE and her family. Therefore I consider it to be the Coates Family. Why do you ask? I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not. Absolute horseshit. Peter has guided Denise from the minute he funded the start of Bet365 by selling his bookies and catering company and has advised her every step of the way. Yes it was her idea to start an online book maker but without Peter guiding her every step along the way (yes I meant it) then Bet365 would not be the company it is today.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 13, 2018 22:11:45 GMT
The ultimate parent company of Stoke City Football Club Limited is bet365 Group Limited. bet365 Group Limited is under the control of Denise Coates CBE and her family. Therefore I consider it to be the Coates Family. Why do you ask? I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not. Bang on the money Dave
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 13, 2018 22:12:18 GMT
I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not. Absolute horseshit. Peter has guided Denise from the minute he funded the start of Bet365 by selling his bookies and catering company and has advised her every step of the way. Yes it was her idea to start an online book maker but without Peter guiding her every step along the way (yes I meant it) then Bet365 would not be the company it is today. Peter coates himself has said that the closure of provincial racing stores and the move to online business was all the brainchild of his daughter.
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Post by ibby on Jan 13, 2018 22:14:22 GMT
Tony Scholes did his best, getting Flores in, and was let down by him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 22:15:40 GMT
I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not. Absolute horseshit. Peter has guided Denise from the minute he funded the start of Bet365 by selling his bookies and catering company and has advised her every step of the way. Yes it was her idea to start an online book maker but without Peter guiding her every step along the way (yes I meant it) then Bet365 would not be the company it is today. Wrong on so many levels. PC has openly admitted that Bet365 was DC’s idea entirely and she has been the driving force behind it.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 13, 2018 22:19:32 GMT
The ultimate parent company of Stoke City Football Club Limited is bet365 Group Limited. bet365 Group Limited is under the control of Denise Coates CBE and her family. Therefore I consider it to be the Coates Family. Why do you ask? I asked because you described them as hugely successful. I see Denise coates as being a hugely successful business woman who is indulging her far less successful father and silver spoon brother. It's their love she is funding rather than her own. That may go someway to explaining why incompetence and an aversion to change is the order of the day at stoke city. How else do you explain that but for premier league money our commercial revenues are pretty much unchanged in 10 years? Lazy, complacent, incompetent and ridiculously arrogant are befitting descriptions of those that occupy the positions of power at stoke city and Tony scholes is right there at the heart of it all. A superb accountant he may be but a charismatic and infectious leader he most certainly is not. Bang on the money, i've been saying it for years.
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Jan 13, 2018 22:30:24 GMT
A guy who I see at kids football seen Scholes at a business function n describe fuller as a “genius “ that’s as how far Is football knowledge goes ,I loved fuller but he was know messi or Ronaldo Scholes In! He has gone up 200-fold in my estimation! Go Tony Go Tony, job for life!!
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Post by walton corner on Jan 13, 2018 22:33:02 GMT
If Scholes organised a free piss up,everyone would go home sober. Nope I was pissed in Hamburg 😀
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 13, 2018 22:37:50 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it.
I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO.
I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know.
I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you.
Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets.
Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time.
But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures.
In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players.
I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for.
As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc
We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing.
The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do.
It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke !
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Post by miggoscfc on Jan 13, 2018 22:41:50 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it. I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO. I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know. I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you. Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets. Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time. But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures. In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players. I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for. As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing. The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do. It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke ! The best post placed on the oatcake in years.
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Post by chayzenbacon on Jan 13, 2018 22:48:19 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it. I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO. I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know. I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you. Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets. Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time. But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures. In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players. I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for. As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing. The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do. It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke ! The best post placed on the oatcake in years. Nah, there was a hundred better on tge brown wings thread.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 13, 2018 22:51:34 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it. I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO. I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know. I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you. Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets. Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time. But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures. In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players. I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for. As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing. The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do. It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke ! The best post placed on the oatcake in years. Very sensible but we’re in a hell of a mess because of some bad calls / decisions and it can’t all be down to bad luck. Bad signings Low spending Bad decision re keeping Hughes to long Not addressing the manager vacancy Not addressing glaring weaknesses in the first 11. RB CM Now don’t get me wrong we all make mistakes but there’s been a lot recently and someone has to be accountable. That said will always get behind the lads and as you say at least we’ve got sensible owners.
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Post by swampySCFC on Jan 13, 2018 22:52:22 GMT
Im blaming Hughes. FFS you would have thought he would have introduced the bloke to Stoke.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 13, 2018 22:55:54 GMT
Malcolm totally your prerogative my view is the polar opposite
- The club failed to make a decision to Back or invest last summer or act in the autumn
- The club had failed consistently failed to land first choice targets despite some being at Clayton wood - The club had constantly under invested and embarked on a badly executed self sufficiency plan with loans and free transfers - Where we have invested it’s been done badly imbula , Wimmer , berahino - we’ve sold our best assets arguably cheaply , but haven’t replaced them for sure - Gate receipts are down - Our PR is a nightmare Jesse true ambition the ultimate own goal - we’ve denied within the last month there is any issue - we’ve put £100m revenue at mortal risk under the banner of self sufficiency - my personal experience contrary to yours is he he is arrogant enough to completely ignore any customer big or small .
All has happened on his watch as the clubs senior executive paid circa £1m a year as the most senior custodian of the club he is accountable for our current mess and is the root cause of our current position , the job is completely beyond him , we out grew him years ago and the only thing now is to remove him before he does any greater damage .
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 13, 2018 22:56:11 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it. I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO. I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know. I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you. Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets. Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time. But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures. In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players. I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for. As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing. The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do. It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke ! So as you say then, he had the power to seal it, excellent.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 13, 2018 22:59:07 GMT
The board have been living on past glories for far too long and need to up their game and spend the money that is needed. That's the crux of where we are. It's all down to poor management at the top. They got us here and they'll sure as shit take us back down if they don't change.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 23:14:56 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it. I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO. I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know. I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you. Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets. Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time. But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures. In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players. I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for. As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing. The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do. It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke ! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
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Post by claytonscrubs on Jan 13, 2018 23:19:15 GMT
Tony Scholes did his best, getting Flores in, and was let down by him. Stop telling the truth ibby....We all know Flores didn’t come because he didn’t like the look of Scholes. Allegedly calling him a “.Comadreja Cara”. Shocking behaviour ! 😏
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Post by claytonscrubs on Jan 13, 2018 23:22:05 GMT
Personally I have a rule in football - indeed in life generally - not to take strong positions unless you are both sure of all the facts, and sure of the outcome you are trying to achieve i.e whether that outcome will actually be helped by what you say, and the way that you say it. I may be in a minority on here - possibly even a minority of one - but I think that as well as the large amount of personal abuse in this thread, which on a public message board may well be counter-productive, there is a distinct lack of evidence in support of many of the things which are being said about the Stoke CEO. I don't think that anyone on here knows even a fraction of the truth about what has gone on with the negotiations with our managerial targets.One thing seems clear namely that the Flores negotiations were a complex matter involving not just salary and length of contract, but a move of country; the employment of other staff; personal family circumstances; contract compensation etc etc etc. I have seen no evidence to support, let alone prove, that the breakdown was entirely, or even in part, the fault of the CEO. It might have been, but it might not have been. None of us know. I think that Bayern's assumption that he because he is the CEO and a Director, that he had the authority to seal the deal, is, with respect, naive. He will have had the authority given to him by the Chairman on behalf of the owners. No less but certainly no more than that. That's where the power lies and that's how it works. In any case, if for whatever reason, the other party change their mind on whether they want a deal, all the authority in the world won't help you. Similarly with the comments about unspecified 'countless other examples' of failure to get deals over the line. Most prospective player deals also involve complex financial and contract negotiations with agents having a central role and usually strong competition with other clubs. I think nearly all clubs only land a minority of their targets. Is our record really that bad ? Certainly there have been some recent poor outcomes, Imbulla being perhaps the most spectacular example. Wimmer looks over-priced, but IMO is not nearly as poor as some claim; Jesse didn't work out, neither so far has Berahino, although if you recall many were praising his acquisition at the time. But in fairness criticism of the failures has to be balanced by the successes in getting very good players here. When Arnie, Shaq and Bojan were destroying Man City was the club's recruitment team being praised ? It isn't the CEO's fault that Arnie walked. Bojan's scintillating form was ruined by his injury. Supporters of other clubs ask me how on earth Stoke have managed to get as good a player as Shaq. N'Zonzi, Butland, Allen, Chupo, Ramandan are all IMO other examples of good captures. In short, I think it's a mixed picture, as I think it is at most PL clubs - the difference being that we don't tend to notice the transfer failures of other clubs because they aren't visible. I have never met Mark Cartwright, let alone looked at how he and his team do their job, so I can't comment on how good he is or isn't. One thing I am sure of is that the CEO is not involved in the football judgements on players. I have met Tony Scholes and have negotiated/discussed non-on-field matters with him. I can only take as I have found, and I have found him to be clear in his positions but willing to listen, and supportive on many issue which have been important to supporters, even though we have disagreed on some issues. For example, I know that he has been a consistent leading advocate at PL meetings for using PL money to help away fans, and we had first the away fans initiative, and our free coach travel which the club have continued after the initaive was replaced by the £30 away ticket cap across the Board, which TS and Stoke City supported. And of course we have had a 10-year freeze on home prices under his tenure. I am not in a position to comment on what he's like to work for. As for the club being a shambles under its present ownership and leadership, I think being involved in the national supporters movement gives me a wider perspective, but if you want to understand what bad ownership and leadership is really like, I'll introduce you to fans of Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Coventry, Charlton, Hull, Pompey, Wimbledon, Leyton etc etc etc etc We have local ownership with a local Chairman who is a lifelong supporter, understands english football and is widely respected within it as I know from the FA Council. Do not underestimate the value of those things. If the Coates family sold up and we had foreign ownership and a new CEO, for example I personally wouldn't put any money on our current pricing levels continuing. The margins in the PL are incredibly small. If the 20 richest people in the world poured their wealth into the 20 PL clubs, and appointed the 20 best managers in the world, 3 of them would still be relegated and 1 would still come bottom. There are 19 other clubs, sets of supporters, owners, and managers who want the same as we do. It's tough and it's hard. We're not in a good place tonight but in my view that's all the more reason for us to stick together and support the team, starting on Monday, and the new manager whoever he is. We can get out of this. Come on Stoke ! Brilliant post mate...👍
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Post by maliciousdamage on Jan 13, 2018 23:25:24 GMT
This correct however if he's definitely for it and then he met to sign the deal somewhere he didn't actually sign and I'd imagine that 24 hrs period gave Espanyol the chance to bend his ear back to them if he'd have been asked to sign the deal in the meeting and the compo money paid to Espanyol they would!d have immediately had to look at other options. We'll never know the real reason why he backed out but on Thurs why was it SO nailed on he was signing. For me the mistake was not having him sign at the face to face and be got turned end of What is there to sign if we were still negotiating, they wouldn't have a contract written up by then. My understanding was initial discussions had been taken before the face to face and that was to make the final offering and get the deal done why else would we fly to Barcelona? Unless Tony fancied a nice break!!
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